Forza 5's woeful lighting and how it backfired

[ImaRobot]

I for one would be happy to try it. Honestly speaking, I am perfectly content with playing a game that is not 60 FPS if I can change the time of day on any track I go to. Regardless, if I am still posting here, I will voice my displeasure.

I, for one, choose a locked frame rate over anything. That is the single most important feature to me.

You seem to be going after everyone else's opinion and disregarding them if they go against yours, and then pull out as if they are telling you not to post yours. Why?

You puzzle me TokoTurismo... You state a broad sweeping question in "what's the big deal" when it comes to dynamic time and weather yet seem displeased with a racing developers lack of interaction with the fan base. Take that same mindset you have and apply it to those who want dynamic weather and time.

How is that the same, exactly?

But yet, you did take a jab at a "certain" developer in the wrong thread (which sadly, is par for the course here at GTPlanet).

No he didn't, his comment was in direct response to his views on Dynamic lighting. You pulled it off track when you insisted that hes just taking "jabs" and made it about the developer, instead of his comment about the lack of a consistently working feature.

 

[RacerPaul]

Come ON! Tell me you want to see hand-over-hand animation... tell me you want to see gear sticks and paddles, and steering wheel angle moving like the real thing... I know you want to!

No, not at all. I use hood-cam with my wheel and chase-cam when I use the controller. Cockpit animations are lame imo and I wish I could turn them all off like I can in pCARS

 

[nocturnalgrey]

You seem to be going after everyone else's opinion and disregarding them if they go against yours, and then pull out as if they are telling you not to post yours. Why?

That's an assumption on your part actually. I am not disregarding them at all, I just don't agree with them. As far as "going after" posts goes, I am not sure what to make of that. I read, I find something to post on, rinse and repeat. 'Tis the ways of a message board is it not?
.

 

[ImaRobot]

That's an assumption on your part actually. I am not disregarding them at all, I just don't agree with them. As far as "going after" posts goes, I am not sure what to make of that. I read, I find something to post on, rinse and repeat. 'Tis the ways of a message board is it not?
.

It was more around this something else, but I didn't notice you had corrected it already, so my mistake on that part. Either way, it was less of an assumption and more of just acknowledging exactly what you wrote. You ignoring that no one implied it, but act as if someone had told you to not post your opinion, was a bit odd.

Removed, as it would be the polite thing to do.

 

[nocturnalgrey]

You are correct as I am going off topic. My apologies.

 

[Speedster911]

I have that on PC already via Iracing, Assetto Corsa and Pcars/etc. I turn the hands and wheel off while racing, as it becomes a distraction while using the cockpit views.

Well, I believe you're on a wheel, in which case, it makes a lot of sense to just see the dash and the road ahead. But it PC sims can get this right with less stellar-looking visuals, why can't Forza?

I'll tell you why: it may never be a proper sim, and it's prolly not even on T10's list of priorities. *irrespective of how some fans/gamers might feel*

 

[ImaRobot]

Well, I believe you're on a wheel, in which case, it makes a lot of sense to just see the dash and the road ahead. But it PC sims can get this right with less stellar-looking visuals, why can't Forza?

I'll tell you why: it may never be a proper sim, and it's prolly not even on T10's list of priorities. *irrespective of how some fans/gamers might feel*

I'm not seeing the relevance with proper animation, and being a sim. I'm glad that its not on their list of priorities, because its definitely not one concerning a lot of other things that can be done instead.

 

[Ialyrn]

Well, I believe you're on a wheel, in which case, it makes a lot of sense to just see the dash and the road ahead. But it PC sims can get this right with less stellar-looking visuals, why can't Forza?

I'll tell you why: it may never be a proper sim, and it's prolly not even on T10's list of priorities. *irrespective of how some fans/gamers might feel*

Im using a wheel on PC, not on the Xbox one. My TX wheel broke July 2014. Even so, the in cockpit animations in any racing game are not a concern to me. They are not even on my radar, and I find them more off putting and distracting than anything. There are also other things that T10 should be working on anyway, such as improving the actual game. Not a set of animations that serve no purpose than just to look nice.

 

[Speedster911]

Im using a wheel on PC, not on the Xbox one. My TX wheel broke July 2014. Even so, the in cockpit animations in any racing game are not a concern to me. They are not even on my radar, and I find them more off putting and distracting than anything. There are also other things that T10 should be working on anyway, such as improving the actual game. Not a set of animations that serve no purpose than just to look nice.

Well, you do have a point.. however, I'd say if it's important to have a car's suspension modeling done right (which does bring animation heavily into play), then it's equally important to simulate proper steering rack ratios, again, where animation plays a key role. Visuals is something that connects you with the game from start to finish. They should be doing everything they can to add to the immersion.

 

[Ialyrn]

Well, you do have a point.. however, I'd say if it's important to have a car's suspension modeling done right (which does bring animation heavily into play), then it's equally important to simulate proper steering rack ratios, again, where animation plays a key role. Visuals is something that connects you with the game from start to finish. They should be doing everything they can to add to the immersion.

Suspension modelling is something that is brought up with every forza game, and there really isn't anything wrong on that side of things at all. Not from what I can see anyway. If you have a specific example, then you should really show it instead of just saying "It's important to have the suspension modeling done right". Or bringing into question other aspects of the games technical underpinnings without any other details. With regards to the suspension, it is less to do with a programmed animation, as the suspension effects are a direct result of the physics engine. Which in forza includes things such as tire deformation and suspension movements. Which is directly effected by the surface you are racing on, the camber of a particular corner, the radius of said corner, how much steering lock you are using, the weight of the car, and how much speed you are taking through it.

As for the cockpit animations, and as I keep saying, they are just that and nothing more. They have no impact at all on the steering in the game, they are just there to looks. Even in Iracing, the steering wheel rotation in the cars cockpit does not affect the steering what so ever. In Assetto I can lock the in game wheel to the exact same rotation shown in Forza, yet I can still use all 900° available to me on from G27 wheel. Back when I had a TX wheel, I brought up the telemetry because of the claims you made before on this exact same issue. In the telemetry, the steering radius was that of the TX wheel. Which I was using the full 900° at the time. The ingame wheel stopped at its usual point. Never once affected my experience in the game. As for you thinking you need more, there are actually very few turns in Forza or any racing game that require more than 180° of actual steering on a wheel when using the full 900° available on the TX. Most time I would only turn the wheel as much as the animation shows within Forza. Only times I did use more, was when I was drifting the car; or correcting a particularly bad slide in a race.

 

[Speedster911]

Suspension modelling is something that is brought up with every forza game, and there really isn't anything wrong on that side of things at all. Not from what I can see anyway. If you have a specific example, then you should really show it instead of just saying "It's important to have the suspension modeling done right". Or bringing into question other aspects of the games technical underpinnings without any other details. With regards to the suspension, it is less to do with a programmed animation, as the suspension effects are a direct result of the physics engine. Which in forza includes things such as tire deformation and suspension movements. Which is directly effected by the surface you are racing on, the camber of a particular corner, the radius of said corner, how much steering lock you are using, the weight of the car, and how much speed you are taking through it.

As for the cockpit animations, and as I keep saying, they are just that and nothing more. They have no impact at all on the steering in the game, they are just there to looks. Even in Iracing, the steering wheel rotation in the cars cockpit does not affect the steering what so ever. In Assetto I can lock the in game wheel to the exact same rotation shown in Forza, yet I can still use all 900° available to me on from G27 wheel. Back when I had a TX wheel, I brought up the telemetry because of the claims you made before on this exact same issue. In the telemetry, the steering radius was that of the TX wheel. Which I was using the full 900° at the time. The ingame wheel stopped at its usual point. Never once affected my experience in the game. As for you thinking you need more, there are actually very few turns in Forza or any racing game that require more than 180° of actual steering on a wheel when using the full 900° available on the TX. Most time I would only turn the wheel as much as the animation shows within Forza. Only times I did use more, was when I was drifting the car; or correcting a particularly bad slide in a race.

Hmm, yeah. No, I don't care to give examples. The cars don't react/unsettle convincingly enough around curbs and bumps. But that's okay. Far better than FM4.

 

[Ialyrn]

Hmm, yeah. No, I don't care to give examples. The cars don't react/unsettle convincingly enough around curbs and bumps. But that's okay. Far better than FM4.

And what exactly makes you say this? As I said before, you need to give examples on this stuff. Otherwise, we can not discuss things further, or see what your actual point is. As it is, you are just making a blanket statement over something. For me, the cars in Forza react how I expect them too, to the point that the Fiat Abarth Punto in the game felt very similar to the real world turbo charged sporting version I used to own and drive on a daily basis. If anything, the cars can lose grip a tad easily in Forza.

 

[glassjaw]

There's absolutely no reason a device like the XBone can't handle dynamic lighting or weather at 1080p@60fps. The responsibility lies with Turn 10 to build a game that balances other things (polys, textures, etc.) with the demands of such features. If they made the game too "pretty" to implement those features, it's only their fault.

👍 Given how powerful current gen systems are, we shouldn't have to choose. 60 fps/dynamic time and weather is completely possible so long as developers budget effectively. Project Cars can hit it easily so long as grid sizes are kept low. What bothers me is that Turn 10 has evidently fallen into the same mindset Polyphony fell into after GT4, refusing to implement crucial features that their competition already have. No excuse that a racing game of FM6's status and budget shouldn't at least have dynamic time, especially considering its track roster includes Le Mans and Sebring.

 

[Speedster911]

And what exactly makes you say this? As I said before, you need to give examples on this stuff. Otherwise, we can not discuss things further, or see what your actual point is. As it is, you are just making a blanket statement over something. For me, the cars in Forza react how I expect them too, to the point that the Fiat Abarth Punto in the game felt very similar to the real world turbo charged sporting version I used to own and drive on a daily basis. If anything, the cars can lose grip a tad easily in Forza.

No, I don't need to give examples and don't wish to discuss this further.

It's just a game. This is just a forum. So relax and enjoy your life.

Good day.

👍 Given how powerful current gen systems are, we shouldn't have to choose. 60 fps/dynamic time and weather is completely possible so long as developers budget effectively. Project Cars can hit it easily so long as grid sizes are kept low. What bothers me is that Turn 10 has evidently fallen into the same mindset Polyphony fell into after GT4, refusing to implement crucial features that their competition already have. No excuse that a racing game of FM6's status and budget shouldn't at least have dynamic time, especially considering its track roster includes Le Mans and Sebring.

Ah, the same mindset as PD you say?

Yet you see T10 games make consistent progress in terms of audio, physics, video, gameplay/features with every game released to date - we'll cut FM5 a bit of slack here seeing how it was a launch title.

Statistics bore me... so here's some concrete a concrete fact I've observed on gaming forums: more people have switched to Forza than the other way around.

Great things are in store for Forza. If you find it tedious, there are always alternatives on the market. For me personally, FM and Horizon satisfy the appetite nicely, and improvements will come as they always have over the past decade.

 

[ImaRobot]

No, I don't need to give examples and don't wish to discuss this further.

It's just a game. This is just a forum. So relax and enjoy your life.

Good day.

Then I guess you shouldn't have brought up these things in the first place, if you where not going to discuss them in any way whatsoever when questioned about them.

Either way, if the converstiion was to continue, then yes, you would have to give examples. You're right, this is a forum, and you initiated a debate with someone about things you don't like, so you can't blame them for replying to things you said.

 

[Speedster911]

Then I guess you shouldn't have brought up these things in the first place, if you where not going to discuss them in any way whatsoever when questioned about them.

Either way, if the converstiion was to continue, then yes, you would have to give examples. You're right, this is a forum, and you initiated a debate with someone about things you don't like, so you can't blame them for replying to things you said.

Aaaand ImaRobot to the fair maiden's rescue!

Your input wasn't necessary, but then again, it's a free forum. And you are right in assuming that the conversation wasn't to continue .

Oh, and I would remind you quite humbly that this isn't a debate from where I'm standing - just pointing out my observations. And no, I do not have time to sit down and give examples or explanations as if writing a term paper.

Thank you and pleasant dreams.

 

[ImaRobot]

Aaaand ImaRobot to the fair maiden's rescue!

Your input wasn't necessary, but then again, it's a free forum. And you are right in assuming that the conversation wasn't to continue .

Oh, and I would remind you quite humbly that this isn't a debate from where I'm standing - just pointing out my observations. And no, I do not have time to sit down and give examples or explanations as if writing a term paper.

Thank you and pleasant dreams.

To the rescue? I doubt that there was any rescuing to be needed.

Whether my input was necessary or not is nothing to worry about, we don't need reminders that we are allowed to post.

That's the problem, though. You actually started on the way to getting into a discussion with someone, and then all of a sudden you turned around and said "Nanananana I don't have too." You initiated a debate( lets just say discussion ) and backed out. Still if you are going to post opinions on things, its just odd to ignore someones request on why you think that. Why even post it at that point? Still though, thats how it works on this forum. If you make claims, then you are the one that provide for those claims.

It's odd how you can say you don't have time to post a reasonable explanation to an opinion you have, yet you've posted already 3 times about how you don't have time.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

No, I don't need to give examples and don't wish to discuss this further.

So you're just going to stick to the drive-by comment approach? That contributes nothing.

Statistics bore me... so here's some concrete a concrete fact I've observed on gaming forums: more people have switched to Forza than the other way around.

Since its concrete, you shouldn't have a problem providing proof. Have a read of the AUP while you're at it.

The name-calling attitude you adopt when anybody calls you out on your nonsense is unwelcome too. Either drop it, or you'll be unwelcome as well.

 

[Terronium-12]

Literally the stupidest thing I've read all day, and no I'm not giving examples or an explanation.

It's just stupid and you'll have to accept that.

 

[Zelalem]

👍 Given how powerful current gen systems are, we shouldn't have to choose. 60 fps/dynamic time and weather is completely possible so long as developers budget effectively. Project Cars can hit it easily so long as grid sizes are kept low.

Project Cars is 900p on xbox one and even with low grid size the game doesn't get an average framerate of 60fps.

 

[driver_34_]

Well what if GT7 delivers ToD but fails to run at locked 60 fps? Same situation.

do not think that a drop of 5 to 10 fps (which is only in the most complex situations like full grid with rain ) affects so much the gameplay , I think it's just an excuse to denigrate gt.
I prefer a drop of few fps rather not have dynamic weather and time conditions,without which it would become boring after a while
Sorry my english, i don't speak very well

 

[BoneSawTX]

I like the solid 60 fps, after playing FH2 and going back to FM5 it was very noticeable. I also hate dropped frame rates, drops at the wrong time and you can mess a corner up bad.

Dynamic weather is also something I can do without.

 

[Vspectra]

Got bored of all the Forzas, bar the first one, very quickly just due to no variation in the track environment and night racing. Immersion is just as important as 60fps to me, and dynamic TOD and weather increases this ten fold.

Project Cars is 900p on xbox one and even with low grid size the game doesn't get an average framerate of 60fps.

SMS also aren't Polyphony. PD would do wonders with the Xbone hardware considering GT6 already looks better than PS4 Pcars in several areas.

 

[driver_34_]

Got bored of all the Forzas, bar the first one, very quickly just due to no variation in the track environment and night racing. Immersion is just as important as 60fps to me, and dynamic TOD and weather increases this ten fold.



SMS also aren't Polyphony. PD would do wonders with the Xbone hardware considering GT6 already looks better than PS4 Pcars in several areas.

Got bored of all the Forzas, bar the first one, very quickly just due to no variation in the track environment and night racing. Immersion is just as important as 60fps to me, and dynamic TOD and weather increases this ten fold.



SMS also aren't Polyphony. PD would do wonders with the Xbone hardware considering GT6 already looks better than PS4 Pcars in several areas.

I don't know how people don't notice how polyphony has done a miracle on ps3

 

[Arixant]

GT6 already looks better than PS4 Pcars in several areas.

Hoooooooooold on there, you cant compare photomode renders against actual game footage, and say theyre on the same level. I'm not one to defend pCars but at least post screenshots of what you actually see in GT6.

 

[driver_34_]

Hoooooooooold on there, you cant compare photomode renders against actual game footage, and say theyre on the same level. I'm not one to defend pCars but at least post screenshots of what you actually see in GT6.

In this video gt6 seems to be slighty better aprt the sounds

 

[eran0004]

Hoooooooooold on there, you cant compare photomode renders against actual game footage, and say theyre on the same level. I'm not one to defend pCars but at least post screenshots of what you actually see in GT6.

It isn't photomode, it's GT6 in 1080p resolution
If you click to see the full size image you'll notice these artifacts in the picture, those are not there in photomode:

 

[ImaRobot]

Got bored of all the Forzas, bar the first one, very quickly just due to no variation in the track environment and night racing. Immersion is just as important as 60fps to me, and dynamic TOD and weather increases this ten fold.



SMS also aren't Polyphony. PD would do wonders with the Xbone hardware considering GT6 already looks better than PS4 Pcars in several areas.

You're saying that they are just as important as each other, but what it seems like is that ToD and weather are far more important, because if that was te case frame rate issues should be a problem for you.

I myself can't get into a racing game that has fluctuating frame rates. It just becomes incredibly annoying, and just because it looks pretty doesn't mean much to me if it can't perform.

I don't know how people don't notice how polyphony has done a miracle on ps3

Graphically it's great, but what exactly is the miracle?

It isn't photomode, it's GT6 in 1080p resolution
If you click to see the full size image you'll notice these artifacts in the picture, those are not there in photomode:

View attachment 432634

The problem here is that PCars was never aimed at being a graphical powerhouse. Sure they've done tricks with ToD to make it look pretty but you can tell on their modeling that it is something they held back on in order to perform better in other areas. How much that helped is a different discussion.

 

[driver_34_]

You're saying that they are just as important as each other, but what it seems like is that ToD and weather are far more important, because if that was te case frame rate issues should be a problem for you.

I myself can't get into a racing game that has fluctuating frame rates. It just becomes incredibly annoying, and just because it looks pretty doesn't mean much to me if it can't perform.


Graphically it's great, but what exactly is the miracle?


The problem here is that PCars was never aimed at being a graphical powerhouse. Sure they've done tricks with ToD to make it look pretty but you can tell on their modeling that it is something they held back on in order to perform better in other areas. How much that helped is a different discussion.

I say they have done a miracle because with 256 mb its very hard to put dynamic lighting and weather with 1440x1080p with 60fps.
Just see forza 4 with no dynamic lightining with only 720p

 

[ImaRobot]

I say they have done a miracle because with 256 mb its very hard to put dynamic lighting and weather with 1440x1080p with 60fps.
Just see forza 4 with no dynamic lightining with only 720p

I fail to see how that is a miracle.