Forza3 Definitive Trailer: AKA Why we are better than GT5 w Pro Racer Testimonials.

[phil-t]

I'm quite sure your being sarcastic

Comparing a touched up photo mode pic to a real-time pic taken off a TV screen with a digital camera is hardly fair.

Besides, Turn 10 would kill to have their car models look as good as GT5 car models do in real time.

Forza 3's Audi R8 looks great in the showroom and in bull shots, and so does the GT5 R8, but in game the GT5 R8's engine (and other mid-engine cars) retains all it's high definition detail, while the realtime Forza R8's engine bay becomes a low textured smeared mess.

Turn 10 got close to PD in modeling detail (still behind PD in the nuances, like realistic/proper looking carbon, leather, plastics etc), but the 360 cannot handle the models in real time, even though there is only 8 of them on track at just 720p.

I honestly don't think it's a case the 360 can't handle more then 8 cars because of the models etc..


I'm sure it's because they spend their resources elsewhere, with all cars being deformable, modelled undercarragies, user livery, 360Hz physics, higher detailed scenery models (not sure they achieve the results though)..

Now, do not take this is a dig at GT5, it is only to show that resources are always limited by something..
Just looking at the GT5 video, the low-res bonnet reflections, the low-res/dithered tree shadows, the wheel LOD, rolling starts, would indicate that 10 cars in that demo was a 'struggle' for the PS3..

The developers have their own decisions as to what to do, T10 seem to not have the luxury of development time, so cater for the lowest common denominator, all tracks have 8 car grid starts, all cars deform, all classes of car are treated the same (No premium cars).. I guess it provides a consistent game performance (But suffers in terms of absolutes to GT5).

And I wouldn't go judging FM3's LOD just yet (regarding the R8 texture point), until we get the game and can see ourselves what's the best/worst LOD (depending on cars on screen, etc), it's hard to make concrete judgements, we can all find bad examples and good examples of games, it's putting them into context. This goes for GT5's low LOD wheels/Shadows as well..

 

[blademask]

I honestly don't think it's a case the 360 can't handle more then 8 cars because of the models etc..


I'm sure it's because they spend their resources elsewhere, with all cars being deformable, modelled undercarragies, user livery, 360Hz physics, higher detailed scenery models (not sure they achieve the results though)..

Now, do not take this is a dig at GT5, it is only to show that resources are always limited by something..
Just looking at the GT5 video, the low-res bonnet reflections, the low-res/dithered tree shadows, the wheel LOD, rolling starts, would indicate that 10 cars in that demo was a 'struggle' for the PS3..

The developers have their own decisions as to what to do, T10 seem to not have the luxury of development time, so cater for the lowest common denominator, all tracks have 8 car grid starts, all cars deform, all classes of car are treated the same (No premium cars).. I guess it provides a consistent game performance (But suffers in terms of absolutes to GT5).

And I wouldn't go judging FM3's LOD just yet (regarding the R8 texture point), until we get the game and can see ourselves what's the best/worst LOD (depending on cars on screen, etc), it's hard to make concrete judgements, we can all find bad examples and good examples of games, it's putting them into context. This goes for GT5's low LOD wheels/Shadows as well..

LoL.. if the 360 could handle more than 8 vehicles, it would. Forza's deformation isn't intense, nor has it been shown to be. I repeat, nor has it ever been shown to be. Low polygon shapes under a car aren't that demanding to an engine either when you consider how detailed Gran Turismo's headlights are in comparison, as well as lighting detail. Forza's bonnet reflections aren't done with cubemaps, as the rest of the world is done. Its a rendering trick much like in PGR4, and it only works in the 1 view. It takes the image in front of you and uses that as the reflection map. Which is why it reflects everything, because its literally the image projected onto a hood.

Forza3 doesn't have as detailed reflections\lighting\shading as GT's real-time vehicles on the track. GT may have LOD geometry, as does crysis. And its LOD vehicles create better photo realistic images than Forza ever will apparently. Even though its low res, its higher resolution than F3's actual reflections are, not the bonnet view.

The same song and dance was said about #2, and it turned out with 8 vehicles as well. Same exact process, NOTHING but bullshots until 1 week near launch then everyone will see the game doesn't have DOF/ObjectBlur/12xAA/High Resolution models. Super amazing tyre modeling & super oh my god physics. Then what shipped? Yeah Forza2.

Now, unless 8 vehicles in a racing sim is the golden ratio, its the hardware limitations. Which most people can clearly see, and its barely pushing out 720p, where GT is 1280x1080 with 16. KY/PD said the damage will be MESH DEFORMATION as well. The 360's games just don't have the hardware to almost double in performance. Look at Gears 1 vs Gears 2 vs say, Uncharted 1 vs Uncharted2.

People give forzas "damage" wayyyy too much credit compared to Dirt/Motorstorm2 etc. Bending fiberglass at 150mph is just that, bending fiberglass.

Race online on Expert once in a while if you want your stopped starting grid.

You can nitpick all day but you can't deny that GT's final image is more photo real than any sim on the market. We can all zoom in and find stuff wrong, but from a couch.. its no competition.

 

[Simple SIM]

I respect your opinion but I disagree.

For me the only advantages it has over GT is features such as painting, auction house. This means nothing to me because im a racer and want a racing game.

I feel GT has an advantage in nearly every other aspect. What I love about PD is there attention to detail. However this cannot be said for Turn 10, although to be fair there not allowed nowhere near the same development time. Forza 3 has many missing features and this will be illustrated when GT5 is released.

P.S when I say FM3 tracks look cartoony I say this because they remind me of the racing games I used to play back in the 1990s at the seaside. Nice colourful graphics but far from realistic!

I don't feel you're being very fair in your comparison.

I own both a PS3 and 2 360's ( 1 broke and I got impatient while it was getting fixed so I bought another one LOL ), I own every GT game and every Forza game ( and a LOT of other racing games I won't bother listing )

I am a fan of both games and here is IMO a more fair comparison....

Gran Turismo

GT has always had the largest selection of cars and tracks. Just tons and tons of content. A true "encyclopedia." It also has the most realistic graphics. From the attention to detail of every car to the amazing lighting engines they create which makes everything look....well....realistic.

It also has a very solid driving model that crunches alot of physics calculations. It's very accurate and very satisfying.

However I feel that's about the end of GT's strengths over the competition.




Forza

Not the highest number of cars, but the cars they had were all of a very high quality. They all feature damage modeling and are all customizable to the Nth degree.

Forza's driving model is just as accurate at GT's infact maybe even a tad better. The major difference I've noticed is that the physics model that governs your car is ALSO applied to the other cars on the track in Forza. In GT there is very much one physics model for you and a another far inferior physics model for the other AI drivers. And this is really obvious when your and their car collide in any way. Some people refer to this as "collision modeling" but I feel it is a result of 2 separate physics models on one track that don't jive very well with each other

AI - Forza AI is far superior to GT's. I would even go so far as to say I doubt GT even HAS AI. Time and time again the AI drivers have shown me that they are completely oblivious to my car or any of the other AI cars on the track. They just stick to their line. How can you even have an AI if it's not even aware of my presence? I don't think anyone here would disagree that GT's AI has always been quite poor.

Online - Polyphony announced GT 4 would be online and then later took it back and ....well you know the rest. In Prologue they finally gave us online, but just barely. It's an extremely bare bones no frills online experience to say the least. Forza REALLY delivered in this area since their first game and have continued the improvements ever since.

Customization - Forza does everything GT does in this area and then a whole lot more. Not much else to say.

Sound - Forza's sound is VERY good while GT's needs improvement. I believe for us to count sound as one of GT fans biggest complaints.

Damage - Ever since the first game they have implemented it well and it has been for every car in the game. No exceptions.

EDIT : I can't believe I forgot to mention it.....

REPLAYS! - GT has perhaps THE most amazing replays in any racing game I've ever played ( and I think I've played most of them ). If turn 10 knows whats good for their game they'll flat out copy GT replays. I have heard that Forza 3 replays have been improved but it's too early to comment on it but I will say Forza 2 replays were.... I don't think Terrible is too strong a word.



This has been my comparison and I feel it has been as fair and unbiased as I could make it. When I see people who think GT just towers over the competition in every area, I think they either don't know the truth or don't choose to see it. I would know. I used to think the very same way.

I'm more than willing to have any debate and I will be very civil about it. I know that the VAST majority of you are not "fanboys."

 

[TECHNIKRS4]

+1 to the above post.

 

[phil-t]

LoL.. if the 360 could handle more than 8 vehicles, it would. Forza's deformation isn't intense, nor has it been shown to be. I repeat, nor has it ever been shown to be. Low polygon shapes under a car aren't that demanding to an engine either when you consider how detailed Gran Turismo's headlights are in comparison, as well as lighting detail. Forza's bonnet reflections aren't done with cubemaps, as the rest of the world is done. Its a rendering trick much like in PGR4, and it only works in the 1 view. It takes the image in front of you and uses that as the reflection map. Which is why it reflects everything, because its literally the image projected onto a hood.

Forza3 doesn't have as detailed reflections\lighting\shading as GT's real-time vehicles on the track. GT may have LOD geometry, as does crysis. And its LOD vehicles create better photo realistic images than Forza ever will apparently. Even though its low res, its higher resolution than F3's actual reflections are, not the bonnet view.

The same song and dance was said about #2, and it turned out with 8 vehicles as well. Same exact process, NOTHING but bullshots until 1 week near launch then everyone will see the game doesn't have DOF/ObjectBlur/12xAA/High Resolution models. Super amazing tyre modeling & super oh my god physics. Then what shipped? Yeah Forza2.

Now, unless 8 vehicles in a racing sim is the golden ratio, its the hardware limitations. Which most people can clearly see, and its barely pushing out 720p, where GT is 1280x1080 with 16. KY/PD said the damage will be MESH DEFORMATION as well. The 360's games just don't have the hardware to almost double in performance. Look at Gears 1 vs Gears 2 vs say, Uncharted 1 vs Uncharted2.

People give forzas "damage" wayyyy too much credit compared to Dirt/Motorstorm2 etc. Bending fiberglass at 150mph is just that, bending fiberglass.

Race online on Expert once in a while if you want your stopped starting grid.

You can nitpick all day but you can't deny that GT's final image is more photo real than any sim on the market. We can all zoom in and find stuff wrong, but from a couch.. its no competition.

You seem to be presenting your opinion as fact here..

To say the 360 cannot handle more then 8 cars is only true under the current FM3 graphics engine, which is quite different to GT5's, this is the point I think you fail to grasp, or are you stating the obvious? since we can't directly compare engines running on both consoles, other then one has it's own set of features with 8 cars, the other a different set of features with 10+ cars?

And, you can't possibly 'know' that more detail in headlamps in GT5 equates to anything in FM3, it's never that simple..

I'm not actually nit-picking GT5, this is a mis-apprehension on several people's parts, I see good and bad in each game, however I believe I'm quite balanced in my appraisal of each, and don't just pander to the strengths of one and the negatives of the other..

How can we have a discussion when all there seems to be is people taking the worst of one game and comparing the best of the other game, with any attempt to present a more balanced picture of the two so easily dismissed with 'LOL' etc..?


Forza has deficiences in it's lighting model that are very obvious, it has some LOD issues as well that have been seen so-far, and yes we all know the actual game will look worse then the photo-mode pics released, I am under no illusion that the graphics fidelity with regards to Photo-realism is very much in GT5's favour, and it's a game I'll enjoy looking and playing for many months.. But it also has it's flaws, and you can't compare both games until you can discuss both positive and negative about each.

Just some minor points
1. The deformation has been shown in some FM3 vids, there was one of a Le Sarthe track with LMP's that showed a white Dell liveried (IIRC) race car have reasonably severe deformation, it's not much better then FM2, but it's still a reasonable amount.
2. FM3 does use cubemaps in bonnet view of the previous frame (hence 60fps reflections), which is a 'trick' but a very valid one, and the rest of the views do have environment reflections just as GT5 does, I don't see a need to 'compare', or are you suggesting FM3 has no reflections at all other then bonnet view?

The thing is, I like GT5 like the next man, so it's becoming annoying that I'm being picked on for pointing out any negatives about it, or positives for FM3.. both have them in equal doses (IMO), that is all.. please look at my posts in other threads if you doubt my motives, all comparitive talk is here, and I am not favouring one game over the other..

To also be quite fair, I really think we should wait for the final game before nit-picking too much, I doubt the final GT5 will look as per the Demo, and they are still working on FM3 and have said the graphics in some aspects has improved quite a bit since E3.. At the moment, we are getting down and dirty with pre-release code, which may lead to incorrect information from either game.

 

[rsh]

@Simple SIM The nice thing about your post is that it is still your opinion.

I can say that for me GT5p is already better then FM2, and what I see is GT5 better then GT5.
You may think otherwise ofcourse.

What is annoying in this " debate" is that opinion and fact are melted together.
Facts are hard evidence, like 400 vs 1.000 cars in game.
Opinion is that you feel that the model dat FM uses is superior of that of GT.

If you want to prove that to me, make equal clips on youtube with equal cars on an equal track and I can compare it for myself. That would be more fact then opinion, to me 👍

 

[Blitz187]

I don't feel you're being very fair in your comparison.

I own both a PS3 and 2 360's ( 1 broke and I got impatient while it was getting fixed so I bought another one LOL ), I own every GT game and every Forza game ( and a LOT of other racing games I won't bother listing )

I am a fan of both games and here is IMO a more fair comparison....

Gran Turismo

GT has always had the largest selection of cars and tracks. Just tons and tons of content. A true "encyclopedia." It also has the most realistic graphics. From the attention to detail of every car to the amazing lighting engines they create which makes everything look....well....realistic.

It also has a very solid driving model that crunches alot of physics calculations. It's very accurate and very satisfying.

However I feel that's about the end of GT's strengths over the competition.




Forza

Not the highest number of cars, but the cars they had were all of a very high quality. They all feature damage modeling and are all customizable to the Nth degree.

Forza's driving model is just as accurate at GT's infact maybe even a tad better. The major difference I've noticed is that the physics model that governs your car is ALSO applied to the other cars on the track in Forza. In GT there is very much one physics model for you and a another far inferior physics model for the other AI drivers. And this is really obvious when your and their car collide in any way. Some people refer to this as "collision modeling" but I feel it is a result of 2 separate physics models on one track that don't jive very well with each other

AI - Forza AI is far superior to GT's. I would even go so far as to say I doubt GT even HAS AI. Time and time again the AI drivers have shown me that they are completely oblivious to my car or any of the other AI cars on the track. They just stick to their line. How can you even have an AI if it's not even aware of my presence? I don't think anyone here would disagree that GT's AI has always been quite poor.

Online - Polyphony announced GT 4 would be online and then later took it back and ....well you know the rest. In Prologue they finally gave us online, but just barely. It's an extremely bare bones no frills online experience to say the least. Forza REALLY delivered in this area since their first game and have continued the improvements ever since.

Customization - Forza does everything GT does in this area and then a whole lot more. Not much else to say.

Sound - Forza's sound is VERY good while GT's needs improvement. I believe for us to count sound as one of GT fans biggest complaints.

Damage - Ever since the first game they have implemented it well and it has been for every car in the game. No exceptions.





This has been my comparison and I feel it has been as fair and unbiased as I could make it. When I see people who think GT just towers over the competition in every area, I think they either don't know the truth or don't choose to see it. I would know. I used to think the very same way.

I'm more than willing to have any debate and I will be very civil about it. I know that the VAST majority of you are not "fanboys."

I can see you are NOT a fanboy... but I dont agree your comparison is totally unbiased and objective... Just look at how it reads.. you are obviously a bit biased towards Forza. You give credit to GT in your first paragraph and give only the points you think are good without elaboration... then when you move onto Forza you only give pros and no cons at all and no elaboration with a lot of opinion present in your comparison trying to come over as fact... hardly unbiased and objective...

 

[Simple SIM]

@Simple SIM The nice thing about your post is that it is still your opinion.

I can say that for me GT5p is already better then FM2, and what I see is GT5 better then GT5.
You may think otherwise ofcourse.

What is annoying in this " debate" is that opinion and fact are melted together.
Facts are hard evidence, like 400 vs 1.000 cars in game.
Opinion is that you feel that the model dat FM uses is superior of that of GT.

If you want to prove that to me, make equal clips on youtube with equal cars on an equal track and I can compare it for myself. That would be more fact then opinion, to me 👍

OK.

If you don't agree with something I've said because you believe it to be just an opinion, point it out and we can discuss it. Some of the things we will talk about are purely based on opinion but I feel there is much we can discuss within the realm of fact.

 

[Simple SIM]

I can see you are NOT a fanboy... but I dont agree your comparison is totally unbiased and objective... Just look at how it reads.. you are obviously a bit biased towards Forza. You give credit to GT in your first paragraph and give only the points you think are good without elaboration... then when you move onto Forza you only give pros and no cons at all and no elaboration with a lot of opinion present in your comparison trying to come over as fact... hardly unbiased and objective...

Well you see it wasn't my intention to write a review for either game. Or even to talk about negatives or positives. It was a comparison in responce to a post by IVORBIGUN where in a nutshell he claimed that Forza was good at painting and auction house but that it in no other way had any advantages over GT.

I don't believe that to be true. I believe each game has their own strengths and weaknesses.

If you believe I have said something biased or that is factually inaccurate I'm more than happy to discuss it.

 

[Blitz187]

Well you see it wasn't my intention to write a review for either game. Or even to talk about negatives or positives. It was a comparison in responce to a post by IVORBIGUN where in a nutshell he claimed that Forza was good at painting and auction house but that it in no other way had any advantages over GT.

I don't believe that to be true. I believe each game has their own strengths and weaknesses.

If you believe I have said something biased or that is factually inaccurate I'm more than happy to discuss it.

Ok, I did miss his post. So Im not up to date on that matter... but you did state your comparison is as unbiased as possible. And in reading I can see you tried that but it didnt work out entirely in the context as you wanted it too I think... I am totally with you that both games are good in their own right... but I interpret that comparison as leaning more towards Forza and being a bit biased in that sense as well... So I was just really commenting on the fact that you thought it was unbiased and I didnt quite see that in my interpretation. Your main point in something I agree with though, which is that both games have their strengths and weeknesses. Its just some of the wording used made it seem like to like Forza better... with as an example the tuning bit... I see it like this... in that department, just to give an example, the only thing Forza has extra would be the livery editor... in the tuning area they come close with Forza having a bit more telemetry and such, also being a bit more advanced... but to state this:

Customization - Forza does everything GT does in this area and then a whole lot more. Not much else to say.

Is not being totally unbiased if you catch my drift... This smells of opinion stated as fact... so I guess the execution of your comparison threw me off a bit and gave me the impression of a biased comparison leaning towards Forza...

 

[Joey D]

Your main point in something I agree with Is not being totally unbiased if you catch my drift... This smells of opinion stated as fact... so I guess the execution of your comparison threw me off a bit and gave me the impression of an unbiased comparison leaning towards Forza...

I don't know, he statement seemed pretty accurate to me. Forza does everything GT does in the customisation area (i.e. rims and spoilers) plus a whole lot more (i.e. body kits, custom colours, liveries, etc.).

As for being unbiased? There are thousands of GT biased posts in this thread alone, why do you not point those out? And yes there are people that claim to be neutral but have a huge GT bias. No one is going to be totally unbiased in anything, so what's the point in arguing it?

I'm not unbiased, I'll admit that, I just don't think I care as much as most of you do. I have had more fun with past Forza's than past GT's so therefore I like the Forza series better. However this does not mean I think the GT series is bad.

 

[Simple SIM]

Ok, I did miss his post. So Im not up to date on that matter... but you did state your comparison is as unbiased as possible. And in reading I can see you tried that but it didnt work out entirely in the context as you wanted it too I think... I am totally with you that both games are good in their own right... but I interpret that comparison as leaning more towards Forza and being a bit biased in that sense as well... So I was just really commenting on the fact that you thought it was unbiased and I didnt quite see that in my interpretation. Your main point in something I agree with though, which is that both games have their strengths and weeknesses. Its just some of the wording used made it seem like to like Forza better... with as an example the tuning bit... I see it like this... in that department, just to give an example, the only thing Forza has extra would be the livery editor... in the tuning area they come close with Forza having a bit more telemetry and such, also being a bit more advanced... but to state this:



Is not being totally unbiased if you catch my drift... This smells of opinion stated as fact... so I guess the execution of your comparison threw me off a bit and gave me the impression of an unbiased comparison leaning towards Forza...

I see what you're saying.


About my comment.....

"Customization - Forza does everything GT does in this area and then a whole lot more. Not much else to say."

Because I own both games I have upgraded and tuned cars on both and both games really are extremely equivalent. A more in-depth comparison would have to be REALLY in-depth....and LONG

My comment about "then a whole lot more" was to do with the livery editor and only the livery editor, not to do with upgrades or tuning.

My #1 most anticipated "reveal" for GT 5 has got to be hearing about the nuts and bolt of the Online implementation. I'm also DYING to know about weather, day/night races and a possible track editor.

Because Good online and a Track editor basically nullify any complaints regarding AI ( who cares about AI when you can race against real people ) or that 20 tracks "leak" which may or may not be true.

👍

 

[Blitz187]

I don't know, he statement seemed pretty accurate to me. Forza does everything GT does in the customisation area (i.e. rims and spoilers) plus a whole lot more (i.e. body kits, custom colours, liveries, etc.).

As for being unbiased? There are thousands of GT biased posts in this thread alone, why do you not point those out? And yes there are people that claim to be neutral but have a huge GT bias. No one is going to be totally unbiased in anything, so what's the point in arguing it?

I'm not unbiased, I'll admit that, I just don't think I care as much as most of you do. I have had more fun with past Forza's than past GT's so therefore I like the Forza series better. However this does not mean I think the GT series is bad.

Of course there are GT biased posts here.. but Im not going to go through 100 pages to look for them.. I came into the thread and saw this and saw his statement at the end about being unbiased and I didnt agree... thats all... Im not arguing, Im not saying GT is better... I was merely pointing out the fact that he thought he was unbiased and I didnt think the same... I interpret his posts as biased... and biased toward Forza... So sue me... or tell me how YOU interpret it and your opinion about it instead of telling me to point out all the GT biased posts and that Im arguing... Im not flame-baiting or flaming and I think Simple_SIM knows that...

Also, atleast you admit to being biased, a lot of people dont like you say...

I see what you're saying.


About my comment.....

"Customization - Forza does everything GT does in this area and then a whole lot more. Not much else to say."

Because I own both games I have upgraded and tuned cars on both and both games really are extremely equivalent. A more in-depth comparison would have to be REALLY in-depth....and LONG

My comment about "then a whole lot more" was to do with the livery editor and only the livery editor, not to do with upgrades or tuning.

My #1 most anticipated "reveal" for GT 5 has got to be hearing about the nuts and bolt of the Online implementation. I'm also DYING to know about weather, day/night races and a possible track editor.

Because Good online and a Track editor basically nullify any complaints regarding AI ( who cares about AI when you can race against real people ) or that 20 tracks "leak" which may or may not be true.

👍

Ok, well atleast we understand each other I have honestly not played Forza 2 thoroughly... I did play Forza 1 for quite a while... but I am actually not qualified to be commenting about FM2... I just know a little bit from what Ive played and seen at friends houses...

I am also curious to the online implementation, which I think is a big focus of GT as well since theyve had plenty of time to experiment with GT5 👍 Also things like head-tracking will make it all the more interesting...

 

[Simple SIM]

I don't know, he statement seemed pretty accurate to me. Forza does everything GT does in the customisation area (i.e. rims and spoilers) plus a whole lot more (i.e. body kits, custom colours, liveries, etc.).

As for being unbiased? There are thousands of GT biased posts in this thread alone, why do you not point those out? And yes there are people that claim to be neutral but have a huge GT bias. No one is going to be totally unbiased in anything, so what's the point in arguing it?

I'm not unbiased, I'll admit that, I just don't think I care as much as most of you do. I have had more fun with past Forza's than past GT's so therefore I like the Forza series better. However this does not mean I think the GT series is bad.

Well said.👍

I'm a fan of BOTH Games. But discussing both games online can be hard. There are a lot of people out there ( forums mostly ) who I've met in the past who think that fans of GT AND Forza don't actually exist.

If I don't pick a side, hate "the other game" and defend one game to the death..... then fanboys just can't comprehend me LOL

 

[rsh]

OK.

If you don't agree with something I've said because you believe it to be just an opinion, point it out and we can discuss it. Some of the things we will talk about are purely based on opinion but I feel there is much we can discuss within the realm of fact.

My only point was, and I see this all the time, that someones opinion is brought as fact. And I smelt a tendancy of that in your post.
read the following posts things have become clear now.

I won't go into an indepth FM/GT is better discussion.
I won't buy FM because I don't have an XBOX360, nor will I ever get one. So there for I can only judged on the thing I see in clips on youtube.

The handeling and feel could be diffrent for everybody, so there is the mix up between opinion and fact again

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Forza's driving model is just as accurate at GT's infact maybe even a tad better. The major difference I've noticed is that the physics model that governs your car is ALSO applied to the other cars on the track in Forza. In GT there is very much one physics model for you and a another far inferior physics model for the other AI drivers. And this is really obvious when your and their car collide in any way. Some people refer to this as "collision modeling" but I feel it is a result of 2 separate physics models on one track that don't jive very well with each other

AI - Forza AI is far superior to GT's. I would even go so far as to say I doubt GT even HAS AI. Time and time again the AI drivers have shown me that they are completely oblivious to my car or any of the other AI cars on the track. They just stick to their line. How can you even have an AI if it's not even aware of my presence? I don't think anyone here would disagree that GT's AI has always been quite poor.



Sound - Forza's sound is VERY good while GT's needs improvement. I believe for us to count sound as one of GT fans biggest complaints



This has been my comparison and I feel it has been as fair and unbiased as I could make it. When I see people who think GT just towers over the competition in every area, I think they either don't know the truth or don't choose to see it. I would know. I used to think the very same way.

I'm more than willing to have any debate and I will be very civil about it. I know that the VAST majority of you are not "fanboys."

Again I disagree with many points.

The physics engine of FM2 was very poor IMO and you only have to watch replays of the top times to see the flaws. Many of my top times have been set in the same gear for the entire lap!

A.I is dreadful. I have over 100 top 10 career/exhibtion times on FM2 so im fully aware of the A.I. They are completely oblivious to your track position and react as though you don't exist.

The sound cannot compete because the 360 only outputs 5.1DD. The PS3 outputs 7.1 DTS HD and is miles superior to the 360. Also on FM2 the 5.1 DD sound was incorrectly programmed so you don't get true surround sound.

GT5 will be better than FM3 because.

1. More cars.
2. More tracks.
3 16 online
4. Top gear TT
5. Better graphics
6. Better physics
7. day/night races.

This is just my opinion though.

 

[Northstar]

Just because the PS3 supports 7.1 and the 360 doesn;t doesn't mean that GT5 will sound better. At least in my opinion the cars alsways sounded better in the Forza series.

Now for your list.
1) Obvious, however we will have to wait to see if they are all of the same quality.
2) Not seen yet, judging from the translation F3 will have more than GT5
3) Obviously better
4) Not that big of a deal as it will probaby just be for TT
5) Yet to be seen since neither is out yet
6) Same as 5
7) Not even a hint that it will be in the game

 

[phil-t]

Again I disagree with many points.

The physics engine of FM2 was very poor IMO and you only have to watch replays of the top times to see the flaws. Many of my top times have been set in the same gear for the entire lap!

This may be worth discussing, as at least we can compare FM/GT to date.

IMO physics are split into 3 main areas and each game is quite different
1. Grip Physics
In terms of 'grip', FM's physics IMO are OK, but not as good as GT5p, as many will testify, GT5's are closer to real life in terms of tyre grip and feeling. The only area I prefer FM over GT is that grass/kerbs etc are a bit too non-reactive in GT5p.
2. Suspension Reaction.
I think it's hard to judge, I definitely like FM's weight transfer and suspension reaction, the outcome of every corner on the limit feels 'different' in that it depends on exactly how much weight transfer occurs and how, it's hard to drive super consistent because of it. In GT5p it feels much more consistent, and when on the limit, the weight transfer and suspension seem indentical lap after lap which I think is because it isn't doing the same calculations (IMO).
3. Collision Physics (Hitting other cars/barriers)
FM had issues with this, mainly that low speed impacts with other cars/barriers is too agressive, normal 'contact' however was quite well modelled. GT5p definitely lacks in this area (IMO), hit another car and it's wholly unrealistic.

I think we all have our preferences, and I'm sure you all interpret the game differently.. My views do align with the SRT review in that it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other, in other words on balance, both good enough.

I don't subscribe to the 'laptimes' notion, sure you may be able to post close to real life laptimes, but there are too many factors that contribute, other then physics that to just show that as proof of a physics engine would seem invalid. For example, track scale, or car speed scale/engine parameters and the physics all have to be spot on to get real life laptimes.. I've seen the F1 youtube vid of the F1 car, and although it looks impressive, the fact the front tyres are half the width of the real car and yet it has the same grip as the real thing seems at odds? or am I reading it wrong..

Sensible debate is welcome..

 

[Simple SIM]

Again I disagree with many points.

The physics engine of FM2 was very poor IMO and you only have to watch replays of the top times to see the flaws. Many of my top times have been set in the same gear for the entire lap!

A.I is dreadful. I have over 100 top 10 career/exhibtion times on FM2 so im fully aware of the A.I. They are completely oblivious to your track position and react as though you don't exist.

The sound cannot compete because the 360 only outputs 5.1DD. The PS3 outputs 7.1 DTS HD and is miles superior to the 360. Also on FM2 the 5.1 DD sound was incorrectly programmed so you don't get true surround sound.

For most of your post I don't feel the need to respond as Justin has already done so and I agree with his points.

1. Unless it's an oval it's barely even possible to get around a track using a single gear let alone finish with a top time.

2. Using DD7.1 does not make the sound of the engines any better. Using your logic every PS3 game sounds better than every game that uses "merely" DD 5.1 regardless of the actual sound. I can't even come close to agreeing with you on this for obvious reasons.

3. I find it surpising that you would even try to argue that the AI in GT is anywhere close to the AI in Forza. You have claimed that the AI in Forza is not aware of you and act as though you don't exist. This is factually wrong.

Here is a link to a short Forza 2 video on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2PVn-ieJHY

*Description* - It is an AI test designed to showcase that the AI in Forza 2 are infact aware of you and will actively try to avoid you.

The players car starts a race but doesn't go anywhere, just sits on the starting line waiting for the AI to come around for the 2nd lap. The AI does not slam into the back but rather alters course and drives around. He then changes his position and tries his best to block the cars for their next pass but once again the AI cars "see" you , alter course and drive around.

To say that the AI in Forza 2 is oblivious to your presence is factually incorrect.

That very same test the AI in GT will fail every time. They don't see you, aren't aware of you and will slam into the back of you every time if you happen to be on their predetermined racing line.

 

[Zer0]

They don't see you, aren't aware of you and will slam into the back of you every time if you happen to be on their predetermined racing line.

Example 1:
I (F430) stop accelerating right after the rolling start, this happens:

Notice the cars behind also turn and break the line.

Example 2:
2 seconds after the first gif, I put my self infront of the car, he brakes, all other cars turn to avoid the crash

Example 3:
I fail an overtake and slow down, car behind brakes and slows down as well so it doesn't crash, then it overtakes

Example 4:
I slow down, he doesn't brake but goes offtrack for an aggressive overtake.

Example 5:
Same spot, same race, same cars, I slow down again but now he slows down and overtakes through the right instead of left like the first time

Example 6:
Right after the Example 5 I over take and then slow down infront of him

All this happened in the same race. It wasn't something I had to search hard for.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Just because the PS3 supports 7.1 and the 360 doesn;t doesn't mean that GT5 will sound better. At least in my opinion the cars alsways sounded better in the Forza series.

Now for your list.
1) Obvious, however we will have to wait to see if they are all of the same quality.
2) Not seen yet, judging from the translation F3 will have more than GT5
3) Obviously better
4) Not that big of a deal as it will probaby just be for TT
5) Yet to be seen since neither is out yet
6) Same as 5
7) Not even a hint that it will be in the game

Obviously until both are released we cannot say my opinions are right.


However based on previous experience of playing GT5P/FM2, latest video footage, announcements, im fairly confident my predictions will be correct.

The problem with Forza 3 is instead of Turn 10 adding additional features to please the loyal fanbase they have added additional features that welcome arcade racers. Also what disappoints me hugely with FM3 is only having 8 on the grid.

To say that the AI in Forza 2 is oblivious to your presence is factually incorrect.

.

As for the A.I. Im sorry but I have ran the career 4 times and exhibition 3 times trying to improve my times and I doubt you have put this much time against the A.I. Trust me when I say but running perfect laps only for the A.I to knock you off the road is very irritating. I found it incredible that you would lap the A.I even when the difficulty is set on hard and this is after just 9 laps.

Anyone who thinks the A.I is excellent on FM2 obviously hasn't run the career,Exhibition competitively!

What was your gamertag on FM2 and what is your position on the career/exhibition rollup leaderboards?

 

[Simple SIM]

ZerO

I have seen those GIFs before. The problem with those is that they aren't consistent with most peoples experiences with the AI. Those GIFs are just as easily taken from an online race/replay and not the AI at all.

In out latest peak of GT 5 ( from GamerCom ) we have video after video showcasing the AI behaving..... nothing like the AI in any of those GIFs. And we can guarantee that those are infact AI from the game and not other drivers online.

For example this video.... (4:00 - 4:20)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPM2g-UsCM

It clearly shows AI crashing straight into you time and time again. More than that, once they have crashed into you their wheels can clearly be seen spinning as though they are just trying to accelerate right through your car.

Can you explain these glaring inconsistencies?

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

I will also add that I couldn't give a monkeys about the A.I.

Since broadband playing against the A.I is something to just get through. Now when I play racing games I just want to aqquire all the cars so I can concentrate on what I love, racing online, hotlapping. I often find single player career races a bore!

Im actually the same with COD series. No interest in single player,I just want to shoot people online lol.

 

[phil-t]

Obviously until both are released we cannot say my opinions are right.


However based on previous experience of playing GT5P/FM2, latest video footage, announcements, im fairly confident my predictions will be correct.

The problem with Forza 3 is instead of Turn 10 adding additional features to please the loyal fanbase they have added additional features that welcome arcade racers. Also what disappoints me hugely with FM3 is only having 8 on the grid.

As for the A.I. Im sorry but I have ran the career 4 times and exhibition 3 times trying to improve my times and I doubt you have put this much time against the A.I. Trust me when I say but running perfect laps only for the A.I to knock you off the road is very irritating. I found it incredible that you would lap the A.I even when the difficulty is set on hard and this is after just 9 laps.

Anyone who thinks the A.I is excellent on FM2 obviously hasn't run the career,Exhibition competitively!

I don't think FM AI is excellent, it's pretty par for the course (IMO), possibly better in some ways to GT5p, I don't really know, they both suck at times, so agree with that..

However, I don't agree that you think FM3 isn't adding anything for the loyal fanbase..
1. The improved physics - a nice step up from FM2 by all reviews so far. This includes more correct centres of gravity on top of the tyre physics etc
2. The Improved A.I. - can be pressured into mistakes, and said to be reworked (will have to see how it pans out)
3. More extensive tuning and upgrades
4. Improved collision physics - other cars don't react the same as barriers and you can 'trade paint' much better
5. Much more in-depth race customisation to allow very intricate on-line racing series with masses of rules
6. Store front to radically change how tuners/painters can interact with the community
7. Extensive replay editing (of some description)
8. All cars now paintable so league racers can livery up their cars
9. Interiors added and ability to switch off any HUD element.
10. More cars/tracks

In fact the only things I can think of for the casual racer are
1. One button driving (Brake assist)
2. Rewind..

I really would like to see how you justify your opinion on this, the only area they haven't improved is the 8 car limit, which isn't the end of the world (It would be nice to have it all!)..

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

I really would like to see how you justify your opinion on this, the only area they haven't improved is the 8 car limit, which isn't the end of the world (It would be nice to have it all!)..

Some of the most requested additions for FM3 from the forza regulars are:

1. Bugatti Veyron.
2. Top Gear test track.
3. Day/night cycles.
4. Changeable weather.
5. Option for changing strategy when pitting.
6. Grid of 10/12/16.

None of these make FM3.

 

[phil-t]

Some of the most requested additions for FM3 from the forza regulars are:

1. Bugatti Veyron.
2. Top Gear test track.
3. Day/night cycles.
4. Changeable weather.
5. Option for changing strategy when pitting.
6. Grid of 10/12/16.

None of these make FM3.

I frequent FM.NET too, and I'd say that it's quite a minority asking for those... and most are niceties not necessities..

Just a few points.
1. The Bugatti Veyron is most likely in, a hint was dropped on Neogaf by T10.
2. Top Gear Test Track, hardly a popular request, but how on earth do we know PD haven't got an exclusive on that? If it is popular, it can make it to DLC.
5. This hasn't been revealed yet as far as I've seen.

The other 3 would all be welcomed, but in 2 years to make the improvements they have, and captured so many requests, it's damn good going..

I think you are unfairly criticising them, where is the huge list of features that are pandering to the 'arcade racer'? if that list outweighs the other lists, I can see how you could come to that opinion, but if it's as short as I suspect, you are just being a little unreasonable with your demands, I hope GT5 delivers on all it's promises/expectations or you will be disappointed with that too? I wont be..

Even then, why would what other people want affect your decision? you say you don't care about A.I. and like hotlapping, so why would more cars be a real let down? I think your reasoning is highly inconsistent.

 

[Simple SIM]

Some of the most requested additions for FM3 from the forza regulars are:

1. Bugatti Veyron.
2. Top Gear test track.
3. Day/night cycles.
4. Changeable weather.
5. Option for changing strategy when pitting.
6. Grid of 10/12/16.

None of these make FM3.

The Veyron is in Forza 3. As far as Weather and changing day night cycles, the exact same thing can be said about GT, but there's no evidence those are in the game.

The truth is that EVERYONE wants day night cycles with adjustable weather. The good news is that One day we will have these things because one of these two games will implement it and then the other game will have to do it too.

I also fail to see what your point is, he clearly demonstrated that there have been many major changes and additions to Forza 3 and your response seems to be a list of what you say people want and what won't be in the game. He proved his point and you simply changed the subject.

Do you think it would be hard to do what you did but in reverse?

Some of the most requested additions for FM3 GT 5 from the forza GT regulars are:

1. Porche
2. More than 30 tracks
3. Day Night cycles
4. Changeable Weather
5. All cars having damage modeling and not just the "premium" ones
6. A livery editor and auction house.
7. Skid marks

None of these make GT 5.

See what I did there?

 

[Zer0]

Those GIFs are just as easily taken from an online race/replay and not the AI at all.

You can't show replays from online races or change to another cars views. Have you played the Prologue? is nothing strange to find those situations.

In out latest peak of GT 5 ( from GamerCom ) we have video after video showcasing the AI behaving..... nothing like the AI in any of those GIFs. And we can guarantee that those are infact AI from the game and not other drivers online.

Can you explain these glaring inconsistencies?

Completely different tracks, different situations, different distance between cars, track width, different game builds(a blocked demo vs customizable game), new AI unadjusted parameters, etc.. can be a lot of things.

 

[The_Paladin]

Some of the most requested additions for FM3 from the forza regulars are:

1. Bugatti Veyron.
2. Top Gear test track.
3. Day/night cycles.
4. Changeable weather.
5. Option for changing strategy when pitting.
6. Grid of 10/12/16.

None of these make FM3.

-Cockpit view
-Bugatti Veyron
-Mustan fox body
-Skyline R33
-Better Career mode.
-Drifting
-Drag racing
-Fujimi Kaido back

Those are far more popular request and they are in the game.

If PD would listen their community like that then GT5 would have lot more things and Forza wont ever be winning in features. Forza 1 kicked GT4 in features because they did almost everything that GT fans have been asking to be added or fixed.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Thats it im buying FM3 because it has skid marks lol.

Only joking chaps. No point continuing this debate because its going in circles. What I want in a racing game may differ to others.

Personally GT5 will offer alot more for me and others as the sales of both games will clearly show.