Forza 5 physics vs GT6 аnd other sims

[FuzzyFassbender]

Except that it's totally possible for one car to have very realistic handling, and the other to be completely boatlike, and they still set the same lap time because of other factors.

You're assuming that everything apart from the handling is equal, and it's just not. Lap times are an awful way to judge handling.

Of course, but I have to believe the developers, developers trying to simulate IRL, gauge their design of cars and tracks to be "somewhat" relative, if not the finished product will end up being a Ridge Racer.

 

[SciroccoRich]

...even in real life if you ignore the NVH stuff going on (or just have a really well insulated car) and just focus on the visual information you're getting, even barrelling along at 200kmph doesn't feel very fast on a wide open track after the first couple of times. 100kmph is actually pretty damn slow. And anything under 50 feels like walking pace.

I kind of get what you're saying, like when you come off a motorway onto a slip road having done *cough* MPH and find yourself speeding in a 30 by complete accident. It does take a while to sensitise yourself back to normal speeds again. The biggest problem when comparing real life to games is obviously that there are SO many more sensations in real life racing, spacial awareness I've found to be one of the big ones! The lateral g having to tense your stomach up etc. too. The problem I find with Forza, is that there is no feeling at any point - whether you've been doing 20 and speed up to 100 or you've been doing 100 and slow down to 20, it all feels the same and it has infuriated me to the point where I can no longer be bothered playing the game.

I am not doubting your assessment, what is funny is I have always felt the opposite - FM to me has the greater sense of speed than GT. This makes me believe we are both wrong and both right - it comes down to familiarity and preferences. As long as we can have fun, the rest doesn't matter much!

Yeah I guess that's the thing isn't it. These subjective things are all down to you personally and how I feel in a game is different to you.

 

[SciroccoRich]

Of course, but I have to believe the developers, developers trying to simulate IRL, gauge their design of cars and tracks to be "somewhat" relative, if not the finished product will end up being a Ridge Racer.

I think the biggest problem is that the developers need to have some form of objective benchmark in order to calibrate handling characteristics of various cars and realistically the best way of "measuring" how well a car handles is via a laptime. Otherwise you'd get peoples opinion involved and we all know that if you involve opinion in a game (or anything really), which really is based on loads of numbers and algorithms etc, everything will go to hell as everyone has different opinions.

 

[McLaren]

I said it handles like a 70s muscle car on leaf springs, boat is only part right.

LOL only acceleration, nice lies buddy.

I'm sorry you can't accept the truth. Pretty obvious reason why most Supras are modified for drag racing, though.

Even the Sub 3000lbs NSX or 2800lbs Rx7 did not best the 3400lbs Supra.

Tested by motor trend better slalom skidpad and breaking then NSX, RX7, 300zx, 3000GT, 911 Turbo 3.6, Vett Zr1, Viper Rt/10, Espirit Turbo

That's a slalom test, kiddo. On the track, the Supra was nowhere near a match for the NSX because the Honda had the superior chassis setup.

By the way iv never seem any one claim R34 as light as the Supra. Iv seen owner tested wet weight of 3500 for the Supra and around 2700lbs for the R34 GTR. Even its owner say its a tank, saying spec sheet said 1660kg. Lot of R34 variants though. Early R32 were lightest, lacked some safety beam in doors or somewhere if I'm not mistaken.

Uh, what?

Never the less, I'm referring to the curb weight of both cars. Not that it much matters because the GT-R is carrying an AWD system in it, that made it the complete opposite of a "tank". It & the NSX were remarkably well known for being the best handling Japanese cars of the 90's.

 

[V12orchestra]

judging on videos , i can say that gt6 looks more realistic about handling (i don't have forza 5 but i am playing gt6) however there is something about gt6 that i hate a lot...when you lose the control of your car with no TC its not possible to take it back on the correct way and that could be realistic but not so funny when that happens in online racing...in forza 5 on the other hand we can control perfectly the tail of the car during oversteer

 

[McLaren]

judging on videos , i can say that gt6 looks more realistic about handling (i don't have forza 5 but i am playing gt6) however there is something about gt6 that i hate a lot...when you lose the control of your car with no TC its not possible to take it back on the correct way and that could be realistic but not so funny when that happens in online racing...in forza 5 on the other hand we can control perfectly the tail of the car during oversteer

Perhaps if you keep STM & TCS on, sure. Otherwise, it's not hard at all to create lift-off oversteer & lose control of the car as it fishtails before you can regain control. GT6 according to some here, exaggerates lift-off oversteer too much with certain tires & not at all with others.

 

[SciroccoRich]

judging on videos , i can say that gt6 looks more realistic about handling (i don't have forza 5 but i am playing gt6) however there is something about gt6 that i hate a lot...when you lose the control of your car with no TC its not possible to take it back on the correct way and that could be realistic but not so funny when that happens in online racing...in forza 5 on the other hand we can control perfectly the tail of the car during oversteer

Biggest problem is that it's REALLY easy to over-correct using a pad. Don't forget that complete lock-to-lock is dispatched, exceptionally easily with a pad. In reality you'd have far more control. So it probably is realistic, it's just you are over correcting. Not that I'm any better - I do the same ALL the time!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Perhaps if you keep STM & TCS on, sure. Otherwise, it's not hard at all to create lift-off oversteer & lose control of the car as it fishtails before you can regain control. GT6 according to some here, exaggerates lift-off oversteer too much with certain tires & not at all with others.

Of course, you know what else would probably help?

judging on videos , i can say that gt6 looks more realistic about handling (i don't have forza 5 but i am playing gt6)

 

[VXR]

Haha, I think it's funny to see Forza 5 considered too easy to regain control. It's totally unforgiving on the pad, even with a car you're used to.

 

[UkHardcore23]

Haha, I think it's funny to see Forza 5 considered too easy to regain control. It's totally unforgiving on the pad, even with a car you're used to.

Yeah finding that, Most likely they have not changed to sim steering.

 

[Khyber]

sim steering is inaccurate mess though. imo with controller

 

[Tornado]

I wasn't having too much trouble with controlling drifts and whatnot when I played, and I'm pretty sure I turned all the aids off except ABS...

 

[VXR]

The inertia can easily force the car into a spin when you correct it, which makes the times you do get it back all the sweeter.

 

[HAL20XX]

I put a few hours into GT6 today and controlling a spin on the controller is a hot mess. However, I can't really say if it's realistic or not. It does seem a bit exaggerated.

 

[V12orchestra]

what i am trying to say is that some cars seems to be totally undriveable , for example i have tuned a nissan 240 sx . i have put on it racing tyres , suspensions and race brakes...when i am driving on every corner without tc you can't control the understeer , it is a hell to drive.

 

[YakieS1]

what i am trying to say is that some cars seems to be totally undriveable , for example i have tuned a nissan 240 sx . i have put on it racing tyres , suspensions and race brakes...when i am driving on every corner without tc you can't control the understeer , it is a hell to drive.

When faced with corner entry understeer, you have a variety of options:
1) Brake sooner, enter the turn slower and a little later, and try for a late apex to get the power down early (since your car is prob nice and tight on exit)
2) Soften front springs and damping, to promote weight transfer to the front under braking.
3) Increase (or maybe decrease, you'll have to try both) rear diff decel setting.
4) wider front tires, but this may aggravate turn exit oversteer.

Good luck!

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

In F5 you have to screw with the controller to make it better, whats the best set up ? deadzones are an issue.

I prefer PS controller, could be years of using it going back to PS1 and Gt1.

Here is were I am struggling, the PS3 controller cramps up my hands something terrible... using the L2/R2 for brake/accelerator (shifting with X/O). The PS3 controller seems designed for small hands and while my hands aren't overly large the Xbox controller rests against my palms making it very comfortable to apply pressure to the L2/R3 buttons without fighting the controller. I will keep experimenting as I seem to remember getting use to the PS3 controller when I played racing games more often on my PS3. I want to enjoy GT6 but the controller is getting in the way.

...
Don's use traction control, I don't think the real Supra use it when setting the lap time at Laguna, and the lap is in 1:45s range. I have 1:47s in GT6 with comfort medium, 325HP stock, no ABS or other aids. I suggest you to collect some credits and buy the Supra in GT6, do not change oil, leave it as is, fit comfort medium, run it at Laguna, let me know how it compares to FM5 Make sure to set grip to real in course settings and use only ABS or not if you are up to it

Remind me again why I should use "comfort medium" and "no aids" for the Supra... @MVKSupra started my tinkering when mentioning how stable (mounds of traction) the Supra is IRL and that GT6 replicates that much better than FM5 (@MKVSupra - "F5 does a piss poor job of simulating the Supras characteristics"). If I use your suggestions the Supra is a handful, breaking tires loose if I even think about about getting on the gas under 50 MPH (in 3rd gear!). Now I have never driven a Supra IRL (well maybe a test drive in the 80's) but my BMW 135i doesn't feel like I need to drive like I am on ice.
I am not comparing GT and FM at this point, just trying to replicate an IRL car's characteristics in a game. I can make any car hard or easy to drive in either game, why is making it hard closer to reality? If I drive a 135i I would need to use ABS and TC to simulate the feel of my car IRL. Even without TC, my 135i is much grippier than these games without.

In GT6 with Sports/Hard and ABS=1 the Supra seems to to be similar in racing difficulty to the Supra in FM5 with only ABS, not sure on the tires as I rented the Supra but I assume T10 tries to replicate factory fitted tires by default.

I can throw the Supra around in GT6 and FM5, why someone would say it handles like a boat in FM is very hard to understand where they are coming from.

 

[UKMikey]

judging on videos , i can say that gt6 looks more realistic about handling (i don't have forza 5 but i am playing gt6) however there is something about gt6 that i hate a lot...when you lose the control of your car with no TC its not possible to take it back on the correct way and that could be realistic but not so funny when that happens in online racing...in forza 5 on the other hand we can control perfectly the tail of the car during oversteer

what i am trying to say is that some cars seems to be totally undriveable , for example i have tuned a nissan 240 sx . i have put on it racing tyres , suspensions and race brakes...when i am driving on every corner without tc you can't control the understeer , it is a hell to drive.

I don't get it... are cars in Forza too easy to control or too hard to control? And was this all judged from watching videos?

Personally when I can't drive a car without traction control (RUF Yellowbird, I'm looking at you) I switch TCS on. Alternatively as I'm not a great tuner I search the tunes database for something that suits my driving style better.

[EDIT]I read your posts again and I think I get it now. The car is a hell to drive in real life and therefore should be in FM5. I guess that makes a change from the Supra game who says his car is easier to drive in real life than in Forza but it does illustrate that criticisms of the handling model are often subjective.

 

[V12orchestra]

I don't get it... are cars in Forza too easy to control or too hard to control? And was this all judged from watching videos?

Personally when I can't drive a car without traction control (RUF Yellowbird, I'm looking at you) I switch TCS on. Alternatively as I'm not a great tuner I search the tunes database for something that suits my driving style better.

[EDIT]I read your posts again and I think I get it now. The car is a hell to drive in real life and therefore should be in FM5. I guess that makes a change from the Supra game who says his car is easier to drive in real life than in Forza but it does illustrate that criticisms of the handling model are often subjective.

in forza cars seems to be more "in control" of the player in understeer. if you lose control in gt6 it's really hard to keep the car on road with ds3.
drive the audi r18 without tc and you will understand what i mean

 

[Hermanvongerman]

All the technique I have learn IRL I apply to FM5 (Weight transfer, trail breaking, smooth throttle control, turn apex, how to deal with oversteer/understeer). So don't come here and tell me its not relevant. How do you know if a car behave like it should, if you actually never done it in real life.

If you haven't played FM5 with a wheel, you have not a real idea how the physics really "feels" in FM5. non-tune car do drive like crap like a most car that hasn't been tuned for racing.

That's the point isn't it?

Good work, thank you for winning the debate for me.

If you have to tune your cars to get them to drive like their real life counter parts then that is counter intuitive, to this debate around FM5 physics vs GT6.

Both games have flaws, just so happens that FM5 has poor handling characteristics and because you spent alot of money on it by having to buy that terrible console your upset which is understandable when you could have paid for a track day in your 'Stang so you can tell everyone how good you are at actually driving it rather than leaving in your driveway and driving the same car in game....

 

[BoneSawTX]

That's the point isn't it?

Good work, thank you for winning the debate for me.

If you have to tune your cars to get them to drive like their real life counter parts then that is counter intuitive, to this debate around FM5 physics vs GT6.

Both games have flaws, just so happens that FM5 has poor handling characteristics and because you spent alot of money on it by having to buy that terrible console your upset which is understandable when you could have paid for a track day in your 'Stang so you can tell everyone how good you are at actually driving it rather than leaving in your driveway and driving the same car in game....

I've gone through and tried to see where you're coming from and I'm lost. You're saying cars handle like boats stock and complain about it and declare that makes GT6 better and more realistic. Symtex comes back says of course most cars are going to handle like crap since they aren't tuned for racing. So you say that proves your point that FM5 has an inferior physics model. Is that you Kaz/translator?

The part about tuning cars to handle like they do in real life applies to GT6 and having to find the right fake tire setup. I haven't seen anyone say you have to tune a car in FM5 to get it to behave like the true counterpart. I see plenty of that about GT6. As for a car driving the same in FM5, the 2002 Camaro drives identical to mine. I couldn't even drive them in any of the GT's due to it being so far from the real thing and sounding like an angry blender.

I really feel sorry for the GT guys that have bought in to kaz's real driving simulator and just keep buying it blindly.

 

[SciroccoRich]

I really feel sorry for the GT guys that have bought in to kaz's real driving simulator and just keep buying it blindly.

Poor show. Same can be said for Xbox Fanboys that constantly bang on about how great Forza is. Can't both sets of fanboys just accept that at the minute there are two excellent driving sims out there and both are good in certain ways and bad in others?

I've got a VW Scirocco in real life and in Forza it's garbage. There's no sense of speed the physics are WAY wrong and it's far too slow. In GT6 the mods are pretty pump, but it handles pretty much as it does in real life. PLEASE stop with this biased rubbish from both sides.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I really feel sorry for the GT guys that have bought in to kaz's real driving simulator and just keep buying it blindly.

Yeah, and pretend you aren't doing the same with Dan's game, FM.

 

[BoneSawTX]

Poor show. Same can be said for Xbox Fanboys that constantly bang on about how great Forza is. Can't both sets of fanboys just accept that at the minute there are two excellent driving sims out there and both are good in certain ways and bad in others?

I've got a VW Scirocco in real life and in Forza it's garbage. There's no sense of speed the physics are WAY wrong and it's far too slow. In GT6 the mods are pretty pump, but it handles pretty much as it does in real life. PLEASE stop with this biased rubbish from both sides.

I've been reading poor showings from half the GT crowd here for years, before i even got into Forza i thought a lot of these guys are full of themselves. After playing both games I had to say T10 puts out a much better product, and it's not even close. I see another is here now that i see the show ignored content message at the bottom.

 

[SciroccoRich]

I've been reading poor showings from half the GT crowd here for years, before i even got into Forza i thought a lot of these guys are full of themselves. After playing both games I had to say T10 puts out a much better product, and it's not even close. I see another is here now that i see the show ignored content message at the bottom.

That may be the case, but you don't have to lower yourself to their level. If you're so convinced that it's "not even close" why are you arguing about it? The simple fact is that it is close and you know it is - which is the reason why you're arguing. Both do some things well and others not so well, just like PS4 and Xbox One.

I'm envious of some of the cars available on Forza, but I'm certainly not envious about the graphics for example.

I don't understand what you mean by: "I see another is here now that i see the ignored member posted a message at the bottom."?

 

[TokoTurismo]

delete

 

[BoneSawTX]

That may be the case, but you don't have to lower yourself to their level. If you're so convinced that it's "not even close" why are you arguing about it? The simple fact is that it is close and you know it is - which is the reason why you're arguing. Both do some things well and others not so well, just like PS4 and Xbox One.

I'm envious of some of the cars available on Forza, but I'm certainly not envious about the graphics for example.

I don't understand what you mean by: "I see another is here now that i see the ignored member posted a message at the bottom."?

I had put a few members on ignore to make the GT section easier to read, some i could feel my IQ drop as i read their posts.

6 versions of GT and it regressed in it's best areas and brought in some new things didn't help, I feel very firm in where I am on the two. My top game will always be "Le Mans 24 Hours", i don't think either have been as fun as that. More realistic but not the challenge.

 

[SciroccoRich]

I had put a few members on ignore to make the GT section easier to read, some i could feel my IQ drop as i read their posts.

6 versions of GT and it regressed in it's best areas and brought in some new things didn't help, I feel very firm in where I am on the two. My top game will always be "Le Mans 24 Hours", i don't think either have been as fun as that. More realistic but not the challenge.

Genuinely don't know how you can say that. Every GT has got better and better and 6 is, quite frankly, brilliant. It comes accross like you don't want to like GT for some reason?

 

[BoneSawTX]

Genuinely don't know how you can say that. Every GT has got better and better and 6 is, quite frankly, brilliant. It comes accross like you don't want to like GT for some reason?

1-3 got better each time, 4 had a nice car count but was the first i didn't bother finishing. GT5P was nice since it was so long between. GT5 got here and i tried to like it but quit playing twice, standards didn't even bother me but the challenge of the races did. I'd fall asleep playing the game, no joke. I plugged my PS2 back to play LM 24 Hrs and GT3 and 4 until last Christmas and i got a Xbox 360 to try FM4. I should have jumped earlier.

 

[SciroccoRich]

1-3 got better each time, 4 had a nice car count but was the first i didn't bother finishing. GT5P was nice since it was so long between. GT5 got here and i tried to like it but quit playing twice, standards didn't even bother me but the challenge of the races did. I'd fall asleep playing the game, no joke. I plugged my PS2 back to play LM 24 Hrs and GT3 and 4 until last Christmas and i got a Xbox 360 to try FM4. I should have jumped earlier.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with regard to challenges from the AI. The AI has always been bad though and that's true with FM too. But both games, as a technical exercise, have improved exponentially since their first releases, I can't understand how you don't see that because you're almost the only person I've ever heard that says anything like that - the others are Xbox/FM fanboys. GT5 was class but definitely had it's downsides, GT6 at the moment is in a class of it's own - yet still has problems. FM is exactly the same.