Forza 5 physics vs GT6 аnd other sims

[DirkTheDaring]

I suggest you try his example & you'll clearly see which one is inferior. GT5 & now 6 still have an outdated tire model that allows you to full throttle from a stand still, spinning the wheels in a straight line without so much as ever having to touch the steering. For someone that says he has a car like a TT Supra, you should know full well that would never work in real life; the car's rear would kick to the side as the tires look for grip, not shoot forward with no steering input.

As for this statement that your car doesn't want to lose grip, even in the rain, that's either a lie or you baby the throttle which is what I'm expecting. The car makes well over 300Hp at the crank, in a FR setup, more than enough to lose grip in the rear.

I did like that you tried to use statistics obtained by professionals to prove your point that your car's rear won't come around, though. Obviously in such cases, that's going to part of the challenge to achieve such figures, so it doesn't prove your point because any 300Hp+ RWD car can maintain grip with the right amount of throttle input. Give your car near full throttle through a turn next time. There's enough in it to break traction easily.

Are you guys using wheels or controllers ? With a Fanatec gt2, and all assists off if I nail the throttle from take off I am in a wall if the car has enough power. It does what I would expect. The steering wheel kicks like a mule when you do that ! Forza has spent a lot of time working with their tire models and they are very good. I have to say I am a convert now. After skipping GT5 due to my hatred of frame rate droop I am glad that I tried Gt6. I love the feel of the game. I feel more connected to the cars that i ever did in Forza and it feels more organic. Forza is more clinical in feel if that makes any sense.

 

[Hermanvongerman]

You need to sit down and spend more than a few minutes on a none-tune car to appreciate how good Fm5 physics are. You also need to learn how to throttle and break easy or you will spin/lock up the wheel. Cornering is fine. I drive a Mustang V6 (302hp) performance package with Pirelli p-zero and I do auto cross. When I auto cross, I often ride with certified driving instructor. So I know a thing if two about driving a performance car under challenging cornering course

Your "awesome" ability to drive a mustang you apparently own in real life has no relevance to the argument, although you for some reason think this information gives your statement validity it does not, I'd be confident many of the users on here drive in RL, and Drive many cars, this debate is about the difference in physics between FM5 and GT6 and which feel more realistic like I already stated imo GT6 does it better.

clearly in my comment I showed that I know how to drive forza - from my previous experience in the series,

played for 3 hours and I was driving a non tuned car on FM5, the physics were awful imho, I will never appreciate "how good" you think the physics are - bc i think they are garbage and you should go get your cash back

 

[Khyber]

most are probably using controllers with fm5

 

[Symtex]

Your "awesome" ability to drive a mustang you apparently own in real life has no relevance to the argument, although you for some reason think this information gives your statement validity it does not, I'd be confident many of the users on here drive in RL, and Drive many cars, this debate is about the difference in physics between FM5 and GT6 and which feel more realistic like I already stated imo GT6 does it better.

clearly in my comment I showed that I know how to drive forza - from my previous experience in the series,

played for 3 hours and I was driving a non tuned car on FM5, the physics were awful imho, I will never appreciate "how good" you think the physics are - bc i think they are garbage and you should go get your cash back

All the technique I have learn IRL I apply to FM5 (Weight transfer, trail breaking, smooth throttle control, turn apex, how to deal with oversteer/understeer). So don't come here and tell me its not relevant. How do you know if a car behave like it should, if you actually never done it in real life.

If you haven't played FM5 with a wheel, you have not a real idea how the physics really "feels" in FM5. non-tune car do drive like crap like a most car that hasn't been tuned for racing.

 

[Convergent]

Biggest difference I noticed between the games physics is the shifts, there should be a noticeable difference between the amount of time it takes to hit a paddle and change a gear in a racing dual-sequential versus having to double-clutch your way through a vintage stick shift. But all Gt6 cars shift instantly.

the in-car in the second half really show it off

compared to


here's the real deal i think

But the guy who was playing GT6 was using a controller, he didn't let off the gas before shifting..... and how is this related to physics???

Unfortunately it's called rubberbanding. It means that any car can be rocketship fast, if it's in the right place at the right time.

You mean they are finding the powerband, which is a point where the car makes the most power

 

[Tornado]

I reserve the term "floaty" for a game that exhibits such wacky and artificial pivoting/lateral motions that it's difficult to pin down how exactly the car is in contact with the road surface. Especially if the suspension modelling is numb or its motions are pre-animated or something, instead of modelling weight transfer. There are relatively few games that qualify for this -- even Ridge Racer, which is insane enough to allow you to drift a corner while spinning the wrong way, is snappy and makes the line between grip and slip pretty clear. Classic threshold-understeer-all-day arcade-style racers, like much of the NFS series and actual coin-ops like the Cruisin' series, are also pretty straightforward in communicating what the car is doing (going straight, turning, or not turning enough). The best examples I can think of for a "floaty" game would be older Codemasters titles and Initial D Arcade Stage. If you want to talk bars of soap with wheels, that's IDAS.

The Tokyo Xtreme Racer games prior to 3. In Zero especially they would rotate along a center axis but continue in the same direction until the drive wheels caught traction, at which point the car would jump in whatever direction it was pointing. It made it extremely prudent to coast through turns rather than brake and throttle through them. It was most similar to Ridge Racer Type 4, except you couldn't initiate the rotation yourself and the car didn't follow corners automatically.

Need For Speed IV also has a nasty disconnect between what you're doing and how the car is responding that II and III didn't have; similar to the progressive digital throttle that some PSP games had forced on them, but for steering instead.

You mean they are finding the powerband, which is a point where the car makes the most power

No, he means they are getting an artificial boost to make them go faster than they would ordinarily go.

 

[Convergent]

Why are we even talking about torque steer whe the glaring issues like engine sounds are much more important. I mea c'mon paint chips? still?

This is a physics thread....

 

[Imari]

You mean they are finding the powerband, which is a point where the car makes the most power

No, I don't.

When the AI is in front of you it drives slowly. When you spin out it drives really slowly. If you get ahead it drives faster. If you get way ahead it drives really fast.

There are limits on how fast and how slow the AI will go, but the pace is largely determined by how close you are to it and whether you're in front or behind.

Spoke to a guy yesterday who had a great race around Le Mans. He was pushing 4:03s in his Huayra, and the AI was on his tail for the last lap. Then I looked the race up on Youtube and found a guy running 4:15s with a spin out every lap. He got exactly the same result, the AI held just behind him for the last lap. Even when he spun in the Porsche Curves on the final lap the lead AI slowed down enough for him to take first again.

How competitive the AI will be is not determined when the race starts, it varies in response to how you're racing in that single race.

 

[ReverenceSatans]

After skipping GT5 due to my hatred of frame rate droop I am glad that I tried Gt6.

Hates frame rate drops > Glad he played GT6. Does not compute.

As for "feel", there is absolutely no "feel" in GT6 especially when dancing at the very limits of a car. The only improvement GT6 got from GT5 is they added an increasing tyre noise as to approach the grip limit. There is no actual feel or changing vehicle dynamic at the limit.

On another note, that whole "floaty" comment people throw out there, it's ********.

Some cars in FM do feel "floaty" but shock and horror it's because they should. Old cars, big tyres, soft suspension, low grade tyres. All these things lead to "floaty" feelings in real life. More sporty cars don't feel "floaty" in Forza just like in real life.

 

[Fezz_ST]

Hates frame rate drops > Glad he played GT6. Does not compute.

As for "feel", there is absolutely no "feel" in GT6 especially when dancing at the very limits of a car. The only improvement GT6 got from GT5 is they added an increasing tyre noise as to approach the grip limit. There is no actual feel or changing vehicle dynamic at the limit.

On another note, that whole "floaty" comment people throw out there, it's ********.

Some cars in FM do feel "floaty" but shock and horror it's because they should. Old cars, big tyres, soft suspension, low grade tyres. All these things lead to "floaty" feelings in real life. More sporty cars don't feel "floaty" in Forza just like in real life.

Don't forget, you have to change the tyres on every car in GT6 to the comfort hard to make it better

 

[Gturbo5]

GT Victory!

 

[King1982]

GT Victory!

You seem to forget FM4 already beat GT5. FM5 is next gen ad the simulation ad science behind T10's physics model build are based on pure science. GT6 only now started simulating tyre width but as expected your front ad rear tyres always stay the same size.... front and rear. The game that launched is already full of glitches and the people seem tired of it. The sales for Gt6 are waaaay down. Cars spinning out left and right for no apparent reason already started a couple of complaint threads. Watching the GT side of the forum i'm not even gonna come near it.

Nah i will stick with Forza for the next few games. At least i know i'lle get a polished game that maximizes every aspect of being a good racinggame with no comprimizes to physics, framerate, audio or graphics. I might check out Pcars later on.

 

[Gturbo5]

You seem to forget FM4 already beat GT5. FM5 is next gen ad the simulation ad science behind T10's physics model build are based on pure science. GT6 only now started simulating tyre width but as expected your front ad rear tyres always stay the same size.... front and rear. The game that launched is already full of glitches and the people seem tired of it. The sales for Gt6 are waaaay down. Cars spinning out left and right for no apparent reason already started a couple of complaint threads. Watching the GT side of the forum i'm not even gonna come near it.

Nah i will stick with Forza for the next few games. At least i know i'lle get a polished game that maximizes every aspect of being a good racinggame with no comprimizes to physics, framerate, audio or graphics. I might check out Pcars later on.

http://www.gametrailers.com/full-ep...lers-game-of-the-year-awards-best-racing-game

GT6 Winner.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

No aids video I just posted :

A warm up lap : Lamborghini Diablo GT '00, stock, oil change - 600HP, rear wing removed ( sexier ), painted in delicious purple. Fitted with comfort medium ( decent high performance summer tire IRL ), no ABS or other aids as usual, high BB - 9/2. Track is Mt Panorama, Bathurst, grip real, done under test drive in garage menu.
Time at 2:24.678, there are some sloppy section, and 1st sector is a bit slow at just over 21 second, my best 1st sector was 20.6s Now if only I have a wheel, things would have been much easier, especially steering the car

Default tire in GT6 is aimed at casual gamer, as can be seen with Renault Gordini that came with racing hard and all road cars that came with higher grade tire, maybe PD thought that these cars are going to be raced anyway, why not fit high grip tire as default. Most GT players now are of young age player, PD might want to make the learning curve easier for them ( SRF on by default in certain game modes and new game, rubber band AI, grippier stock tire, limited tire wear+ damage implementation )

I prefer to drive the cars with something closer to real life road tire grip level ( comfort tire = street tire ) even on tuned cars and supercars So fit tires according to the need and purpose. I would use sports tire ( semi slick ) when the need arises ( replica build, race in a club/league with a set rules )

Don't forget, you have to change the tyres on every car in GT6 to the comfort hard to make it better

Not all cars, and it's not to make it better

Hates frame rate drops > Glad he played GT6. Does not compute.

As for "feel", there is absolutely no "feel" in GT6 especially when dancing at the very limits of a car. The only improvement GT6 got from GT5 is they added an increasing tyre noise as to approach the grip limit. There is no actual feel or changing vehicle dynamic at the limit.

On another note, that whole "floaty" comment people throw out there, it's ********.

Some cars in FM do feel "floaty" but shock and horror it's because they should. Old cars, big tyres, soft suspension, low grade tyres. All these things lead to "floaty" feelings in real life. More sporty cars don't feel "floaty" in Forza just like in real life.

Have you tried GT6 ? If you try the car and tire combo like in the video I posted, disable all aids ( ABS too ), maybe you'll see the difference.

 

[Fezz_ST]

http://www.gametrailers.com/full-ep...lers-game-of-the-year-awards-best-racing-game

GT6 Winner.

Wouldn't expect anything less from a Gran Turismo bias website

 

[King1982]

GT Victory!

http://www.gametrailers.com/full-ep...lers-game-of-the-year-awards-best-racing-game

GT6 Winner.

1st. gametrailers has always been the most biased site towards the Forza series. During launch buildup you had too use the search engine to find anything Forza related.

2nd. GT is packed with great cars ad tracks, to bad more than half of it is inferior quality(sound, bugs, graphics, and framerate). The only reason Forza didn't win is because the lack of content wich is easily justifiable.

3rd. Gt scored 88 while Fm scored 87. So even with all that content Gt barely managed to win.

 

[TokoTurismo]

This thread is purely about physics though

Excatly.

 

[vro0m]

But the guy who was playing GT6 was using a controller, he didn't let off the gas before shifting..... and how is this related to physics???

whoa, wait so playing gt6 on controller should be faster than a wheel because the shifts are instantaneous? I would expect a car with a slow shift time to slow down during the shift since it's basically coasting while the clutch is in. but if every car has instant shifts isnt that a huge departure from real car physics/

 

[NLxAROSA]

I have not had the pleasure of playing FM5 yet, so here's a question: how do FWD physics relate to GT6's?

To be blunt: FWD physics in GT6 are borked, weight transfer appears to be modelled either not at all or incorrectly. This results in FF cars being unable to trigger lift off or brake oversteer, something that should be done quite easily with these cars. But no amount of tuning will make it happen, even when putting all the weight in front, lowering the front and raising the rear and setting brake balance to something like 1/10. The rear wheels just won't lock up before the front ones do under braking or lifting off. Good example is the Mégane RS, which I have owned IRL for 2.5 year and have tried in both GT6 and pCARS. The one in pCARS is spot-on, the one in GT6 is an understeering pig, which IRL it's definitely not. Even a simcade game like AutoClubRevolution does it better in this regard.

Now I have no way of comparing the two, but since GT6 is heralded as having the better physics model, is it even worse in FM5, or just completely different?

 

[VXR]

Throw a FF car around in Forza and you'll get all the realistic weigh shift over the nose you'd expect. You can trailbrake in Forza 5 as well. I drive a 125bhp FF and I play around with it, so I know how a FF car reacts to both lift-off and trailbraking first hand.

 

[McLaren]

But the guy who was playing GT6 was using a controller, he didn't let off the gas before shifting..... and how is this related to physics???

It doesn't matter if he does or doesn't lift. FM5's cars will shift corresponding to what gearbox is equipped & regardless of what transmission settings you use, which means whether you choose auto, manual, or manual w/ clutch, manual gearbox cars all replicate the loss in speed & clutch disengaging. This doesn't happen in GT which means the only way replicate the clutch disengaging is to do it yourself. Otherwise, something like the Shelby Cobra or GT500 will just shift as if it has a quick paddleshift gearbox.

 

[Fezz_ST]

It doesn't matter if he does or doesn't lift. FM5's cars will shift corresponding to what gearbox is equipped & regardless of what transmission settings you use, which means whether you choose auto, manual, or manual w/ clutch, manual gearbox cars all replicate the loss in speed & clutch disengaging. This doesn't happen in GT which means the only way replicate the clutch disengaging is to do it yourself. Otherwise, something like the Shelby Cobra or GT500 will just shift as if it has a quick paddleshift gearbox.

I'm begging to see a pattern with GT, either live with what it gives you or change the way you play....

 

[MKVSupra]

You've been asked to do this and you refused

And iv asked multiple time for some one to claim F5 better simulates their real car better, and you all have refused.

 

[Fezz_ST]

And iv asked multiple time for some one to claim F5 better simulates their real car better, and you all have refused.

Specifics might help....if you're not willing to, why should anyone else?

 

[MKVSupra]

Specifics might help....if you're not willing to, why should anyone else?

GT6 Supra characteristic very close to the real thing, similar grip and handling so easy for me to drive like the real thing.
F5 supra is like muscle car on leaf springs squirrely as hell it literally feel more like a 70s vett then a Supra, way to much a handful for a precision sports car she is.

Specific enough ? F5 does a piss poor job of simulating the Supras characteristics, may look pretty liek it but sure does not drive like it.

I can chalk it up to the fact PD has better access to this specific ride, but it is what it is. Maybe other cars are better in F5, id test the Lex IS in both but F5 lacks that content.

 

[Symtex]

GT6 Supra characteristic very close to the real thing, similar grip and handling so easy for me to drive like the real thing.
F5 supra is like muscle car on leaf springs squirrely as hell it literally feel more like a 70s vett then a Supra, way to much a handful for a precision sports car she is.

Specific enough ? F5 does a piss poor job of simulating the Supras characteristics, may look pretty liek it but sure does not drive like it.

I can chalk it up to the fact PD has better access to this specific ride, but it is what it is. Maybe other cars are better in F5, id test the Lex IS in both but F5 lacks that content.

I call BS. Specially if you are making all these claims while playing with a controller. My car too would handle like **** if I go from 0 to 100 on the throttle/break. It not possible to have have similar grip and handling as most car in both GT surpass the amount of lateral G possible with the car. If you drove your car in real life like in GT, the whole suspension, tire, engine, clutch etc.. would probably be burned by the end of the day.

 

[MKVSupra]

I call BS. Specially if you are making all these claims while playing with a controller. My car too would handle like **** if I go from 0 to 100 on the throttle/break. It not possible to have have similar grip and handling as most car in both GT surpass the amount of lateral G possible with the car. If you drove your car in real life like in GT, the whole suspension, tire, engine, clutch etc.. would probably be burned by the end of the day.

I play both with controller, why is one more like the real deal ? Would F5 be overly better with a wheel, to the point it be as good if not better then GT6 ?

Funny you say, I already fried one clutch and got a twin plate for next time and replaced back tires after one season. its a sports car, i enjoy it to the fullest. Engine is build like a tank, at 450 shell handle it no issue.

 

[Symtex]

I play both with controller, why is one more like the real deal ? Would F5 be overly better with a wheel, to the point it be as good if not better then GT6 ?

Funny you say, I already fried one clutch and got a twin plate for next time and replaced back tires after one season. its a sports car, i enjoy it to the fullest. Engine is build like a tank, at 450 shell handle it no issue.

You don't understand the irony of what you just said ? driving a car with a controller that has no analogue control for throttle/break (in GT) feels to you like racing a car with a steering wheel ? I am sorry but unless you drove both game with a steering wheel, you opinion in regards to reality and physics is irrelevant.

 

[MKVSupra]

You don't understand the irony of what you just said ? driving a car with a controller that has no analogue control for throttle/break (in GT) feels to you like racing a car with a steering wheel ? I am sorry but unless you drove both game with a steering wheel, you opinion in regards to reality and physics is irrelevant.

The vast majority play with a controller, so opinion of the games is based of their feedback playing with a controller.

So GT is better set up for controller then F5 ?

Best Irony I see is people arguing the owner of a specific car that F5 version is more realistic then GT6 one. Though they have never driven it.

Is you real life car more realistic in GT6 or F5 ?

 

[Symtex]

The vast majority play with a controller, so opinion of the games is based of their feedback playing with a controller.

So GT is better set up for controller then F5 ?

I disagree. Forza has analogue control while GT has digital one. If anything, FM control allows you more precise input with the right amount of throttle or break. It a very important aspect of racing. Now if you were playing with a racing wheel, we would both have a different type of argument. I played both GT5 and FM5 with a wheel. I don't have a PS3 anymore so I cannot play GT6