Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

  • Thread starter Thread starter hennessey86
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I wouldn't say the G27 is a budget wheel. The DFGT is more of a budget wheel at $150 where you can get one for like $100 on sale. But I agree, MS needs a DFGT equivalent wheel around the $150 mark or less
 
Forza 4 with a controller STILL kick's GT5's ass with a wheel anyway.

Clearly you haven't tried either with a wheel.

I've tried all combinations of methods (I have or have had 911 Turbo S / Microsoft Wireless wheel/ Logitech G27/ Microsoft Speed Wheel / controllers (360/PS3) Madcatz 360 Wireless Wheel)

And in all honesty my order of preference of "if I got to race and the best I could do" order is:
Forza 4 with Fanatec 911 Turbo S (no brainer there)
Forza 4 with Microsoft Wireless Wheel
Forza 4 with controller/Microsoft Speed Wheel (these two are a tie at the moment as I'm still trying to get used to the Speed Wheel but I'm more comfortable with the controller - using these as my 911 Turbo is "in the shop" :( )
GT5 with 911 Turbo S
GT5 with Logitech G27
GT5 with controller
Forza 4 with Madcatz Wireless Wheel (the absolute worse experience. I just took it back to BB and bought a new 360 controller as my old one is showing signs of death)
 
I haven't played GT5 with a wheel, but I recently tried FM4 with some generic Microsoft-branded wheel I could not identify (desk-mounted with a two-pedal set). The force-feedback was numb and uninspiring, and the overall construction felt more like a children's toy than a gaming controller. The physics and driving experience did not benefit one bit from the extra control; actually it helped expose how unnaturally smooth and artificial the game feels.

I'm sure the high-end wheels are astronomically better, but I can't help but guess that if I tried FM4 with one, it would still feel more like a game than your average PC sim. Personally, I'd rather just stick with a controller.

For comparisons, the physics don't change based on what controller you use. You can compare GT5/FM4, each with a controller, and come to the same conclusions as you would with a wheel (except for comments on force-feedback, of course).
 
^ Yeah, it's a shame that if you want to enjoy both GT and Forza to the fullest extent, you're going to need to spend something like €250-300 on steering wheels for both a PS3 and a Xbox 360. :(
 
I haven't played GT5 with a wheel, but I recently tried FM4 with some generic Microsoft-branded wheel I could not identify (desk-mounted with a two-pedal set). The force-feedback was numb and uninspiring, and the overall construction felt more like a children's toy than a gaming controller. The physics and driving experience did not benefit one bit from the extra control; actually it helped expose how unnaturally smooth and artificial the game feels.

I'm sure the high-end wheels are astronomically better, but I can't help but guess that if I tried FM4 with one, it would still feel more like a game than your average PC sim. Personally, I'd rather just stick with a controller.

For comparisons, the physics don't change based on what controller you use. You can compare GT5/FM4, each with a controller, and come to the same conclusions as you would with a wheel (except for comments on force-feedback, of course).

There is no doubt that neither GT5 or Forza stack up to PC sims which is why I am going to purchace a PC very soon and get Project cars :)
 
Whatever PC you have now, hennessey86, if it can play YouTube videos without slowing down it can probably handle Live for Speed. ;) It has a DX8 engine dating from 2003, but the clutch/shifter and 900-degree support is fantastic. Grab the free demo while you wait for your gaming PC.
 
I only want to say:A good wheel can bring rebirth to a game! Whatever you can feel from a racing game is through a wheel, including physics. Lots of people just use G25/27 to play GT5, and Microsoft wheel to play forza, then judging two games. It's unfair. I have Fanatec CSR Elite, I use it to play both forza 4 and GT5. When Loosing grip, you can feel it in forza4, but nothing in GT5. It's the difference!
I agree that GT5's photomode is better looking than forza4 because of its high exposure. But forza4 is more close to what our eyes see directly. You can never see that high exposure in reallife. So it's just graphics style. Regarding GT5 as standard and real, any other game is never take over GT5. Don't be so extreme. When i change between forza4 and GT5, i feel forza4's graphics is more complex and rich, every track have different lighting and color, but GT5's is empty and track is the same style when sunny. You can feel it more obviously when you change between two game frequently, just looking the same track Indy and Laguna Seca. I agree what hennessey86 say: Forza has the superior graphics for the simple reason that everything in the game has been given the same amount of care and attention.
 
Whatever PC you have now, hennessey86, if it can play YouTube videos without slowing down it can probably handle Live for Speed. ;) It has a DX8 engine dating from 2003, but the clutch/shifter and 900-degree support is fantastic. Grab the free demo while you wait for your gaming PC.

Forza 4 and LFS are not unlike each other in FFB, it's probably the only PC sim F4 really does compare to, albeit a little watered down in places.

I'm surprised you didn't feel it.
 
For comparisons, the physics don't change based on what controller you use. You can compare GT5/FM4, each with a controller, and come to the same conclusions as you would with a wheel (except for comments on force-feedback, of course).

I do agree with you on a basic level, but the problem is the controllers for each console are very different in terms of trigger quality and will give a very different amount of feel when driving.
IMO, it's the same as comparing a good set of pedals with an average or poor set.

When I was into GT5, I refused point blank to use the pad due to those Godawful, flimsy triggers with their initial mm of slack/slop and very limited travel with almost non-existent spring resistance. Plus, they're convex, rather than concave so your fingers don't sit in them.
I know many people get on with them just fine and can post very fast times, but side to side there's no comparison with 360 pad triggers where you really can get a good feel for throttle management which in turn can affect your judgement on physics/handling.

The fact that GT5's setup at default to use the face buttons rather than the triggers says it all...

Of course, there's always an XCM converter, but I haven't tried that.
 
The wheel debate is a valid one. Back when I only had the G25 and Microsoft wheel, I leaned way more towards GT5P then FM3 because of the wheel I was using. The Microsoft wheel just killed the experience for me and I refused to want to play with a pad. However when I bought the Fanatec GT2 wheel when FM4 came out, the story changed. I now use the Fanatec for both FM4 and GT5, but lately FM4 has been receiving more play time. Had I not bought it, I'm sure GT5 would have been the main choice, regardless of how great FM4 is.
 
I'm sure the high-end wheels are astronomically better, but I can't help but guess that if I tried FM4 with one, it would still feel more like a game than your average PC sim. Personally, I'd rather just stick with a controller.

For comparisons, the physics don't change based on what controller you use. You can compare GT5/FM4, each with a controller, and come to the same conclusions as you would with a wheel (except for comments on force-feedback, of course).
For the first part I have to say you couldn't be more wrong. I will disclose that I haven't really put any real time into any PC sims to be a judge so I fully disclose that but I have to say that the "feel" between using a proper wheel in Forza vs. a controller is night and day. There's no comparison. If you look at the list I made above you'll see a "weak" wheel (which sounds like what you had used being an "unbranded" microsoft wheel) is the absolute worse experience on earth. I wont say any controller will never replicate the feel of a wheel but I will say that controller hasn't been sold yet.

I also disagree that physics don't change with a controller versus a wheel. With a controller it's inevitable that certain aids and such have to be applied to control the cars. This, by it's nature, changes the physics. You can probably drive a real car with a controller but you damn sure couldn't race a car with one.
 
I also disagree that physics don't change with a controller versus a wheel. With a controller it's inevitable that certain aids and such have to be applied to control the cars. This, by it's nature, changes the physics. You can probably drive a real car with a controller but you damn sure couldn't race a car with one.

I agree 100% with you FM4 with a controller can not be compared with a wheel. It is day and night, ying and yang, evil and good. You get my drift right.
 
I agree 100% with you FM4 with a controller can not be compared with a wheel. It is day and night, ying and yang, evil and good. You get my drift right.

Exactly, black and white, left and right ect ect ect.

It's simply a complete different game.:lol:

One of the big differences between FM4 and GT5 for me:

-FM4 has a better carreer mode
-GT5 has better seasonal events
-I have FM4 triple screen and only single screen GT5
 
Forza 4 with a controller STILL kick's GT5's ass with a wheel anyway.

I 2nd that. Forza is the only racing game that ive ever played and didnt care about not using a wheel. Just works so well with a controller.

That being said, i would like to try it with a wheel. I dont have the money to spend on toys right now, im dumping a ton of money into my project car.
 
Well, I've tried them both with a controller so I can compare a little. I won't buy a wheel just for one game.

well just do what I did and buy a wheel that works on 360/PS3/PC, I am assuming you have G25/27 in that case a GT2/CSR will make it feel like a toy
 
I 2nd that. Forza is the only racing game that ive ever played and didnt care about not using a wheel. Just works so well with a controller.

That being said, i would like to try it with a wheel. I dont have the money to spend on toys right now, im dumping a ton of money into my project car.

I hear you. I'd like to sell my G27 and Turbo 911 S and get the Fanatec CSR Elite but that ain't happening any time soon.
 
I hear you. I'd like to sell my G27 and Turbo 911 S and get the Fanatec CSR Elite but that ain't happening any time soon.

I am going to get an elite later this year, theres nothing wrong with my GT2. I just NEED that wheel :D
 
I hear you. I'd like to sell my G27 and Turbo 911 S and get the Fanatec CSR Elite but that ain't happening any time soon.

Thats the wheel i almost bought a couple months ago. I have two G27 wheels. One is modified anf the other one is in the shipping box never opened.
 
I am going to get an elite later this year, theres nothing wrong with my GT2. I just NEED that wheel :D
I hate you, I hate you very much. :rolleyes::mad::irked::guilty:
Thats the wheel i almost bought a couple months ago. I have two G27 wheels. One is modified anf the other one is in the shipping box never opened.
I'm starting not to like you either ... :irked:

I had planned to do those crazy mods to my G27 that look like a real racing wheel with working buttons and display and all but alas I never did. :(
 
I hate you, I hate you very much. :rolleyes::mad::irked::guilty:

I'm starting not to like you either ... :irked:

I had planned to do those crazy mods to my G27 that look like a real racing wheel with working buttons and display and all but alas I never did. :(

haha. I didnt' do the crazy mods to it, just inverted pedals, stiffer springs for the clutch and brake, and a spacer in the shifter to give it more resistance. I haven't done IRACING in a long time, I really need to get back into it.
 
Yeah, G27. I'd love to get a Fanatec, but buying one in the UK doesn't look particularly easy, and the price is sky high. :nervous:

Im in the uk and it was easy for me, the price is fair for what you get in my humble opinion. Fanatec are the only wheel maker to support the 360/PS3/PC and there wheels are very high in quality.
 
...I'm surprised you didn't feel it.
The wheel I tried was a basic MS one, so maybe not so surprising.

I do agree with you on a basic level, but the problem is the controllers for each console are very different in terms of trigger quality and will give a very different amount of feel when driving...
Valid point. I insisted on playing GT5 with the triggers but my hands would become sore just from playing for an hour or two!

It's kind of ridiculous considering the Dual Shock 2 works perfectly fine with L2/R2 as the triggers (all of the buttons are pressure sensitive). You get all the support you need for your fingers, and although the throttle takes a little getting used to, the brake button feels much more like a real brake pedal than any trigger. I don't recall if you can use a DS2 with a PS3, but I play Enthusia with this setup and it's great.

...If you look at the list I made above you'll see a "weak" wheel (which sounds like what you had used being an "unbranded" microsoft wheel) is the absolute worse experience on earth...
Seems likely. I never meant to compare it with Fanatec wheels and such. I was just surprised that it was worse than '90s arcade cabinets.

...With a controller it's inevitable that certain aids and such have to be applied to control the cars. This, by it's nature, changes the physics...
In my opinion that's not physics at all; it's control programming. Some games may blur the lines between the two -- or not simulate any valid physics at all -- but there's still a difference between a gamepad modulating steering response rate based on velocity, and a gamepad enabling you to round a hairpin at 186mph. :)

Personally I've never played a game that actually swaps physics engines when you plug in a wheel/controller...from either end of the arcade/sim spectrum. Limitations, flaws, and quirks (in physics, not controls) have always remained the same.

Even a state-of-the-art, supercomputer-powered simulator could drive like crap with a wheel, if it had poor force feedback, nonlinear assisted steering, and tiny brake/throttle modulation zones. None of those things has to do with physics.
 
I am going to get an elite later this year, theres nothing wrong with my GT2. I just NEED that wheel :D

You WILL love it.

I went from PWTS to CSR to CSR Elite.

The CSR i got for free because my 1 year and 11 months old PWTS was dying on me. Fanatec offered me a GT2 as replacement. I asked for a CSR and got one instead.👍

The CSR was great, realy nothing wrong with it. But like you: i NEEDED that CSR ELite. I sold the CSR a month later and preordered the CSR Elite.

Man, i love that wheel.

Nothing wrong with the CSR Elite, but about the Clubsport Wheel: I NEED that wheel :lol: (keeping the csr elite though)
 
Intresting quote from GT planet about controler vs wheel in Forza 4

You need to know a factual *issue* about FM4.



Despite the updates introduced a fully-released physics for the wheels - you can feel incredible amount of tyre-thread simulation once you endulge into the Simulation steering setting without assists - the controllers are still having a built-in buffer for turning.



Thus, despite of the steering mode you're into (Normal or Simulation), the controller will always have *invisible* traction thank to that steering buffer. Result is simple - with the steering buffer, controller players do not fell any handicap regarding actual tyre-thread/tyre-threshold and they can enter and exit any turn more efficiently.



And because tyre-threshold is the single most important variable in movement-physics - which determines both entry and exiting capabilities and influences traction-offset in both longitudinal and lateral movement - result is that when playing with controller you can blast in and out of the turns without having almost any handicap regarding tyre-threshold. And that is the problem of course, because at the end not only that controller players can have much more stability and traction from the turns, they can also have a greater exit-speed because of the non-existence of the full thread-simulation.



Of course, another variable is 900-degree steering. Both Normal and Simulation modes have the same input-variables for the 900-steering, only difference being is the moment where tyre-thread is reaching its grip-peak (Simulation have a full-realistic simulation of peak, while Normal has it dumbed-down). What it does for your driving is allowing you to naturally steer the vehicle and apply the proper steer and countersteer. However, once controller comes into picture things again changes, because with the wheel have to cope with more than 3X more fidelity in steering-angle (controller have only 270 degree lateral angle), resulting with need to counter-act that fidelity with much more finesse and actual work with the wheel.



Controller players only have to "act" with small movement left-right (steering buffer does the rest for them) and they're out of the apex, whoosh - while you're still fighting with the countersteer.



However, please do not allow that reality of not be able to be 100% competitive against controller players disappoints you. Forza 4 has a stunning physics of tyres, probably best on any console ever, any only real way to experience that physics is by playing with the proper 900 wheel on Simulation setting. Luckily, you have the best wheel imaginable for that, CSRE does a magnificent job in taking advantage of the full physics-simulation of Forza 4 and transmitting them to the player.



The *issue* is 100% at software side, where Turn10 decided to somewhat "sacrifice" reality in favour of playability with decisions to leave the both buffers (longitudinal and lateral) working for controllers and not filtering the steering physics (Normal and Simulation) in any competitive mode of the game.



My personal advice is to just forget all of that and focus on your subjective and personal experience of the game. I have successfully overcome that complete situation in my mind and learned how to enjoy the game for myself. For playing both Career and Rivals modes I use Simulation physics exclusively and having the greatest time in any Forza game ever.



Once I go into online, I just switch to Normal steering (those options are found in the Difficulty menu prior to the race) and usually fight for the mid-tier positions with the rest of the pack.



Be patient and learn to love the sensation, not the performance. Once you overcome the reality of not being able to be equally competitive - but with cognition how your sensation is much better and much immersive than any controller can ever provide - you will start to appreciate both game and CSRE beyond any level imaginable. Regards!
 
I'm sorry, but that's kind of a crock. The type of control buffer FM4 uses exists in practically every console racing game ever (GT1-GT5 all included), and is more or less unavoidable. Any PC game designed to support a gamepad will utilize the same thing. I've played the alternative (Live for Speed allows 1-to-1 joystick control), and unless you're a neurosurgeon you tend to shred the front tires while wobbling all over the track. :dopey:

The steering buffer changes nothing in the tire model -- maximum grip is exactly the same, maximum cornering speeds are exactly the same. And while controller users can take many corners with the joystick pinned, they can never steer any more than that. With the ability to steer "too far," wheel users get the benefit of rotating in some slow corners (particularly in torque-vectoring AWDs like the GT-R) by stomping the throttle and knowing the front wheels will stay pointed where they want.

I don't know why he would complain that wheel users "have to cope" with extra fidelity. They're rewarded with extra fidelity and precision in exchange for spinning a wheel instead of leaning back on the couch and flicking a stick. That "finesse" and muscle exertion is simply what you sign up for when you buy the wheel. Your Xbox should come packaged with a controller already. ;)

One true advantage wheel users get, IMO, is in pedal control. With longer travel on the throttle and actual resistance on the brake pedal, wheel users can enter corners much more confidently with ABS off and exit them with just the right amount of power. If you're "fighting with the countersteer," you've already made a mistake. Even if a corner is best taken with a dab of oversteer at the end, a wheel user can correct it in one motion. All you can do with a controller is nudge the car towards the balance point with spastic flicks and wiggles of the joystick. In higher classes, that wiggling becomes more and more of a handicap.

I don't feel cheated or disadvantaged by playing with a controller. Each device has its advantages and drawbacks, which is why I don't understand this back-and-forth jealousy and indignation.
 
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