GT Academy

[Sphinx]

Hi folks,

just wanted to say hi. My G25 is unfortunately broken as Logitech told me to do so. My shifter was broken at this moment. They wanted to send me a new one when I destroy my current one. (bad english I know )

Today, after 2 months, I bought a new one and will send them the bill. Tired of waiting.

Back to the topic.

@Jerry: The reverse gear trick was a bug indeed. But using the clutch isn't a bug, as it is part of a car. When you shift you usually use the clutch. As most of the wheels do not give you the opportunity to drive with a clutch, the G25 does.

This is currently a bad situation, as the G25 is quite expensive and not everyone can afford this wheel which is indeed a disadvantage. Nevertheless I think with race cars there won't be a too big difference. With streetcars it's a another story as we have seen in this comp.

Sorry to hear about your wheel problems, jmr

Oh, I've got a nibble.
I don't believe it was a bug because why would it be obtainable in GT1, GT3, GTC, and GT4P (GT2 was never tested) if it was indeed a bug?

Take into account that it is obtainable in all theses GT versions and how it replicates exactly what the G25 clutch does, then one must question the "bug" claim.

I believe that its always been a hidden feature in GT (until it was made inaccessible in GT4 after it was made public in the GTP & GTRP forums) that has been under development for years but has never been released. I therefore believe that the G25 uses this hidden feature and is the reason why no other device can replicate it. In order for the G25 to replicate a clutch, there must be coding within the game to enable it.

 

[jmr]

Yeah, I dont know why you cannot enable the clutch, e.g. a button, for the other wheels.

Enabling the clutch with the G25 you need to push the shifter down and press the triangel at the same time. It is indeed strange, that a wheel which is not officially supported by the game, can enable the clutch with pushing these 2 "butons".

The clutch does not work when you do not push them before you start a session. So it is an option by the game. Still strange why it is just for the G25, as I do not think the game makes a difference between a button or a pedal for the clutch thingie. There is no half way or full clutch so far I know.

 

[Sphinx]

Enabling the clutch with the G25 you need to push the shifter down and press the triangle at the same time.

Interesting, the button to enable the "bug" was also the triangle button.


EDIT:
Does the G25 clutch work in other versions of the game?

 

[Jay]

Enabling the clutch with the G25 you need to push the shifter down and press the triangel at the same time. It is indeed strange, that a wheel which is not officially supported by the game, can enable the clutch with pushing these 2 "butons".

No, you only need to press the triangle button to enable the clutch (when in manual mode).

EDIT:
Does the G25 clutch work in other versions of the game?

Only GT5P.

 

[jmr]

really? just heard about the combo between triangel and the shifter. Will try that in the next session. thx for the info.

 

[CMir]

EDIT:
Does the G25 clutch work in other versions of the game?

If by "other versions of the game" you mean GT4 and previous GT's, no, it doesn't (at least in GT4).

 

[RoboKrikit]

Hopefully the full release of GT5 will make no-lift shifting a little more realistic. As-is, there is basically no downside other than looking like a bit of a cheater. I always lift the throttle when I shift with my G25, though I usually shift quicker than without the clutch activated.

Realistically, the smoothest upshift is done by rev-matching, exactly what the controller and sequential shifters do in Prologue. Putting the transmission in gear earlier than this should stress the transmission and send sudden torque to the driven wheels, resulting in clutch/transmission wear, and things like chirping or spinning the tires, and destabilizing the car.

To make things more fair for control methods lacking a clutch, in manual cars with pro physics enabled, maybe the automatic rev-matched upshifting needs to go. If you leave your foot down and shift, you should be slapping the rev limiter, same as the G25 in clutch mode when you shift without lifting.

Also don't forget that when you start using a clutch, you lose the free rev-matched downshifts that pads and sequentials provide, and this does make a difference if you don't have heel-toe downshifting down pat.

Edit: Holding down the shift button for neutral is a decent idea I picked up from another thread. Release to engage. Seems like it'd fit better with a pad than e.g. a DFP.

 

[Sphinx]

If by "other versions of the game" you mean GT4 and previous GT's, no, it doesn't (at least in GT4).

Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks. 👍

I've been doing some number crunching and I now believe that a mid 1'20.6 is possible using the DFP. There is no possibility of me getting that low, my absolute best using the DFP would be a high 1'20.8. It looks like the G25 can gain .300 from its unique gear shifting, thus making a mid to low 1'20.3 possible.

edit:
By the way:

"The Following goods have been despatched:
1 x Logitech G25 Racing Wheel"

 

[Kryz11]

So when are the Championships ending? Do we have a clear winner by now to say the least?
Too bad, I'm in US. I'm not the best driver, but if the Academy involved US players, I would be practicing all day and night

 

[Chronos]

GT Academy Top 20 UK & Ireland

Track: The Eiger Nordwand Forward
Car: Nissan Fairlady Z Version S '07 (Non-Tuned)
Driving Physics: Professional
Tyres: Normal N1

1. Andy_616 - 1'20.942 - G25 with Clutch
2. Oldbeanee - 1'20.994 - G25 with Clutch
3. GTP_Sphinx - 1'21.108 - DFP
4. PrudentBear - 1'21.230 - G25 with Paddle Shift
5. jebus25 - 1'21.262
6. rapid46 - 1'21.422
7. KarlRacer - 1'21.438
8. GTP_Mr_P - 1'21.484 - DFP
9. Chronos-GTS - 1'21.500 - G25 with Paddle Shift
10. No46_TheDoctor - 1'21.511
11. mogus-3000 - 1'21.554
12. bicycleshorts - 1'21.594 - G25 with Clutch
13. WingedBeast1968 - 1'21.630
14. SPARKY098 - 1'21.649
15. SelfMutilation - 1'21.652
16. nemoh - 1'21.667
17. Steve-o-tron - 1'21.671
18. GTP_Stervisiov - 1'21.706
19. GTGENIUS1982 - 1'21.714
20. theewar - 1'21.735​

Well done Oldbeanee, I watched your lap and you could get 200 off your 1st sector and be in 1'20.7xx

Everyone feel free to edit/update this 👍

 

[Gnobody]

I had a look at most of the top 20 replay's today, I am very impressed!

All drivers showed great skill and control over their cars, I wish I was half as good and as quick!!

I will be taking another look soon, there is a lot I can learn from you guys!

Anyway, best of luck to all that enter, but I'm wishing the bestest luck to the GTP guys! 👍

BTW: I wish that they wouldn't alternate the name of the driver with the make of car on the leaderboard, we wll know what car everyone is driving beacause it's the same for everyone! It takes twice as long to study the board when it keeps flashing!!

 

[code131158]

Oooh damn...impressing times at the UK list. I wouldnt even be on that list :/ what's the secret? So far I managed to get 1.22.39x and is fourth on the norwegian list. I know I can shave off to 1.21.8 or 9 but 1.20.xxx impossible for me. How can I watch those replays?

Are you/those guys hardcore gamers or real pro drivers? Anyone know this?

btw: What is foot-heel brake gas good for? When to do it? While gearing down?

 

[Timppaq]

OK, Now please, someone teach me how to drive the T1 with DFP!!!! Just made 1'21.043 with a T1 of 0'34.443 !!! So there´s .4sec too much there. I guess I prefer the faster corners. lol.

Gnight!

 

[bicycleshorts]

What I think a lot of people are forgetting here is that it's not simply a case of buying a G25 and your time will suddenly drop by a second. You would probably need to spend about 50-100 laps practicing upshifting and downshifting effectively before you could match your times. Learning to heel toe is not as easy as people seem to be making out on here.

What I've noticed I can save a lot of time downshifting, I've not really noticed a time increase in the straight line. Bare in mind the only upshifts that really help are coming out of the 3rd hairpin onto the straight and out of the sweeping right into the tunnel.

I would try with the paddles to see how close I could get if my damn feet would fit on the pedals!

Edit:

What is foot-heel brake gas good for? When to do it? While gearing down?

As you're downshifting, when you push the clutch in, you tap the accelerator to boost the revs a little bit so the car stays flatter and enables smoother (and faster) braking. There are a lot of tutorials on youtube that I used to learn, this guy helped explain it to me: http://youtube.com/watch?v=W7bb2OKFKgc

"The Following goods have been despatched:
1 x Logitech G25 Racing Wheel"

Awesome, look forward to following your ghost!

 

[homeforsummer]

Are you/those guys hardcore gamers or real pro drivers? Anyone know this?

btw: What is foot-heel brake gas good for? When to do it? While gearing down?

On the 'heel and toe' technique, it's easiest to explain if you drive in real life, do you? If you do, you'll know that if you change down from say, fourth to third, then your revs will rise as you let the clutch back up because the rotation of the wheels on the road is higher in the rev range in a lower gear than it is at a higher gear.

Heel and toe downchanges enable the driver to match the revs, so than when the clutch is disengaged the engine is already turning at the correct speed for the wheels in that given gear. This gives the driver more control because it takes away the weight transfer you'd normally get from sudden engine braking, and it's also more mechanically sympathetic because the clutch isn't having to slip during the downchange.

I'd expect the leaderboard is mainly hardcore gamers, though it wouldn't surprise me if many of the top guys have at least some fast road/track experience.

 

[SpiffyDeezy]

So if you don't press the clutch it won't shift?

 

[profi]

Hi profi, I know what your saying about the clutch, it is a slight advantage, and if 20 clutch using G25 users compete with 20 equally matched DFP users, most G25 users will go through. At the moment PrudentBear and Sphinx are near the top with paddle shift and zocker has a 1'20 with the DFP.

I can't see any difference in up-shifting between using paddles or pressing the X button on your sixaxis, I've checked a few times and all paddle shifters, sixaxis, H-gate shifting without pressing clutch down is autoclutch ( tiny tiny benefit of selecting down a gear quicker, maybe), dfp users are in the SAME boat with auto clutch and the real time gained at the moment is more control on N1 tyres with a good wheel. It is a shame for pad users, but I'm sure you'll need to use a wheel in the next stage.

So it could be an issue but I think your focusing too much on the top German time and the clutch, and you need to buy a wheel and at least do paddle shift (which for me is the same as button pressing on your sixaxis) like the majority in the competition, and sell it when your done. I tried buying a used wheel but was shocked at how they hold their price used and sell quick so I bought a new one instead.

Hi Chronos,

I raced against Sphinxs ghost tonight (he used DFP) and also watched the replay incar several times - and it is like you say:
The shifting behaves the same as using the sixaxis which I use for myself.

You are also right by telling me to only be competitive by using a wheel (even without a clutch) and therefore get (buy) one (and sell it afterwards.. :-)

I know in the next stage of the competition there will be an event where 20 Playseats including wheels (DFP) are set up and there wont be a big chance for getting a pad connected instead.

As for Sphinxs ride (1.21.1xx):

It shows that the time he gains compared to my own driving is based on his smooth driving. All other ghosts I raced already (the replays of the top ten) clearly showed the acceleration advantage to me, but not Sphinxs.

Sphinxs time - driven without clutch, just the DFP, shows that he is one of the best drivers in the competition.

I suppose that if he takes part in the next stage of the competition he will have the advantage of beeing familiar with the DFP because I dont think they will make G25 wheels available but their new DFP wheel (DFGT or whatever they call it). So the G25 users will miss their clutch...

 

[Mr P]

Well I'm done with this and wont be racing it again .. It was fun at first getting the feel of N1 tyres, something I have never used before in any GT game to date
I just find it a tad too much work overall for my liking when all is said and done, I like to race with some kind of grip and this combo was like steering a boat on a road covered with baby oil
I ran for an hour earlier and so many 34.1's at T1 just to stuff it at the next right hander before the tunnel 90% of the time ... and the other 10% I stuffed it just after T2 with my best being 58.1 versus my 58.4 in my leaderboard lap 👎 ... but there was always some sort of stupid error in the lap and its been too many laps for me since this combo was released .. It's just not for me and my patience can take no more!

Good luck to all drivers taking part with this and hopefully it isn't driving people up the wall with consistent errors like I have been getting on my last few sessions!
Have fun guys and may the best drivers win and not necessarily the best wheels
Ron.

 

[ProblemSolver]

Hi profi!

Hi ProblemSolver,

I really wish you would manage to do a time below 1.22.xxx ...

After 250 laps into Eiger, I'm now down to 1'22:131, using a pad,
and I'm currently ranked in position 46 on the german leaderboard.
Yeah, call-me Mr. teH Pad!

Btw; I can't see your PSN ID on the german leaderboard, why?

... and prove me wrong.

Sorry, but I will do it.

My new fastest lap wasn't a perfect lap either. There were some visible
mistakes. I've lost about 0.1s at T1 (right-left turn), about 0.1s at the
left turn before the bridge, 0.1s on the long straight after the tunnel,
and 0.1s at the right turn before the start/finish line. Hence, my
estimated perfect-pad-lap time lies within the 1'21:7xx range. I'm not
joking.

Okey, I've improved from 1'22:718 down to 1'22:131, about 587
thousandth of a second. How did I managed that? As I told you,
I already had a 0.5s lead but didn't managed the turn after the tunnel.
But now I can manage this turn, because I switched to bumper-view!
Cockpit-view is great, but at high speeds the missing frames makes up
for a huge difference in control.

Last but not least, I had an energy drink! 👍

Because then I would know that its up to me and my personell
capabilities to do the same.

But I fear I am right and we "pad-players" will never go to Dubai...

"... and we 'pad-players' will never go to Dubai..."
Yes its rather difficult with the pad, but we "pad-players" can have our
own competition;
The best pad-player gets a 3-day-ticket to fly to Dubai to watch the entire
race, sponsored by !@$*_*#^&+3 (PD, gtplanet.net, ...).

Any suggestions?

Im accepting the fact already altough I had such an initial ambition to get to the next stage at least.

Don't give up!

Ok, you are now 750 laps into Eiger. That's a lot! But tell me, how often
have you changed your pad configuration as well as tinkered around with
the brake balance, the ABS, and the traction control? I've switched the
pad configuration a lot (steering, braking, accelerating, ..., left- or
right-handed, etc.).
I further drove about 50 laps with ABS off to find out how the weight-shift
of the car locks up the breaks under certain conditions like on corner entry,
on uphill/downhill, on different brake balance settings, etc.. There are a lot
more things one can experiment with. For example, I'm now playing with
weight-shifting before the right turn after the tunnel. To do so, I approach
the turn about 1/4 off from the left side of the road and then, before
entering the turn, I quickly steer to the left and then to the right to load
a good portion of weight to the tyres on the outside. However, the tick is
to keep it altogether, to keep the car in balance. Further, the G-Meter
could also be put to good use with respect to the grip level.

I guess, a lot of GT5P-wheel-drivers simply profit from the advantage of
the wheel to a good portion. But doing an analysis of the car itself is what
defines racing in the end, a fast time is the result of knowing the car's
limit. To know the limit you have to take many different approaches
whether you are using a wheel or not. I know you knew this already!
As an example, I've also done 50 laps on Suzuka with the 350Z in
tinkering around with some of my settings to gain some insights about
how the car behaves under heavy load.

I have no doubt about your abilities, no question about that! But I know
by now; you haven't pushed the car to its limit!

Okey, I hope you are now motivated enough....

And btw; Racing with a pad is old-school!


PS: ...pssst... a 1'21:5xx might be possible ... perfect cornering assumed ...
... however, some additional research has to be made....

 

[PrudentBear]

Did a 1:21.053 last night - close but no cigar! (And still no clutch)

It was clear to me that sub 1:21 is possible without using the clutch as I was one or two tenths up on my new best at the first split several times but threw it away later.

I would say that while the top time stays above 1:20.8 it's still beatable with a clutchless wheel.

I'll hopefully go sub 1:21 at some point and then leave it. The concentration required is getting quite high now!

 

[Timppaq]

Did a 1:21.053 last night - close but no cigar! (And still no clutch)

It was clear to me that sub 1:21 is possible without using the clutch as I was one or two tenths up on my new best at the first split several times but threw it away later.

I would say that while the top time stays above 1:20.8 it's still beatable with a clutchless wheel.

I'll hopefully go sub 1:21 at some point and then leave it. The concentration required is getting quite high now!

Nice time! Good job 👍 ..any possibility for T1 & T2 times?

EDIT: As Sphinx said, sub 1'20.600 is possible (damn near perfect) without a clutch. If I had zocker's T1 I would have been close, and my T2 wasn't anywhere near perfect. (with "perfect" I mean for me, lol)

 

[Sphinx]

EDIT: As Sphinx said, sub 1'20.600 is possible (damn near perfect) without a clutch. If I had zocker's T1 I would have been close, and my T2 wasn't anywhere near perfect. (with "perfect" I mean for me, lol)

Yeah, your latest lap time does help to confirm my 1'20.6 claim. 👍

Ron,
Sorry to hear that you're done with this one.
Anyone who can get a T1 of 34.1 surely has what it takes, so respect for that, mate. 👍 👍 I however have yet to see a 34.1, and I'm still scraching my arse trying to figure out how the hell you guys are doing it. Too much skill me thinks. 👍

 

[ProblemSolver]

Hi profi!

Hi Chronos,

I raced against Sphinxs ghost tonight (he used DFP) and also watched the replay incar several times - and it is like you say:
The shifting behaves the same as using the sixaxis which I use for myself.

Have you made some improvements?

You are also right by telling me to only be competitive by using a wheel (even without a clutch) and therefore get (buy) one (and sell it afterwards.. :-)

I know in the next stage of the competition there will be an event where 20 Playseats including wheels (DFP) are set up and there wont be a big chance for getting a pad connected instead.

As for Sphinxs ride (1.21.1xx):

It shows that the time he gains compared to my own driving is based on his smooth driving. All other ghosts I raced already (the replays of the top ten) clearly showed the acceleration advantage to me, but not Sphinxs.

And this holds for the pad, too. As I have written;
"Despite there are some advantages in using the clutch, for me, it breaks
down to the following; acceleration and steering."
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3048243&postcount=341

I've revisited your previous post;
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3047424&postcount=291

You wrote:

"3rd hairpin (right turn)....
I am up with the ghost (!), he is invisible.
(The very difficult..) acceleration onto and over the bridge...
The ghost outperforms me at this part clearly."

Why? I guess you lose traction before and on the bridge, right? Where
is your shifting point (into 3rd gear)?

"The ghosts of the top 2 players (doing 1.20.4xx / 1.20.6xx) manage to
get into 4th gear after the jump (!)."

What is your speed at the start/finish line? I'm in the range of
120 - 123km/h and I switch into 4th gear within the jump.

 

[MaDHaX]

I'm really struggling to improve on my time now, I may of hit my limit already I may be able to shave off .400 of a second but i just keep spinning out whenever I on target.

Hey Sphinx I'm using the old DF wheel a bit battered aswell I have to reset the wheel to the center every so often by force...lol anyway, what is the difference between DF and DFP?

 

[Sphinx]

Hey Sphinx I'm using the old DF wheel a bit battered aswell I have to reset the wheel to the center every so often by force...lol anyway, what is the difference between DF and DFP?

There are a number of differences. Here is a quote I grabbed that more or less sums up the differences:

DFP uses a newer more refined force feedback system, it varies the amount of force feedback now. DF has regular force feedback.

DFP has a sequential stick shifter. DF uses paddle shifters only.

DFP has a new button layout, it's on the center of the wheel unlike the DF so it doesn't interfere with putting your hands on the wheel. DF puts the buttons and d-pad on the wheel rim itself.

DFP has 900 degrees of turning. The DF has 200 degrees.

DFP uses an actual rack and pinion system with steel bearings for longer durability. DF doesn't.

 

[MaDHaX]

Thanks for the info Sphinx. 900 degrees damn I need to be more gentle with my steering. I'm having to sell My Xbox and PS2 to get the G25 I just hope I can get the wheel in time otherwise I will regret selling my consoles especially my PS2 I wont be able to play favourite beat'em up anymore. SF3:3s.

 

[Kutscher80]

Hello!

Thanks a lot to Sphinx for putting his lap here as a zip file.

Your lap showed me that my ideas were good and that my driving line is good as well.
I will now have to work on my traction losses (I am driving with a DFP) and I already had an idea and your lap showed that this idea can work.

Don´t bother to look for me in the german leaderbord, I am not in the Top100...
(no wonder when I read that some people here have done more than 600 laps of Eiger, while I have maybe 70...)

I wish the GTP Members a lot of luck and please keep us "normal" drivers posted about the ongoing Competition.

Greetings

Kutscher

 

[Sphinx]

Thanks for the info Sphinx. 900 degrees damn I need to be more gentle with my steering. I'm having to sell My Xbox and PS2 to get the G25 I just hope I can get the wheel in time otherwise I will regret selling my consoles especially my PS2 I wont be able to play favourite beat'em up anymore. SF3:3s.

My Honest Opinion if you're short on cash; Get a second hand DFP before spending out on a G25. If you can't improve your time with the DFP then the G25 won't help you much. Also, DFP's currently hold their price well, so use it, then sell it on if you feel that you're ready for the G25, and you have the funds available. 👍

Hello!

Thanks a lot to Sphinx for putting his lap here as a zip file.

You're welcome. 👍

 

[profi]

Hi ProblemSolver,

nice to hear youre about to get into the 1.21.xxx.

You dont see my PSNID at the lederboard because im using a special one only for the competition which I dont want to make public...

While racing against Sphinxs ghost I didnt improve. I did almost the same time once (few 100th slower) than my best.
You know you have to be "in the right mood" to improve laptimes... and I wasnt.

Ahh.. How can you adjust the brake-balance without having access to the quick-tuning menu ???? Did I overlook something here ? And what do you mean by "switching around the pad configuration" ?

I know I can adjust TC, active steering, ABS, Racing line - but what else ?

Changing the assignments of my controllers buttons wont help because I drove with this config since years..

As for my motivation: Yes you are motivating me to do a similiar laptime as you do because we are using the same hardware and I know - its up to my driving to do it.

Is your replay still a secret or are you willing to show it already ?

PS: My speed at the start-finish line is 120km/h and yes, I am loosing traction while approaching the bridge. I am also sure I can do a low 1.22.xxx (because there are of course errors in my driving) but its a brain thing...

Brain says: Hey, what do want with your 1.22.3xx - he ? You will need a 1.21.5xx at least to make it into the next stage... and: hohoho: you will never manage this with your crappy hardware...

 

[ProblemSolver]

Hi profi!

Hi ProblemSolver,

nice to hear youre about to get into the 1.21.xxx.

You dont see my PSNID at the lederboard because im using a special one only for the competition which I dont want to make public...

Then I "know" who you are.

While racing against Sphinxs ghost I didnt improve. I did almost the same time once (few 100th slower) than my best.
You know you have to be "in the right mood" to improve laptimes... and I wasnt.

okey

Ahh.. How can you adjust the brake-balance without having access to the quick-tuning menu ???? Did I overlook something here ? And what do you mean by "switching around the pad configuration" ?

Yes, you overlooked something. Go to the controller settings and assign
buttons for the in-game tuning menu. Within the game you can call
the menu and adjust your settings.

I know I can adjust TC, active steering, ABS, Racing line - but what else ?

TC, ABS, and brake balance (for the 350Z).

Changing the assignments of my controllers buttons wont help because I drove with this config since years..

This might be a disadvantage if your setting isn't perfect.

As for my motivation: Yes you are motivating me to do a similiar laptime as you do because we are using the same hardware and I know - its up to my driving to do it.

Nice!

Is your replay still a secret or are you willing to show it already ?

If I break teH pad-barrier then you can have it.
For the time being, just play with the tuning menu.
(perhaps you may recognize something interesting)

PS: My speed at the start-finish line is 120km/h and yes,

120km/h is okey.

I am loosing traction while approaching the bridge.

Accelerate carefully and try crossing the bridge more on the lefthand side.
(you will recognize something -- arrrrgh ... ProblemSolver, shut up!)

I am also sure I can do a low 1.22.xxx (because there are of course errors in my driving) but its a brain thing...

Brain says: Hey, what do want with your 1.22.3xx - he ?

You will need a 1.21.5xx at least to make it into the next stage...

It sounds crazy, but this is my plan. However, some research have to be
made. Simple pad-driving isn't enough. Some enhanced techniques must be
used, like the weight-shifting technique I was talking about.

and: hohoho: you will never manage this with your crappy hardware...