GT and the understeer tradition

[Anes]

So you GT4 troopers, remember the chronic entry and mid corner understeer that plagued that game? I do, and it's in GT5 too.

Now, I've noticed this more and more as I'm finding cars I drive regularly and an average corner goes like this..

Brake
Ease off brake and turn in
Understeer
Straighten wheel and turn in again
Understeer
Get on the throttle just before the apex
Understeer again so you back off and wait for the tyres to bite

Once you pass the apex, you pick up the throttle and suddenly, like you've crossed an invisible line, there's gobfulls of oversteer.


Is anyone else noticing this? It's really starting to annoy me and it was the same in GT4 but more obvious. And here's the magic words - it's unrealistic.

Thread is directed at wheel users. I myself use a g27.


ps, I'm mildy drunk so I'm sorry if my sentence structure is off.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

The only thing I have noticed any real understeer in was a Mini S that I borrowed from a friend who had added to much power for the tires. Otherwise understeer has showed up only when I am not slowing down properly for the corners which is exactly what will happen in real life. I have noticed a lot of power oversteer in high power RWD cars, especially those which have race suspension and a high rpm turbo but again this is normal. The race suspension sets the rear toe to +0.20 which helps it corner but will also induce oversteer. Default damper settings may also induce some understeer on entry and oversteer on exit.

I have not spent much time tuning as of yet in GT5 but I know on Forza and in real life softening the damper setting on the front will induce more oversteer on entry and more understeer on exit which effectively corrects the handling on many high powered rwd cars.

btw I used a PWTS

 

[Anes]

Well yeah that will happen with a FWD car of course...

My main driver is a f430 Scuderia on sport soft tyres. It's hugely noticeable on Rome and the 'ring.

I urge anyone reading to test it out. Car is fully modified.

 

[RobGT81]

Ive got massive amounts of understeer in my Lancia Delta rally car on tarmac, works a treat on snow and dirt, even feels like it has more grip on those two than it does on tarmac, playing with the lsd to trying and sort it out but getting no where

 

[shirakawaa]

All cars in GT5 have by default +0.00 degrees front toe and +0.20 degrees rear toe.
This includes racing cars too. This will cause understeer and general straight line stability, something that sports cars or better, race cars, strive to avoid.
Also, strangely camber is most of the time way off. Most cars in GT5 have zero camber on both front and rear axles. Some racing cars have a small amount of camber, but again that's usually way below what should normally considered normal for these cars.

I believe that PD have set up all cars for stability to appeal to a wider public.
You can check out default suspension alignment values by purchasing in the game any suspension kit. Once you do, you can check the default values of stock suspensions.
Personally I believe it's a serious problem, as this implies that most cars do not handle like they are suppose to do.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I think that 0.20 toe is only on the ones with race suspension. If I remember correctly GT4 did the same thing whereas sport and semi race had different settings.

 

[Bigbazz]

Understeer problem is gone in GT5, i use a G27, i played GT4 with a gamepad.

 

[RacingManiac]

There are cars thats worse for this than the others. My Z06 RM suffers for this on some track more than others(Cape Ring and Tokyo are worst for me in that car), yet it seems totally fine in others. Road car tend to be worse since lacking front downforce is an issue.

I agree with HBR's point though, its much worse when I out braked myself....but the symptoms is much amplifed in constant radius long corners, and there are times when you feel you are in the corner forever....

NASCAR around road courses are a hoot though, those things slide into a turn beautifully....just need to watch out not to overload the front....

 

[Vanon]

So you GT4 troopers, remember the chronic entry and mid corner understeer that plagued that game? I do, and it's in GT5 too.

Now, I've noticed this more and more as I'm finding cars I drive regularly and an average corner goes like this..

Brake
Ease off brake and turn in
Understeer
Straighten wheel and turn in again
Understeer
Get on the throttle just before the apex
Understeer again so you back off and wait for the tyres to bite

Once you pass the apex, you pick up the throttle and suddenly, like you've crossed an invisible line, there's gobfulls of oversteer.


Is anyone else noticing this? It's really starting to annoy me and it was the same in GT4 but more obvious. And here's the magic words - it's unrealistic.

Thread is directed at wheel users. I myself use a g27.


ps, I'm mildy drunk so I'm sorry if my sentence structure is off.

Noticed that too, seems like there's only one way to do a turn without going straight (reach the apex then accelerate) and this makes quite difficult to "learn" a track, especially if you turn off abs (and using a G25 this means tyre locking every time I gently touch the brakes ...) because it's quite difficult to reach the right speed for not passing the apex..
BTW it's only a matter of trying and trying but sometimes it's quite annoying

PS. ...drunk? what time is it where you live?

 

[shirakawaa]

I think that 0.20 toe is only on the ones with race suspension. If I remember correctly GT4 did the same thing whereas sport and semi race had different settings.

No, all cars. Try purchasing any suspension kit.
Then in the parts settings screen select stock suspension and click on the "settings" icon. You won't be able to change anything, but you will see that the car will have +0.20 degrees of rear toe (and most probably 0 camber too). This is for every car in the game (at least those I have seen regarding toe values. As I wrote, sometimes there is some very light camber).

I think PD might have forgot to insert proper wheel alignment (toe and camber) values for most cars. I'm not sure if by accident or on purpose, though.
I'd say on purpose.

 

[Anes]

Believe me I change my setup the instant I get in a new car. First things I do to my cars is give them front rake via ride height, some camber and adjust the sway bars.

I know this isn't a setup issue, this is programmed into the physics. GT4 players will know what I'm talking about.

PS. ...drunk? what time is it where you live?

1am

 

[shirakawaa]

What I'm saying is that it's not normal that cars have generally no camber and more rear toe-in than what can be found in real passenger cars. It could be a physics issue, but wheel alignment settings are most of the time (if not all the times) plain wrong, set up for understeer.

 

[ropertron_]

Well yeah that will happen with a FWD car of course...

My main driver is a f430 Scuderia on sport soft tyres. It's hugely noticeable on Rome and the 'ring.

I urge anyone reading to test it out. Car is fully modified.

Must admit, i struggle with my f430...

 

[JeffKill]

I've found this game to be very similar to Forza in the sense that you need to do some tuning to the cars if you want to get rid of understeer/oversteer. Doesn't take much though. I already know what Im doing as far as tuning the cars, so I generally only takes me a couple minutes to set up a car. But for those that don't, they provide a detailed description as to what each adjustment will do. Start experimenting with the tuning and you should be able to get the results you're looking for.

Also, be realistic with your expectations. I haven't tried maxed out Scuderia on sport soft tires yet, but if it's around 650 hp on sport soft tires, it's not gonna handle all that great. I'll give it a go tonight though and see what happens. Mine is currently fully upgraded with racing soft tires and a wing.

 

[xSNAKEx]

lol. I think a lot of this has to do with the sensation of speed and momemtum you get out of the game is not the same as real life.
Look at the speed your turning the corner in GT5 And then do that with a real car in real life (safely ofcourse) see if you can take a similar corner the same. You'll realise its just you think your going slower in the game than you actualy are.
The only unrealistic thing that comes to mind is some cars are not programmed right into GT5.
Have you guys even tried to drive the Veyron in its STOCK form? Now THAT is messed up understeer, and I've seen videos of a real Veyron which did not behave like that.

 

[Anes]

What I'm saying is that it's not normal that cars have generally no camber and most rear toe in than what can be found in real passenger cars. It could be a physics issue, but wheel alignment settings are most of the time (if not all the times) plain wrong, set up for understeer.

Agreed.

When I first saw the default settings I was a bit confused as to why they did it BUT, I'm still sure that same flaw from GT4's physics is back in GT5.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

No, all cars. Try purchasing any suspension kit.
Then in the parts settings screen select stock suspension and click on the "settings" icon. You won't be able to change anything, but you will see that the car will have +0.20 degrees of rear toe (and most probably 0 camber too). This is for every car in the game (at least those I have seen regarding toe values. As I wrote, sometimes there is some very light camber).

I think PD might have forgot to insert proper wheel alignment (toe and camber) values for most cars. I'm not sure if by accident or on purpose, though.
I'd say on purpose.

I'll check it out after Bob finishes the Indy 500.

btw Forza 3 setup the cars for understeer as well. Usually the first thing I do to a car in Forza 3 is soften the front roll bar a little to lessen the effect.

 

[Vanon]

1am

Ok then, I thought you were british, being drunk at 15 pm it's not so normal

 

[shirakawaa]

I'll check it out after Bob finishes the Indy 500.

btw Forza 3 setup the cars for understeer as well. Usually the first thing I do to a car in Forza 3 is soften the front roll bar a little to lessen the effect.

I find worrying that the default suspension set-up is wrong or has been tweaked to increase drivability for the general public, though. After discovering the wheel alignment issue, I often wondered if cars in GT5 handle like they are supposed to do. By the way, I even tried asking Yamauchi about this issue via Twitter a while back. Not expecting an answer, though

 

[xSNAKEx]

Ok then, I thought you were british, being drunk at 15 pm it's not so normal

Lol wtf is 15 pm?

Anyway This always annoys me about Driving games. They never set the damn suspension, TCS, ECS, ASC, etc settings the SAME as the real life cars have when in stock form. I dont understand how they can claim any realism aspects without this, it is such a MASSIVE flaw.

 

[barryl85]

Ok stop everything!

Someone make the game easier for this guy ASAP

Sorry had to quote you from another thread for lolz.....


However I do actually agree with you from some of the cars i have driven !

 

[Anes]

Lol wtf is 15 pm?

Anyway This always annoys me about Driving games. They never set the damn suspension, TCS, ECS, ASC, etc settings the SAME as the real life cars have when in stock form. I dont understand how they can claim any realism aspects without this, it is such a MASSIVE flaw.

He's speaking in 24hre time, 3pm.

And don't get me started on that. Have you tried upgrading your ECU in an E type jag? Makes me lol

Sorry had to quote you from another thread for lolz.....


However I do actually agree with you from some of the cars i have driven !

Well not to brag but I don't have a single bronze or silvber trophy in my game .

However, this issue is a physics issue.

 

[JackC8]

I rarely miss an opportunity to complain about the game, but no, I haven't really noticed any unrealistic understeer. Plenty of weird and quirky oversteer on various cars - I was driving a modified Audi R8 (the orange SEMA one) in the first endurance race and I could just downshift before the third corner and the car would magically set itself up for the perfect corner entrance And those Nascar things on a road course - you can be oversteering through a corner while at the same time the front end is plowing straight ahead lol. Just a joy to drive.

But no, I haven't noticed any problem with unrealistic understeer.

 

[RC45]

1 question for all the "these cars suck they are unrealistic they understeer like mofos" people.

How many times have you:

a) driven a family sedan on family car tyres fast on the neighbourhood streets? I mean really fast? 100km/h/60mph around the 90 degree corners fast?

b) driven the same family sedan on family car tyres fast at a race track?

c) driven a moderately fast sports sedan/sports car on STREET sedan tyres fast on the neighbourhood streets? I mean really fast? 100km/h/60mph around the 90 degree corners fast?

d) driven a moderately fast sports sedan/sports car on STREET sedan tyres fast on a race track?

e) driven a high performance street sports car on street performance tyres fast on the neighbourhood streets? I mean really fast? 100km/h/60mph around the 90 degree corners fast?

f) driven a high performance street sports car on street performance tyres fast on a race track?

and finally

g) driven a high performance street sports car on barely street legal super sticky track orientated tyres fast on the neighbourhood streets? I mean really fast? 100km/h/60mph around the 90 degree corners fast?

h) driven a high performance street sports car on barely street legal super sticky track orientated tyres fast on a race track?

??

In only 1 scenario above does the vehicle NOT understeer. Care to guess which one it is? Scenario h). In all other cases the car when pushed hard will undertseer to some degree.

Folks, the only way a NON-race car will NOT understeer is if you drive the damn thing slowly or you have sticky tyres on it on a RACE track.

No grip means no grip - doesnt matter how you arrive at the situtation it is still no grip. You people are ALL entering corners in game at speeds MUCH faster tahn you would in the real life situation and blaming accurate game engine behaviour on "bad physics" - no the "physics" is good, you are just providing the "input speed" to the algorithm being used that gives you a result you dont like - you may not like the result, "understeer", but it is accurate.

Slow down and the understeering goes away... Now isnt that interesting

 

[InSight]

Ive got massive amounts of understeer in my Lancia Delta rally car on tarmac, works a treat on snow and dirt, even feels like it has more grip on those two than it does on tarmac, playing with the lsd to trying and sort it out but getting no where

Lancia is **** in this game, buy impreza instead. I've tried torque distribution, downforce and brake distribution to move it all to the back end, but it was still too slow.

 

[Anes]

snip

Nice post. Would you believe me if I said all of the above? I'll pm you something.

So we are all clear here, the only road legal tyres in GT5 are the comforts. The sports tyres are semi slick tyres.

 

[Stotty]

All cars in GT5 have by default +0.00 degrees front toe and +0.20 degrees rear toe.
This includes racing cars too. This will cause understeer and general straight line stability, something that sports cars or better, race cars, strive to avoid.
Also, strangely camber is most of the time way off. Most cars in GT5 have zero camber on both front and rear axles. Some racing cars have a small amount of camber, but again that's usually way below what should normally considered normal for these cars.

I believe that PD have set up all cars for stability to appeal to a wider public.
You can check out default suspension alignment values by purchasing in the game any suspension kit. Once you do, you can check the default values of stock suspensions.
Personally I believe it's a serious problem, as this implies that most cars do not handle like they are suppose to do.

Absolutely spot on 👍

The cars all come with +0.20 rear toe, which you can see as soon as you fit fully adjustable suspension. So much rear toe makes the cars very stable, but ultimately will make them understeer. You only really need big +ve rear toe numbers on cars with very high levels of lift-off oversteer (some MR cars).

In addition, non-racing cars come with 0 negative camber, and racing cars only very low negative camber levels.

Clearly the game has been set up like this to make it accessible to the ordinary gamer... but you can fix this relatively easily...

Put fully adjustable suspension on the car, reduce the rear toe to +0.05, add -0.05 front toe, set the camber to something like -1.8f -1.2r you'll have a good starting point. After that, you can play with these setting and the ARBs (anti roll bars)... soften the front or stiffen then rear to reduce understeer.

In addition, make sure you're not trying to push the front end too hard going in to the corners... or the car will understeer as in real life.

EDIT...

RC45... spot on too... Slow your entry speed and you will not understeer 👍

 

[NOS Waster]

I've noticed this a little. I guess it's time to go purchasing racing suspensions for my cars and tuning the handling.
However, i have noticed that a lot of the 1990's subaru WRX's LOVE to snap-oversteer. They are just so unstable.
I guess when i get home on the 17th, i will grind some credits and tune my babies. (WRX's, Evos, Skylines)

 

[RobGT81]

Lancia is **** in this game, buy impreza instead. I've tried torque distribution, downforce and brake distribution to move it all to the back end, but it was still too slow.

Yeah me too mate, cant get my head round it. I think I might just be trying to drive it too fast but still think theres something im missing, I destroyed the AI on snow with, but had to go back to the Impreza wrc for the gravel and tarmac stages. grr. Ill work on the Delta when I have a bit more time, theres got to be a way to tame the beast

 

[Stotty]

At the moment the game is new... people are jumping in and out of cars and hoping the car handles spot on out of the box... most don't.

You need to spend a little time tuning them or you need to adjust your driving style accordingly.

The only cars I've driven so far that understeered badly are the 69 Camero (race tuned) and the 07 Cooper S Mini. Personally, I've found GT5 allows a lot more controllable oversteer than GT5P... the balance point seems much easier to find in this version of the game (at least it does on sports hard or comfort tyres - much harder on race tyres, but that's the way it should be).