Forza 5/6 vs GT6 (See First Post Before Posting)

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 5' started by espeed623, May 23, 2013.

  1. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    It was originally brought up by @SlipZtrEm as a comparison that if a game on older hardware can have these features, then it would be a safe bet to assume that a game on superior hardware can get it done as well. Enter @Zer0, who comes around at every chance that PD and Forza are mentioned in the same sentence, and in turn make's it a VS thread. Then people end up replying(like me) and it gets dragged out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
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  2. RacerPaul

    RacerPaul

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    That won't wash

    The PS4 is over a year old now, and there's no GT game on it yet? Sony ought to putting feet up bums over at PD
     
  3. TrevorPhilips

    TrevorPhilips

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    Not going to get into the whole GT Forza debate myself because I find it just as boring as what both developers have tried to pass off as racing in their last releases. What I want to say though is to the people talking about framerates.

    If FM6 uses the old method of Forward rendering (Baked lighting/'Cheap' dynamic headlights/Static time) Then it will be a locked 60 for sure, if not then something has gone wrong.

    If FM6 uses Deferred rendering (24 hours/Dynamic lighting/Time progression, whatever you like to call it) Then framerate will not always be a locked 60 as it is a wild beast.

    Personally I would prefer the latter as what it brings to the table in terms of racing dynamics far outweighs what is lost in my opinion.
     
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  4. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    I don't want to enlarge this unnecessarily, like in the previous thread, and sorry I can't care less about a PD vs T10 war in a FM6 thread.

    Just don't know why you insist in that all what I was discussing in the past is confirmed ? or being implemented in FM6. That means that you believe that FM6 will have a full real-time high quality model with dynamic weather on all the tracks at 1080/60, with a full grid of cars on every track (old and new tracks) and in any weather or light condition? with no restrictions or graphic cuts and with a locked framerate? basically a FM5 with the effects of FH2 working in the same dynamic way at 60fps or even with better graphics thanks to the infamous core and dx12? because that was what I discussed.

    If the framedrops are justified and don't affect the gameplay I have no problem with them. You have fear of that slowdowns will happen in FM6?
     
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  5. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    You dont? Then I find it very odd that you did exactly that

    Because you ask for them, and now they say that those things are most likely coming. What the outcome is has yet to be seen obviously, but why would you ask for these things and then shoot them down when they come up when they are introduced? Like I said, you more willing to put down the publisher and the game, if you still complain about the feature's you talk about being implemented now. To what extent, we will soon find out.

    Frame rate drops are never, ever, ever justified. It does effect gameplay, if they are fluctuating around then that definitely will interrupt your inputs. I dont mind a locked framerate even if it is lowered, but fluctuations is what bothers me most. Like I've said a million times.

    No I dont have fear of anything. If there is something wrong, then I will address it when I actually know there is a problem, unlike you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
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  6. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    Framerate Hz and input Hz are a separate thing and rarely interfere one with another, it does not in GT5/6. Often the input Hz is much higher than the screen framerate for a reason specially in steering wheels (up to 500 Hz).

    Anyway you seems more interested in starting a war that to speak about the game. No sure about your last line, do you work at T10 as a programmer?
     
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  7. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    It has more to do with each other then you think. I was not talking about input lag at all so I'm not sure why you brought that up. When frames drop and screen tearing happens, the visual feedback you are getting from the game is not going to be accurate. You can be full lock but because of the lag your getting from the frames your car can still look like you're going straight. You over correct because you think something else is happening, causing you to make a fault. I would call that effecting gameplay, wouldn't you?

    What does any of this have to do with what I said? It's funny that you say that though, when you are the that came in and actually started this(like always, right before you disappear for a month or so) :lol: I'm not starting a war, I'm replying to your ridiculous points.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
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  8. I've played GT5-6 and both titles suffer from framerate drops and screentear(gt5 mostly) and it DOES effect the racing and overall quality of the experience.
     
  9. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    I brought that up because you stated that the framerate will interrupt your inputs, and the framerate is not linked to your controller inputs. Internally in the simulation the controller inputs are updated constantly at a faster rate and independly of the 60 images per second drawn on screen. Even if some frame is not drawn on screen or the screen framerate vary the controls are still working and being updated, not interrupted. I was also not talking about input lag. If the framerate don't dip below 30 fps your example should not be a big problem or nobody could play a 30 fps FM1 or a 30 fps FH2.

    As expected. So, how do you would address any performance slowdowns ocurring in FM6?
    @imported_skidmark But not the control inputs. See above.
     
  10. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    They physically dont interrupt each other in a way that hinders your input Hz, you're correct. Even though I did not mention any thing remotely concerning that.

    If the screen is showing something that is not happening, then it will interrupt your inputs, Why are you pretending it doesnt? Locked frame rates are much different then fluctuating frame rates. That's why when they fluctuate the screen is not accurately showing what is going on. That is whats going to cause your inputs to be off. I really dont understand how you dont get that. You can play Fh2 and 30 fps because the frames ARE NOT lagging, freezing, tearing, and flying all over the place. How you even compare the two is just ridiculous.


    By coming here and discussing it? What are you even asking. You seem to be confusing yourself.



    See above.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
  11. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Staff Emeritus

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    Since zer0 has taken it upon himself to turn another thread into an excuse to proclaim his bias, and there's a versus thread almost exclusively dedicated to his antics, here we are.
     
  12. TrevorPhilips

    TrevorPhilips

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    Wait, why is my post here? I specifically said I don't want to talk GT v Forza... :confused:
     
  13. UKMikey

    UKMikey Premium

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    I think that it's PD have decided to put their feet up instead. Even an announcement regarding GT at E3 would at least put some doubter's minds to rest that the game won't appear as late into the PS4's lifecycle as 5 and 6 did into the PS3's. Right now I'm afraid there's still no real racing reason for me to buy a PS4 in addition to my Xbone and PC.

    In other words: PD take more time and release unfinished game, people say business as usual.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2015
  14. RacerPaul

    RacerPaul

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    Indeed. I used to be a massive GT fan until I decided to hop over to Forza. I'd consider getting a PS4 if GT7 turns out to be the dogs, but I fear it'll be the same old tired formula, just prettier looking
     
  15. UKMikey

    UKMikey Premium

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    Just imagine if Kaz decided to step down or share the reins with someone who believed in real grip physics, tough AI and proper race rules. PS4 owners could have some proper PES/FIFA-style franchise competition between PD and SMS that would put even Xbone's comparative plethora of racing titles to shame and everyone would benefit.
     
  16. RacerPaul

    RacerPaul

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    I think Kaz has his head in the clouds, what with all the overly ambitious and just plain silly stuff that he dreams up. Moon bloody buggy missions? ffs.

    Drop the std cars, get the physics, ai race rules sorted as you say and bob's yer uncle. PD are great at gfx, we all know that but there is more to a driving game that being pretty looking

    Imo they take far too long faffing about between episodes. GT should have an iteration released every two years, 3 years max and regular as clockwork

    They're far too wooly-minded in their approach
     
  17. SimTourist

    SimTourist

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    Horizon 2 uses Forward rendering and has 24 hours dynamic lighting/time progressions, forward or deferred don't mandate the lighting model, just the order in which stuff gets drawn by the engine.
     
  18. TrevorPhilips

    TrevorPhilips

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    At 30 frames per second.. Forward rendering each light source is expensive, no disrespect to FH2 as I don't know the ins and outs and I like the game a lot, but it's not pushing any graphical boundaries with it's engine, even at 30fps. To keep the lighting on par with T10's own standards and others, the only feasible way to go for FM6 on current hardware would be deferred as it's a lot cheaper each draw call. I think it would look worse, run worse or most probably both at 60 fps.

    I do get what your saying but it would be unwise to stick to that route, aesthetically and technically. It would be like panel beating yourself a Ferrari on a Skoda chassis.
     
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  19. SimTourist

    SimTourist

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    Xbone has big issues with deferred rendering because the render targets don't fit into 32mb eSRAM. So that practically eliminates any chance of 1080p. T10 is not going that way. FH2's Forward+ rendering makes thousands of dynamic lights very cheap to render.
     
  20. Tornado

    Tornado

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    Well, you'd have to actually acknowledge that they happen first, so of course you don't.
     
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  21. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    Care to expain your accusation?
     
  22. Tornado

    Tornado

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    Seemed straightforward enough to me.
     
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  23. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    So, no proof just the usual flamebait?
     
  24. Tornado

    Tornado

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    What was GT5's framerate again? I forget.
     
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  25. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    Not locked to 60fps and variable depending of many factors and updates, as it always has been.
     
  26. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    If you acknowledge that it's always and still is a problem that you seem to be ok with, it baffles me why you bombard T10 like you do.
     
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  27. TrevorPhilips

    TrevorPhilips

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    The Dynamic lights they are casting are cheap, because they're using cheap lighting techniques, that's why.

    Playground used Forward+ to simply save time on development. The easiest way to get from A to B with all the assets they have and acquired from T10. To bring it to the levels of what we expect from a game like Forza, Gran Turismo, in terms of looks, Deferred will squeeze through the small cache at 1080p closer to 60fps than Forward+. It was a time choice, not an aesthetic or technical choice.
     
  28. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    I always have guessed that FM6 would be a 60 fps locked game, even with dynamic features. Not sure what do you mean with "bombard". The only thing I have discussed is how difficult would be to fully implement all the expected new real-time features at 1080/60, locked, without quality compromises and in a 2 years short period, and because to T10 the locked 60 fps is a no discussion factor and one of their selling points, contrary to other developers who have more margin to play thanks to the not locked framerates.
     
  29. ImaRobot

    ImaRobot

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    You "bombard" T10 with all these things that they won't be able to do and that they'd have framerate problems and are limited by hardware, when you've done nothing of the sort with PD when we actually know they have a problem with those exact things. You hold PD in high regard, even though they cant even achieve what they are trying to do, yet you put T10 down for them possibly running into the same problems PD did, but you ignore the fact for one publisher, and attack the other. That is why @Tornado brought up that point, and that is exactly why you are extremely biased, even though you pretend that you aren't.

    I mention bombard, because thats exactly what you do. I'm not just talking about this instance that we are in right now from the past week, I'm talking about for ever single time you've posted here in this section, for years. Its the same story every time a Forza game comes around.

    Even if these drawbacks do happen, it shouldn't even really matter to you, since you are already ok with it from other developers. It makes me wonder why you even mention anything in the first place, when all these things you describe already happen in a game you like, and you're fine with it.
     
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  30. HAL20XX

    HAL20XX

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    Because it's what Zero does. He's completely critical of anything and everything T10 does for reasons unknown to most of us. Just look at his post history.

    Edit: Oops, didn't realize this was an post from over a week ago. Sorry for beating a dead horse. :)
     
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