Forza 3 vs GT5P Physics: Objective Analysis

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5: Prologue' started by MowTin, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. MowTin

    MowTin

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    Apples to Apples comparison of GT5:p vs. Forza 3 Physics


    Introduction

    There is this perpetual debate about what game has better "physics" Forza or GT5 Prologue. This debate extends to all racing games and simulations.
    Instead of making objective statements that can be verified most just make subjective statements like, "The physics in that game sucks." Even professional reviews seldom make objective statements about the handling physics.

    Since I own both Forza 3 and GT5:p and have wheels for both I decided to attempt an OBJECTIVE comparisson of the car handling models in each game.

    Testing Methodology

    Hardware:
    XBOX 360 Elite with MS Wireless FFB Wheel
    PS3 with Logitech DFP

    All assists off except ABS.
    Cockpit view.
    Hotlaps (no AI)


    Tracks: Sazuka Cicruit
    Cars:
    RWD: Ferrari 599
    Mid Engine RWD: Ferrari F430
    AWD: Mitsubishi Evo X
    FWD: Ford Focus ST


    Acceleration

    Simple standing start test. Accelerating from zero.
    Forza 3: Had to accelerate more carefully to avoid wheel spin. Wheel shakes with wheel spin.
    GT5P: Cars seem to have little wheel spin. No touch need for a good start. No force feedback.

    Comment: Neither game simulated torque steering (where car pulls to one side during full acceleration) but at least Forza 3 had good wheel spin.

    Winner: Forza 3

    Braking

    Forza 3: Braking was extremely sensitive. Very difficult to achieve anything less that full brake.
    GT5P: Broader range of braking inputs.

    Winner: GT5P

    On Throttle Oversteer

    Forza 3: Ferrari 599 failed to oversteer when throttle was mashed on corners. When it did oversteer it was very easy to catch and correct.
    GT5P: Ferrari 599 easily oversteers unless throttle is applied gently at low gears.

    Comment: Mashing the throttle very rarely could unsettle the cars in Forza 3.
    Including the high end race cars. Extremely unrealistic behavior.

    Winner: GT5P

    Lift-Off Throttle Oversteer

    Forza 3: Ferrari F430 had no detectable lift-off oversteer. Did not show any signs of being a mid engine car.
    GT5P: Suddenly lifting off throttle while turning hard led to slight oversteer on the wide turns in Sazuka.

    Winner GT5P


    Understeer

    Forza 3 and GT5P behave identically during understeer. Ford Focus ST in both games behaved identically. Only difference was sliding was much better in Forza 3.

    Comment: Tire sounds were more natural and convincing in Forza 3. I don't believe this is a subjective statement. The way the cars slide on tires was far more true to life than GT5P.

    Winner: Forza 3

    Steering

    Forza 3: When wildly oscillating steering back and forth responded too suddenly. There was little to no sense of inertia. Was difficult to cause a crash by oscillating the wheel back and forth on straights.
    GT5P: Overall steering was smoother and car behaved like a car with weight. Was easier to induce a crash when oscillating steering wheel.

    Comment: Steering was very twitchy in Forza 3. This was maybe the worst aspect of the game. Is the MS Wheel the cause?

    Winner GT5P

    Tracks

    Comment: Sazuka had far more detail in Forza 3. It wasn't even close. But most other tracks in Forza 3 did not have the same level of detail.

    Winner: Forza 3.

    Complaint: To prevent players from cutting the track Forza has these sticky patches that supernaturally bring your car to a dead stop. It kills the immersion when it happens. In GT5 you're prevented from accelerating for a few seconds. The GT5 system is much better than those supernatural sticky patches.


    Conclusion

    The handing model in GT5P does a much better job of representing oversteer in high horsepower cars. The more powerful the car the more dramatic the difference. The lack of any lift-off oversteer in the F430 was a bit surprising. The steering was also another area where Forza 3 came up short. Reckless steering input simply did not unsettle the car like you would expect.

    Overall, I should add that Forza 3 has advantages in damage and tire wear and parts customizations. Overall if you consider customizations and damage and online play Forza 3 is the better game. However, when it comes to car handling physics alone GT5P is more realistic. It's difficult to imagine an objective person testing same cars and tracks coming to a different conclusion.

    I must also point out that the MS Wireless wheel compares very poorly to the Logitech DFP. Given that, in the average person's price range, the MS wheel is the ONLY viable option this must be counted as a shortcoming of Forza 3.
     
  2. crazytortise

    crazytortise

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    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  3. zodac spear

    zodac spear

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    GT5 is having a brand new physics system?
     
  4. the Interceptor

    the Interceptor Premium

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    I think this actually is fair, since it is an unbiased interpretation of specific, comparable situations in both games. GT5 will likely be different than Prologue, but that was never the question here. This is a good thread for people seeking information about the currently available versions of the two franchises.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
  5. balang_479

    balang_479

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    I Hope you were using N3s or something to simulate stock tires.
     
  6. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    Excellent review regarding he physics. Glad someone else agrees with what I found with both games...especially the lack of lift throttle oversteer in FM3 :tdown: The sound quality is one thing I found to be exceptionally better in FM3 compared to Prolouge though. But I've already put Forza 3 away after playing for only one day and am back to Prolouge due to the simplicity of the psychics in FM3...just isn't nearly realistic, challenging, or rewarding enough.
     
  7. James2009

    James2009

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    As someone who hasn't played Forza, I'm wondering about the sliding (in MowTin's section about understeer) feeling more realistic in Forza. Was it meant more in terms of just audio, or more? What's the car doing that doesn't happen in GT5P?

    Also, the lack of really easily attainable wheelspin with total loss of rear-end grip at low/stationary speeds in the GT series has always been a stand out quirk in my mind. For instance - its been impossible to do a proper doughnut (rotating the car around the inside front wheel). Is it possible in Forza 3?
     
  8. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    ...
     
  9. James2009

    James2009

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    Cheers timeattack07gt, its something I always hope PD will improve but never do! I think its partly what contributes to GT's smooth easily driftable physics - nothing too sudden is ever going to happen in terms of cars snapping in and out of lateral grip. I think it actually fits in with Kaz's idea of showing the cars move gracefully, showing them cornering and sliding more ideally/beautifully than in reality. I'm not actually convinced Kaz strictly wants to make a simulator in that sense.
     
  10. MowTin

    MowTin

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    It's mostly audio. The sound is much more like rubber slidding on tarmac. Also it's not a smooth slide like the friction between two smooth surfaces. It's like this sticky slide with some jerkiness to it. But I'll take a second look. It could be just the sound that is tricking the brain.

    Hmm...I never tested donuts. I'll do that when I get a chance. Other than that there was absolutely no difference in low speed physics from my tests. I was surprised because like you I perceived they were better in Forza 3 but when I actually tried to unsettle the cars both games behaved identically.

    I would guess that since the understeer sound is so much better in Forza 3 and given that low speed cars are almost all FWD that do nothing but understeer that's why it seems like the low speed physics are better.

    Another reason the low speed physics seem better is because of wheel spin from standing starts.

    But to be honest NFS:Shift does a better job in this area than both of these games because it provides torque oversteer during standing starts and the sound and sense of rubber on road is also better.


    Again, overall I was really shocked at how badly FM3 did considering the guys at inside sim racing tv reviewed FM2 vs GT5P and said the physics were better in FM2. They gave no specifics about what was better or worse in each game. Also their review of FM3 was so full of praise for the physics that I went out and bought this game plus wheel.

    The funny thing is before I actually did these tests car by car I had the impression that FM3 physics were better. I was really surprised by the results.

    Please feel free to suggest more tests.
     
  11. Gejost

    Gejost

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    Nice comparison MowTin.

    So both games have their ups and downs but overall GT5P has the better physics.

    But what have the track details to do with physics? Isn't that a graphics comparison? :p
     
  12. GTP_rpm

    GTP_rpm Premium

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    Track physics is very important, IMO.

    Curbs should have an affect on the cars, bumps in braking zones should be there, cambers should affect the cars grip more etc...not a visual detail at all.
     
  13. Gejost

    Gejost

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    I agree, that's very important.

    So what he meant with track details was the physical details... I get it.
     
  14. RedSuinit

    RedSuinit Premium

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    Excellent, unbiased comparison. +rep.
     
  15. 2of9

    2of9

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    great comparison. I remember playing the first Forza and you could totally tell the difference in physics from that and GT4. I do remember that the customization system in Forza is quite unique compared to GT5P and it still is till this day. I mean, c'mon, K20 Civic in Forza!? LOL. anyways, good comp and always great to see those 2 great racing GAMES go at it.
     
  16. IsmokeGT

    IsmokeGT (Banned)

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    Hilarity!
    One guy whose opinion I trust. This is settled, since FM3 isnt as good as GT5P, so there is NO WAY FM3 will even compare to GT5.

    A big :tup: to TA for that sweet comment.

    @ redsuinit- 700pp HSR= great close racing practice!
     
  17. jedaye

    jedaye

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    Your test isn't exactly fair. You are comparing an older, unfinished game with a brand new, and full game.

    GT5 has an entirely new physics system so I'm sure GT5 will be way better that Forza 3 in every physics category
     
  18. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    Take it for what it's worth! That's all we have to compare to atm. He's doing a favour by informing the community of the differences...no need to get butt hurt because Prologue didn't win every category. That's what fanboys do (but it's not fair to compare this or that...wah, wah, wah!)

    If anything this makes GT5 look even more promising than FM3 once it is released next year...because GT5 will most definitely shiet on FM3, especially if you are even somewhat into realism and physics. This coming from someone who has both Prologue and Forza 3 :tup:
     
  19. Cocomoto

    Cocomoto

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    They are saying that the new physics in GT5 Demo let the game easier, i hope the lift0off oversteer and all those things wont desapear or get too much reduced and all the advantage that Prologue has will dessapear, and the fun side of the game...
     
  20. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    Quite untrue. Try using the ACR, DBR9, FXX, ZR1, or the Ford GT straight out full throttle off the line and tell me if you continue to go in a straight line.

    I might be confusing torque steering with something else, I don't know, it's going on 1 and I'm sleepy...so excuse the fail if the fail was indeed....a fail. :lol:
     
  21. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    Well Kaz also mentioned in the same breath that it would be more realistic as well. I think by easier he means that there will be more feel to the game, and driving at the limit will be a bit easier (less like driving on ice at times...which I think is due to the rock hard tire pressures which are very unforgiving to aggressive inputs).

    I also believe that once the car does pass over the limit of adhesion in GT5, that the cars will be a bit harder to save though, as you will have to be much more precise with your steering inputs like in real life. In Prologue you can really saw at the wheel imprecisely to catch a oversteer moment...which doesn't demonstrate such a situation in real life well at all. And likely gives most people way too much confidence to catch a slide at triple digits in real life :lol:


    Well torque steer by definition only happens in a FWD car, when the front tires are turned while accelerating out of a corner. The engines torque transferring through the front turning wheels will cause the car and steering wheel to want to pull straight...hence the name "torque steer". When you get torque steer in real life it also takes a firmer grip on the steering wheel to prevent it from returning to a lesser steering angle...some FWD cars are worse than others.

    I'm not so sure this is is what he was referring to though. As in some ways it sounds as if he is talking about what you brought up...which surely does happen in the game as you mentioned - when the cars differential sends more torque to one drive wheel than the other, causing the car to get sideways during straightline acceleration, due to slight imperfections in the road, L/R weight balance, etc.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  22. Lain

    Lain Premium

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    Interesting read. :tup:
     
  23. myke6699

    myke6699

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    The only problem with FM3 version of Suzuka is that for most part it's not exactly the same track.

    Here's the real Suzuka:

    [YOUTUBEHD]2hVAbzj15TE[/YOUTUBEHD]

    Here's the one from FM3:

    [YOUTUBEHD]j44e2IhBsXU[/YOUTUBEHD]

    And Prologue:

    [YOUTUBEHD]6L1QZ1OFEQI[/YOUTUBEHD]

    What's missing or different in FM3: I find the "S" section is quite loose and the ascend right off the first turn (which culminate with the Gyaku Bank) isn't quite as noticeable as is the ascend on the Gyaku Bank. As with the "S" section the Dunlop isn't as tight and the whole section, straight onto Degner seem a bit stretched out. The dip right in the middle of the 200R section is almost missing in the FM3 version. The last is that the descend from the chicane to the finish line is again not as apparent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2009
  24. niky

    niky Moderator

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    Why not do a measurement of the track? It would be interesting to see if this is another "Nurburgring" moment, and if Turn 10 has altered the track layout to facilitate online racing better.
     
  25. Cayman

    Cayman

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    I have been playing GT5 Prolouge with the G25 wheel for about a year now. I use Pro physics. A few days ago I purchased a Xbox 360 and Forza 3 with the Microsoft Wireless wheel, partly due to the positive reviews by Inside Sim Racing on youtube. Here is my view on Forza.
    The good - It was nice to see some different tracks. There are some really nice ones in Forza. I particularly enjoyed Maple Valley Short course due to some ineresting elevation changes and Fujimi Kaido. (This one is really spectacular, a Japanese mountain pass or Tōge) Visually the tracks were stunning. The telemetary feature is very cool. Very educational to see the grip levels of all 4 wheels in real time, as you corner, brake and go over undulations in the track. The cars make good sounds, both engine and tires.
    Now the bad - The cars drove too similarly. I switched from a Cayman to a 911 Turbo to a Lexus IS 350, and besides the different acceleration the cars handeled very similarly when it came to body roll, steering feedback, and cornering abilities. You could tell by the feel if you were driving a FWD car of a RWD car, but even that wasn't very pronounced.
    The cars are easy to drive. If one follows the proper racing line, there are no corrections or inputs that have to be made mid corner. The onset of understeer is very pronounced. Push the front end too hard and the force feedback in the MS wheel turns off, and the wheel goes limp in your hands - say hello to understeer. Understeer in GT5 happends a whole lot more gradually, it is not an on/off thing like Forza. Unless I was driving a 600 HP lightweigh race car, oversteer was never a problem. In fact I didn't spin a production car at all.
    To me Forza does not have the driver involvment, or steering feel, that GT5 prolouge has. The cars are much easier to drive in Forza that GT5 prolouge (set to Pro physics.)
    Forza 3 has shown me what I love about GT5 prolouge. Every car feels different, with different understeer/oversteer characteristics, suspension feel, steering feel. You can almost feel what the suspension is doing, for exapmple the Mercedes Sl 55 AMG feels like an extremely stiff car. The Mustang is an undesteery pig. I could go on and on.... GT5 PG is much harder to drive. After Forza I almost have to re-learn to drive, and was reminded of this by some spin-outs.
    The verdict.... I am RETURNING XBOX 360 to the store and selling my copy of Forza 3. I will be patiently awaiting GT5. I am also considering getting into iRAcing.
     
  26. jonathansp

    jonathansp

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    I was just doing doughnuts around the front left wheel in the mines skyline.
     
  27. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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    I'm quite surprised at the lack of wheelspin off the line in prologue, even if the RWD cars, I found myself regulating the throttle like i had to in GT4 but after reading this and then trying it out, i don't have to, its near full throttle and theres so much traction off the line its unbelievable. I just assumed the traction was similar to the traction out of corners, as in not much of it.

    That is one area GT5 definetly needs to improve in, standing starts are just so effortless in GT5P. In GT4 i wouldn't be full throttle until 3rd gear in quite a lot of the cars from a standing start, but on prologue, your on full throttle halfway through first gear and its just so easy.
     
  28. niky

    niky Moderator

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    ??? Standard or Pro? In the pro-physics online races, when you're given a standing start, you'd better have the in-race driving aid toggles mapped, as TCS is necessary to get a good jump off the line.

    *cough... not that I'd ever resort to such a thing... *cough.
     
  29. The Outlaw

    The Outlaw Premium

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    Ugh...thanks for speaking for everyone else :lol: :tdown:

    Nice review :tup: I'm also desperately looking to getting into iRacing once I get a gaming PC...hopefully sometime very soon :)
     
  30. Kryz11

    Kryz11 Premium

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    I was just experimenting with FM3, I hate that Lotus Elise or any other MR car or RR does not lift overseer on high speed turns. It happens in real life, and it happens in Gran Turismo Prologue.