Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[VXR]

Yeah, livery editor going to the 'spotlight' homespace by default is a little stilly. The white studio would have been wiser.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Even if not perfectly accurate, having manufacturer paints named ala GT5 would go a long way of helping FM4/5/whatever have this nice little touch of "authenticity". This is the kind of detail that helps a lot, and shouldn't be *that* hard to implement.

The game has already been "Pounced on" (for want of a better term) for not having the car colours perfectly accurate on the last page, why times that by two? This stuff is insignificant to me and just gives people more reasons to nitpick, obviously others do feel different though.

If people think the lighting in the paint booth could be improved, then I won't argue with that, at least it's something practical.

 

[HBK]

It can't all be just about "practicality". Paints and their names may be inaccurate, I can live with that. People will find something to nitpick anyway. Forza is an awesome franchise and Forza 4 is one of the best games I've ever played. Still, this doesn't mean it can't be improved. And I think one of the big things lacking in Forza is this kind of "make me dream" moments.

As a game, it's great. As a sim, it's good, good enough for me given the constraints anyway (console platform and all). But as a "dream machine", I must admit I find it a bit dull. Everything is a bit too easy, too smooth, too "playtested" of an experience, almost.

Don't get me wrong. Forza doesn't need less practicality. It just needs more extravaganza, more make-believe.

 

[I'm Motarded]

The warthog and bentley aren't enough make-believe and extravaganza for you?



I think this is an area T10 have done well in. Game modes like Car Soccer & Bowling, tag, cat and mouse have been examples that have gained them praise from the general crowd, but at the risk of upsetting some of the 'hardcore aficionados'. I think the balance is quite good in this area.

I wouldn't call naming paint chips extravagant. not by a long shot. It's super nerd territory really, even amongst us 'car bores'.

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

The warthog and bentley aren't enough make-believe and extravaganza for you?



I think this is an area T10 have done well in. Game modes like Car Soccer & Bowling, tag, cat and mouse have been examples that have gained them praise from the general crowd, but at the risk of upsetting some of the 'hardcore aficionados'. I think the balance is quite good in this area.

I wouldn't call naming paint chips extravagant. not by a long shot. It's super nerd territory really, even amongst us 'car bores'.

Do you mean car whores!? Lol.

I think the lack of the "make me dream" feeling comes from its place in development. Since the majority of us started out on other sims such as GT that feeling was prematurely granted by other games. I think someone who is new to sims and loads up Forza will have that feeling of "Wow. This is mine. This is amazing." Oh to be a sim virgin again.

However, I do think car history could add to this. Just two or three sentences that add a tiny bit of background information on the vehicles.

The game, I won't call it a sim because it certainly is not, that has done the best at fooling you into thinking you own a beautiful collection of cars is Test Drive Unlimited. If you have never played it I will sum it up for you: It is a free ride MMO game where you acquire houses and vehicles and takes place on the islands of Oahu and Ibiza. When you acquire vehicles they are placed in your home garages where you can walk around them, open the doors, peek inside, sit inside, start up the engine, and look around without the slightest intention of racing. You can literally spend hours just cruising the streets, highways, and off road areas with friends. There are typically large club cruises where you will see 20-50 players in a convoy following each other in high end cars obeying traffic laws; just like you would see a club cruise in real life.

I have said it before and I will continue to suggest it until it comes true....

GT and Forza would both benefit from an open world MMO type environment with virtual houses and garages. (Infamous C-Spec rumor anyone?)

One can wish.

 

[buickgnx88]

Going on with the virtual house/garage stuff, why not buy the cars from an actual "dealership"? Basically you'd pick the manufacturer you want, and it would bring you to a dealer space with all the cars from the manufacturer parked inside. Could basically just be the same building interior except with the specific manufacturer logos. Once inside, you could just move around to the different vehicles, similar to how you move in Autovista, and you could change the colors the same way as well. Hell, if they actually make it so the Autovista way of viewing the cars becomes standard for FM5, then you could actually open the doors, hoods, etc on every car!

Sorry, got a bit carried away there!

 

[Scaff]

This is interesting.

To help out with framerate drops in GT5 some tracks seem to have been gutted (and it is the only word I can use) of spectators, flags, etc.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/ps360/archives/53441916.html


Scaff

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

Going on with the virtual house/garage stuff, why not buy the cars from an actual "dealership"? Basically you'd pick the manufacturer you want, and it would bring you to a dealer space with all the cars from the manufacturer parked inside. Could basically just be the same building interior except with the specific manufacturer logos. Once inside, you could just move around to the different vehicles, similar to how you move in Autovista, and you could change the colors the same way as well. Hell, if they actually make it so the Autovista way of viewing the cars becomes standard for FM5, then you could actually open the doors, hoods, etc on every car!

Sorry, got a bit carried away there!

In TDU you drive to the dealerships to purchase cars

It is not as robust as Autovista but along the same lines. Even letting you customize the interior of various cars.

This is interesting.

To help out with framerate drops in GT5 some tracks seem to have been gutted (and it is the only word I can use) of spectators, flags, etc.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/ps360/archives/53441916.html


Scaff

Interesting indeed. Is this post 2.03 or whatever GT is now on?

Regardless, I honestly blame the hardware not the coders.

 

[buickgnx88]

Yeah I knew about the TDU universe, and figured that T10 could go in a similar direction (albeit without driving to the dealerships) by integrating their Autovista mode.

 

[Scaff]

Interesting indeed. Is this post 2.03 or whatever GT is now on?

Regardless, I honestly blame the hardware not the coders.

Yep its post 2.03.

As for who to blame, well that a trickier one and I will stay on the fence for that.



Scaff

 

[PzR Slim]

This is interesting.

To help out with framerate drops in GT5 some tracks seem to have been gutted (and it is the only word I can use) of spectators, flags, etc.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/ps360/archives/53441916.html


Scaff

It begs the question, why did they leave it all in in the first place when they knew it had such a bad effect on performance?

 

[Vaxxtx]

I have said it before and I will continue to suggest it until it comes true....

GT and Forza would both benefit from an open world MMO type environment with virtual houses and garages. (Infamous C-Spec rumor anyone?)

One can wish.

I hope that never happens. Want tranportation in an MMO? They are in every one of them now (ala mounts in Warhammer,WoW.EQ. etc. etc.). They also have player housing in some MMO's as well.

Cruize lobbies in GT5 are some of the silliest things I have ever seen in a car game. Why someone would think its fun to dive around obeying the law of the streets is beyond me. I do it every day in real life....it aint that fun.

If PD/T10 want to add to the game, I would rather have a race career, with real regulations and rules on real tracks.

And this is coming from a guy who used to be in a Car Club in the mid-late 90s and would go cruzin' and enter car shows.

It begs the question, why did they leave it all in in the first place when they knew it had such a bad effect on performance?

I want to just state the obvious. For Kaz to say he doesnt "really look or play the competion's games" it sure is funny that fixes, DLC, and now things like that come right after FM4. So FM4 is running a solid 60fps, and now PD wants to improve frame rate as well.

Had a year to do it, but since there was nothing to "compete with" why bother? Just like the DLC.

 

[cuco33]

Interesting indeed. Is this post 2.03 or whatever GT is now on?

Regardless, I honestly blame the hardware not the coders.

I blame the coders, aka PD. The hardware is locked in. It's not a PC platform where coders can just give the excuse of the end user needs to upgrade to stabilize and improve performance. They had PLENTY of time to work out the kinks and they decided to go for gorgeous graphics over rock steady performance. Now the more cars on track, the less people in the stands it seems which is an oxymoron in my book. Oh well, I'd rather have steady frame rate and no tearing than better looking visuals. I'm one of those people who can't stand stuttering in games. On PC I drop the visual quality to keep the frame rate high and performance nice and stable.

 

[Chagen46]

Going on with the virtual house/garage stuff, why not buy the cars from an actual "dealership"? Basically you'd pick the manufacturer you want, and it would bring you to a dealer space with all the cars from the manufacturer parked inside. Could basically just be the same building interior except with the specific manufacturer logos. Once inside, you could just move around to the different vehicles, similar to how you move in Autovista, and you could change the colors the same way as well. Hell, if they actually make it so the Autovista way of viewing the cars becomes standard for FM5, then you could actually open the doors, hoods, etc on every car!

Sorry, got a bit carried away there!

THIS.

This would be incredible. And it could work, unlike GT5, as the cars in Forza are all good-looking enough to be looked at that closely.

Hell, why not have a used car lot in the front of each dealership (that would require mileage to actually have an effect on performance, though)?

 

[imported_phillkillv2]

Pgr.

 

[Chagen46]

Dammit, don't make want to rebuy PGR4

 

[Wolfe]

Disagree. I was lobbying for this back in fm3, however my stance has changed. IMO it would be unnecessary time spent, we are living in a digital age where most people are walking around with the internet in their pocket just beyond a touch-screen. The cars in the game should generate enough spark in people to want to research them for themselves, the internet can & will provide much more details and history than Turn 10 could provide.

Plus we have this whole accuracy thing, which is rife in this nit-picking sim community, too much margin for error when putting these descriptions together unless they are kept short and sweet which wouldn't do many of the 500-600 cars a justice.

I do miss the little automotive info/fact snippets from the fm3 loading screens, however I've hardly heard a peep from others that feel the same since fm4 launched, this leads me to believe the majority just don't care for this info.

Descriptions and history aren't absolutely necessary, but I think it's rather daft that we can't see the engine layout or aspiration (there are events based on those things). Length/width/height/wheelbase/track data should already be available, and bore & stroke would be nice to have a guess at an engine's characteristics, though providing the torque/HP curve before you purchase a car would work too.

For a simulator, Forza tries awfully hard to hide away all of the details and push their abstract 0-10 rating system. It's a bit patronizing.

 

[PzR Slim]

Dammit, don't make want to rebuy PGR4

I've still got it! Will defo be firing it up tonight after seeing this. It'll be the first time with my Fanatec Elite 👍

 

[buickgnx88]

Descriptions and history aren't absolutely necessary, but I think it's rather daft that we can't see the engine layout or aspiration (there are events based on those things). Length/width/height/wheelbase/track data should already be available, and bore & stroke would be nice to have a guess at an engine's characteristics, though providing the torque/HP curve before you purchase a car would work too.

For a simulator, Forza tries awfully hard to hide away all of the details and push their abstract 0-10 rating system. It's a bit patronizing.

Agree, they need to instill more technical info. The 0-10 system feels like an arcade game, like in the NFS and Midnight club series. I think the best way to set it up would be an option similar to that of the assists (minus the prize money part) where you can choose whether to use the 0-10 system or actual numerical data. Heck, they use numerical data when you purchase parts. They should use data such as power/weight ratio, braking distance, max grip, etc.

 

[Vaxxtx]

Agree, they need to instill more technical info. The 0-10 system feels like an arcade game, like in the NFS and Midnight club series. I think the best way to set it up would be an option similar to that of the assists (minus the prize money part) where you can choose whether to use the 0-10 system or actual numerical data. Heck, they use numerical data when you purchase parts. They should use data such as power/weight ratio, braking distance, max grip, etc.

You can see power, weight, and little things like that. Not as in depth but I dont see it as a flaw.

 

[buickgnx88]

True, but why not provide more data for those that want it?

 

[Vaxxtx]

True, but why not provide more data for those that want it?

Have you ever used the benchmark option?

 

[Jamezinho]

If PD/T10 want to add to the game, I would rather have a race career, with real regulations and rules on real tracks.

+1.

Neither game takes the racing particularly seriously. I'd like to see some proper championships with the full race weekend format (practice, qualifying, race 1, race 2 for example), longer races, pit and tyre strategies, racing flags, etc....

I know I will get the standard retort of "play on the PC if you want that", but there is no valid reason why these things couldn't be done within the world of Forza and Gran Turismo. Both titles need to offer something for the sim racers as well as the casual racers.

 

[Vaxxtx]

+1.

Neither game takes the racing particularly seriously. I'd like to see some proper championships with the full race weekend format (practice, qualifying, race 1, race 2 for example), longer races, pit and tyre strategies, racing flags, etc....

I know I will get the standard retort of "play on the PC if you want that", but there is no valid reason why these things couldn't be done within the world of Forza and Gran Turismo. Both titles need to offer something for the sim racers as well as the casual racers.

If Race Pro and Ferarri Challenge could do it on consoles, I am sure T10 can as well. I do think they are scared to do it though. They think it will scare off the larger group of casual gamers...which it might. Dunno.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Descriptions and history aren't absolutely necessary, but I think it's rather daft that we can't see the engine layout or aspiration (there are events based on those things). Length/width/height/wheelbase/track data should already be available, and bore & stroke would be nice to have a guess at an engine's characteristics, though providing the torque/HP curve before you purchase a car would work too.

For a simulator, Forza tries awfully hard to hide away all of the details and push their abstract 0-10 rating system. It's a bit patronizing.

You can see most of those important figures by pushing (Y) to toggle the 0-10 rating system. By pushing (X) you can see aspiration and Peak RPM bhp and Torques etc.

Drivetrain layout isn't hidden by any stretch of the imagination. Any data you need for restricted events is available easily. Everything else you listed isn't really necessary, I've never bothered to take interest in them in any other sim to be honest, didn't notice they weren't there in forza until you mentioned it. lol

I just fired up rFactor to take a look at the info available there. Looks like there's less info available in this game than fm4 when it comes to specs. All I see is power, torque, and mass. No tyre width, no cc, no 0-60, 60-0 (available via benchmarking the car in forza), not much at all.

If Race Pro and Ferarri Challenge could do it on consoles, I am sure T10 can as well. I do think they are scared to do it though. They think it will scare off the larger group of casual gamers...which it might. Dunno.

I don't think it has anything to do with scaring off anyone, more the way the games career and event modes are. Who in their right mind wants to practice, qualify, Practice, heat 1, and heat 2 for every individual race in the events list? It would take an eternity just to finish the first events list row.

The races in FM and GT are little more than a way to earn cash to the buy cars you want/need. Everything else can be done online, which is the best place for it. I, for one, can't see the point of qualifying in GT and FM against AI. Against humans, yes. It works in games like F1 and Race Pro because they have limited cars/events and the whole game is based on a championship(or ships)

 

[Jamezinho]

If Race Pro and Ferarri Challenge could do it on consoles, I am sure T10 can as well. I do think they are scared to do it though. They think it will scare off the larger group of casual gamers...which it might. Dunno.

V8 Superstars is another game that has the full championship format. Personally I find this great fun, much more so than the rather dull single player events in FM and GT.

I don't think it has anything to do with scaring off anyone, more the way the games career and event modes are. Who in their right mind wants to practice, qualify, Practice, heat 1, and heat 2 for every individual race in the events list? It would take an eternity just to finish the first events list row.

The races in FM and GT are little more than a way to earn cash to the buy cars you want/need. Everything else can be done online, which is the best place for it. I, for one, can't see the point of qualifying in GT and FM against AI. Against humans, yes. It works in games like F1 and Race Pro because they have limited cars/events and the whole game is based on a championship(or ships)

That was never the suggestion. The events list could remain exactly as it is for the more casual player. What I'm thinking of is an additional 'championship mode' where players can take part in lengthy championships against the AI using the race weekend format. You could take part in an ALMS championship, a DTM season, a Super GT season, or make your own custom championship. This could be implemented online too by having an online championship structure.

As I said, it's about giving the sim players the scope for more serious racing rather than constantly dumbing everything down for the lowest common denominators.

 

[zr1chris]

I don't think it has anything to do with scaring off anyone, more the way the games career and event modes are. Who in their right mind wants to practice, qualify, Practice, heat 1, and heat 2 for every individual race in the events list? It would take an eternity just to finish the first events list row.

Practice is not necessary but qualifying and just 1 heat would be better than no qualifying and 2 heats imo.

 

[PzR Crazy]

This is interesting.

To help out with framerate drops in GT5 some tracks seem to have been gutted (and it is the only word I can use) of spectators, flags, etc.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/ps360/archives/53441916.html


Scaff

That's really interesting!

I had noticed some small changes, and thought I had gone mad!

Slightly sadly, I did one of the European seasonals (5 laps around London), I used the Elise in bumper cam and it's still tearing moderately noticeably (this is one of tracks that it just always struggles with)..

Not that FM4 is perfect, the other day I was doing an organised race around Iberian Full, I'd practiced in hotlap mode, and found that in the actual race with 10 or so others, the 30fps rear view mirror was suddenly quite jarring for some reason.. it's odd how 60fps really is a so 'smooth'..

I do hope that 'next gen' we get a solid 60fps all-round in both games..

 

[artboy76]

V8 Superstars is a game that deals in only one series (and in my opinion very badly), both GT5 and Forza series are not that type of game. Even games like Race Pro didn't offer the actual real WTCC championship sadly.
I'd love to have ToCa games again with full BTCC season, buit it's not likely to ever happen again.
I loved ToCa race driver 3 as you could arrange full championships and namely V8 oZ SUPERCARS.

So yeah for me GT and FM are what they are, sandbox games for car lovers and petrolheads ........

Theres a few games out there that cater for one series and one fan base (Superbike games by black bean(??)) and WRC games and V8 superstars, but they are the exception to the rule.

Quite happy for GT and FM to just continue to develop but not too fussed if we never get a stand alone championship within them for one series...i mean which one could they even pick?

BTW EVEN SHIFT 2 DIDNT PROVIDE ACTUAL championship even though had license to GT3-GT1......

 

[Vaxxtx]

I don't think it has anything to do with scaring off anyone, more the way the games career and event modes are. Who in their right mind wants to practice, qualify, Practice, heat 1, and heat 2 for every individual race in the events list? It would take an eternity just to finish the first events list row.

The races in FM and GT are little more than a way to earn cash to the buy cars you want/need. Everything else can be done online, which is the best place for it. I, for one, can't see the point of qualifying in GT and FM against AI. Against humans, yes. It works in games like F1 and Race Pro because they have limited cars/events and the whole game is based on a championship(or ships)

I do. I am sure others would as well. Quality over quantity. I would rather have a small in depth chapionship than a huge, lackluster, 3-5 lap "event" list.

And yes, you can set them up online which is how CWR do our race series.

V8 Superstars is another game that has the full championship format. Personally I find this great fun, much more so than the rather dull single player events in FM and GT.



That was never the suggestion. The events list could remain exactly as it is for the more casual player. What I'm thinking of is an additional 'championship mode' where players can take part in lengthy championships against the AI using the race weekend format. You could take part in an ALMS championship, a DTM season, a Super GT season, or make your own custom championship. This could be implemented online too by having an online championship structure.

As I said, it's about giving the sim players the scope for more serious racing rather than constantly dumbing everything down for the lowest common denominators.

👍👍

BTW EVEN SHIFT 2 DIDNT PROVIDE ACTUAL championship even though had license to GT3-GT1......

Yeah it did...in a slimed down sense. There was a race series, and points to be earned. It could have been more in depth, but for what it did it was ok.