Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[extreme car]

As you have stated, if only some cars suffer, then could it be that the underlying physics platform isn't the real issue? Perhaps it's the modeling of individual cars? Somehow it's not the poor physics chap/team causing havoc, but the various modelers that PD has employed to create 400+ cars?

I'm no physics expert, but if you ask my opinion, they got their base physics for RWD production car mostly correct until you reach the mid point of a corner and start applying throttle, and to me the mid point to exit is where RWD car suppose to shine compared to their AWD and FF counterpart.

Maybe GT7 physics are solid, but it's the stock modeling of each car that is the problem? Coming from a different angle. If tuning solves many of the issues -- then is it still the physics platform, or again, how PD has chosen to model the stock settings?

Tuning actually solved the snap oversteer on RWD cars, all of my tuned RWD cars can keep up with most AWD and FF cars in GT7 now.

I grant you that some cars are bit ragged, mostly FRs, but there are some really planted examples -- the AWDs...and some would argue that the physics are broken from the opposite reason -- they have too much grip.

I've yet to see people complaining AWD and FF cars being broken in GT7. I've limited seat time with those two drivetrain in GT7 because RWD is the superior drivetrain IMO .

As I drive more cars, I'm leaning more and more towards the modeling side...and more importantly, the issue for me is the FFB...it needs to be more communicative to get the most out of current physics -- this is the weak link...subsequently, I think this is why many DD wheel users find the experience positive.

I can live with a slightly crap FFB, but I can't stand it when I have to guess whether my car is going to snap on throttle application at corner exit or not.

I think the big problems are on high speed corners , expeccially with Powerful car.
On slow corners, with low Power cars the issue isn't that bad.. It happens in the video i posted. Maybe irl you need a bit more throttle, but it is fine... Spin out sudden at high speed,or drift like you did is the real physics problem on the game.

Problems are with all RWD production cars be it powerfull or low powered, they're losing their rear traction way too easily and unpredictably on throttle application.

 

[Firestone]

My point is, PD have to fix the current RWD production car physics WHERE THEY ARE NEEDED, I don't want them to dumb down the physics and make monster cars with high hp and twitchy back end that wants to kill you like Mclaren F1, Ferrari Enzo, TVR tuscan, Toyota MR2 easy to drive, what I want is the enthusiast level cars to be a lot more predictable and more planted to drive just like their real life counterpart ie. GT3 porsches, RX8, GR86, GT86, 350Z, 370Z.

I'd like to ask what real world car experiences do you have? People are complaining about certain cars. I have no issues with the GT86 at all, especially with the SH. Predictable and really easy to drive as I'm familiar with. The 350Z feels like a pig as it should also.

they're not, I'm not a time attacker and I got 1.07.1xx on SH tyre. I might need to do some more laps in the CS tyre to get the 1.08.1xx, but it's not impossible, I've been doing consistent 1.08.6xx-7xx with CS tyre.

It's not impossible to squeeze out good times on the CS. They are something similar to the standard Pilot Sport 4. Was running tests with them at Streets of Willow with the Evo and exiting corners at full acceleration, they scrub and understeer hard. The PS4S doesn't do this and feels similar to the SH when I exit under acceleration. I'm confident SH are modeled from the PS4S. CS simply doesn't have the grip.
From what I gather
CS: PS4
SH: PS4S
SM: Cup 2
SS: Cup 2R


He mentions the PS4 not communicating with him well and is a bit unpredictable. Sounds very similar to the CS.
PS4S communicates well and is predictable, but can still get a bit slidey.

well, he held most of his drift with better lines than you did. he broke traction using 5th gear btw not rowing gears from 3rd to 5th.

It's not impossible to break traction in 5th gear. He didn't drift, he slid wide.

You are such a fanboy of Gt7!
I give up discussing this more with you.
Go back and do 5th gear slides with the stock Gr86,.
I am starting the game again when they fix the broken rwd physics so it representing real life.

Are you saying it shouldn't be possible to break traction at high speeds and recover? You didn't drift, you slid wide.
Why don't you validate your test with other low powered cars? Post videos of the Miata or something. Or even the older GT86. The GR86 is a car you can start a drift by simply turning the wheel and throttle irl, so it's probably not the best example to suit your claims.

Bless my ASD, I've gone back and checked, and nope.

I've in an unsolicited manner mentioned two titles, AC in a complementary manner to GT7, with under the limit tyre grip being similar to AC, and AMS2 but solely in regard to FFB (I'm sure if you look really hard you might find another).

In the vast majority of cases (90%+), I was addressing whataboutery and goddidit logical fallacies, and I've also repeatedly (more than any other member) and consistently stated that the only true benchmark should be reality.

There was a whole argument earlier this month about understeer and oversteer and on multiple occasions AC was given as an example of what cars should do in the case of understeer vs oversteer. The discussion on AC only started because you listed a few high profile sims that you had on a hierarchy as baselines on what should be expected from a sim, or at least implied. The topic of the FRS and power oversteer came up. This was mid March. So naturally I loaded up AC to run tests because over the years I was repeatedly told from sim players that this is the best reference point for a sim to real life. Then it turned into a larger discussion about what should and shouldn't happen comparing and contrasting both games.

This leaves us option number 2, confirmation bias.

Having confidence is completely different than having a bias. I mean, 2 random cars out of 400 I can feels confident in. Regarding sampling rate, I'd have to be really lucky since there are so many calling the physics trash in this thread. The majority cars more than likely match 80-90% of what they should do. 80-90% is more than enough to translate game knowledge to real world application. However, so many are calling out the game as if it isn't valid.

 

[extreme car]

I'd like to ask what real world car experiences do you have? People are complaining about certain cars. I have no issues with the GT86 at all, especially with the SH. Predictable and really easy to drive as I'm familiar with. The 350Z feels like a pig as it should also.

I've never done a track day experience, but I've done spirited driving on quite a few performance cars like the GT86, 350Z (VQ35HR ver.), R34 GT-T, Mk.7 Golf R just to name a few. and I can assure you the GT86 doesn't break it's rear traction easily on 2nd gear @ 3000 - 4000 rpm unless you really upset the car's balance on corner entry ie, flicking, clutch kick.

It's not impossible to squeeze out good times on the CS. They are something similar to the standard Pilot Sport 4. Was running tests with them at Streets of Willow with the Evo and exiting corners at full acceleration, they scrub and understeer hard. The PS4S doesn't do this and feels similar to the SH when I exit under acceleration. I'm confident SH are modeled from the PS4S. CS simply doesn't have the grip.
From what I gather
CS: PS4
SH: PS4S
SM: Cup 2
SS: Cup 2R

The GR86 OEM tyre choice is PS4 not PS4S

which begs the question how did @tedaxe power slide that GR86 in 5th gear with a higher grade tyre than the OEM tyre.

It's not impossible to break traction in 5th gear. He didn't drift, he slid wide.

yeah when you have ZR1 C6 LS9 level of torque you can, not from a puny 2.4L flat 4 at low revs. I just posted a video where I did 6th gear @3000RPM drift.

Are you saying it shouldn't be possible to break traction at high speeds and recover? You didn't drift, you slid wide.
Why don't you validate your test with other low powered cars? Post videos of the Miata or something. Or even the older GT86. The GR86 is a car you can start a drift by simply turning the wheel and throttle irl, so it's probably not the best example to suit your claims.

I guess the techincal term is power slide, still a drift in my book. Want me to post the torqueless RX-8 drift using 5th gear?

 

[kilesa4568]

However, so many are calling out the game as if it isn't valid.

How can you ignore so many people saying the same thing?

I like the look of the game but I wouldn't touch these physics with a bargepole. All because the cars are unpredictable on the limit and will often defy logic at lower speeds. Bending reality like that can really mess with the head of someone who's been driving a long time and expects things to react in a uniform way.

Old GT's parodied real life in an enjoyable way and I enjoyed them but 7 feels over complicated when it shouldn't be. Not when it's compared to real life where everything mechanical makes sense, whatever speed you're doing.

 

[FOG-Smokebeer]

We need Brian Cox and Neil Degrasse Tyson to come sort these fizzhicks out ASAP

 

[Scaff]

There was a whole argument earlier this month about understeer and oversteer and on multiple occasions AC was given as an example of what cars should do in the case of understeer vs oversteer. The discussion on AC only started because you listed a few high profile sims that you had on a hierarchy as baselines on what should be expected from a sim, or at least implied. The topic of the FRS and power oversteer came up. This was mid March. So naturally I loaded up AC to run tests because over the years I was repeatedly told from sim players that this is the best reference point for a sim to real life. Then it turned into a larger discussion about what should and shouldn't happen comparing and contrasting both games.

You mean when I said this...

I'm coming from AMS, AMS2, RF2, AC. ACC, and 25 years in the motor industry, why am I getting caught off guard?

...the one in which I clearly list reality? The same post in which I went into this much detail on the actual physics involved...

"You need to factor in both the driven gear (1st in this case), the final drive, and the wheel itself. which for a GT86 would be as follows:

Assuming Peak Torque. 205Nm * 3.63 (1st) * 3.43 (Final) = 2,552 and then divide that by 2 for the single wheel, which would be 1,276 Nm

You then multiply that by the wheel radius (which means you have to work that out as well), which for a GT86 is 0.312m so 1,276 Nm * 0.312m = 398 Nm

However, that's not the end of it, as you also then need to know the vertical load at each corner to see how much grip it has to overcome.

A GT86 weighs 1,258kgs and has a static weight distribution of 53:47, and if we assume a tyre/surface mU value of 1.0 and that you getting to 50:50 distribution under acceleration (because I really can't be doing that math that early), it's 624kgs at the rear, between two tyres, that's 312kgs of load to overcome on each corner.

At 398 Nm, they are generating at peak torque, in first gear, enough force to overwhelm the tyre, from static they will smoke the tyre as it overcomes rolling resistance, however, the GT86 is also a peaky little bugger and that peak torque is generated right at the top of the rev range and only literally as you are above to change up.

Also worth noting is that while the loading will remain the same as you change gear, the wheel torque will reduce.

2nd: 240 NM

So from 2nd gear onwards, it can only generate enough force to overwhelm the tyre if it's partially unloaded, and that will reduce for each and every gear."

...you know, reality again?

Would that be the post in question?

As that's not an example of 'whataboutery' or 'goddidit', which is what I was specifically referring to. If a discussion is about 'car X oversteering in condition Y' and its claimed to be unrealistic and the defence a person uses is 'yeah but in AC car Z does A when it understeers' that's 'whataboutery' and if you then believe that proves the oversteer from the original point is now accurate, it's 'goddidit'. Both are logical fallacies, and as such if you or any other member has an issue with how any other sim drives when it unrelated to the discussion at hand, then you need to take it to the sim in questions sub-forum. Oh, and still expect reality to get cited as the final arbiter.

Having confidence is completely different than having a bias.

No, it's really not.

I mean, 2 random cars out of 400 I can feels confident in. Regarding sampling rate, I'd have to be really lucky since there are so many calling the physics trash in this thread. The majority cars more than likely match 80-90% of what they should do. 80-90% is more than enough to translate game knowledge to real world application. However, so many are calling out the game as if it isn't valid.

And yet those with equal or more experience you dismiss out of hand.

 

[MarrGuitar]

So naturally I loaded up AC to run tests because over the years I was repeatedly told from sim players that this is the best reference point for a sim to real life.

Have you actually tried AC, (or even something like ACC or AMS2) with a racing wheel? Because to me the difference between the physics and force feedback of those sims is night and day compared with GT7, especially when driving on the limit. The FFB on GT7 feels numb compared with those sims and driving on the limit is not intuitive at all. If you’ve tried any those sims and learned how to be fast on them (by driving on the limit) then you would know the difference and probably wouldn’t be defending GT7 so hard.



@Td04 You’ve been sharing clips of amateurs losing control of their cars. Now look at this clip. It’s Ayrton Senna. Need I say more? You can clearly see how he drives that NSX on the limit, you can see him feeling for the limit of grip and when he goes over it he keeps control of the car and he carries on going fast. Because, unlike in GT7, tyres do not suddenly turn into a block of ice once you start sliding a bit. When he loses the back end a bit in this video, you’d be spinning off with no chance of recovery on GT7. Even racing cars with all their downforce and grip are driven like this in order to be competitive, watch the way this driver is constantly catching the car whilst they push cornering speeds to the limit of grip:



On GT7, you have to AVOID driving like that in order to be competitive. That’s the difference.

On AC, you can drive on the limit or slightly beyond and control the car with steering/throttle modulation in a very similar way to that example video. And you can feel what the tyres are doing in the FFB, WAY more than you can in GT7. That’s why people are using sims like AC as the benchmark, because it is a lot closer to real life.

Even if you’ve never driven a car like that in real life, just by watching videos of real racing drivers onboards, you can see and understand what they’re doing. You simply cannot drive like that in GT7 with a lot of the cars because the physics just don’t allow it.

 

[Skython]

Step 1: One person says they're having an excessively hard time adjusting to a game's physics despite previous experience in various forms
Step 2: A whole lot of other people from all sorts of skill levels agree that there is a problem with the physics
Step 3: A couple of people say there is not a problem
Step 4: Spend the next 2 months trying to explain to those people why there is a problem to no avail

In a rear engined car you should be able to feel the progressive loss of grip on corner entry due to lift off oversteer and then neutralise it with moderate throttle putting the weight back down on the rear wheels to exit, the classic Porsche trait, AC replicates this very well. In GT7 there is not much of a progressive loss of grip so you either aren't going fast or you find yourself too far over the edge of grip in a moment's notice with no warning from the game visually or through FFB... And yet you only went into the turn a tiny bit faster than you did last lap.

A sim can go one of two ways (on a steering wheel), they can try and replicate the exact feeling of a steering wheel of a real car, or they can input different sensations in order to replicate a "seat of the pants" feel. Seems like GT7 does neither of these, it sort of feels like a lateral G-force meter sometimes (what with that weird stretching rubber band feeling you get on some turns) while maybe leaning towards the "exact feeling" feel.

 

[bubble_goose]

Watched Summit playing iRacing and this sort of recovery is pretty easy in GT-sport but nearly impossible in GT7

 

[graesand]

Step 1: One person says they're having an excessively hard time adjusting to a game's physics despite previous experience in various forms
Step 2: A whole lot of other people from all sorts of skill levels agree that there is a problem with the physics
Step 3: A couple of people say there is not a problem
Step 4: Spend the next 2 months trying to explain to those people why there is a problem to no avail

In a rear engined car you should be able to feel the progressive loss of grip on corner entry due to lift off oversteer and then neutralise it with moderate throttle putting the weight back down on the rear wheels to exit, the classic Porsche trait, AC replicates this very well. In GT7 there is not much of a progressive loss of grip so you either aren't going fast or you find yourself too far over the edge of grip in a moment's notice with no warning from the game visually or through FFB... And yet you only went into the turn a tiny bit faster than you did last lap.

A sim can go one of two ways (on a steering wheel), they can try and replicate the exact feeling of a steering wheel of a real car, or they can input different sensations in order to replicate a "seat of the pants" feel. Seems like GT7 does neither of these, it sort of feels like a lateral G-force meter sometimes (what with that weird stretching rubber band feeling you get on some turns) while maybe leaning towards the "exact feeling" feel.

Yeah, and thats how this thread became 120+ pages long... Ugh... Im starting to wonder if we have payed trolls in here...

 

[Johnnn]

I understand both sides but still I am not sure what is going on. For instance, stock X-bow with SS is amazing experience. I can understeer, oversteer, 4wheel slide, whatever I want. It's so good to drive. After it physics is probably right. But with other cars it's not that easy.

 

[llNovall]

Have you actually tried AC, (or even something like ACC or AMS2) with a racing wheel? Because to me the difference between the physics and force feedback of those sims is night and day compared with GT7, especially when driving on the limit. The FFB on GT7 feels numb compared with those sims and driving on the limit is not intuitive at all. If you’ve tried any those sims and learned how to be fast on them (by driving on the limit) then you would know the difference and probably wouldn’t be defending GT7 so hard.



@Td04 You’ve been sharing clips of amateurs losing control of their cars. Now look at this clip. It’s Ayrton Senna. Need I say more? You can clearly see how he drives that NSX on the limit, you can see him feeling for the limit of grip and when he goes over it he keeps control of the car and he carries on going fast. Because, unlike in GT7, tyres do not suddenly turn into a block of ice once you start sliding a bit. When he loses the back end a bit in this video, you’d be spinning off with no chance of recovery on GT7. Even racing cars with all their downforce and grip are driven like this in order to be competitive, watch the way this driver is constantly catching the car whilst they push cornering speeds to the limit of grip:



On GT7, you have to AVOID driving like that in order to be competitive. That’s the difference.

On AC, you can drive on the limit or slightly beyond and control the car with steering/throttle modulation in a very similar way to that example video. And you can feel what the tyres are doing in the FFB, WAY more than you can in GT7. That’s why people are using sims like AC as the benchmark, because it is a lot closer to real life.

Even if you’ve never driven a car like that in real life, just by watching videos of real racing drivers onboards, you can see and understand what they’re doing. You simply cannot drive like that in GT7 with a lot of the cars because the physics just don’t allow it.

Two things stand out for me in both of these videos:
1.) Drivers are both full or nearly full off the throttle into and nearly up to the apex of the corners, mostly working the brakes and steering.
2.) Both have very controlled and gradual throttle application to maintain control on mid corner and corner exit. Even the Nordschlief clip in the race car shows how disciplined a driver must be on the throttle.

I went on YouTube and pulled a random clip compilation. This car appears to be an S2000, noted as running Hankook TD's for some clips or BFG R1's for others...both being DOT Comp tires. Driver even states that most offs and spins were a result of his poor driving. Note the couple of on-throttle spins thru and exiting corners.
Example of BFG R1
I'll drop this with no further comments regarding.

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Same car, better day at Track, with much more controlled throttle and steering inputs.

 

[R3V]

I've yet to see people complaining AWD and FF cars being broken in GT7. I've limited seat time with those two drivetrain in GT7 because RWD is the superior drivetrain IMO .

Really? Can I be the first, then? R34 snaps like a mother****er. It goes from FWD understeer to snapping like a RWD in the game.

 

[JDMKING13]

Have you actually tried AC, (or even something like ACC or AMS2) with a racing wheel? Because to me the difference between the physics and force feedback of those sims is night and day compared with GT7, especially when driving on the limit. The FFB on GT7 feels numb compared with those sims and driving on the limit is not intuitive at all. If you’ve tried any those sims and learned how to be fast on them (by driving on the limit) then you would know the difference and probably wouldn’t be defending GT7 so hard.



@Td04 You’ve been sharing clips of amateurs losing control of their cars. Now look at this clip. It’s Ayrton Senna. Need I say more? You can clearly see how he drives that NSX on the limit, you can see him feeling for the limit of grip and when he goes over it he keeps control of the car and he carries on going fast. Because, unlike in GT7, tyres do not suddenly turn into a block of ice once you start sliding a bit. When he loses the back end a bit in this video, you’d be spinning off with no chance of recovery on GT7. Even racing cars with all their downforce and grip are driven like this in order to be competitive, watch the way this driver is constantly catching the car whilst they push cornering speeds to the limit of grip:



On GT7, you have to AVOID driving like that in order to be competitive. That’s the difference.

On AC, you can drive on the limit or slightly beyond and control the car with steering/throttle modulation in a very similar way to that example video. And you can feel what the tyres are doing in the FFB, WAY more than you can in GT7. That’s why people are using sims like AC as the benchmark, because it is a lot closer to real life.

Even if you’ve never driven a car like that in real life, just by watching videos of real racing drivers onboards, you can see and understand what they’re doing. You simply cannot drive like that in GT7 with a lot of the cars because the physics just don’t allow it.

What system you have for ACC/AC

 

[sejtur]

OMG, he drives a car with a manual gearbox, and steers with both hands? And doesn't annoyingly blip the throttle when upshifting? What kind of magic is this? Like it's another universe from GT7.

 

[Johnnn]

If you want more gradual grip fall off overall, I would agree.

Really? Can I be the first, then? R34 snaps like a mother****er. It goes from FWD understeer to snapping like a RWD in the game.

LOL, that's exactly my experience with R32. It's completely useless. Understeers so much until it snap oversteers.

 

[ruggermole]

my only real issue with the "snap oversteer" is how quick the animation plays out. If I make the same type of mistake (almost always in gr4 or gr3 cars) in iracing it's a gradual sliding out. No doubt I deserve to slide out due to pushing the car too hard ut the animation feels rushed and wonky. The force feedback of the game also adds to the feeling of you just "losing it". Like there's a certain feeling of knowing that you are going to lose it but there's nothing you can do about it but you fight til the end that doesn't happen in this game. So I think GT7 usually gets you a similar result to other sims (at least with racing cars) it just feels/looks awkward in getting there.

The muscle cars are giving me so much trouble on the other hand. IDK if it's a physics thing, a wheel thing, or just a muscle car thing. Staring at the red dot to try to make it move the right amount and yet I either get no turning or instead slide.

 

[kilesa4568]

I understand both sides but still I am not sure what is going on. For instance, stock X-bow with SS is amazing experience. I can understeer, oversteer, 4wheel slide, whatever I want. It's so good to drive. After it physics is probably right. But with other cars it's not that easy.

The physics has cars reacting in an eccentric way so there's always a slim chance of it having a positive effect on a few of the more eccentric handling cars.

 

[dabz343]

A sim can go one of two ways (on a steering wheel), they can try and replicate the exact feeling of a steering wheel of a real car, or they can input different sensations in order to replicate a "seat of the pants" feel. Seems like GT7 does neither of these, it sort of feels like a lateral G-force meter sometimes (what with that weird stretching rubber band feeling you get on some turns) while maybe leaning towards the "exact feeling" feel.

With each passing day, the FFB is slowly creeping up to be the dominant issue for me. As most have stated (from both sides) the underlying physics are generally good. It's the behavior on/slightly over the limit that is less than ideal for most cars, downright strange in some RWDs, and pretty enjoyable with most Gr4/Gr3 cars. Which leads me to conclude that this wonky mixed bag is a result of inconsistent modeling of stock settings. Once tuned, most are able to be dialed in to be acceptable -- this wouldn't be possible if underlying physics are delinquent.

But the FFB is universal, and I'm not finding disparities between models...it is that strange rubber band effect you mention that is prominent in every drive -- street to Gr3, comforts to racing, dry or wet, track or curb. I wish it had a bit more progressive load/fade character on slip...in unison with the sound of scrubbing tires.

Since this may be asking too much processing from a console, I would settle for my TGT to just offer a larger range of 'rubber banding effect.' Right now, if I set the torque to 4, it feels like it plays within 2 - 3Nm. I would prefer to have between 1 - 3Nm...or better yet, just give me the option of selecting my preferred window instead of just offering one fixed value. Then I may be able to find the optimal/communicative range (say 0.7 - 3.1Nm).

 

[JDMKING13]

With each passing day, the FFB is slowly creeping up to be the dominant issue for me. As most have stated (from both sides) the underlying physics are generally good. It's the behavior on/slightly over the limit that is less than ideal for most cars, downright strange in some RWDs, and pretty enjoyable with most Gr4/Gr3 cars. Which leads me to conclude that this wonky mixed bag is a result of inconsistent modeling of stock settings. Once tuned, most are able to be dialed in to be acceptable -- this wouldn't be possible if underlying physics are delinquent.

But the FFB is universal, and I'm not finding disparities between models...it is that strange rubber band effect you mention that is prominent in every drive -- street to Gr3, comforts to racing, dry or wet, track or curb. I wish it had a bit more progressive load/fade character on slip...in unison with the sound of scrubbing tires.

Since this may be asking too much processing from a console, I would settle for my TGT to just offer a larger range of 'rubber banding effect.' Right now, if I set the torque to 4, it feels like it plays within 2 - 3Nm. I would prefer to have between 1 - 3Nm...or better yet, just give me the option of selecting my preferred window instead of just offering one fixed value. Then I may be able to find the optimal/communicative range (say 0.7 - 3.1Nm).

I am on a T300 and I have been jumping back from Ac To GT7 pretty much all morning.. I have been using the TT Supra 97 with 90SV tires in AC and CM tires For the one in GT7. With AC the Supra is planted and feels like it has new Michelin(street tire) tires rather than the old 90’s tire. It is very hard to get the rear to step out and you get heavy understeer with very little oversteer It was very hard to upset the car even with bad throttle inputs/steering.

The Supra in GT7 on the other hand had characteristics of both oversteer and understeer, with my steering/throttle inputs having a huge impact on the cars behavior. The car feel more engaging to do drive rather than AC… This was not the case for GTS… I got slayed on here when I told people even though AC was old when it came to strictly driving it was better than GTS even with a controller. I feel GT7 is right there with AC and actually feel more exciting to drive. Yea I spin out sometimes, but it doesn’t bother me I know when I’m driving the car hard. In GT7 I like the sensation on being on the edge knowing at any moment I can spin a car out if I’m not clean on my inputs.

On the feedback issue when it comes to road feel and tire feel I will give it to AC all day… but what GT7 does well is communicate what the chassis is doing. This is my problem when driving in AC I can feel my tires and the bumps in the road but what the car is actually doing is vague compared to GT7. Also GT7 feedback is a lot better than GTS imo. Again I can’t speak for all but I can pretty much feel everything what the car is doing.. I can also feel each individual tire, when my car has full grip of all tires, downforce, bumps, the chassis moving side to side front to back etc it might not be as smack in your face as ACC but the sensation are there and gotten better than GTS.

 

[Td04]

I am on a T300 and I have been jumping back from Ac To GT7 pretty much all morning.. I have been using the TT Supra 97 with 90SV tires in AC and CM tires For the one in GT7. With AC the Supra is planted and feels like it has new Michelin(street tire) tires rather than the old 90’s tire. It is very hard to get the rear to step out and you get heavy understeer with very little oversteer It was very hard to upset the car even with bad throttle inputs/steering.

The Supra in GT7 on the other hand had characteristics of both oversteer and understeer, with my steering/throttle inputs having a huge impact on the cars behavior. The car feel more engaging to do drive rather than AC… This was not the case for GTS… I got slayed on here when I told people even though AC was old when it came to strictly driving it was better than GTS even with a controller. I feel GT7 is right there with AC and actually feel more exciting to drive. Yea I spin out sometimes, but it doesn’t bother me I know when I’m driving the car hard. In GT7 I like the sensation on being on the edge knowing at any moment I can spin a car out if I’m not clean on my inputs.

On the feedback issue when it comes to road feel and tire feel I will give it to AC all day… but what GT7 does well is communicate what the chassis is doing. This is my problem when driving in AC I can feel my tires and the bumps in the road but what the car is actually doing is vague compared to GT7. Also GT7 feedback is a lot better than GTS imo. Again I can’t speak for all but I can pretty much feel everything what the car is doing.. I can also feel each individual tire, when my car has full grip of all tires, downforce, bumps, the suspension moving side to side front to back etc it might not be as smack in your face as ACC but the sensation are there and gotten better than GTS.

I agree at 200% these are overall my feelings too with both games.

 

[Firestone]

As that's not an example of 'whataboutery' or 'goddidit', which is what I was specifically referring to. If a discussion is about 'car X oversteering in condition Y' and its claimed to be unrealistic and the defence a person uses is 'yeah but in AC car Z does A when it understeers' that's 'whataboutery' and if you then believe that proves the oversteer from the original point is now accurate, it's 'goddidit'. Both are logical fallacies, and as such if you or any other member has an issue with how any other sim drives when it unrelated to the discussion at hand, then you need to take it to the sim in questions sub-forum. Oh, and still expect reality to get cited as the final arbiter.

You mention real life, yes, but your statement regarding the list of experiences implies that AC is a sort of benchmark to go by. When I mentioned my troubles in AC, other forum members challenged me on it and later down the line you were making arguments for it. The whole thread after AC was brought up carried out implications that it should be a benchmark.
I was simply disagreeing with your statement on the FRS characteristics of not being able to oversteer on power, so I turned to AC to look at the characteristics to test the validity of the arguments regarding. Not once did you say that AC was wrong, but multiple times in the thread making cases for it. This is important regarding the discussion when real life and AC are brought up when comparing and contrasting GT7.

No, it's really not.

Confidence is experimental and data driven. Bias is not experimental and data driven.

And yet those with equal or more experience you dismiss out of hand.

There's a lot of bias going around on this thread.

I can assure you the GT86 doesn't break it's rear traction easily on 2nd gear @ 3000 - 4000 rpm unless you really upset the car's balance on corner entry ie, flicking, clutch kick.

The GT86 certainly still has a loose rear end. From other videos on the channel, the guy either has Pilot Sport 4 or 4S. There was no clutch dump of such. He was simply giving it gas in 2nd to break rear traction and starting a slide.

which begs the question how did @tedaxe power slide that GR86 in 5th gear with a higher grade tyre than the OEM tyre.

I asked him to recreate it on other cars. I'm sure the GR86 has similar capabilities to brake traction and drift on higher grade tires since its extremely easy to do so in 3rd gear on Pilot Sport 4. Also, any car can exit a corner at high speed and slide wide. If cars had unlimited grip at higher speeds, no one would be crashing.

yeah when you have ZR1 C6 LS9 level of torque you can, not from a puny 2.4L flat 4 at low revs. I just posted a video where I did 6th gear @3000RPM drift.

I saw the video, you were bogging down and not overpowering the tires.

I guess the techincal term is power slide, still a drift in my book. Want me to post the torqueless RX-8 drift using 5th gear?

If you enter and exit the corner in 5th gear. I'll concede. Power sliding is exiting at high speed. Drift is holding and maintaining rpm and being able to rev out the engine.

Have you actually tried AC, (or even something like ACC or AMS2) with a racing wheel? Because to me the difference between the physics and force feedback of those sims is night and day compared with GT7, especially when driving on the limit. The FFB on GT7 feels numb compared with those sims and driving on the limit is not intuitive at all. If you’ve tried any those sims and learned how to be fast on them (by driving on the limit) then you would know the difference and probably wouldn’t be defending GT7 so hard.

I have AC. I have a G27 wheel. AC has a really great physics engine but the production car setups are inaccurate. I defend GT because my real world experience and it line up. Understeer in AC is a major flaw holding it back. You can tune it out, but it's suffering with the same issues ppl are accusing GT7 oh having.

On AC, you can drive on the limit or slightly beyond and control the car with steering/throttle modulation in a very similar way to that example video. And you can feel what the tyres are doing in the FFB, WAY more than you can in GT7. That’s why people are using sims like AC as the benchmark, because it is a lot closer to real life.

In AC, the cars are really flat. It seems that weight shift is not heavily emphasized. Cars like the GT86 that are suppose to be lively to control feel really dull. Cars like the Mustang GT that tend to be a hand full on throttle feel like what the GT86 should be. If they adjusted the understeer, the game would feel better.

 

[Klik]

There is something seriously wrong with GT3 car's steering angle rear spin even without applying throttle..

Its like even if you drive at normal cruise speed, in corner if you turn wheel a bit too much it spins like on ice..

 

[Johnnn]

I can't help myself but I love this game from physics perspective! Maybe it's weird but it's so good for a racing game.

 

[snc]

I'm coming from AMS, AMS2, RF2, AC. ACC, and 25 years in the motor industry, why am I getting caught off guard?

Do you realy play simracing games ? I checked daily race quali times in your gt sport profile:

ScaffUK | Stats | Gran Turismo Sport | kudosprime.com

www.kudosprime.com

Your times are on level of person who never played racing game. Maybe Im missing something here. I understand gtsport can be not your game but for simracing veteran something really off here.

 

[Techlet]

That's some next level reaching.

 

[Scaff]

You mention real life, yes, but your statement regarding the list of experiences implies that AC is a sort of benchmark to go by.

No, it really doesn't. You can tell that by me listing multiple titles and repeatedly using reality as the only real benchmark.

When I mentioned my troubles in AC, other forum members challenged me on it and later down the line you were making arguments for it. The whole thread after AC was brought up carried out implications that it should be a benchmark.

No, I posted a couple of videos that disproved 'whataboutery'.

I was simply disagreeing with your statement on the FRS characteristics of not being able to oversteer on power,

Except I never said that, in fact, I so didn't say it that I went to the length of calculating the actual physics to show it could!

so I turned to AC to look at the characteristics to test the validity of the arguments regarding. Not once did you say that AC was wrong, but multiple times in the thread making cases for it. This is important regarding the discussion when real life and AC are brought up when comparing and contrasting GT7.

Because I don't use AC as the benchmark. AC gets stuff wrong (less that GT7 but it still does), hell it's not even the in the top three sim title I consider closest to 'right', but that's what assumptions will get you into thinking!

Confidence is experimental and data driven. Bias is not experimental and data driven.

Not even close to being mutually exclusive

There's a lot of bias going around on this thread.

Indeed, and even more assumptions and inaccurate claims about the positions people hold!

Do you realy play simracing games ? I checked daily race quali times in your gt sport profile:

ScaffUK | Stats | Gran Turismo Sport | kudosprime.com

www.kudosprime.com

Your times are on level of person who never played racing game. Maybe Im missing something here. I understand gtsport can be not your game but for simracing veteran something really off here.

So let's see we have two directions we can go with this.

One is the assumption that being quick at GTS makes you a sim racer, which to be blunt is laughably absurd.

The second is that you have to be quick full stop to be able to understand vehicle dynamics and physics, which is equally absurd.

That's a couple of Olympic level stretches.

The reality is that I'm not the quickest around because I have ASD and it affects my fine motor skills to a small degree, as a result, I'm never going to top the leader boards, it hasn't however affected my mental faculties at all and never stopped my training vehicle dynamics for a number of automotive OEMs!

Here's me, comparing a Formula Renault with AC and AMS...



.. that playing sim racing games enough for you?

 

[snc]

So let's see we have two directions we can go with this.

One is the assumption that being quick at GTS makes you a sim racer, which to be blunt is laughably absurd.

The second is that you have to be quick full stop to be able to understand vehicle dynamics and physics, which is equally absurd.

That's a couple of Olympic level stretches.

The reality is that I'm not the quickest around because I have ASD and it affects my fine motor skills to a small degree, as a result, I'm never going to top the leader boards, it hasn't however affected my mental faculties at all and never stopped my training vehicle dynamics for a number of automotive OEMs!

Ok sorry I asked, times just didn't match for me but understand now.

 

[Techlet]

I wonder how many F1 engineers can get the cars they designed and built out of Q1.

 

[dabz343]

I appreciate your comments so I will address them first.

With AC the Supra is planted and feels like it has new Michelin(street tire) tires rather than the old 90’s tire. It is very hard to get the rear to step out and you get heavy understeer with very little oversteer It was very hard to upset the car even with bad throttle inputs/steering.

The Supra in GT7 on the other hand had characteristics of both oversteer and understeer, with my steering/throttle inputs having a huge impact on the cars behavior. The car feel more engaging to do drive rather than AC…

Interesting distinctions. I am not at a place to say because I do not play AC. However, I will assert an idea that perhaps the difference you are experiencing between AC and GT7 is not primarily due to the underlying physics, but it has more to do with how the Supra is modeled in each game...I am guessing you are driving (inputing) the same for the Surpa in both games? Yet you state the cars behave differently. An interesting test that may help us -- drive around at 7/10ths and see if load transfer/grip/etc behave predictably in both games - they may or may not. But if they do reproduce similar characteristics, then we can confirm that both have realism going. Now, put a little stress on them and measure how both games render dynamics at 9+. I will bet that this is where the disparity lies. Game physics for me is the underlying language/alphabet, and individual behavior/character exhibited by cars are cohesive phrases/sentences/thoughts. Does this mean that I think all underlying physics have no role? No, absolutely not. But, I'm asserting that the modeling of cars are equally important, if not more.

In GT7 I like the sensation on being on the edge knowing at any moment I can spin a car out if I’m not clean on my inputs.

Yes,, but to a point in my opinion. Every car in GT7 has to reflect the inherent character that is present in real life examples (this is not easy btw). Additionally, following the said logic, all vehicle dynamics reproduced and simulated in GT7 needs to be firmly based in fundamentals...You know, Newton's Laws...Einstein's Theories...Bhor's Quantum Mechanics...

Finding and mastering that limit/timing in any game is enjoyable. But in driving/racing sims, it should reflect a known reality. Otherwise , don't call it a sim.

Also GT7 feedback is a lot better than GTS imo. Again I can’t speak for all but I can pretty much feel everything what the car is doing.. I can also feel each individual tire, when my car has full grip of all tires, downforce, bumps, the chassis moving side to side front to back etc

Great that you are sensing in such detail. I'm not getting anything near your observations on my TGT. As I said, I get the resistance through the wheel, but it is a bit dull and goes pretty flat when pushing. There is the rumble feature in the TGT that kicks in here and there, but downforce and chassis (which you state you feel) is non existent for me. I do feel a bit of a roll mid-corner, but the nuance I'm looking for there to feel the transfer and balance is dull. If the transient stage had better fidelity, and more progression, then I would praise it...but feedback is better than GTS, agree.

Lastly, I mentioned I owned an e34 M5 and put 200k on the s38...majority of that was weekending through the Mulholland canyons and PCH. The thing that this car taught me was, to get the weight transfer right. It was the only way I was able to keep up with the 993s through the Snake. The steering had a 2 inch play at center, but loaded nicely, with ample communication from the front wheels...but the feedback that really mattered was from the chassis. It told you everything about each of the 4 corners and what inputs produced results.

I hope we get additional feedback about chassis, but without gforces, I'm puzzled as to how.