Gran Turismo 6 AI discussion

[Jawehawk]

No, just put AI diffculty on medium or hard as arcade mode.

I found really good AI in Gran Turismo 5. It overtakes, it avoids accident if possible, just missing difficulty. But other racing games, no one does it better, IMO.

While the arcade AI in GT5 isn't horrible, it leaves a lot to be desired. Espicially on tracks like La Sarthe. And there are most definately games out there that has done a better job on the AI. Try out Race '07. Absolutely brilliant AI in that game. Also has flag rules, which is a very nice addition.

 

[Tenacious D]

It takes the cloud data from your friends, like speed through corners, their line, and steering inputs, then uses the built in AI algorithms and mesh it all together to form the AI.

I hope those real data sent to the cloud servers are those of clean and skilled drivers, not kids or casuals who love to do dirty driving and make tons of mistakes or just sunday driving at the track instead of racing. It will be interesting how the cloud will differentiate them, one can post quick lap times driving dirty and cutting corners or uses all aids available which will blur the actual driver input.

What they said, although I think what Forza 5 does is collate racing techniques from the better drivers on Live. If it is from your friend's list, I stand corrected, haven't really felt like keeping up with a game I'm not buying until it costs less than $900 to "jump in." Anyway, Forza's Drivatar technology is fascinating stuff, though I hate the bots. "Aggressive" isn't quite strong enough of a word to describe their behavior. Quick edit because I'm still waking up: hopefully for those happy campers in that other zone, this A.I. will be aggressive in the right way, and the Drivatar learning algorithms will be a benefit.

GT5's bots really aren't bad in Arcade Mode, but as Zlork posts, they need a little attention. I'd prefer if they braked like humans do, not slam on or flutter with assists to smooth things out, though it seems a lot of racers do the same thing. The biggest issue is how they usually creep through turns.

A little more aggression, a little more human behavior, realistic turn taking, and GT6's bots would be on par or better than just about all racing games. Which honestly, aren't all that and a bag of granola anyhow.

 

[research]

well these other guys have mentioned TOCA series, Race 07, and even Viper Racing by Monster Games in 1998 as having VERY competitive A.I.

And I will unabashedly go on record saying that the A.I. in dirt2 was all that, a bag of premium granola, and some Jones Soda on the side.

(blue rasberry flavor)

 

[AnAL0G]

GT focuses on driving simulation (self-described) rather than the racing aspect. However, that is not actually what the game turns out to be. A-Spec is racing. A-Spec is not just having a bunch of cars and driving them around in isolation. You place as high as possible to earn the most credits. It's a mock form of racing at the least. I also have to say that the system currently in place is literally the worst AI system that I can think of for existing racing games. Whether it's the AI taking the same slalom lines through La Sarthe, or the way that they just fall off when you overtake, it's literally 15 years behind the mark for AI performance.

While the aspect of owning a number of cars and being able to simulate a driving experience alone is fantastic, even still the AI behavior and the layout of what constitutes the A-Spec mode (required for the ownership of those cars) is extremely poor, and it's why you come across descriptions such as "grinding" when referring to playing the game in its fundamental state to either complete a portion of the game or to acquire more cars.

 

[avens]

It takes the cloud data from your friends, like speed through corners, their line, and steering inputs, then uses the built in AI algorithms and mesh it all together to form the AI.

Which worked spectacularly well in Mario Kart and in other games. The ones I've tried have really fooled me into thinking I was playing with people live, which is something AI can never surpass and perfecting it is the last step (which probably FM5 will not reach on the first try).

And BTW I think GTR2's AI is better than GT5's.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It takes the cloud data from your friends, like speed through corners, their line, and steering inputs, then uses the built in AI algorithms and mesh it all together to form the AI.

Sounds like it has some great promise..hope it works out. Makes [post=8631439]this earlier post[/post] from this thread look rather insightful!

 

[Tenacious D]

well these other guys have mentioned TOCA series, Race 07, and even Viper Racing by Monster Games in 1998 as having VERY competitive A.I.

Not up on Dirt 2 and 3, though they do come highly recommended for other things. However, whoever praised TOCA, I'd lump into the other PC sims as having rather bland, polite, uninspiring A.I. There must be a way to gene splice the well mannered bots of PC sims, though with a mistake every once in a while, with the sometimes murderous tards in Forza. Just a few genes, maybe a pair of socks.

SIMBIN might be upping the ante in Raceroom, but in previous games, their bots would do a few dirt stupid things like smash their way through chicanes.

 

[ShiftingGears]

When the $$$$$$$ keep rolling in in spite of crappy AI, 10 year old cars, backwards car tuning, awful career mode, substandard sounds, and on and on and on, there is little incentive to improve anything. Kaz is sitting back and thinking, "Well the game keeps selling, I must be on the right track, people don't really care about sound, AI, having numerous race series fully represented, frame rate issues and everything else the critics talk about. I'm just going to keep working on my vision, it must be right because the game is selling"

The best thing that could ever happen to the GT series, is a Forza product that blows GT6 out of the water, and a PCars release on PS4 that sells well for a game on a new console and gives them much deeper development pockets for PCars2, and sets a brand new standard for physics, graphics, track variety, customization, career mode etc.

Indeed. I hope that if GT6 is a poor release it opens the door for other developers to really put a dent in PD's sales.

 

[sk8er913]

It takes the cloud data from your friends, like speed through corners, their line, and steering inputs, then uses the built in AI algorithms and mesh it all together to form the AI.

Why don't they use your own data set from license test, practice laps, and previous laps? O.o

Although if you crash, that would quite hilarious if they all crash similarly to you on the next lap on the same spot LOL

 

[Imari]

Why don't they use your own data set from license test, practice laps, and previous laps? O.o

Although if you crash, that would quite hilarious if they all crash similarly to you on the next lap on the same spot LOL

They use your data set to populate other people's AI. They could use your own for your own AI, but the idea is that you're racing other people in spirit, even if not in reality. If you think of it as another form of asynchronous multiplayer it makes sense.

 

[Spagetti69]

I hope those real data sent to the cloud servers are those of clean and skilled drivers, not kids or casuals who love to do dirty driving and make tons of mistakes or just sunday driving at the track instead of racing. It will be interesting how the cloud will differentiate them, one can post quick lap times driving dirty and cutting corners or uses all aids available which will blur the actual driver input.

I wpuld imagine invalidated laps would just be ignored, no need to to use that other than to prevent exploitation.

 

[dr_slump]

So if one guy is pretty bad at the game and his friends are all incredibly fast, would that mean he had to remove them all from his friendslist?

What a social game! 👍

 

[Crispy]

So if one guy is pretty bad at the game and his friends are all incredibly fast, would that mean he had to remove them all from his friendslist?

What a social game! 👍

No. If there are no friends available for a list of competitive Drivatars, then it will pull data from other drivers who are in the compatible range. Pretty funny how people here jump to conclusions about the competition to make it look bad...

Now please. Everyone INCLUDING me needs to not talk about Forza in GT6. We're heading off topic.

GT's AI isn't bad, they just aren't competitive. If they used normal steering inputs, braking lines, turn in points, then they would most certainly be able to provide a good racing experience. They already have good spacial awareness and act similar to real humans, just really slow...

 

[Imari]

GT's AI isn't bad, they just aren't competitive. If they used normal steering inputs, braking lines, turn in points, then they would most certainly be able to provide a good racing experience. They already have good spacial awareness and act similar to real humans, just really slow...

I'd agree with this. The way they behave is fine, they just need the speed turned up which should also eliminate most of the brake checking and so forth.

And by turning the speed up, I don't mean give them more power. The AI should be in equal machinery to the player. I mean make them brake later, carry more speed through the corner and get on the power earlier.

 

[Tenacious D]

I think it's sad when you can discuss every other racer but "that other game." But what do I know. In any case, I think this is a good idea in essence, as long as it's used properly. Collate data of say 100 people which might have slightly faster laps, maybe a second or so, to give you something to improve on. With a difficulty setting to mollify the performance somewhat.

For Gran Turismo, something like that might be cool, but what I'd rather see are some bots "taught" by some of the better drivers in the gaming world, PD such as Kaz himself, and pro race car drivers. They could lay down some good fast laps, not perfect, not blistering, but good. Then say, for Hardcore Mode, do some which are close to ideal but with a margin for victory. The rest can be a little slower.

There were a couple of people who mentioned wanting a race that was just about impossible to place first, or even getting a podium finish. This has to be a pretty small margin of racing game fans. Most gamers aren't up to that level of frustration, but something challenging which can be dialed back if it's too much for the individual, that would be perfect.

 

[Squach240]

I hope that if GT6 is a poor release it opens the door for other developers to really put a dent in PD's sales.

Just thought I'd throw it out there. I don't think PD or Kaz give a damn about sales. Of course there's the official business side to a product. But i'm pretty sure he doesn't give a damn. They're not Turn10/Microsoft where the numbers as a whole matter.

Besides to also throw it out there, every car enthusiast who owns a Playstation system buys Gran Turismo. Not only do we buy GT and most likely the digital content offered online because we support the franchise. But we also buy every other driving game too. There's going to be no such thing as "putting a dent" if we buy every racing game anyway.

 

[Samus]

Just thought I'd throw it out there. I don't think PD or Kaz give a damn about sales. Of course there's the official business side to a product. But i'm pretty sure he doesn't give a damn. They're not Turn10/Microsoft where the numbers as a whole matter.

Of course they care about sales. If the games stop selling then pretty soon they won't have the budget to make them.

Besides to also throw it out there, every car enthusiast who owns a Playstation system buys Gran Turismo. Not only do we buy GT and most likely the digital content offered online because we support the franchise. But we also buy every other driving game too. There's going to be no such thing as "putting a dent" if we buy every racing game anyway.

I suppose you have the data to back all that up?

 

[jflomario]

@Samus I gotta agree with squach. Constantly year after year, generation after generation, devs refuse to due away with design choices that are flaws and even though we know they're coming, we enthusiasists will buy the next car game. I know the corolla and supra are still going to be standards in gt6. Will I still buy it ? Yes most likely. Do I want to? Meh I got the money. Right ?

EDIT: If I had an xbox yes I'd have bought Forza. The AI on both games is a joke but I remember GT's ai was OP before where only the cream of the crop could beat the game.

 

[Samus]

You still can't just make a sweeping generalisation like that with no evidence.

 

[frivoloushobby]

I'd like to see PD require qualifying laps prior to the race and then use the players best lap time as a bench mark for the AI to pace with. Sure some players would sandbag their qualifying lap to enuse an easy win, but many would not

 

[dr_slump]

No. If there are no friends available for a list of competitive Drivatars, then it will pull data from other drivers who are in the compatible range. Pretty funny how people here jump to conclusions about the competition to make it look bad...

Question

 

[Imari]

The AI on both games is a joke but I remember GT's ai was OP before where only the cream of the crop could beat the game.

When was this? As far as I can remember, GT's AI has always been somewhere between mediocre and awful.

 

[PepeMickey]

When was this? As far as I can remember, GT's AI has always been somewhere between mediocre and awful.

I think he's talking about the Historic Cup, back in 2010 you had no choice but to take on those monsters in your little Countach or 512BB. It wasn't a case of the AI being too "fast" but more like a case of you not having a competitive car so you needed skills for that one.

 

[Imari]

I think he's talking about the Historic Cup, back in 2010 you had no choice but to take on those monsters in your little Countach or 512BB. It wasn't a case of the AI being too "fast" but more like a case of you not having a competitive car so you needed skills for that one.

Oh. If that's the case I remember that. That was a horrible race. But like you put it down to the machinery being underpowered rather than the AI being fast.

 

[axl54]

So have PD committed to improved AI for GT6 at launch, or have they vaguely hinted at some far off update like the sounds?

 

[sk8er913]

I'd like to see PD require qualifying laps prior to the race and then use the players best lap time as a bench mark for the AI to pace with. Sure some players would sandbag their qualifying lap to enuse an easy win, but many would not

It would be better if they learned off of your practice laps... as practice laps are more like race laps... Qualifying laps are normally a little faster, how much faster depends on the driver... could be .1 second and it could be 1 second... but qualifying laps are still usually faster. and if its based on the qualifying laps then that can create a problem with your qualifying position....

edit: unless PD imports the times of other racers from the event with a similar skill level to you that is downloaded by PD when they complete the event (if you are online) and just save the data to the HDD if as tmp files

edit edit: actually this is so obvious I would surprised they havent already tried this...

 

[Imari]

So have PD committed to improved AI for GT6 at launch, or have they vaguely hinted at some far off update like the sounds?

https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-6-engine-sounds/

They've made noises about it, but it's impossible to tell whether it's a legitimate improvement or a minor tweak. Or nothing at all, and a possible future update.

These days, even the things that come direct from PD/Sony/Kaz can change overnight.

 

[axl54]

Ah, Clear as mud We've not long to wait to find out anyways.

 

[sk8er913]

GT6 needs adaptive AI in career mode... I just got 2nd in the Sunday Cup at Autumn Ring, in GT5 in a car 100 PP lower than the other cars on the track, with all of the aids off, then you get 2,900 Cr to speed for finishing second 2nd, and 2,350 for 6th. That is ridiculous. you should only get like 1000 Cr. for first on the first race in a game, and if you get last you should get like 50 or 100... hopefully, GT6 will have AI that are competitive, but if you are in a car that is way below the limits like mine was, they should just take off, they shouldn't park their cars in the turns and pretend they have a kubblewagan. :|

 

[GTV0819]

I wonder if AIs in GT6 will honk their horns while racing in game.