Forza Bans Confederate Flags as "Notorious Iconography"

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greenlightning
I am speaking more in general removing statues, removing changing names of places, products all because of some misbelieved notion that it will make things better. If things keep going - it would not be surprising if there is not some grass roots movement to remove the US Civil War from history books or other things along those lines.
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No one is asking for history to not be taught in schools - quite the opposite in fact. A lot of countries (not just the US, but the UK in particular) typically do a very poor job at teaching the topics from the side of history they were on the 'wrong' side of (slavery, colonialism, genocides). All that's being asked is to not glorify the mistakes of the past. There are no statues of Adolf Hitler in the streets of London or people driving around with swastikas on their cars/clothing not because we want to forget the events of WW2 but because that's not the way anyone learns about history. No educational or historical point is made by driving around the Confederate Flag on your car any more than driving around with a swastika is. It diminishes the history and significance of those events to treat those symbols as some sort of decoration to be adorned on any object you see fit.
 
Wonder if I'll get in trouble for this Tunnock's Teacake livery?

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WVStarship
Sorry for the upcoming rant but it should be made clear that there are 2 sides to every coin:

After the Civil War, the South was in ruins, virtually destroyed. During reconstruction Southerners used the flag in question as a symbol of strength and unity to rebuild from the ashes. It was Not the Confederate National Flag. How dare these people try to rebuild!
Their forefathers were traitors only to their tyrant masters to the north. As sovereign states they peacefully left the Union because the divide between the 2 cultures had grown so far that it no longer made sense to stay together. Their northern masters would have none of that and set upon an ethnic cleansing that resulted in the death of over 600,000 people, many of them women and children. The North cared nothing about slavery. It was only after the war effort was going poorly after 2 full years that the Tyrant Lincoln decided that slavery would be a good rallying cry for the useful idiots of the day. It worked. It also worked to keep GB from supporting the South, as GB was strongly anti-slave. To label an entire people as traitors because they fought against a foreign invader is ludicrous. BTW, I am not from the South and my great-great grandfather fought for the North (he was drafted) and died in Andersonville prison ( a Southern prison camp in Georgia).

Any American calling to ban any flag for any reason is not a true American. The idea that Badflounder was in the military is frightening. I always wondered if push came to shove if the Military would back the Tyrants or the People. From his attitude its not looking good.

I never owned a Confederate Flag before, but I'm getting some now. I strongly urge all Americans to get as many of these flags as possible and wave them proudly during the Nation Anthem and at all public events you can possibly attend. Please show the brown-shirt thugs that are infesting this nation we will not accept cultural gynecide in any way, shape or form. LIVE FREE OR DIE!
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And some people think wearing masks is dumb so long as they drink enough bleach first.


2 sides!
 
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The way I see it is symbols and their meanings are fluid. The more a symbol is used in a different context, the more the original context is lost and the meaning behind it changes. The whole ‘southern pride’ nonsense along with the modern confederate flag only started in the 1960s as a dogwhistle counter movement to civil rights. But in 2020, there is literally an entire generation of that legitimately believe that the flag means nothing beyond being rebellious. Time is the great leveller. Just like how the Nazis hijacked the swastika and changed its meaning, there’s precisely nothing stopping us from hijacking the confederate flag or the IJN flag or indeed even the swastika and changing their meaning to whatever we want.
Morgan Freeman put it best: how do we stop racism? We stop talking about it.
 
ImaRobot
I wouldn't. Leave the terrible symbolism and groups in the past. Why try to redeem something that has such a stigma? Just leave it at that point.
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To continue to use or not to continue to use the symbolism is up to the people behind its inception. If they say no, it's no good. If they say yes, we have to go with it, and give them a chance, as long as they don't start acting like they used to.

And no, you've probably missed my point if you still think it's fitting for the argument being made.

Joey D
I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. It's an absolute fact that the Confederate States lost the Civil War and were traitors to America, that's not open for interpretation because that's what happened historically. If people want to glorify losers and traitors, then that's their right too. I'm just not going to respect them for it because I don't respect losers and traitors.
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The only fact is that the Confederates lost. As for who were the traitors and the losers, the North thinks that of the South and the South thinks that of the North. History is written by the victors, and all, but no doubt both thought of each other as traitors and losers. So yeah, if it depends on who you ask, it is open to interpretation.

Regardless, it's a pity that there are Northerners that still think that way of the Southerners and Sountherners that still think that way of the Northerners. It means that the hate is being passed on to future generations when it should be erased.

Joey D
And I'm going to pretty much hold onto my opinion about the South because statistically, it's largely true. The drug problem is the only thing that I will admit that I'm off base on. The rest of it though is pretty spot on and backed up by numbers.
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I'd have to see these statistics and their sources to be able to determine whether they are reliable indicators or not but, I prefer, until further information gathered, to assume the best of people, especially when talking about such large numbers.

Tornado
How many people do you think willingly self-identify as racist?
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If they firmly believe they're right, they'll have no problem admitting it the second they can.

It's just wrong to look for dogwhistles in people all the time, always assuming the worse.

EDIT: That fact that they might not want to admit they're racist is telling. If most people were racist, i.e. if it were the norm, they would feel right at home all the time. Not the case.
 
My brother's other half is South African and apparently post arpartheid they had all the book burning and the statue destroying but it didn't change a thing. If you destroy history you also destroy the points of your argument you may want to refer back to. Then again most of the people doing all the vandalism have probably never read up on anything and it's just a mob to be joined and chance to vandalise stuff.

Anyone remember that Louis Theroux episode in SA where loads of people just joined a violent mob because everyone else was doing it and some poor guy had just been kangeroo courted and now the lynch mob was literally after him?
 
No one is destroying history, people. No one needs the confederate flag to remind them of the war fought over state's rights to own slaves. In the south, we still talk about it, you won't forgot it.
 
warp9engage
To continue to use or not to continue to use the symbolism is up to the people behind its inception. If they say no, it's no good. If they say yes, we have to go with it, and give them a chance, as long as they don't start acting like they used to.

And no, you've probably missed my point if you still think it's fitting for the argument being made.
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You're right, it's up to them if they want to use it. It doesn't mean it's an automatic free pass to use something that was so closely related to racism just because you don't want it to mean what it meant. Give a chance for what? They used their chance a hundred years ago. We don't have to "go with" anything that they want to say about it now. We'll go off what it represented.

Nope, didn't miss your point. It's pretty fitting.

warp9engage
I'd have to see these statistics and their sources to be able to determine whether they are reliable indicators or not but, I prefer, until further information gathered, to assume the best of people, especially when talking about such large numbers.
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You want sources and statistics but willingly ignore history and fact?
 
warp9engage
If they firmly believe they're right, they'll have no problem admitting it the second they can.

It's just wrong to look for dogwhistles in people all the time, always assuming the worse.

EDIT: That fact that might not want to admit they're racist is telling. If most people were racist, i.e. if it were the norm, they would feel right at home all the time. Not the case.
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Whoosh

I'll give you a hand: People who are racist probably wouldn't find racist iconography to be racist if they supported its display, and would likely insist that it just represents good old boys never meaning no harm instead.




And before you try to bring it up, no, that doesn't mean that everyone who has no problem with the Confederate flag is racist; but what it definitely does mean is that some of the people in that 40 whatever percent who insist it isn't racist and can't be viewed as such do so because they are racist.
 
I support this move as long at Turn 10 don't think that they've now 'ticked the box' on the current debates on this topic. Being part of societies re-evaluation of a symbol is a good step, but there are plenty of other things that any organisation can do, not least examining their own diversity programs and considering the good causes they do, or should support. Look at Mercedes: A black livery will not in itself help anyone, but if it diverts attention to their investment in diversity in STEM subjects, THATS what makes the difference.

So yes Turn 10, well done for taking this step, but now tell us how you'll be doing your bit to bring greater diversity and equality into the technology sector...
 
ImaRobot
You want sources and statistics but willingly ignore history and fact?
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I was responding to Joey regarding his statement that current Southerners are uneducated, poor, racist etc. He claims to have seen data on this, which I would like to see first, in order to determine if that line of thought is sound or not. We are talking about a very large group of people, after all.

ImaRobot
You're right, it's up to them if they want to use it. It doesn't mean it's an automatic free pass to use something that was so closely related to racism just because you don't want it to mean what it meant. Give a chance for what? They used their chance a hundred years ago. We don't have to "go with" anything that they want to say about it now. We'll go off what it represented.
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I forgot the 'second' before the chance. Happens when I try to type a response too quickly.

Any symbol should get a free pass as long as there isn't overwhelming agreement about it being good or bad. There appears to be a substantial amount of support for the flag, in a different light, so I think they should be allowed to show it that way. We live in a world seeing both things we like and don't like, and, as long as there is no disruption or harm being done and the people are behaving peacefully, we simply go on with our day.

ImaRobot
Nope, didn't miss your point. It's pretty fitting.
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You're going to have explain yourself then, please.

Tornado
Whoosh

I'll give you a hand: People who are racist probably wouldn't find racist iconography to be racist if they supported its display, and would likely insist that it just represents good old boys never meaning no harm instead.




And before you try to bring it up, no, that doesn't mean that everyone who has no problem with the Confederate flag is racist; but what it definitely does mean is that some of the people in that 40 whatever percent who insist it isn't racist and can't be viewed as such do so because they are racist.
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Oh yeah. Unfortunately there are still racists out there definitely. What I don't like is people assuming that, just because someone is wielding a Confederate Flag, they must be espousing its racist meaning. There is clearly another meaning being attributed to the Confederate Flag, nowadays, and, because innocent until proven guilty, you should assume the person has benevolent intentions, especially if all you know of them is what you got from a glance.



For the record, for everyone in general: I'm not arguing, specifically, in defense of the Confederate Flag. I have no real strong opinion about it. What I do have a strong opinion about, is the banning of any symbol that is remotely controversial. I know it won't stop with just the most controversial. It will spread, so resistance has to be met at every step of the way, and that may mean playing devil's advocate for symbols you don't particularly care for, in order to be fair and consistent.
 
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warp9engage
For the record, for everyone in general: I'm not arguing, specifically, in defense of the Confederate Flag. I have no real strong opinion about it. What I do have a strong opinion about, is the banning of any symbol that is remotely controversial. I know it won't stop with just the most controversial. It will spread, so resistance has to be met at every step of the way, and that may mean playing devil's advocate for symbols you don't particularly care for, in order to be fair and consistent.
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"If this happens, then it stands to reason that this will happen next." this is a logical fallacy. There is no reason to believe that scenario is going to play out anywhere but in your mind.
 
warp9engage
I was responding to Joey regarding his statement that current Southerners are uneducated, poor, racist etc. He claims to have seen data on this, which I would like to see first, in order to determine if that line of thought is sound or not. We are talking about a very large group of people, after all.
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I'm aware of who you are responding to and about what. It doesn't change the question I asked.
warp9engage
I forgot the 'second' before the chance. Happens when I try to type a response too quickly.
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I figured what you meant, but still, why bother with basically trying to recreate what something stood for? The simpler idea would be to use something completely new to show what you stand for, not using one that has a humongous stigma around it.

warp9engage
Any symbol should get a free pass as long as there isn't overwhelming agreement about it being good or bad. There appears to be a substantial amount of support for the flag, in a different light, so I think they should be allowed to show it that way. We live in a world seeing both things we like and don't like, and, as long as there is no disruption or harm being done and the people are behaving peacefully, we simply go on with our day.
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That some people support it in a different light doesn't change the fact that it was in fact supported by racists, and was largely that, at the very least. That people want to try to redefine it doesn't change much. People are still allowed to do what ever they want in real life, because it's only banned in this video game.
 
The big issue I have with all of this is how T10/PG/MS handle stuff like this. There is an in game messaging system that never gets used, so i can see a lot of players who aren't the small minority on twitter and the forums getting burned by this.

Also how will this work for the other games that aren't supported but still have the servers up (FM4/FH3/FM6), surely that would be a bit much to ban someone because of something on an older title.
 
So long long as our histories are faithfully documented and represented in literature, particularly textbooks, public museums and our educational systems, we aren't "forgetting history" (thus doomed to repeat it). A flag not appearing in a racing video game is not erasing history. You don't learn it there and you don't forget it there. Personally we all aught to be more mindful of what is in our textbookd than our racing video games. Wasted energy IMO.
 
warp9engage
To continue to use or not to continue to use the symbolism is up to the people behind its inception. If they say no, it's no good. If they say yes, we have to go with it, and give them a chance, as long as they don't start acting like they used to.
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As an African-American (specifically one that lives in the South), 🤬 that noise. They've had plenty of "chances" over the past ~160 years, and they've used their chances to bomb buses (useage of the N-Word present), bomb churches, lynch and mutilate, block our basic rights, and probably a very significant number of other events that escape me at the moment.

Try telling the black population that they "have to go with it," in spite of all the terrible things done to us by people loyal to the ideology that the flag actually represents, and see how seriously they take you.

History is written by the victors,...
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No, it isn't.




Regardless, it's a pity that there are Northerners that still think that way of the Southerners and Sountherners that still think that way of the Northerners. It means that the hate is being passed on to future generations when it should be erased.
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If someone tries to brand the North as the "traitors" that started the civil war, then they are, best case scenario, extremely ignorant of historical events and ideologies.

If they firmly believe they're right, they'll have no problem admitting it the second they can.
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And as such they don't get to be offended if/when their viewpoints becomes the subject of criticism.

It's just wrong to look for dogwhistles in people all the time, always assuming the worse.
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Which is something that minorities (African-Americans in particular) have been saying for the past 100+ years. And I promise you, the people that have been offended by the Battle Flag coming under fire (there's a joke somewhere in here) tend to out themselves more often than not. There's no need to look for dogwhistles when the individuals themselves show their true colors with little issue.

.......

As for the topic at hand, Turn 10/Microsoft are private companies, and as such are well within their bounds to change their policy, and are not infringing on anybody's personal rights by doing so. If that's a deal breaker for some players, then that shows a lot more about the player in question than anything else.
 
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MatskiMonk
Half the stuff at Japfest is emblazoned with the rising sun... I think the meaning or purpose of it here goes even more unnoticed than the confederate flag.
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The fact that it's called Japfest is pretty shocking tbh. Calling a Japanese person that is, in my understanding, a definite no-no.

Anyhoo, this is a good move. Use the state flags instead, the South Carolina one is one of the most stylish flags I've ever seen.

Times change too, and that's fine. You only have two choices really - accept change or resist it. I choose accept in this case, because the southern states were fighting to keep slavery, this isn't really disputed. So a flag that represents them, is racist.

Pretty simple.

Symbols are not just a design, they're important. And if they represent historical injustices, they should not be encouraged. If you can't accept that, then maybe, just maybe, you're agreeing with what they (quite obviously) stood for, which is to keep slavery. Which may (quite possibly) make you a racist.
 
ITS AN ICONIC DESIGN,that should've been banned from the face of the earth a long time ago.Americans are terrible about this stuff.
Turn 10 didnt burn every history book that talks about the atrocities confederates commited so the argument of "erasing history" is nonsense.
P.S: That show destroyed so many chargers that i'm surprised it isn't mocked in car forums :lol:
 
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Famine
As a quick note, I'm obviously on the outside of this - both as a non-Forza player and a non-American - but I've done my best to stick to the absolute facts without prejudice of the use and meaning of the flag. If there's an error in there, please let me know politely; I don't really care about the flag, I think racists are ****s, and I think Forza is a private service which can do what it wants (and any 1A arguments are negated by the fact it is indeed a private service), so there's as close to a disinterested viewpoint as you can get here...

... which probably means everyone on all sides will hate the article :lol:
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It's your thang, @Famine. Do what you wanna do. I can't tell ya, who to sock it to.
 
Jimmy Taggart
As has already been said, where will it all end? The General Lee is an iconic car because of it's design not because it's racist, many people will have downloaded it (or even designed a car inspired by it, like me) purely for nostalgic reasons associated with the programme, not because they are racist. What next, ban all people who have ever designed or downloaded a General Lee paint job?
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Sorry I should have been more clearer. I wasn't pointing about Game rights or internet rights. I was referring to our constitutional rights in general that the government is trying to take away Nothing to do with T10 or this flag.Its the movement behind It and won't end until all freedom rights are gone. There already burning our American Flag and many don't say a word. They will ban it that sooner or later as it now offends so many sadly.
 
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ron24
It won't end until all freedom rights are gone. There already burning our American Flag and many don't say a word. They will ban it that sooner or later as it now offends so many sadly.
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Exactly what rights have you lost, and what ones are you losing because of this?
 
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