Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[hennessey86]

Using braking techniques to go faster in real life or virtual world is common, techniques such as trail braking. No one is saying it is perfect but at least it encourages at this early stage to try techniques to go faster that you might try in real life.

However from your previous posts about this matter, I think you will have a problem with probably every game that requires you to go fast for a prize, as there will something for you to blame about going slower than the faster people and that will never help you go faster.
?

I don't mind being beaten by a better driver, I m not the fastest out there I will fully admit that. But when I see people cheating to get faster times it annoys me, also I have never seen a touring car driver, an f1 driver, a dtm driver etc trail break to get faster times. Show me an example of a professional racing driver using trail breaking to get faster lap times and I will hold my hands up and Apologise.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I don't mind being beaten by a better driver, I m not the fastest out there I will fully admit that. But when I see people cheating to get faster times it annoys me, also I have never seen a touring car driver, an f1 driver, a dtm driver etc trail break to get faster times. Show me an example of a professional racing driver using trail breaking to get faster lap times and I will hold my hands up and Apologise.

It is not cheating though is it but even if it is, driving on limit like that only helps with a few tenths over say 1-2 minute track with car.

All the top drivers do it, car depending of course regarding trail braking. The cameras for onboards in real life don't capture it as well game due to fixed nature. Also top drivers in the world who have a lot of sim usage are generally insanely fast in virtual world. Say for example Fernando Alonso or Felipe Massa, I will be very confident if they did a GT5 time trial, they could top it or get very close to top.

Here is article about technique:
http://www.driftingstreet.com/braking-technique-trail.html

 

[hennessey86]

It is not cheating though is it but even if it is, driving on limit like that only helps with a few tenths over say 1-2 minute track with car.

All the top drivers do it, car depending of course regarding trail braking. The cameras for onboards in real life don't capture it as well game due to fixed nature. Also top drivers in the world who have a lot of sim usage are generally insanely fast in virtual world. Say for example Fernando Alonso or Felipe Massa, I will be very confident if they did a GT5 time trial, they could top it or get very close to top.

Here is article about technique:
http://www.driftingstreet.com/braking-technique-trail.html

So how is it when vettel raced the winner of the recent red bull competition held at good wood he ge got nailed by the winner. I asked for an example of a driver using trail braking and you gave another subject avoiding excuse. This is getting way off topic now so I'm going to leave it there. As for fixed cameras that is a lame excuse.

 

[Ealirendur]

I don't mind being beaten by a better driver, I m not the fastest out there I will fully admit that. But when I see people cheating to get faster times it annoys me, also I have never seen a touring car driver, an f1 driver, a dtm driver etc trail break to get faster times. Show me an example of a professional racing driver using trail breaking to get faster lap times and I will hold my hands up and Apologise.

I have no idea how you can think trail braking is cheating - unless you mean track cutting?

"Drivers must not release the brake pedal in any manner deemed too clever or efficient" - uh, no. You can see heel-toe on camera in the relevant disciplines, but trail braking would be harder to spot. You'd really need telemetry from several drivers.

 

[Greycap]

I asked for an example of a driver using trail braking and you gave another subject avoiding excuse.

Every time you see a F1 driver locking the inside front wheel while turning towards the apex he's trail braking. Every time you see a WRC driver turning in with brake lights on he's trail braking. Actually the WRC example can be applied to any car that has brake lights. And yes, it happens a lot.

 

[thelvynau]

If its something race drivers do how can it be cheating?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

So how is it when vettel raced the winner of the recent red bull competition held at good wood he ge got nailed by the winner. I asked for an example of a driver using trail braking and you gave another subject avoiding excuse. This is getting way off topic now so I'm going to leave it there. As for fixed cameras that is a lame excuse.

Vettel won if I remember correctly but he had a few more laps than Red Bull's Pro Racing gamer. It was made out as a draw but then later on it was said to be a loss or something along the lines by Horner but I think Vettel actually won IIRC going by lap times. Vettel said himself you need to have a bit more time to get your eye in or something like that. Impressive to see him at a reasonable pace after few laps on probably a new steering wheel for him driving an extreme car. This is all off memory so words might not be 100% right but I think that was close to what was said and happened.

I gave an example through link describing it, not an excuse. I also posted a link yesterday about this matter: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20121125/f1/121129931

Depends on how much you value the opinion of current F1 WDC if you ain't going to believe me.

Camera angles / movement is a valid reason I feel, depending on view in-game, behaviour of car will look a bit different. Same goes for real life but you don't get the views you get in the game, something like chase cam in general. I am not expecting GT to mimic reality perfectly at the moment or even 20 years down the line, you will get a bit more movement in some cars and a bit less in other cars than you should and conditions should change dynamically if like real life. GT5 does not have tyre temperature effect yet such as cold tyres or seriously overheated tyres feeling. Hopefully next instalment gets that as it adds a lot to driving.

If its something race drivers do how can it be cheating?

That is because they are faster than people who call it cheating .

 

[Scaff]

Say going from 40mph to 20mph in about one second due to optimal slip angle being exceeded, is that not enough of a drop?

What car and corner? What tyres?

I don't mind being beaten by a better driver, I m not the fastest out there I will fully admit that. But when I see people cheating to get faster times it annoys me, also I have never seen a touring car driver, an f1 driver, a dtm driver etc trail break to get faster times. Show me an example of a professional racing driver using trail breaking to get faster lap times and I will hold my hands up and Apologise.

Trail Braking is a perfectly normal driving technique, used by the vast majority (but not all) of race drivers at all levels.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

What car and corner? What tyres?

Shelby Cobra 427 with stock tyres in game which I think are Sports Hards around say Chicago at Top Gear Test Track.

 

[Scaff]

Shelby Cobra 427 with stock tyres in game which I think are Sports Hards around say Chicago at Top Gear Test Track.

I will see if I can give it a go tonight, its a car I've taken around the track a lot and certainly speed drops of that degree from tyre scrub alone don't ring any bells.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

BMW Z4 M Coupe with CM tire at Cape Ring South, the 1st and 2nd s bend, the hairpin after that and also the 1st and last corners, almost every turn in the track can scrub off speed when going over the slip angle. I am not sure if the amount is sufficient to be deemed realistic, but I have posted the Drift Bible video link that showed Tsuchiya driving his Kei Office S14 doing fast drift and show drift at Ebisu, the speed indicator on the video clearly shown the drop of speed is not much.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I will see if I can give it a go tonight, its a car I've taken around the track a lot and certainly speed drops of that degree from tyre scrub alone don't ring any bells.

There was a bit of throttle used to control car on corner exit. Got a Hammerhead example just through losing speed from tyre scrub due to slip angle exceeding optimal. Speed loss from about 53mph to 33mph in about 1.6 seconds.

Image links:
http://i48.tinypic.com/34eovb9.png
http://i50.tinypic.com/34f04co.png

 

[Scaff]

BMW Z4 M Coupe with CM tire at Cape Ring South, the 1st and 2nd s bend, the hairpin after that and also the 1st and last corners, almost every turn in the track can scrub off speed when going over the slip angle. I am not sure if the amount is sufficient to be deemed realistic, but I have posted the Drift Bible video link that showed Tsuchiya driving his Kei Office S14 doing fast drift and show drift at Ebisu, the speed indicator on the video clearly shown the drop of speed is not much.

With a specific drift car it could well be down to the tyres, quite a lot of development has gone into specific compounds for drifting over the years.

Its also worth mentioning that the tyre itself makes a difference, not just in the case of the the slip angle values, but in the degree of scrub. Slicks will tend to scrub less than road tyres (tread block make a difference) and tyre width and profile can also play a roll in this.

Measuring it accurately is a trick one as well, given that most tyre data doesn't bother extending slip vs lat force graphs below optimum slip values (to be honest why would they).

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I guess so, a game would never be able to account all variables ... the car on the video was on mass produced street tires by the way, if you look at the beginning, Yokohama Grand Prix M7,simple mods, lsd, coil over etc. It varies I think on car to car, suspension tune, LSD and tires fitted.

 

[hennessey86]

Every time you see a F1 driver locking the inside front wheel while turning towards the apex he's trail braking. Every time you see a WRC driver turning in with brake lights on he's trail braking. Actually the WRC example can be applied to any car that has brake lights. And yes, it happens a lot.

That's plain wrong, when an f1 driver locks the inside front wheel it has nothing to do with trail breaking, rallying is another matter all together. I am talking about road racing, I was always told to break in a straight line, there might be a slight bit of trail breaking going on certain cars but not to the extent you see in gt5 and if its such a widely used teqnuique how come I have never seen it used in other sims I have played like iracing, gtr2, project cars etc I have only ever seen it in gt5 but maybe that's because it's so over the top interms of the angles you can reach without losing speed in gt5.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Watch Best Mototing and Hot Version videos on youtube, there many of them, plenty examples of trail braking used on street cars + street tires at race tracks by professional drivers. One example, Mr Nakaya-san aka the professor often trail brake into a corner when he drove Lancer Evos - the rear even stepped out at times and using AYC effectively together to get fastest possible time. Motoharu Kurosawa aka Gan-san Best Motoring video of hotlap at Fuji in the 1999 edition driving Honda NSX Type S Zero, he used trail braking to brake so deep into a corner, it was an awesome lap.

 

[Scaff]

That's plain wrong, when an f1 driver locks the inside front wheel it has nothing to do with trail breaking, rallying is another matter all together. I am talking about road racing, I was always told to break in a straight line, there might be a slight bit of trail breaking going on certain cars but not to the extent you see in gt5 and if its such a widely used teqnuique how come I have never seen it used in other sims I have played like iracing, gtr2, project cars etc I have only ever seen it in gt5 but maybe that's because it's so over the top interms of the angles you can reach without losing speed in gt5.

Trail braking should not involve generating any angle at all in terms of oversteer, in fact one of the points behind trail braking is to avoid oversteer at all costs.

The practice is quite straightforward in its aim, which is to use as much of the tyres grip as is possible, as such as you start turning into the corner you also start baking off the brakes, with the aim to overlap the removal of the brake with the increase of the steering angle, and then once you apex you do start to apply the throttle as you unwind the steering, once again overlapping the two.

Source - http://www.trackdaysdriver.co.uk/how-to/trail-brake.html

Skip Barber's Going Faster dedicates a full seven pages to discussing the technique and its application in all forms of motorsport.

 

[Lock2Lock]

At scaff...
Trail braking is used in many different types of racing. Here in this rally video it is used in under steer and oversteer situations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph_5ZpM9Cqw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Scaff]

At scaff...
Trail braking is used in many different types of racing. Here in this rally video it is used in under steer and oversteer situations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph_5ZpM9Cqw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I don't believe I've said anything to the contrary?

Not sure at all why you feel the need to tell me something I've just said?

If you are on about the use of trail braking to initiate oversteer on a rally stage, please keep in mind that's a totally different use to trail braking on a circuit, and its use on a track was exactly what I was addressing.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I don't believe I've said anything to the contrary?

Not sure at all why you feel the need to tell me something I've just said?

I didn't think you didn't I was just adding to the topic. Sorry if it sounded like I was talking at you wasn't my intention

 

[Scaff]

I didn't think you didn't I was just adding to the topic. Sorry if it sounded like I was talking at you wasn't my intention

Ahh right - OK

The wonderful; world of the 'net and the issue with context. My b ad.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That's plain wrong, when an f1 driver locks the inside front wheel it has nothing to do with trail breaking, rallying is another matter all together. I am talking about road racing, I was always told to break in a straight line, there might be a slight bit of trail breaking going on certain cars but not to the extent you see in gt5 and if its such a widely used teqnuique how come I have never seen it used in other sims I have played like iracing, gtr2, project cars etc I have only ever seen it in gt5 but maybe that's because it's so over the top interms of the angles you can reach without losing speed in gt5.

Braking in straight line technique depends on car and track if it is the fastest way. iRacing have video about braking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwf5CZL4GZM
Other sims you mention should have it, otherwise they are missing out technique that is used in real world.

A bit off-topic but soon as you happy with Project CARS, if you want you can have a go at this TT and see if you can beat my default setup go. Did a few laps ages ago, surprised it took so long for someone to beat with custom setup but I guess it is unusual combo: http://cars-stats.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=72&vehicle=0

I wonder what conclusion you will come up if you attempt TT, if I'm cheating like in GT5 or you beat me because it is fairer game.

 

[Eks]

Hmm.
I dunno. I picked equal.
I like GT5 FEEL of realism.
But the suspension/weight transfer on Forza is beautiful.
I was watching prelude326's XJR13 video and the car never "leaned" to one side when he turned hard.

 

[SuperShouden]

Just wanna say, comparing Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport is like comparing Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption.

There needs to be a forth option there for "They're too different."

That being said, I'm going to be playing a lot of FM4 next week...FM4 and Skyrim...yeah. Rainbow Dash liveried SRT Viper...here I come.

 

[JeremiahTB]

Just wanna say, comparing Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport is like comparing Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption.

There needs to be a forth option there for "They're too different."

That being said, I'm going to be playing a lot of FM4 next week...FM4 and Skyrim...yeah. Rainbow Dash liveried SRT Viper...here I come.

Doesn't Rockstar make both RDR and GTA? That would be like comparing Madden and FIFA. Both made by EA and are sports games.

The competition between the two isn't nearly as heated as GT and Forza.

 

[Samus]

Yes and they're both the same basic game under very different skins. I don't see how GT and FM could be considered too different , they're about as similar as two games could be.

Also this thread is purely about the physics, an area both games have an identical aim, realism.

 

[SuperShouden]

Rockstar does make both GTAIV and RDR, but...to me, at least, they feel completely different. Same thing with GT and Forza, they're both Simulations, but, they feel completely different.

 

[MrWednesday]

I am talking about road racing, I was always told to break in a straight line

Who was telling you, and what did they perceive your skill level to be?

I'd tell anyone who I thought was a beginner that they should brake in a straight line. If I thought they had a good handle on car control and were ready to tackle advanced techniques, I'd point them toward trail braking.

It's absolutely a technique I use in race driving, and I believe it gives me faster lap times. Unfortunately, I don't have much broad basis for comparison of my real on-track lap times---the best I can do is compare to the other five guys I've driven with. I'm consistently faster than they are (comparing in the same car, at the same race, in approximately the same conditions).

This is purely anecdotal, but my recollection is that the biggest advantage one of the great F1 drivers is reputed to have had (either Senna or Schumacher, I forget which) is that he was better and more aggressive at trail braking than his competitors.

 

[hennessey86]

Who was telling you, and what did they perceive your skill level to be?

I'd tell anyone who I thought was a beginner that they should brake in a straight line. If I thought they had a good handle on car control and were ready to tackle advanced techniques, I'd point them toward trail braking.

It's absolutely a technique I use in race driving, and I believe it gives me faster lap times. Unfortunately, I don't have much broad basis for comparison of my real on-track lap times---the best I can do is compare to the other five guys I've driven with. I'm consistently faster than they are (comparing in the same car, at the same race, in approximately the same conditions).

This is purely anecdotal, but my recollection is that the biggest advantage one of the great F1 drivers is reputed to have had (either Senna or Schumacher, I forget which) is that he was better and more aggressive at trail braking than his competitors.

In four wheel vehicles trail braking pertains to using the brakes past the corner entrance (as opposed to the normally taught practice of releasing the brakes before starting the turn). This practice is used for creating weight transfer towards the front tires, thus increasing their traction and reducing understeer. It works best in light vehicles that have their brake bias to the front.
In order to be properly performed, the driver must have excellent sense of the vehicle's behavior and be able to keep the braking effort within very tight limits. Excessive braking effort may result in the vehicle heavily understeering, or - if the brake bias is set to nearly neutral - in the rear wheels locking, effectively causing the vehicle to spin as in a handbrake turn.
Once a driver has mastered trail braking, it can help enter the corners at higher speeds, or avoid an accident if the driver has entered a corner at a speed exceeding the vehicle's (or driver's) capabilities.
[edit]

Ok this isn't what I was talking about, I thought trail breaking was when the drivers in gt5 were literally drifting the cars round the corners with no real speed lost. Maybe that s trail breaking used in an unrealistic manner. My apologies

 

[Samus]

Rockstar does make both GTAIV and RDR, but...to me, at least, they feel completely different. Same thing with GT and Forza, they're both Simulations, but, they feel completely different.

In what way? They both try to simulate real world physics, which does is best is the topic of this thread. But other than that they both feature real world cars racing/driving on real world tracks as the core of the game. They're extremely similar in that regard.

If it's just the feel of the cars that seem different well again that is this thread, which of them is the most realistic?