Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[artboy76]

Luminis I suppose point im getting at is that Nurb'ring is all about testing man and machine, you vs THAT track, where as a shorter circuit track is designed as much as for the challenge also with racing in mind.. look at all the new tracks or old ones redesigned to accommodate over taking etc etc... so they for me relate better in a game for racing or hot lapping... what you don't get in game versions of Nurb'ring is that sense of truly you vs the green hell...which is the point of that track....

 

[Luminis]

Luminis I suppose point im getting at is that Nurb'ring is all about testing man and machine, you vs THAT track, where as a shorter circuit track is designed as much as for the challenge also with racing in mind.. look at all the new tracks or old ones redesigned to accommodate over taking etc etc... so they for me relate better in a game for racing or hot lapping... what you don't get in game versions of Nurb'ring is that sense of truly you vs the green hell...which is the point of that track....

Wait, what? The point of a track that was specifically build as a race track is not to race? A track that people hasve been racing on for 84 years now? That is still used as a race track, even for endurance races?

I could understand that point if it was made about Fujimi Kaido, sure. But about a track with a racing history as long as the Nordschleife? That might have been the reason why Bizzare created that track that way to begin with, but, really, I see little to no point in doing that. If someone can't handle the track, or doesn't like it, that's fine.

There are, however, a lot of people who genuinly like that track for what it is. Not because of the hype surrounding it, just for what it is. Especially because racing and overtaking is a tad more complicated and challenging there.

 

[ReincarnationB]

If you want to get to a specific point, do it yourself. If you didn't notice, though, my point was neither about GT5, nor about the Forza version, it was about the real track.

Which means it is irrelevant to this forum hence why i had happily crossed it out?

From what i see from the highly hormonal and emotional gesture and the accompanied quote you seem to have an objection to it, explain why.

Oh, it does improve the game. If it wasn't for the 'Ring, I wouldn't have bothered at all. It's just not enough.

.

Talking about getting to the point, your previous quote said "Not enough to make it the better game, far from it" .... Contradictory.

 

[Luminis]

Which means it is irrelevant to this forum hence why i had happily crossed it out?

From what i see from the highly hormonal and emotional gesture and the accompanied quote you seem to have an objection to it, explain why.

If you understood I was reffering to the real track (because the track itself has been brought up earlier, remember?), why, exactly, did you get hung up on GT5's 24 hour endurance races? Tallk about contradicting yourself.

Talking about getting to the point, your previous quote said "Not enough to make it the better game, far from it" .... Contradictory.

A better game than Forza 4, obviously. Having the 'Ring alone isn't enough to make GT5 better than FM4.

 

[artboy76]

Wait, what? The point of a track that was specifically build as a race track is not to race? A track that people hasve been racing on for 84 years now? That is still used as a race track, even for endurance races?

I could understand that point if it was made about Fujimi Kaido, sure. But about a track with a racing history as long as the Nordschleife? That might have been the reason why Bizzare created that track that way to begin with, but, really, I see little to no point in doing that. If someone can't handle the track, or doesn't like it, that's fine.

There are, however, a lot of people who genuinly like that track for what it is. Not because of the hype surrounding it, just for what it is. Especially because racing and overtaking is a tad more complicated and challenging there.

OK I did the real Nurb'ring in an old Alfa 75 TS, it was intense, mainly cause i knew it was my transport home!! So if i blew it or binned it...well it was nerve racking!!
Coupled with the rich kids in exotica who on the whole had cars that far out weighted their talents and then the lads on stag dos and such in bangers basically.....well yeah its hard to like that track in game form as it just cant compare as i find it annoying and long and quite dull......

Quite how you cant see that the Nurb'ring has become a cliche now.

 

[shawtyoner]

Quite how you cant see that the Nurb'ring has become a cliche now.

I can't see how The Ring can be considered a cliche at all. Because you saw kids with exotic cars driving the Ring with below average talent does little to undermine the legendary status of this track. If you personally don't like the track that's fine, a lot of people don't due to its length and complexity.

Yes, the danger element is not there (its a game), yet every time I drive/race it in game, it is always a challenge, because of its length and complexity. I thank PGR for being the first game (that I know of) to model this track for consoles, now I feel it is time for T10 to one up it and give it the "TLC" that it deserves. Tracks should be treated the same way that cars are I feel.

 

[Luminis]

OK I did the real Nurb'ring in an old Alfa 75 TS, it was intense, mainly cause i knew it was my transport home!! So if i blew it or binned it...well it was nerve racking!!
Coupled with the rich kids in exotica who on the whole had cars that far out weighted their talents and then the lads on stag dos and such in bangers basically.....well yeah its hard to like that track in game form as it just cant compare as i find it annoying and long and quite dull......

Doesn't that go for every track? I mean, driving Laguna Seca in a game doesn't come close to the sensation of driving the real thing with your daily driver that you have to go back home in.

Does that mean that it's a bad track and not worthy to be in the game?

Quite how you cant see that the Nurb'ring has become a cliche now.

So, it's bad because it's popular? Quite the hipster-esque mindset, no?

 

[VXR]

As long as my annual MoT test for my car doesn't bankrupt me, I'm going to pick up a PS3, as my work have 160gb models for £150 and I get a further £15 staff discount.

Would make sense to get GT5 just to take photomode shots of premium cars.

 

[Terronium-12]

I know I'm going to regret saying this, but keep the thread on topic folks, please.

As for you, ReincarnationB, the condescending, borderline personal digs end here.

 

[I'm Motarded]

As long as my annual MoT test for my car doesn't bankrupt me, I'm going to pick up a PS3, as my work have 160gb models for £150 and I get a further £15 staff discount.

Would make sense to get GT5 just to take photomode shots of premium cars.

Does it? Nearly £200 for some virtual snapshots?
If I were you I'd at least plan a few trips of the ring as a contingency plan

 

[Jamezinho]

For me the Nurburgring Nordschleife is more of an experience rather than a race track. I fully understand the long, proud history of the circuit and it's legendary status in motorsport. These days it's more of a reminder of how circuit racing used to be - long, winding, narrow circuits that are inherently dangerous - and apart from the annual 24hr race the 'ring is largely irrelevant. I know I will get picked up on this comment but the circuit hasn't played host to any major race series in a long time.

In video game terms, the gruelling difficulty and length of the Nordschleife is the very reason why I don't think it's a great race track. I've rarely had a good race at the 'ring online. The field gets fractured early on and it can be a lonely place to race. That's just my personal experience and I'm sure others have had fantastic online races there.

For what it's worth, I would never advocate the removal of the Nordschleife from any racing game. It's iconic, historic and one of a kind. There's no challenge like it. But if I want to race I'll run the Nurburgring GP Strecke every time.

 

[t.o.]

For me the Nurburgring Nordschleife is more of an experience rather than a race track. I fully understand the long, proud history of the circuit and it's legendary status in motorsport. These days it's more of a reminder of how circuit racing used to be - long, winding, narrow circuits that are inherently dangerous - and apart from the annual 24hr race the 'ring is largely irrelevant. I know I will get picked up on this comment but the circuit hasn't played host to any major race series in a long time.

In video game terms, the gruelling difficulty and length of the Nordschleife is the very reason why I don't think it's a great race track. I've rarely had a good race at the 'ring online. The field gets fractured early on and it can be a lonely place to race. That's just my personal experience and I'm sure others have had fantastic online races there.

For what it's worth, I would never advocate the removal of the Nordschleife from any racing game. It's iconic, historic and one of a kind. There's no challenge like it. But if I want to race I'll run the Nurburgring GP Strecke every time.

Very wise post. The Ring is pretty much an ode to a time long gone by.

 

[artboy76]

Yep, pretty much said exactly what I was trying to say to Luminis. Spot on.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I'll readily admit that without a full grid (and even then, it has to be reasonably competitive), the 'Ring isn't a great place to run actual races on. There's very few proper overtaking opportunities (and the average online player thinks any part of the track is fine), the length can provide frustration if you've bunged a lap early on (or, as I did with a Rivals run recently, on the very last turn of the lap ). But the history, the mythos - that's why I run a lot of cars there. Also, when I'm not hunting down lap times, I prefer it as a general 8/10ths sort of drive, and to also evaluate my car's tune from a bunch of different perspectives. The 'Ring is basically a giant test track for me, I suppose.

That said, I did have one of my absolute best online racing experiences this generation on the 'Ring, in GT5 - a few friends and I stuck ourselves in NASCAR vehicles on Comfort Mediums with no aids and did 3 laps. It was nuts, with 4th gear being the only one that could put power down cleanly at full throttle, but it was exhilarating, a constant battle with us always only a few car lengths apart.

I absolutely believe it should be present in as many realistic racing games as possible, along with La Sarthe, simply for their historic value, but I can think of plenty of other tracks I'd rather actually race on. Tying that all back on topic, though - the inaccuracies with the FM4 version means I can't enjoy it as much as I do in GT5. Which, ironically enough, means GT5 really has morphed into "the Nurburgring simulator" for me . I only really enjoy driving that, Spa, some of my created Mt. Aso tracks, and the "Original 3" (Grand Valley, Trial Mountain, and Deep Forest).

 

[t.o.]

I can go along with that SlipZtrEm. You guys are pretty much nailing the subject.

PS: Not wanting to go off topic but you guys forum honor is in question. 3 forums have now confirmed they will participate in the NATIONS(forum) RACE yet only artboy has manned up for ForzaPlanet. Artboy is gonna need 3 brave soldiers with him in this vehicular triumph. WHERE IS THE HONOR!?!?!?

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

I can go along with that SlipZtrEm. You guys are pretty much nailing the subject.

PS: Not wanting to go off topic but you guys forum honor is in question. 3 forums have now confirmed they will participate in the NATIONS(forum) RACE yet only artboy has manned up for ForzaPlanet. Artboy is gonna need 3 brave soldiers with him in this vehicular triumph. WHERE IS THE HONOR!?!?!?

At that hour... in bed.

 

[Scaff]

I can go along with that SlipZtrEm. You guys are pretty much nailing the subject.

PS: Not wanting to go off topic but you guys forum honor is in question. 3 forums have now confirmed they will participate in the NATIONS(forum) RACE yet only artboy has manned up for ForzaPlanet. Artboy is gonna need 3 brave soldiers with him in this vehicular triumph. WHERE IS THE HONOR!?!?!?

With three kids I have zero chance of getting on FM4 at 4pm on a Saturday, be lucky if I'm even in the house, most likely being a 'taxi' at that kind of time.

Unfortunately for me the only time I get free is either lunchtimes 'if' I'm working from home or after 11pm.


Scaff

 

[PzR Slim]

I can go along with that SlipZtrEm. You guys are pretty much nailing the subject.

PS: Not wanting to go off topic but you guys forum honor is in question. 3 forums have now confirmed they will participate in the NATIONS(forum) RACE yet only artboy has manned up for ForzaPlanet. Artboy is gonna need 3 brave soldiers with him in this vehicular triumph. WHERE IS THE HONOR!?!?!?

Would love to but four on a Saturday afternoon is a no go for me. There is a good chance I'd be at a footy match . Eight in the evening is the earliest I do any competitive racing.

 

[Wolfe]

there is no counter argument to your logic, you claim it's not black and white, but seem to not to be able to relate FM4 to the current genre at all, and seem to dismiss that fact it's the only game in the genre that is 100% committed to maintaining 60fps..

Have you considered the possibility that FM4 is currently the closest thing to "gameplay over graphics" in its genre...without actually representing "gameplay over graphics"? That's kinda what "not black and white" means. A gradient.

As for the logic that having any fidelity to the graphics automatically means it's graphics focussed...

"Any" fidelity? Really? Are you grasping for reasons to disagree with me? I said FM4 looks "marvellous," not "acceptable." Turn 10 put a ton of work into FM4 to make it look amazing. It shows.

That was the whole point. Frankly I think it's ludicrous to believe FM4 has sacrificed any visual quality in the name of...anything. A supermodel can't also be the "ugly smart girl." Just a smart supermodel.

 

[PzR Slim]

Frankly I think it's ludicrous to believe FM4 has sacrificed any visual quality in the name of...anything.

What about not including changing time and weather to maintain 60fps? Is that not sacrificing visual quality for something, namely 60 fps?

 

[X-Power]

That was the whole point. Frankly I think it's ludicrous to believe FM4 has sacrificed any visual quality in the name of...anything. A supermodel can't also be the "ugly smart girl." Just a smart supermodel.

What about the blacked-out interiors when in a race? Or the exclusion of time and weather? Turn 10 could have dropped the framerate to 30FPS and included time, weather and used higher LOD's in races. However, they deemed the rock solid 60FPS to be more important, and I praise them for that. 👍

 

[Wolfe]

What about not including changing time and weather to maintain 60fps? Is that not sacrificing visual quality for something, namely 60 fps?

I'd be more inclined to agree that cutting the framerate to 30fps (reducing visual quality, IMO) in order to include night racing and weather (gameplay options) would be an example of sacrificing visual quality for something. Night racing adds difficulty, and wet racing completely alters gameplay.

But if they cut the framerate to 30fps to include more special effects in normal daytime races, then they'd just be pushing graphics. Likewise, insisting on 60fps to the exclusion of potential gameplay options like night/wet racing can be considered focusing on graphics (though I always prefer 60fps). After all, they could have reduced polygon count and/or texture size and kept both 60fps and night/weather.

That's the way I see it.

 

[HBK]

After all, they could have reduced polygon count and/or texture size and kept both 60fps and night/weather.

Hardly. Cars still use low poly Forza 1 models, and tracks were seriously butchered (in terms of polycount/complexity) to allow for 12/16 cars on track (and for the record, there is no visual damage rendition with 13-16 cars on track).

Yes, they could have chosen to cut even more in the graphics department. But the game would have been butt-ugly.

 

[I'm Motarded]

But if they cut the framerate to 30fps to include more special effects in normal daytime races, then they'd just be pushing graphics. Likewise, insisting on 60fps to the exclusion of potential gameplay options like night/wet racing can be considered focusing on graphics (though I always prefer 60fps). After all, they could have reduced polygon count and/or texture size and kept both 60fps and night/weather.

That's the way I see it.

The FPS has just as much effect visually as it does with the control system. Low FPS can have a negative effect on input lag by worsening the response time. This comes directly under the gameplay heading IMHO. Did a quick search on FPS vs input lag and lol GT5 is mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_lag

A console will send out a new frame once it has finished processing it. This is measured with the frame rate. Using Gran Turismo 5 as an example, the maximum theoretical framerate is 60 FPS (frames per second), which means the minimum theoretical input lag for the overall system is 17ms (note: the maximum real world FPS in 3D mode is 40-50 FPS).[5] In situations where many cars are on-screen on a wet track, this can drop to 30 FPS (16 FPS for 3D mode) which is equivalent to 32ms.

At a locked 30fps, input lag is not something most people would notice much. But jumping from a locked 60fps to 30fps (same game) a lot of us would notice it, and it only gets more noticeable if the 30fps isn't locked and is allowed to fluctuate above and below. With other additional sources adding to input lag it's important to minimize input lag any way you can for smooth gameplay, a locked 60FPS is a damn good start.

On another note, as low as 16FPS in 3D mode? That's unplayable

 

[tribolik]

The FPS has just as much effect visually as it does with the control system. Low FPS can have a negative effect on input lag by worsening the response time. This comes directly under the gameplay heading IMHO. Did a quick search on FPS vs input lag and lol GT5 is mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_lag


At a locked 30fps, input lag is not something most people would notice much. But jumping from a locked 60fps to 30fps (same game) a lot of us would notice it, and it only gets more noticeable if the 30fps isn't locked and is allowed to fluctuate above and below. With other additional sources adding to input lag it's important to minimize input lag any way you can for smooth gameplay, a locked 60FPS is a damn good start.

On another note, as low as 16FPS in 3D mode? That's unplayable

Ever played GT5 in 3D mode?

Hardly. Cars still use low poly Forza 1 models, and tracks were seriously butchered (in terms of polycount/complexity) to allow for 12/16 cars on track (and for the record, there is no visual damage rendition with 13-16 cars on track).

Yes, they could have chosen to cut even more in the graphics department. But the game would have been butt-ugly.

What cars still use low poly? the standards in GT5 or the cars in FM4? (the poly count in the standard cars in GT5 is so low that they dont call it poly they call it uni ) and what game doesnt render visual damage with 13-16 cars on track? I know GT5 doesnt render mechanical damage and the visual damage system is... lets just say... extremely damaged... but I didnt know that the good damage model FM4 has does not work with more than 13 cars on track ... or am I confusing what you meant?

 

[Imari]

Ever played GT5 in 3D mode?

Is there something special about 3D mode that makes 16fps playable? 16fps makes almost any game unplayable, and even more so for a racing game where timing and reactions are everything.

Unless there's something special about 3D mode that makes those problems disappear, I'd say it's not really relevant whether he's played it or not.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Is there something special about 3D mode that makes 16fps playable? 16fps makes almost any game unplayable, and even more so for a racing game where timing and reactions are everything.

Unless there's something special about 3D mode that makes those problems disappear, I'd say it's not really relevant whether he's played it or not.

Actually, what I found had a habit of disappearing in 3D Mode was the road itself, especially on the 'Ring. That was fun.

I don't think I've seen FM1-level car models in-game in FM4 (since they would be roughly GT5-Standard-like), but it's fairly obvious they're pushing the limits as is. The different quality levels of a car, based on if it's the one you've focused on with the X button in Photomode when there's multiple cars on track, is readily apparent.

As for strictly numbers: the average poly count for a GT4 car was 4000. The number often bandied about for GT5 Premiums is 500,000. Autovista models hit 1 million, but I do wonder what the counts are for things like Homespace, or solo lapping versus solo Photomode on a track, and then the multi-car fields as well. Not that numbers are everything, but for sheer curiosity.

 

[tribolik]

Is there something special about 3D mode that makes 16fps playable? 16fps makes almost any game unplayable, and even more so for a racing game where timing and reactions are everything.

Unless there's something special about 3D mode that makes those problems disappear, I'd say it's not really relevant whether he's played it or not.

Just curious... because one can only say something is unplayable after he tried it... I myself never tried so I cant say if its unplayable or not.

 

[dzidza]

Yesterday, i have finally played forza4 with CSR elite, I was doing rivals mode, and tyre simulation in F4 is atleast one class above GT5. The thing that I love most about tyre physics is that you are faster if your not slidding through turn, unlike in GT5 (especially when online). Most of my friends in GT5 online slide to much, and always have faster times. I am sure that you can achieve better times if you slide a little, but drift style sliding shouldn't make your laps faster, or I may be wrong ???

 

[t.o.]

At that hour... in bed.

With three kids I have zero chance of getting on FM4 at 4pm on a Saturday, be lucky if I'm even in the house, most likely being a 'taxi' at that kind of time.

Unfortunately for me the only time I get free is either lunchtimes 'if' I'm working from home or after 11pm.


Scaff

Would love to but four on a Saturday afternoon is a no go for me. There is a good chance I'd be at a footy match . Eight in the evening is the earliest I do any competitive racing.

I understand. Well at least I did put the word out for you guys. I might do an every other saturday, don't know yet. In any case if you change your mind let me know. Tested the cars with some people tonight. It's gonna to be a blast!