FastFurious77
Premium
- 1,823
- England
Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)
- Thread starter espeed623
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- 4,332
SIM steering is not everybody's bag. Just remember the rate at which your wheel normally turns on a controller.. it countersteers nearly twice as fast. So you've got to be very careful with corrections and keep your thumb jammed on the stick in order to hold it at an angle. Comes with a fair amount of practice and patience, but you'll love SIM once you master it, believe me.
M/with clutch: I've given that up altogether.. tried ever button combination, just feels odd. Plus, the downshifting sounds are so wierd.. it's as if there's no bark or oomph coming from the engine as you start engine-braking before a corner.
I'm sure it does and must be GOOD fun. I'll never know how much.
- 14,423
- Los Angeles, CA
- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
Yeah, I just dont see it making me faster around a course so I decided to leave it be. It just seems to unnatural.
I know what you mean, but the layout I chose fits best for me. I took the time to learn it and get it down it down just to get my times to be as fast as they can. Manual w/ clutch can shave literal seconds off your time. Me being a hot lapper, I want to be as fast as I possibly can
- 674
- United States
I play both GT6 and F5 almost regularly and the only redeeming factor of the GT series are the tracks and free content.
There was a video of Mid-Field from gt2-gt6 and the tire screeching was tremendously horrible through out the generations. The engine sounds have gotten better, but for the most part every engine sounds like a high revving 4 cylinder car.
How the GT series can be argued to be better is pretty asinine. Even racing in different settings, its easy to drive fast in GT6. In Forza, racing against highly skilled and above, no abs or TC and only braking lines takes some decent driving.
People have gotten so used to the GT system they automatically deflect and deny other great racing series. I've been a GT fan since GT1, but ever since I got into Forza 4, its not even close!
There was a video of Mid-Field from gt2-gt6 and the tire screeching was tremendously horrible through out the generations. The engine sounds have gotten better, but for the most part every engine sounds like a high revving 4 cylinder car.
How the GT series can be argued to be better is pretty asinine. Even racing in different settings, its easy to drive fast in GT6. In Forza, racing against highly skilled and above, no abs or TC and only braking lines takes some decent driving.
People have gotten so used to the GT system they automatically deflect and deny other great racing series. I've been a GT fan since GT1, but ever since I got into Forza 4, its not even close!
FastFurious77
Premium
- 1,823
- England
Racing in the #007 Racing Aston Martin DBR9 frightened the living daylights out of me. It was controllable with TCS and STM but as soon as i turned these off it was frightening driving with normal steering. God forbid steering mode set to simulation with TCS and STM off would make it next to impossible for me on a controller. I simply have to use traction control and stability management with normal steering mode to handle the throttle around corners. It is possible with them off but you have to be so so careful on a controller.
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- 4,332
Yeah, I just dont see it making me faster around a course so I decided to leave it be. It just seems to unnatural.
I know what you mean, but the layout I chose fits best for me. I took the time to learn it and get it down it down just to get my times to be as fast as they can. Manual w/ clutch can shave literal seconds off your time. Me being a hot lapper, I want to be as fast as I possibly can
Well, since your end-goal here is to improve lap times only, then I'd suggest you stick with normal, as it is faster and more direct (less nuanced).
Exactly my sentiments. I believe GT3 was their last good effort. GT4 kept me busy for quite a while even though FM1 was around at the time. It's not until I played FM2 and 3 that I nearly gave up on GT. After FM4, I finally decided to get rid of the PS3 and GT5!
Oh yeah? That's not particularly encouraging, since I'm planning to get the One just for FM5!
If you're used to tapping or mashing the stick and triggers, forget about mastering the game with a controller. Just get a wheel and pedals.
However, if you DO want to master the really powerful race cars with a controller, you must practice finesse and lots of patience. I imagine its the same qualities you have to master when you learn something like archery or horse riding for example.
Start with the slower cars and work your way up. Start using throttle/brake manipulation and downshifts to maintain your car's direction and speed through a turn.
Adjust your deadzones to 0/100 (these are the best settings that work well for every car in the game) for steering and throttle/brake. You're not on SIM steering, having to use TCS and STM, and losing control when you turn them off, which tells me you're not applying weight transfer principles around turns.
Forza is the kind of game where a fair amount of practice and patience really pays off. You really gotta love the learning curve.
- 1,545
- New Zealand
- MHFanatik
Forza 5 is still an excellent game, but considering FM6 is just 6-7 months away you might as well wait for a bit, I bet MS will have good bundles/discounts when holiday season hits.
- 4,332
I know it sounds VERY tempting, but since I AM picking up the One and getting FM6 for sure, might as well pick up FM5 and H2 just to keep busy till then.
What say?
FastFurious77
Premium
- 1,823
- England
I know it sounds VERY tempting, but since I AM picking up the One and getting FM6 for sure, might as well pick up FM5 and H2 just to keep busy till then.
I'm a real ambassador for Forza 5 is still worth it in my opinion if not for the track count or number of cars but the physics model, graphics and engine sounds and each cars unique character, they really nailed it. Plus all customization and painting you can do is endless hours of fun. I haven't played much of the career mode really, just free driving. But there is Rivals, Leagues and the career mode and a drag racing should you want to mess with that. I'm still messing with figuring out tune setup. 312 cars doesn't sound like much but its an awful lot when you consider just having fun for driving for 15-30 mins or more per car. And a lot of cars are fun to drive as standard. I didn't like Forza 4 physics but I loved everything else. Put in a physics system thats more pleasing in next gen upgraded graphics, car sounds and customization - I'd say its definitely worth it.
- 1,545
- New Zealand
- MHFanatik
If you have the cash then nothing should stop you. Might as well rack up some points on Forza Rewards before FM6 drops.I know it sounds VERY tempting, but since I AM picking up the One and getting FM6 for sure, might as well pick up FM5 and H2 just to keep busy till then.
- 16,488
- Grea'er Laandan
- UKMikeyA
- UKMikeyA
After nearly six months solid playing Forza Horizon 2 I'm taking a break to experience Gran Turismo 6 to see how the other half lives. From an ease of use perspective I really appreciate the auto gearing and power limiter sliders which make it a doddle to use the same car in a lot of different races. I wonder whether this is something T10 should consider although with so many suitable cars and tunes for each event readily available in FM5 I'm not sure it'd be as useful a feature as it seems to be in PD's game.
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- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Details :
YB replica ( Sports Auto 1988 ) GT6 review compared to Assetto Corsa ( default setup, except for increased tire pressure but dropped it down to "Green" track settings - about medium grip out of all the options and +2 degrees celcius ambient temp ) 40/60 distribution 1222kg accurate for both GT6 + AC against real life reference data ( Sport Auto 1988 Review and other sources- RUF/ Porsche books + articles + RUF VIN YB weight plate )
FM5 distribution also included as option in GT6 replica, at 37/63, while FM5 weight at 2662lbs / 1207.5kg was not used.
FM5 distribution also included as option in GT6 replica, at 37/63, while FM5 weight at 2662lbs / 1207.5kg was not used.
- 1,545
- New Zealand
- MHFanatik
This just proves that GT's tire model is a joke.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Stating the obvious, thank you
I can still built the replica in GT6 and got close to AC, and tire model is the main aspect that made GT6 YB not as good as AC YB ( GT6 YB also needs camber to get close to AC cornering speed, the replica has quite some camber based on real life alignment specs ), while FM5 YB needs work to be accurate ( weight and distribution for a start ) If I have FM5, I would have opened a replica garage here too Now, if only AC and FM5 has Tsukuba, I wonder how it will perform to get close to 1:06.12 real life lap record.
- 874
- United Kingdom
The official curb weight of the yellowbird is around 2,580 pounds (1,170 kg), which can depend on where the car is in the world. There are area's of the world that require "additions" to certain cars to make them road legal, and this can affect the weight and overall BHP of the individual vehicle; but not the entire fleet of a particular model. And lets not forget that the curb weight is only a base number of the vehicle in question, and what they "should" have weighed from the factory. Thing is though, it never works out like that. Especially back in the days when this car was built, which still had a lot of the work done by hand. Often meaning no 2 cars where the same weight and power. Even by today's standards with robots building most of the cars, no 2 cars are exactly the same weight and power. Not to mention that all yellowbirds where not built the same, as only around 29 of them where built from scratch at the RUF factory. The rest where customers upgraded 911's.
So ultimately this would make the weight of T10's yellowbird within Forza closer to the real world curb weight than AC and GT6.... according to the information you have posted up that is. But when you consider the overall real world picture, T10s is probably accurate to the version they had to take photo's from, record sounds from, to perhaps even scan, and most definitely weigh and dyno. The same goes for the car that PD had, even though it is clearly a standard car, which really sucks as they could potentially be using old data for the yellowbird: and the same for Kunos with Assetto Corsa.
So ultimately this would make the weight of T10's yellowbird within Forza closer to the real world curb weight than AC and GT6.... according to the information you have posted up that is. But when you consider the overall real world picture, T10s is probably accurate to the version they had to take photo's from, record sounds from, to perhaps even scan, and most definitely weigh and dyno. The same goes for the car that PD had, even though it is clearly a standard car, which really sucks as they could potentially be using old data for the yellowbird: and the same for Kunos with Assetto Corsa.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
You think you got close because you didn't drive the car in AC with a wheel. Driving the YB in AC with a wheel is about as close to driving the YB in GT as a PS4 is to a PS1. To say that a video doesn't do the difference justice would be the understatement of the year.Stating the obvious, thank you
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
The weight I used on GT6 is the test weight measured in 1988 on Alois Ruf personal CTR ( the 1st one ) with MNP 911 plate at 1222kg ( Sport Auto and Auto Motor Und Sport both tested the car and came with 1222kg ). That coincidentally gives very close performance against AC YB. I also used 40/60 distribution as it was stated as the goal when the CTR was built - from old 80's articles, I also read some RUF books to get some more details. The GT6 car model used for YB is MNP 911 car, with single mirror and rear intakes.
Do you know the weight of YB in AC ? I don't know for sure 100%, as I don't have access to AC, I only have few screen shots given by @Lewis_Hamilton_ from his AC YB and it didn't show the actual weight, but car mass ( 1486kg ), sprung ( 1225kg ) and unsprung weight ( 261kg ) - on the track. The replica in GT6 and YB AC at Spa has almost the same shift point, acceleration and speed, while cornering is a bit off due to the GT6 primitive tire model and suspension physics. I have setup the GT6 YB as close as possible to real life spec, including 80% lock LSD and correct gear ratio.
I'm well aware of weight variation, as I have built replicas since more than 3 years ago, but usually the closest to accurate weight is the test weight when running and not manufacturer claim ( Aventador is a prime offender here, just for example )
Not sure what you are getting at, are you saying that I built the replica for nothing ? My main goal was to get close to real life performance within GT6 physics constraints. Not even once I used other games as benchmark, I merely use their data as reference, to see how close they are to real car data that I have gathered. The YB was specifically built and driven at Tsukuba to beat/replicate BM record at 1:06.12 and I limit myself to use real life spring rate and alignment, weight/distribution as well correct LSD lock and gear ratio. I asked @lewis_hamilton- to test drive the replica and give feedback, and he drove it at Spa, and used AC YB as reference. If you read the full review by lewis at my garage you will understand the full picture.
And you are right, I'm on PS1 as I used stick controller on GT6 to build replicas, I must be bad at it and have no knowledge of real life cars and the physics.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Thought it was obvious but I'll restate. If there was a Yellowbird in DriveClub and you matched it's specs with GT and AC, would it also be a replica? When you say you got "close", you got close on paper, that is, you matched the technical specs as input parameters. I'm saying that once you drive the cars in game, the technical specs become irrelevant, all that matters is how the car feels on track and while you can tell they have the similar weight distribution, most of the similarity ends there IMO, in terms of how they feel in game.
- 14,423
- Los Angeles, CA
- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
In his defense, even though I do go against him more often the not, He does try to match everything from shift points, acceleration, cornering speed and what not. How? I dont know. It takes alot of work, but I dont believe in this replica thing either, as its not going to be much when comparing games to games, as no game is set-up the same.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
As I said, on paper you can make the cars identical in any game. Once you actually play the game and the physics of those input parameters come into play, that's when we evaluate whether something is actually being replicated on the track or not. In GT, replicating lap times is meaningless. You just keep changing tires until you get close. In AC you have one tire that's supposed to be the "realistic" tire, and that's it. If they don't get it right, the whole thing is borked. I'm not saying I don't believe in creating a replica, I'm saying the limitation is the physics of the game, the input parameters are only a small part of the equation. You can input all the correct parameters but if the game doesn't deal with those parameters in a realistic way, then the replication is a paper one. Ultimately the steering wheel and your eyes and ears are the judge of how well you replicate something in a videogame.
So yes I agree, Rido makes great statistical replicas as far as the input parameters go. With all due respect, that's only the beginning of truly creating a replica and if the physics aren't there, that's where the similarity ends.
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- 14,423
- Los Angeles, CA
- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
I agree, and that's why I've voice my opinion about it, with him, multiple times.
Not to discredit him though, as he does put in a lot of hard work.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
I simply disagree on the bold part, if that route is taken by game makers, then all hope is lost for accurate simulation. The most important part is to have the car accurately made with as much parameter as possible simulated. Then it's up to the physics engine to deliver the experience. GT6 is not perfect, if I have the YB on driveclub it would also be replica, but with different fidelity ( arcade handling ). I used the term replica to signify the purpose of the setup being made.
Different game has different feel when played, it's up to the user to define how and what kind of 'feel" delivered when they play it. I chose the replica route and even I only have crappy 10 years old DS2 to drive the car, I still have the passion to build more cars so those who are into real life based build can enjoy it too @ALB123, @danbojte, @TurnLeft and few others )
So, AC YB only have one tire ? GT6 is limited in tire model, it has several level of tire grip level to cater casuals and easier to play with. I have to make use of what's given to get the result I expected, it's like fixing an unfinished car build. If you believe what I do is useless ( using lap times as reference for a better car in GT6 ), then should I just use similar path of tune like most GT6 tuners use and stray away from simulating the actual car even further ? When I use lap times of the real car, I set the limit of what's possible in GT6 car, that is one of the key parameter to get realistic performing car, correct ? I even intentionally drive in real life pace. It's like finding which is the simulation tire for each car
AC has that done for you, because they built the car with more accuracy.Is it wrong for me to make these cars better by using real life parameters ?
It's not really a lot of work/driving, it's 80% research ( could be hours of net adventure ), and mostly 100-300km of driving for each car ( including tuning, testing and real life lap hotlaps if applicable ) Mostly real life hot lap are done after a few laps.
I'm not driving in the video, it was @Lewis_Hamilton_, and I still believe replica philosophy is important, and game devs should use that approach to build the cars, saving me some work
GT6 is a nightmare. For matching real life lap, it's all in the mentality, I drive like I would in real life, so pace is natural.
- 14,423
- Los Angeles, CA
- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
Work can be anything from driving, researching, or drawing. You're researching, so you are working.
Thats the thing though, you are making replica's based on your current skill based on someone elses real life skill. If you went and drove these cars in real life you would not be able to match those times at all so does that make it any more realistic or unrealistic? It would be more to real life if you matched your own real life set times, wouldnt it?I'm not driving in the video, it was @Lewis_Hamilton_, and I still believe replica philosophy is important, and game devs should use that approach to build the cars, saving me some work
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
You are asking the question to the wrong person, try ask that to the game devs who tested their cars ( Pcars, GT6 and AC ), their testing process is similar to what I do when test replicas so they can get accurate simulated car in the game ( correct parameter and correct output - feedback, feel and lap time performance ). Imagine if Pcars or AC race cars post lap times seconds faster than real life with no sweat. If they are to go by your reasoning, they should drive the real car and match the real life lap too ? and only race car driver are qualified to test and build replicas.
I'm doing the work that game devs should have done in the first place.
If I am a bad driver as you said I am, then I would need sports hard in GT6 to get YB replica lap in 1:06.12 at Tsukuba, right ? Don't forget I drive with same pace as in RL, that means same braking point, line. If I am an alien driver, I can fit CH and get into 1:05s at Tsukuba, but it will not be the same pace and line as the real lap. This applies to other games too, those leaderboard top driver on Pcars and AC would easily beat real life record and the line + pace won't be the same.
- 14,423
- Los Angeles, CA
- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
That could mean a number of things. The real life driver wasn't the best driver, weather could have not been taking into account on the video games. Does that make the games incorrect? No, it doesnt but at the same time it doesnt make it any more true to life either. You're trying to match times, but the thing is, you are not able to take into account real life discrepancies, on a video game. I dont think you're doing any work for the devs, more so just making cars how you want. Not that it's a problem.
I never said you are a bad driver, I used an example to state that the driver could be miles ahead of you in terms of skill. Still though, the highlighted is what irks me. So you are saying that, even if your car is faster, you'd use the same points of entry, speed, braking points, and match in it's entirety? That just doesnt sound right, at all. You should be driving flat out, at all times.
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