GT Sport's New Time Trial Mode Immediately Plagued By Cheating

160
Scotland
Scotland
Imac_heb
Why on earth would you want bans for people who simply did what the game allowed them to do - It's not as if this tactic was secret, and was open for all to give it a try. Sure it's not in the spirit of the game, but really the blame for this lies not with the people who did it, but with PD who left this massive hole in the track.

It's not really cheating if the game allows everybody to do it. What I would define as cheating is if somebody modified or augmented the game to get the upper hand, much like those "aimbots" that plagued FPS games for some time. in such a case an online ban would be justified, but for this absolutely not.
Following this logic would mean that popping the ball in your pocket and carrying it to the hole is not really cheating at golf. I mean, it’s possible..... and everybody can do it if they want.....

Of course it’s cheating. The object of the challenge is to go around the track, not the bit beside it.
 
1,214
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
breeminator
breeminator
Following this logic would mean that popping the ball in your pocket and carrying it to the hole is not really cheating at golf. I mean, it’s possible..... and everybody can do it if they want.....
The difference is that is against the rules in golf, so you can't do it without penalty if witnessed and reported. OTOH in GTS, the game is the sole enforcer, so if the game says it's fine, it's fine.
 
152
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Mexico
The difference is that is against the rules in golf, so you can't do it without penalty if witnessed and reported. OTOH in GTS, the game is the sole enforcer, so if the game says it's fine, it's fine.
I love these comments, we all know that that does not go with the rules but there are still people making arguments without credibility.
The game fails to execute them, it's not that they don't exist.
 
1,214
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United Kingdom
breeminator
breeminator
I love these comments, we all know that that does not go with the rules but there are still people making arguments without credibility.
The game fails to execute them, it's not that they don't exist.
Where is the rule that people were breaking? What does it say?

And having been witnessed and reported, times have been disallowed and barriers put up, so again that would suggest it was cheating.
Everyone's times were disallowed, so by your logic, everyone was cheating. There was no action taken that differentiated between those who had used the fastest available route and those who didn't.
 
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160
Scotland
Scotland
Imac_heb
Clue is in the name mate. It is a time trail. The definition of a time trial is “a test of a competitor's individual speed over a set distance, in which competitors are separately timed”. If you take a short cut then you are not completing the set distance.

Ok, so you are of the “it’s only a crime if you are caught” type of opinion. I disagree with that view. It was cheating.
The removal of all times was due to a hasty reset of the challenge being the quickest fix.
 
1,214
United Kingdom
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breeminator
breeminator
Ok, so you are of the “it’s only a crime if you are caught” type of opinion.
Not at all. In your golf example it would be cheating whether they were caught or not. I just disagree that driving the fastest permitted line around the track is cheating, unless someone can point me at a rule that was broken.
 
160
Scotland
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Imac_heb
Not at all. In your golf example it would be cheating whether they were caught or not. I just disagree that driving the fastest permitted line around the track is cheating, unless someone can point me at a rule that was broken.
A time trial is always over a set distance. The shortest possible route would be orienteering..... That’s usually cross-country as well.
 
152
Mexico
Mexico
Not at all. In your golf example it would be cheating whether they were caught or not. I just disagree that driving the fastest permitted line around the track is cheating, unless someone can point me at a rule that was broken.

XD

In football, if a player touches the ball with his hand, it is a foul and goes with the rules, which sometimes fails the referendum does not mean that this rule has not been broken, there was simply a failure in its application.
God is so absurd to discuss this.
 
1,465
Germany
Ludwigsburg, Germany
RocketJoe1-61
I want to bring out a toast to all them involved gamers with their unbelievable dedication and creativity on their hunt for loopholes, glitches, bugs and the likes.
Everyone ought to be thankful for their heroic deeds such as
- showing PD and the world what a mess Gran Turismo is - thank you, we wouldn't know without you !
- giving every serious sim racer a reality check - never forget, it's just a game, just a game !
- lifting GTS to another level of depth - thank you, me nincompoop thought it was nothing but circuit racing !

I just decided to take you guys as an inspiration ... and I've already got a first result.
Tomorrow I'll be going to try this :

IMG_0584.JPG


A toast ! :cheers:
 
129
United Kingdom
Here
Not at all. In your golf example it would be cheating whether they were caught or not. I just disagree that driving the fastest permitted line around the track is cheating, unless someone can point me at a rule that was broken.

you have answered your own question: the track is tarmac with kerbs at both sides, grass, dirt etc... are not the track unless it's rally track.

ps: a bug or exploit is not a permitted line is it? no so please stop trying to make it so, you know it's wrong (because you say it should be fixed) and so do the others who used it but again no ettiqutte or morals allows the use of an exploit/bug in a sim just to gain a time you know you can never achieve by driving the proper way, on a track.
 

user3392345

(Banned)
702
Antarctica
Antarctica
With proper rules, like in any other racing game, where tracktime dosnt count if you left track with more than 2 tyres, the laptime dosnt count. Here in GT-s you can drive like a idiot and still get a valid laptime.

That cutters are wimps, small ego´s and loosers. Just ban them, done.
 
1,840
Australia
Australia
Decepticon 47
Simple rule who ever exploits a glitch when it comes to online races or whatever multiplayer game it is you are a cheater no excuses.

But but its the games fault dont cut it every game has glitches or bugs doesnt mean you use it to your advantage.

Offline play is different do whatever you want just dont bring that stuff online.
 
1,214
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breeminator
breeminator
you have answered your own question: the track is tarmac with kerbs at both sides, grass, dirt etc... are not the track unless it's rally track.

ps: a bug or exploit is not a permitted line is it? no so please stop trying to make it so, you know it's wrong (because you say it should be fixed) and so do the others who used it but again no ettiqutte or morals allows the use of an exploit/bug in a sim just to gain a time you know you can never achieve by driving the proper way, on a track.
Is there a rule anywhere that states that you must remain on the track? I know that in real world racing it is a violation to intentionally leave the track, but is it in GTS?

The reason I described it as a permitted line is because the game permitted it. People crossed the line, and the game recorded it as a valid lap time.

I've looked at several definitions of "cheating", and they are based on gaining an unfair advantage. But there was no unfair advantage gained here, because everyone was free to use the same line, and as far as I can see would not be breaking any rule by doing so, and would not receive any penalty or sanction, so if anyone was at a disadvantage, it was purely due to their own choice to not take the fastest line. It's not analogous to the examples given from golf and football, because in those cases a rule prohibits the behaviour mentioned. I'm happy to change my view on this if someone points me at a rule that was being broken in GTS.
 
1,214
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United Kingdom
breeminator
breeminator
Okay, I just did a search of the PSN terms and conditions for a few words, and found this:

"You may not cheat, exploit or use any bugs, glitches, vulnerabilities or unintentional game mechanics in PSN Services or any of its products or services to obtain an unfair advantage."

Is GTS a product or service of PSN? I know this may seem pedantic to ask, but it doesn't seem 100% clear to me that it is. The Sport Mode terms and conditions refer to the PSN terms and conditions, but don't make a similar mention of "unintentional game mechanics".

If it instead said "You may not cheat, exploit or use any bugs, glitches, vulnerabilities or unintentional game mechanics in PSN Services or any products or services that interact with it to obtain an unfair advantage.", then it would be clear to me that it covered an unintentional game mechanic in GTS. But the wording as it stands doesn't make it clear to me that GTS is subordinate to PSN, i.e. is a product or service of PSN, it seems more the other way round, that PSN is a service that GTS uses.

The reason it's important that the justification of calling people cheats is rock solid is they could pursue a libel case, and under UK law, the burden of proof would be on the people calling them cheats to prove their statement. So before I join in with the potentially libellous use of language, I'd like to be 100% sure that I can prove my case in court if required to do so.
 
1,465
Germany
Ludwigsburg, Germany
RocketJoe1-61
Is there a rule anywhere that states that you must remain on the track? ...

Yes.

Are you really trying to tell us, you or the other guys do not know what driving a lap on a track means ? Holy !

The event's load screen gives a bit of info what to do there. It says Drive your Super lap and it tells you where to do it. It says Track : Streets of Willow Springs and it even displays a track map.
Have you ever taken a look at that ? If yes, you should have noticed that the track map doesn't show any lines that hint at a possible / allowed short cut.
There's your rules. They're simple, everyone should get that !
 
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160
Scotland
Scotland
Imac_heb
Okay, I just did a search of the PSN terms and conditions for a few words, and found this:

"You may not cheat, exploit or use any bugs, glitches, vulnerabilities or unintentional game mechanics in PSN Services or any of its products or services to obtain an unfair advantage."

Is GTS a product or service of PSN? I know this may seem pedantic to ask, but it doesn't seem 100% clear to me that it is. The Sport Mode terms and conditions refer to the PSN terms and conditions, but don't make a similar mention of "unintentional game mechanics".

If it instead said "You may not cheat, exploit or use any bugs, glitches, vulnerabilities or unintentional game mechanics in PSN Services or any products or services that interact with it to obtain an unfair advantage.", then it would be clear to me that it covered an unintentional game mechanic in GTS. But the wording as it stands doesn't make it clear to me that GTS is subordinate to PSN, i.e. is a product or service of PSN, it seems more the other way round, that PSN is a service that GTS uses.

The reason it's important that the justification of calling people cheats is rock solid is they could pursue a libel case, and under UK law, the burden of proof would be on the people calling them cheats to prove their statement. So before I join in with the potentially libellous use of language, I'd like to be 100% sure that I can prove my case in court if required to do so.
You are playing online on a PSN service, using a PSN account and if you take a short cut during a time trial then you are cheating.
Sue if you wish. Lol
 
1,214
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
breeminator
breeminator
Yes.

Are you really trying to tell us, you or the other guys do not know what driving a lap on a track means ? Holy !

The event's load screen gives a bit of info what to do there. It says Drive your Super lap and it tells you where to do it. It says Track : Streets of Willow Springs and it even displays a track map.
Have you ever taken a look at that ? If yes, you should have noticed that the track map doesn't show any lines that hint at a possible / allowed short cut.
There's your rules. They're simple, everyone should get that !
I don't see those as constituting rules. The GTP article refers to another article, this one:
https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-takes-action-misbehaving-gran-turismo-sport-players/
"It is strictly prohibited to act by improperly modifying game data, misbehaving using malfunctions in the game, or causing inconvenience to other users."
I just want to know where this rule is, such that it is unambiguous that it applies to GTS. I don't see this as being too much to ask.

If there is a clear rule prohibiting such things, then I will be delighted to start reporting any players I see violating that rule.

Sue if you wish. Lol
I can't sue you because you haven't libelled me, as I didn't take part in the time trial. My concern is the opposite one, that people could sue me if I called them a cheat without a proof that would stand up in court.
 
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FoRiZon

(Banned)
8,645
Singapore
Singapore
Lmao pedantic.


There are exploits. PD the game admin didnt want that so they add barriers and reset the leaderboards. Period.

Cheat or just exploit, bannable offense or not, I can't talk much. But atleast this is time trial where there are backup plans. If this happens in sport race where the rank can change without any realistic ways for backup or rank reset to all players in that race, then yes it's definitely cheating and deserves to be banned.
 
1,465
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Ludwigsburg, Germany
RocketJoe1-61
... My concern is the opposite one, that people could sue me if I called them a cheat without a proof that would stand up in court.

If this is your actual background, why don't you say it right away ?
I'm quoting myself :

It's hard to see why, after more than 20 years, Gran Turismo still doesn't have a typed down in-game set of rules
:confused: ...

I'm all for explicit rules. Not that I'd need them for my own driving / racing. Would make sense though to finally have a handle against cheating, whoever might use it !
And last but not least, to save us from discussions like this one. Technocratic waste :irked: !
 
1,695
Australia
Aussie
Tassie_tiger
I don't see those as constituting rules. The GTP article refers to another article, this one:
https://www.gtplanet.net/polyphony-digital-takes-action-misbehaving-gran-turismo-sport-players/
"It is strictly prohibited to act by improperly modifying game data, misbehaving using malfunctions in the game, or causing inconvenience to other users."
I just want to know where this rule is, such that it is unambiguous that it applies to GTS. I don't see this as being too much to ask.

If there is a clear rule prohibiting such things, then I will be delighted to start reporting any players I see violating that rule.
https://www.gran-turismo.com/au/gtsport/news/00_8406534.html
 
2,800
England
England
kilesa4568

Can you remind me what that was for please?

Back on topic... It's funny but every time there's an exploit, the 'is it cheating?' debate crops up.

*Grabs soapbox*...

Using an exploit to gain an advantage over someone else turns the exploit into a cheat.

*Hides soapbox*...

PD are renowned for inadvertently leaving a money making exploit in early versions of the game that early adopters can make full use of. I guess I can be morally adjustable when I need to be...:embarrassed:
 
1,695
Australia
Aussie
Tassie_tiger
It certainly shows that they regard a rule as existing, but they haven't pointed us to the source material. I suspect it is the clause in the PSN terms and conditions that I pasted earlier. It's annoying that clause contains the ambiguity it does when it wouldn't be at all difficult to eliminate it.
I don't understand.
Polyphony Digital design, develop, update, and service the game.
Provided they don't come up with rules and regs. that contradict the ToS of the platform the game is played on, I can't see why they wouldn't have the authority to be able to set any additional rules they deem suitable for their game.

At any rate ...
"10.3.7. do not cheat, exploit or use any bugs, glitches, vulnerabilities or unintentional game mechanics in the Software, the PSN or any of its products to obtain an unfair advantage;"
https://www.playstation.com/en-gb/legal/software-usage-terms/

*Edit*
@breeminator Sorry, I didn't spot that you had already read that in the PSN ToS.
But yes, similar rules are stated in the ToS of Software Use, which GT Sport clearly falls under.

Can you remind me what that was for please? *Snip*
I don't remember any one specific reason being named.
It was around the time when people were reversing backwards into pit-lane at Nurb. though, which meant people were earning lots of Credits very quickly.
So I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't at least part of the reason.
 
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FPV MIC

Premium
3,310
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
I don't understand.
I don't remember any one specific reason being named.
It was around the time when people were reversing backwards into pit-lane at Nurb. though, which meant people were earning lots of Credits very quickly.
So I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't at least part of the reason.
I'm pretty sure the bans were for people using the same reverse trick in online races to win by gaining a lap on the field.