Gran Turismo 6 AI discussion

[CoolColJ]

What happened on the missing bit of the video, did you punt the guy in 1st?

No, I skipped a lap to shorten the video, not much happened anyway

---

Anyway, it was an online race, so all human, Japanese drivers.
The slight lag causes the jerky movements of the other cars

Goes to show human drivers are not necessarily more "human" than the AI
AI tend to drive better than humans on the average IMO

You usually get one or two rabbits out the front, while the rest crash out more often than not, or just not on the pace....

The MX5 driver was the host and set the race parameters to exactly suit his tuned car, while I didn't have anything that fit, so I chose one of the GT5 default stock cars in the car selection
You can hear how quiet my car is, compared to the rest

 

[Cosbuster]

If you would like a real AI challenge, do yourself a favor, go get GT4, and
race for maximum A spec points.

What does that have to do with the AI ? A-spec points as far as I remember is the difference of your car's performance vs the competition. You just have a much weaker car than your opponents. You can do that in GT5 but it's hardly what I would call a race.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

What does that have to do with the AI ? A-spec points as far as I remember is the difference of your car's performance vs the competition. You just have a much weaker car than your opponents. You can do that in GT5 but it's hardly what I would call a race.

You're still racing against the AI.

And its a much more difficult challenge.

In GT4, except for the one make races, there are many cars to choose from,
that vary greatly competition wise at a given Aspec level.
Setups and lineups, are also much more important, to accomplish a win.
Blocking and pit strategy also play into some races.
The challenge to you is, "find a way to win".
To do so you will have to become a better driver in all aspects, and proficent in setups as well.

PIP_36 's post seem to bemoan the lack of challenge in racing against AI.
That can be cured by the advice prescribed.

Granted, the AI's MO is the same, so it does not change anything in that regaurd.
For that improvement we will have to wait for the next racing game releases and hope it does.

BTW I'm playing NascarTG inside line at the present, and the AI on Champion level is no slouch either.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I really enjoyed the hunt for A-Spec points, some of those races were very hard to win at 200 spec points, some were still easy due to a couple of vehicles which would give more spec points than they should, like the Dodge Ram in the Sunday cup. Some races were almost impossible.

I spent many hours on GT4 doing this and really missed it in GT5.

 

[mister dog]

If you would like a real AI challenge, do yourself a favor, go get GT4, and
race for maximum A spec points.

The one thing I can promise you, is you won't be complaining about how easy it is, very often.

What does that have to do with the AI ? A-spec points as far as I remember is the difference of your car's performance vs the competition. You just have a much weaker car than your opponents. You can do that in GT5 but it's hardly what I would call a race.

This what costbuster said. Just a crappy way to make a racing game more challenging... Really; if you still think the AI in GT4 or 5 gives you a run for your money, you must be driving like my granny...

 

[PepeMickey]

This what costbuster said. Just a crappy way to make a racing game more challenging... Really; if you still think the AI in GT4 or 5 gives you a run for your money, you must be driving like my granny...

That's pretty much any game so I don't know what exactly are you looking for, especially on PS3.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I really enjoyed the hunt for A-Spec points, some of those races were very hard to win at 200 spec points, some were still easy due to a couple of vehicles which would give more spec points than they should, like the Dodge Ram in the Sunday cup. Some races were almost impossible.

Yea, the challenge was so daunting, I could not resist it.
Plus when I started, it was still a mystery how many total points could be achieved.

I spent many hours on GT4 doing this and really missed it in GT5.

So did I.
Immensely so.

This what costbuster said. Just a crappy way to make a racing game more challenging... Really; if you still think the AI in GT4 or 5 gives you a run for your money, you must be driving like my granny...

The only real AI challenge is in GT4, racing for maximum Aspec points.
I gaurantee you will get a run for your money.
See if you can complete any of the following series of races and then comeback and tell me how "easy" they were.
I doubt, I will ever hear from you again.

Suzuki Concepts for 600 Aspec points

Roadster 4h Endurance for 200 Aspec points

1000 miles. for 800 Aspec points

Hyundai Sports Festival for 880 Aspec points

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

I wish they'd bring back the AI from GT3, and the world tracks from GT4.

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

Bump

 

[PIP_36]

If you would like a real AI challenge, do yourself a favor, go get GT4, and
race for maximum A spec points.

The one thing I can promise you, is you won't be complaining about how easy it is, very often.

It will play on the PS3, but it plays smoother on the PS2 with a wired controller IMO.

Its by far the toughest challenge in any racing game I've ever played.

Hi SuperCobraJet

As well as yourself, a few people have comented about the AI in GT4, I wish I could give it a go but my PS3 slim won't play it and I don't have a PS2.

It would be interesting to compare the two, especially as you say it's the toughest that you have played...

I think the best compromise that can be made for GT6, is to have different levels of 'toughness' for the AI, just like all other racing games have. Although this may not make the AI good racers, it would at least just change how fast they drive around the track...not ideal but still something!

 

[PIP_36]

If so I have a big middle finger get-out clause. I'm a sim racing user not a bad piggies user.
GTR2 and race them on 120%.
Or, a copy of Grand Prix 4.

LOL, yep, flipping the bird as you overtake the piggies is a must!

GP4 and GTR2 are only on PC as far as I know, but I am seriously considering getting a gaming PC mainly because I want to start iRacing so bad!

 

[Cosbuster]

It would be interesting to compare the two, especially as you say it's the toughest that you have played...

It's not, if anything, the AI in GT4 is worse. Imagine racing against 550pp cars with a 350pp car, that's what he's essentially talking about as "challenge". It's just that in GT4 you actually earned points for gimping yourself.

 

[Rotorist]

I resume this topic in one sentence:

RACE 07 AI. *period*

Copy and paste PD...copy and paste. Same flag regulations and stuff as in that game and you have a winner.

I agree. It 'd give GT6 A-spec very challenging races. And I need rules, flags, penalties, damage repair on pay.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Hi SuperCobraJet

As well as yourself, a few people have comented about the AI in GT4, I wish I could give it a go but my PS3 slim won't play it and I don't have a PS2.

Unfortunate circumstance to say the least.
But for the current cost of a PS2 and GT4, it would be worth the minimal investment.

It would be interesting to compare the two, especially as you say it's the toughest that you have played..

It varies race to race, from somewhat easy, depending on the car used, to seemingly impossible.

I think the best compromise that can be made for GT6, is to have different levels of 'toughness' for the AI, just like all other racing games have. Although this may not make the AI good racers, it would at least just change how fast they drive around the track...not ideal but still something!

That would be one approach for more competitive AI.

However essentially, there is little if any difference in a leveled AI, or as in GT4, handicapping your car to race against the same AI.
Six, or one half dozen.

It's not, if anything, the AI in GT4 is worse. Imagine racing against 550pp cars with a 350pp car, that's what he's essentially talking about as "challenge". It's just that in GT4 you actually earned points for gimping yourself.

If the AI is not competitive enough for you, then that is certainly one way to make it more competitive.

You may want to try the same races, that were recommended in my reply to mister dog, assuming of course you like a difficult challenge.
(Post 187)

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

The Ai in GT5 is better than the AI was in GT4. The difference the A-Spec points made was giving you an incentive to try with a weak car and that made it very hard on many of the races. There was also one make races where your car choice was limited and some of those were challenging. One that comes to mind was the Speedster challenge. You could actually modify the Speedster quite a lot and still have a tough race on your hands.

I like the way they did the recent Seasonal races in GT5 where they pay more if you use a weaker car. This is kinda like the A-Spec points but with a cash and xp reward rather than A-Spec points. I would like to see this carried over into all the GT Life races in GT6

 

[ShiftingGears]

It's not, if anything, the AI in GT4 is worse. Imagine racing against 550pp cars with a 350pp car, that's what he's essentially talking about as "challenge". It's just that in GT4 you actually earned points for gimping yourself.

Bingo. I'm sure if I wanted an "AI challenge" like that I could attempt to drive the Sunday Cup in reverse. But that still wouldn't make the AI not utterly lacklustre, so it's a moot point.

 

[mister dog]

It's not, if anything, the AI in GT4 is worse. Imagine racing against 550pp cars with a 350pp car, that's what he's essentially talking about as "challenge". It's just that in GT4 you actually earned points for gimping yourself.

If the AI is not competitive enough for you, then that is certainly one way to make it more competitive.

You may want to try the same races, that were recommended in my reply to mister dog, assuming of course you like a difficult challenge.
(Post 187)

So is running a marathon with one leg, racing a blind horse, or hunting with a bow and arrow when everyone has guns , you shouldn't have to handicap yourself in order to have a challenge with your competition, the challenge should be there by itself: as in good AI that is fast, makes it difficult for you to pass them, and tries to retake your position after you do manage to overtake... but those bots in GT are just horribly slow, stand still in the midst of corners and in the case of GT5; step off the gas as soon as you pass them.

In short GT's AI is of the worst of all racing games you can buy out there...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

So is running a marathon with one leg, racing a blind horse, or hunting with a bow and arrow when everyone has guns , you shouldn't have to handicap yourself in order to have a challenge with your competition, the challenge should be there by itself: as in good AI that is fast, makes it difficult for you to pass them, and tries to retake your position after you do manage to overtake... but those bots in GT are just horribly slow, stand still in the midst of corners and in the case of GT5; step off the gas as soon as you pass them.

While the races listed are very difficult, they can be done.
At any rate, I see your point.

In short GT's AI is of the worst of all racing games you can buy out there...

I'm not sure if it's the worst, but I can certainly agree, they could and should be a lot better, particularly in the upcoming GT6.
Hopefully, they will be.

 

[Tenacious D]

Wait, here's the problem. The slider need to improve AI pace only, not giving them faster cars. I would race Super GT's against other Super GT's not against F1's! It's like the developers are cheating, not giving faster AI just giving them faster cars. That's plain wrong.

I like the option, personally, but this is a YMMV thing.

Shift 2 is the best "game" out of the three but damn controls.

Well... in your opinion. Shift was a good idea that suffered EA-itis. Maybe Project CARS will be their answer, but we'll have to wait for release to know.

Still, with me growing "comfy" with Forza 4, more or less, maybe I should give Shift 2 another chance as well...

I've never, ever enjoyed an off line 'race' in GT5 (GT5p & GT5 are the only games I've played in the series) and I've haven't been able to get into or stay in an online lobby for months.

Prior to me jumping back in to Forza for a while, I've been racing almost exclusively in GT5 Arcade Mode, where there are no goodies. No XP, credits or prize cars, just a race, and the racing has been a lot of fun. Yes, even with bots that slam on their brakes around turns. I haven't been impressed much with any racing games' bots over any other. How is it any worse than the horror of being caught in a mob in in GTR as they smash their way through a chicane, and crush my car along with them?

we all hope for an improvement in GT6, but all any of us can do is wait and see, the question is will you still buy it and play it if there is not?

Hells yeah! Seriously, the only other game like it out there is Forza, and I'm just not all that comfortable with the driving model in Forza, so I'm not exactly hot to spend the $800-plus required to jump in to the Leashbox for just one racing game I might not like any better than the one I have now with slightly better graphics.

Like you, I've played a plethora of racing games, but unlike you, I find the PC sim world to be rather dry, lifeless and clinical. It feels like all the cars are loaners, I rarely like any of the liveries, and until now, the graphics were PS2 level in HD. Frankly, I find that the sounds are only marginally better and the bots plain and polite. iRenting sounds intriguing, but as I imply with my pet name for it, I'm not that rich and can't justify the price to race against other humans, some of who make an online career out of it and always leave me in their virtual dust. And I can only take so much F1 racing before I get a headache and the jitters.

And unlike you, I've played Gran Turismo from the beginning, and it has spoiled me with the wealth of cars and tracks, and the essence of the series which to me oozes panache and spirit. To me, and after all, we buy games for our own pleasure. I love tinkering with everything from the latest supercars to what I refer to as dinkmobiles, and seeing how they fare against similarly classed cars. Only two game series really offer that, and one I have issues with.

 

[RaceReady]

The AI is lacking in 5 for sure. I'm just a beginner in the game but come on, even I can tell the AI is "weak". Wheres the challenge at that a beginner needs to get better? You cannot improve if you don't have the competition to make you improve. True? I own all the GT games and I like how difficult the AI in GT1 and 2 were. They made you really push to gain position and to win. Thats what we need. And what about qualifying? That made GT1 and GT2 better. It gave you a sense of accomplishment when you place at a higher place because you earned it. They should learn from that.

 

[NCRthree]

AI behavior would seem to be the trickiest thing to program. Even in Arcade with the aggression on 10, the annoying brake check on Exit behavior can be activated by close following. Obviously that's a proximity issue. Wish that could be programmed out right now, it's horrible.

The speed issue would seem to be easier with a sliding scale AI speed setting. As it is now, it's one size fits all-that's downright primitive for a AAA title.

At least we've seen Kaz acknowledge it being a concern that's being addressed.

 

[sems4arsenal]

The AI is lacking in 5 for sure. I'm just a beginner in the game but come on, even I can tell the AI is "weak". Wheres the challenge at that a beginner needs to get better? You cannot improve if you don't have the competition to make you improve. True? I own all the GT games and I like how difficult the AI in GT1 and 2 were. They made you really push to gain position and to win. Thats what we need. And what about qualifying? That made GT1 and GT2 better. It gave you a sense of accomplishment when you place at a higher place because you earned it. They should learn from that.

You can't have qualifying with slow A.I .

 

[Morgoth_666]

You can't have qualifying with slow A.I .

Why not? Slow AI drivers can't drive around the track in any session except a race because they'll get too tired and drive even worse in the race? Or is it something in their contracts?

 

[ASH32]

Why not? Slow AI drivers can't drive around the track in any session except a race because they'll get too tired and drive even worse in the race? Or is it something in their contracts?

You'll end up qualifying 1st every race and that'll be even worse than it is now.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Still, with me growing "comfy" with Forza 4, more or less, maybe I should give Shift 2 another chance as well...

I tried Shift 2 on the Xbox 360 due to some on my friends saying it was so good but I really wish I could get that time back. The game was horrible. I have never played a game with such a bad feel as that one. Using the Fanatec wheel on the 360 words can't describe how bad it was. The FFB was strong when you were stopped or barely moving, strong when off road, non existent when on the track at speed. I found it hard to even drive in a straight line with the settings I would use for Forza or GT. Could not feel the center position on the wheel and constantly wandering right and left. Normally I am pretty good on Nurburgring but when I tried it on Shift2 the first time I think I was off track about 70 times on one lap .

Eventually I was able to adjust settings on the wheel to where the game was at least drivable and was able to run a clean lap around the ring but I did not like it at all. I don't know what those guys were smoking but apparently it produced an altered state or something.

I also was not impressed with the graphics after having played GT5 and Forza 3 Shift 2 at least the 360 version left a bit to be desired.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Why not? Slow AI drivers can't drive around the track in any session except a race because they'll get too tired and drive even worse in the race? Or is it something in their contracts?

You'll end up qualifying 1st every race and that'll be even worse than it is now.

Exactly 👍 ,It will in essence be a Time trial with cars behind you .

 

[Morgoth_666]

You'll end up qualifying 1st every race and that'll be even worse than it is now.

Exactly 👍 ,It will in essence be a Time trial with cars behind you .

I suppose I was asking for that since I knew that was the point anyway. So again: no, difficulty does not have anything to do with proper game modes just like it has nothing to do with intelligent AI and just like it has nothing to do with proper physics or damage or rules.

You want the game to be hard? Easy, crank up the rubber-banding, give the AI cars a 200% mass boost that only affects collisions and doesn't impair their handling or speed, don't bother to program any player-avoidance into them so they constantly ram and spin the player, and then give them a 10% boost to top speed and a 20% boost to tire grip versus the player driving in the same car. That will make it harder but not necessarily any more pleasant, and some players will still manage to be way too fast.

If qualifying means you'll always start up front, don't complete a lap and then you'll start from the back. Or use a slower car or worse tires to make qualifying a fair fight. Or turn up the game's difficulty setting a bit... oh wait, scratch that one. This is has it has been for a long time in Gran Turismo, just as in any other game(except the difficulty thing). Qualifying or "practice" as it was once called in GT was a good opportunity to learn how fast the AI would go so that you could set your own pace to provide a good challenge. Of course, they tended to run a second or so faster in the race(because PD) but after a while you got used to adjusting for that. You shouldn't have to do that(at least not as much) but that's the way PD does things.

The AI needs to be much faster in GT, I'm in no way arguing against that. But that poses a problem for slower drivers, which means we need to be able to adjust the difficulty, but that's apparently an issue for PD so we have to adjust our own pace to do so. The AI also needs to be much smarter and more agressive, but that is a completely different issue from their pace despite the fact that there is some carry-over effect. Things like practice and qualifying and class points and customizable races and championships and proper penalties and flags and race-start(and finish) procedures and the lineup of cars in a race are all likewise completely separate issues.

The GT series was better with qualifying as an option than it is without it. It has also always been glorified time-trials(but always more dynamic than true time-trial "racing" games like ridge racer where no car ever deviated from a set pace until it was near you). Personally, I prefer not always starting in the exact same position every time, and I like not having to run a race before finding out if my car is even capable of winning(or losing). The AI-parking patch ruined the racing in GT5 far more than qualifying would have.

 

[mister dog]

I'm a big fan for the return of qualifying; comon.. how can it be there are so many racing games nowadays that ditch the whole concept if it is true to every form of real life racing...

The AI is indeed slow, but i remember that they do have alternations in the speed they lap during the races, i played many endurance races in previous GT installments and you notice there was a pattern where they would either lap slow (business as usual), but also mixed it with good paced laps, where you could be faster than them only if you did your best.

It's not exactly rocket science to program that the bots do their best laps possible for a qualifying session and still make you work for pole position.

 

[PepeMickey]

You can't have qualifying with slow A.I .

You can, look at what Codies did, the registered lap times aren't real, you can see the AI car going slower than you but still registering faster lap times. It's an ilusion...

 

[Tenacious D]

I tried Shift 2 on the Xbox 360 due to some on my friends saying it was so good but I really wish I could get that time back.

Thanks for the warning. I know I tried Shift, Shift 2 and Grid, didn't like any of them and am a little foggy on which issues went with which games. But I do remember that the steering was pretty carp-tastic with all three, and assigning controls on at least one was a nightmare. I did hear very good things about Dirt 3 and thought I might give it a whirl sometime.

I thought I'd point out that, for those wanting a bot difficulty setting, grousing at those suggesting handicapped cars baffles me, because isn't really any different - yes I'm a little slow.

It reminds me of this ladyfriend who wanted to roleplay with me after I'd dropped out of the muck thing. Well, the muck she used crashed one day and she bemoaned it endlessly. I told her that we could just do the same thing in chat, but she didn't care for that idea. Even though it was essentially the same thing. You can set up the screen settings to look exactly the same, but because it wasn't "the muck," she didn't want to even bother RPing. Of course, that meant more time for Gran Turismo...

Just as she is with her muck app, I think people have too much emotional attachment to things being a certain way. Handicapping cars, handicapping bots... really, what's the difference?