Forza 5 Is A Major Dissapointment, Will DLC Save It?

[drugstorecowboy]

I'm pretty sure neither the reveal trailer or Fallon footage had more than two cars onscreen whereas the full game has 16.

I'd call it a compromise, not a downgrade.

 

[chromatic9]

Yeah, I was trying to keep with most current games. I agree, time of day is great, and is something I liked most about the series.

Codemaster F1 games have good weather which should fit under your selective current bracket. So that's quite a lot of games prior, current and upcoming. Perhaps you forgot some and weren't aware of others or just getting lost in GT and Forza are the only games out, but I don't really care and I'm just pointing out the standards are there, everywhere infact.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Post e3 forza 5 wasn't a downgrade, it was turn 10 finally showing people how the game was actually going to look from the start. E3 forza was run on high end pc's.

 

[ImaRobot]

Codemaster F1 games have good weather which should fit under your selective current bracket. So that's quite a lot of games prior, current and upcoming. Perhaps you forgot some and weren't aware of others or just getting lost in GT and Forza are the only games out, but i don't really care and i'm just pointing out the standards are there, everywhere infact.

How many of which have accomplished it at 1080p/60fps? What I was making my whole point about. Most I'm finding are 30fps.

 

[TheCrazySwede]

Boy, this thread is heating up!

I still play GTR2 and iRacing most of the time...and those games don't have any of the graphics and eye candy that FM or GT have these days.

Keep in mind, lads, that Microsoft wanted FM5 to be a launch title. In other words, a console seller. As unfortunate as this might sound, I believe getting the game to look good on screen was a very high priority for Turn 10 this time around...more so than it has ever done before. Causal gamers don't care about telemetry data or whether or not you can hear the Weber Carbs opening up on a '62 250 GTO. Visuals is another way for a console manufacturer to flex its muscles.

I am sure T10 will deliver, and then some, with FM6. These guys are great and very passionate about what they do. If they managed this well with FM5, given its intentions and development, then I am sure they well do a great job with FM6.

No need to start cutting each other's throats over this subject....we are all petrol heads, here

 

[Zer0]

I have a bias toward racing games, unlike you who seem to only blatantly attack a company for faults they havent even commited yet, but you praise one for releasing faulty content. That is exactly why we say you are biased.

Attack mode...

I know all about that, as I've already said. So thats something that you would want in the game? 3d crowds? You discredit them for not spending time to get major things working or implemented, but you're going to get mad that they didnt spend time on 3d modeled crowds? That is one thing we should all be glad isnt implemented, as those small resources can be used in other departments, say, like the weather you want in the game.

Being defensive about a fact that proves that T10 needed to downgrade its game because performance issues.

PD have managed to release a fraction of a game completed, not release features that are actually labeled on the retail box, and push the hardware so hard that it can hardly function and use these features to the fullest. Dont get me wrong, I'm hoping with the more powerful hardware they can fix all these problems, but there track record is far from great, or anything to look up to.

Time will tell , PD did a major technically upgrading in the franchise during the PS3 period and most of the actual features are meant for a more powerful hardware, so PS4 will fit very well with not major changes. And there are always the big forgotten in these cases, GT3 and GT4. Before any Forza existed PD were very well known for their rock steady 60 fps games, even FM1 was a 30fps game. PS4 should normalize the framerate situation of PS3 even not being a game change feature, but the resources this time are there.

Thats not what I was arguing. The game plays the same no matter what content is being used, unlike its competitor.

Not sure what do you mean.

haha, no not technically. Its all we have, you're correct, it doesnt necessarily mean its the best. Its obvious that its faulty, and doesnt work as intended. So just because nothing else is available, it doesnt automatically make something horrible, good. The thing is, its not at 60 or 30, its all over the damn place which is always worse than being locked at a certain FPS.

The reference for the realistic weather was Driveclub, not GT6. Is easy to see how a new hardware in good hands can help to render things to a new level.

At the same time, FM without time or weather did not mean FH without time or weather either. Its also very reasonable to suspect that they have not even reached the pinnacle of what the Xbox one has to offer, considering we are in the first year of it being released, isnt it?

Well you can fantasize with anything you want meanwhile enter into a reasonable posibility, but in this case it's more "against" than "for" if you look at what happened in the past. I can't ignore that fact. About the rest, if T10 would have not needed to downgrade the actual FM5 it could help a little to build confidence in the posibility of a new super optimized real-time engine capable of what is doing FH2 at double of its framerate, and without any issue. But is not the case, so of course that within the time the same hardware will bring more punch but I don't think that much with just a pair of years, specially knowing that the development time of FM5 was of 4 years.

http://www.examiner.com/article/for...ago-even-before-we-shipped-forza-motorsport-4

But is not just a hardware issue, as I have explained in the previous post adding those features would require the major revamp in the internals of the series since FM1, and that requires time to research, addapt, test and polish and all that out of he T10 comfort zone, with no warranties of how will end the game. Something that don't think match very well with its conservationism, specially looking at how they have expended the 4 years in FM5.

 

[BoneSawTX]

Boy, this thread is heating up!

I still play GTR2 and iRacing most of the time...and those games don't have any of the graphics and eye candy that FM or GT have these days.

Keep in mind, lads, that Microsoft wanted FM5 to be a launch title. In other words, a console seller. As unfortunate as this might sound, I believe getting the game to look good on screen was a very high priority for Turn 10 this time around...more so than it has ever done before. Causal gamers don't care about telemetry data or whether or not you can hear the Weber Carbs opening up on a '62 250 GTO. Visuals is another way for a console manufacturer to flex its muscles.

I am sure T10 will deliver, and then some, with FM6. These guys are great and very passionate about what they do. If they managed this well with FM5, given its intentions and development, then I am sure they well do a great job with FM6.

No need to start cutting each other's throats over this subject....we are all petrol heads, here

I have GT-GT5, The old Toca Games, NASCAR Thunder 2004, Super Truck Racing, Andretti Racing, Le Mans 24 Hours, Forza 2-5 and the only I touch is FM5. I haven't picked up GT since November of 2012, FM is so much better I can't enjoy the others as much if at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CXyovXho2BA#t=15

sums that up

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Boy, this thread is heating up!

I still play GTR2 and iRacing most of the time...and those games don't have any of the graphics and eye candy that FM or GT have these days.

Keep in mind, lads, that Microsoft wanted FM5 to be a launch title. In other words, a console seller. As unfortunate as this might sound, I believe getting the game to look good on screen was a very high priority for Turn 10 this time around...more so than it has ever done before. Causal gamers don't care about telemetry data or whether or not you can hear the Weber Carbs opening up on a '62 250 GTO. Visuals is another way for a console manufacturer to flex its muscles.

I am sure T10 will deliver, and then some, with FM6. These guys are great and very passionate about what they do. If they managed this well with FM5, given its intentions and development, then I am sure they well do a great job with FM6.

No need to start cutting each other's throats over this subject....we are all petrol heads, here

You see throat cutting, I just see a lively thread

 

[dice1998]

Time will tell , PD did a major technically upgrading in the franchise during the PS3 period and most of the actual features are meant for a more powerful hardware, so PS4 will fit very well with not major changes.

I must have missed the PD/Kaz statement about this. Mind linking me?

Also, when you use one of my screenies, you are to credit me.

 

[VXR]

I don't get this notion of Horizon 2's weather likely being basic. They've modelled the atmosphere that makes the weather change. It's not just switch rain on, switch rain off according to what they've said.

 

[Zer0]

I must have missed the PD/Kaz statement about this. Mind linking me?

Also, when you use one of my screenies, you are to credit me.

Sorry didn't know that was yours, I saved the first image I saw from google images.

The statment from Kaz was with the premium cars, but that was before GT5 and things have evolved to some incredible technologies in GT6 like adaptive tesellation. Digital Foundry write about all that.

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/
https://www.gtplanet.net/digital-foundry-finds-gran-turismo-6-pushes-ps3-to-the-limit/

 

[dice1998]

Sorry didn't know that was yours, I saved the first image I saw from google images.

Weird. When I reverse image-searched the image, nothing came up.

The statment from Kaz was with the premium cars, but that was before GT5 and things have evolved to some incredible technologies in GT6 like adaptive tesellation. Digital Foundry write about all that.
https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/
https://www.gtplanet.net/digital-foundry-finds-gran-turismo-6-pushes-ps3-to-the-limit/

I see.

 

[Imari]

@Imari the thing is though if the frame rate was lowered things like the physics could be a lot more advanced, which is a better step towards simulation than high frame rate. I just feel there are millions of very good reasons to lower the fps, but only one reason to keep it the same.

Is it? To take it to a logical extreme, the most accurate physics in the world are no use if you can only play at 1fps. There needs to be a balance between accuracy of physics and fluidity of display. You appear to be an exception, but it's pretty widely accepted at this point that for games where reflex or rhythm is important, 60fps is an important factor.

To bring it back to something more reasonable, there's no point having hyper-realistic physics if you can't take advantage of them. If the frame rate is lower, you have less time to react to what the physics engine is doing. It's harder to race wheel to wheel, it takes longer to get three frames to interpret how an opponent is moving. 60fps delivers those in less time.

I feel that most aspects of racing are affected in one way or another by framerate, and while you could use extra computational power to boost one or another of those aspects, a high framerate gives advantages to everything. It also can let you save on other things so it's not quite as computationally expensive as it might seem. For example, AA and motion blur are less crucial at high frame rates.

It's by no means a given that the game would be better at a lower frame rate with better physics. It's possible that it could end up being no better, or worse. Besides, the area of physics that really sucks computational power at this point appears to be tyre models, which is something that only serious sim racers seem to be able to distinguish between. Witness the amount of people who thought GT5's tyre "model" was great.

I don't think dropping to 30fps to implement a better tyre model will be perceptible to the sort of people that wouldn't notice the drop from 60 to 30. All you'll do is irritate the hardcore, who would likely rather a decent tyre model at 60 than a superb one at 30.

Until something better appears, the best reallistic weather visuals are there, no matter if are at 30 or 60 fps, and that will be the reference to beat to other games and reviews. Will see what can deliver GT7 and FM6 and who ends closer, or can surpass, that reference.

Nope. Best on console goes to NfS: Rivals, or Codemasters F1 201x. Likely contenders are going to be Driveclub and Horizon 2. To be judged when they come out, because just as you've pointed out that things changed in FM5 between demo versions and release, the exact same thing can happen to DC and FH2. Hell, even GT5 rain looked substantially different on release to the teaser trailers we got before release, if I recall.

How many of which have accomplished it at 1080p/60fps? What I was making my whole point about. Most I'm finding are 30fps.

Nobody has time or weather at 60fps, and that's entirely the point. Everything is below 60fps, and so everything is comparable. There are heaps and heaps of games with one or the other between current and last gen. There are a few with both.

If FM6 were to do either at 60fps, that would be a first.

 

[chromatic9]

How many of which have accomplished it at 1080p/60fps? What I was making my whole point about. Most I'm finding are 30fps.

Well you said many things like

And what you seem to be doing, is prioritizing weather over a steady playable frame rate. See how that works? Adding or removing a fancy feature is risky business, but I'd rather have something not be there, then to have it and not work as intended.

Fluctuating frame rate is much worse than a set locked FPS, weather it be 30 or 60 fps. I dont usually mind FPS either way, but being locked is much more desirable.

I find it hard to believe that you've never once encountered frame rate issues on any game. They are blatently obvious when they occur, they hinder your input and accuracy greatly.

If you dont realize what happens when something like that happens, then that could be understandable that you think the way you do. If you happen to get fluctuating FPS during a race, then that can be something can very well send you off track flying into a wall because it isnt registering your inputs as smooth as it should be, but more so as if you are slamming the stick one direction repeatedly.

There is no game out currently that has weather besides GT, and it hasnt really even set a high standard with that. Until Forza Horizon and Drive club come out, we have no idea how its actually going to wind up. We have videos of it, but thats it.
.

I told you some games that have weather and then you say current games, (which doesn't matter anyway but somehow GT5 release date is current line in the sand) I then list a current game now you say 1080p60fps is your whole mantra and you cite GT5 over and over which is quite old and no game we're on about in this genre was 1080p on 360/PS3.

Anyway, lets forget goal posts.

Will be interesting to see what they can do with Forza 6 while keeping 60fps. I wonder would they dare to go 30fps for weather races or use a varible frame rate like Gran Turismo or drop down the resolution.
Pcars is targeting 1080p/60fps but of course this means nothing until we actually get hold of the game.

Nuts and bolts are 60fps weather is possible but at what cost elsewhere.

Goood thing about PC is I can run F1 weather at 1080p/60fps with ease.

 

[ImaRobot]

Attack mode...

actually no, that was more of pointing out the obvious.

Being defensive about a fact that proves that T10 needed to downgrade its game because performance issues.

defensive about what? I was simply replying and asking you a serious question, one that you seem to avoid.

Time will tell , PD did a major technically upgrading in the franchise during the PS3 period and most of the actual features are meant for a more powerful hardware, so PS4 will fit very well with not major changes. And there are always the big forgotten in these cases, GT3 and GT4. Before any Forza existed PD were very well known for their rock steady 60 fps games, even FM1 was a 30fps game. PS4 should normalize the framerate situation of PS3 even not being a game change feature, but the resources this time are there.

that's good, and I hope that's the case because they have alot of redeeming to do, and now this is there opportunity to remind everyone why they used o be considered the top.

So they used to be able to make a game function properly? What happened?

The reference for the realistic weather was Driveclub, not GT6. Is easy to see how a new hardware in good hands can help to render things to a new level.

Unless you were able to play the full game somehow before its release than I don't know why you'd make the comparison yet. It does look pretty, but so do lots of things for any game before they are released. You actually just mentioned that about FM, and that is something that a lot of game developers do.

Well you can fantasize with anything you want meanwhile enter into a reasonable posibility, but in this case it's more "against" than "for" if you look at what happened in the past.

im trying to, but you dont seem to like that I do.

I can't ignore that fact.

Yet you're perfectly fine with ignoring the problems that plague GT.

About the rest, if T10 would have not needed to downgrade the actual FM5 it could help a little to build confidence in the posibility of a new super optimized real-time engine capable of what is doing FH2 at double of its framerate, and without any issue. But is not the case, so of course that within the time the same hardware will bring more punch but I don't think that much with just a pair of years, specially knowing that the development time of FM5 was of 4 years.

How long was GT5 in development? And what did they manage to bring to the table? GT5 has been considered the start of the downward slope. I've never played before that so I wouldn't be able to say, but I've heard nothing but praise from the iterations before. Not so much of GT5 or 6

But is not just a hardware issue, as I have explained in the previous post adding those features would require the major revamp in the internals of the series since FM1, and that requires time to research, addapt, test and polish and all that out of he T10 comfort zone, with no warranties of how will end the game. Something that don't think match very well with its conservationism, specially looking at how they have expended the 4 years in FM5.

And FM5 is the first step in that direction. They took a big risk with all te cuts and drawbacks they made. No game company will know exactly how the final product will be so how is that something against them?

Well you said many things like

I told you some games that have weather and then you say current games, (which doesn't matter anyway but somehow GT5 release date is current line in the sand) I then list a current game now you say 1080p60fps is your whole mantra and you cite GT5 over and over which is quite old and no game we're on about in this genre was 1080p on 360/PS3.

Anyway, lets forget goal posts.

you seem to care more then you initially let off I mentioned GT5 at first because that's all I had experience with. I went on to research to see if GT6 had te same problems, which I found they did, that's when I started talking about GT6 and FM5.

@chromatic9 in case you missed it, this is initially when I switched to the more current gt6

Looking up GT6 weather issues I find this




http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/df-gt6-pushed-the-ps3-to-it-s-absolute-limit-31089016/

I guess it hasnt changed. So my opinion still holds for Gt6.

 

[ImaRobot]

Whoops dp

 

[Brend]

And I FTFY

Did you really just dismiss my point because there's hardware modification available on the PC format? I don't even know what to say about that. It just sounds stupid.

60FPS should be the benchmark by which all racing games should try their absolute hardest to replicate. As a very ,very competitive WipEout player, I can confirm HD Fury is made by it's frame-rate. For many racers, it's the exact same. I feel bad that you can't see the difference it makes, because 60FPS is an absolute game changer when it's locked.

 

[Speedster911]

Yeah, I was trying to keep with most current games. I agree, time of day is great, and is something I liked most about the series.

You can thank their lighting engine for that. One of the best in business. 👍

Codemaster F1 games have good weather which should fit under your selective current bracket. So that's quite a lot of games prior, current and upcoming. Perhaps you forgot some and weren't aware of others or just getting lost in GT and Forza are the only games out, but I don't really care and I'm just pointing out the standards are there, everywhere infact.

Right, so this is not the right thread, but I'm going to ask you quickly: is the latest Codies F1 game on X360 worth it? How are the physics? Do the cars sound exactly like their real-life versions? Frame rate remains steady at 30 fps?

Boy, this thread is heating up!

I still play GTR2 and iRacing most of the time...and those games don't have any of the graphics and eye candy that FM or GT have these days.

Keep in mind, lads, that Microsoft wanted FM5 to be a launch title. In other words, a console seller. As unfortunate as this might sound, I believe getting the game to look good on screen was a very high priority for Turn 10 this time around...more so than it has ever done before. Causal gamers don't care about telemetry data or whether or not you can hear the Weber Carbs opening up on a '62 250 GTO. Visuals is another way for a console manufacturer to flex its muscles.

I am sure T10 will deliver, and then some, with FM6. These guys are great and very passionate about what they do. If they managed this well with FM5, given its intentions and development, then I am sure they well do a great job with FM6.

No need to start cutting each other's throats over this subject....we are all petrol heads, here

SALUTE! *chest puffed out, eyes forward*

You see throat cutting, I just see a lively thread

Lively, yeah!

I don't get this notion of Horizon 2's weather likely being basic. They've modelled the atmosphere that makes the weather change. It's not just switch rain on, switch rain off according to what they've said.

From the videos I've seen, the weather mechanics seem impressive. Looking forward to the review.

Did you really just dismiss my point because there's hardware modification available on the PC format? I don't even know what to say about that. It just sounds stupid.

60FPS should be the benchmark by which all racing games should try their absolute hardest to replicate. As a very ,very competitive WipEout player, I can confirm HD Fury is made by it's frame-rate. For many racers, it's the exact same. I feel bad that you can't see the difference it makes, because 60FPS is an absolute game changer when it's locked.

Frame rate is absolutely a deciding factor. I can't imagine games like Wipeout, Tekken, Forza or COD being playable at 30 fps. Anybody remember Donky Kong Country on the SNES? The game was not only ridiculously playable but also set a revolution in terms of graphics, running at a locked 60 fps.. the game's fluidity also made it super-playable!

I'm hoping to see the majority of games coming out on consoles this generation at a locked 60 fps. It's about time. The gap between console and PC hardware must be bridged to a certain limit, if not completely.

And devs must realize 60 fps DO make games more playable and responsive, adding an element of real life to it. Another major advantage: less eye strain.

 

[imported_skidmark]

@GranTurismoGuy you think they can do more with physics if the game was a locked 30fps? What planet are you on?.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

@GranTurismoGuy you think they can do more with physics if the game was a locked 30fps? What planet are you on?.

It frees up a load of power, show me that it can't then.

 

[imported_skidmark]

It frees up a load of power, show me that it can't then.

With a 60fps game they can fit a lot more information into each frame actually double!!!! That of 30fps. Yes if they were to have it at 30fps they could add a lot more visual effects but the handling would be far worse.

 

[Speedster911]

^^ 30 fps for a realistic driving game or even a shooter, is a bad BAD idea to begin with.

Example: I love the mechanics in MOH and BF, but they simply lack the fluidity and "real time" responsiveness of COD.

Another example: even though GA and Dirt 3 are locked at a consistent 30 fps, the driving simply doesn't have that feel to it as is the case with Forza/GT because.. oh you guessed it.. 60 fps!

 

[VXR]

The cycle of the physics engine and screen refresh rate are independent aren't they?

 

[BoneSawTX]

With a 60fps game they can fit a lot more information into each frame actually double!!!! That of 30fps. Yes if they were to have it at 30fps they could add a lot more visual effects but the handling would be far worse.

Yea but it will look good, and that equals a better sim...

 

[Speedster911]

The cycle of the physics engine and screen refresh rate are independent aren't they?

Yes. The game refreshes physics 360 times a second according to T10. The screen refreshes at 60 frames a second.

I doubt if Forza's seriously good physics can be accomplished at 30 fps. That would mean slowing down the physics computations as well, even though they are independent. Higher frames make for better physics calculations.

You would not particularly enjoy the fluid and life-like animation in a game like say, Tekken, if it were 30 fps.

 

[imported_skidmark]

The cycle of the physics engine and screen refresh rate are independent aren't they?

Having 60 fps means more input with control (needed for racers) dropping it to 30 fps would give us less control. You could have the same physics in a 30fps game as you do in a 60fps game but ud be getting half the input,so its pointless pushing the physics side of things on a 30fps game.

 

[Speedster911]

^^ Precisely. That's it right there. 👍

 

[imported_skidmark]

Yea but it will look good, and that equals a better sim...

A better 'it looks real sim' no thanks!! I prefer a game to look like a game.

 

[Speedster911]

30 fps driving games feel like you're stuck in a dream. It makes your eyes strain after a while.

60 fps gives a much better impression of actual 'movement and motion' you see.

Been a PC gamer?

 

[HAL20XX]

PS4 should normalize the framerate situation of PS3 even not being a game change feature, but the resources this time are there.

It's funny that you give PD a free pass when it comes to past behavior. In their last 2 games, PD chose graphics over performance.