GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Front
  • 5,710 comments
  • 328,424 views
"...even if your a solid I won't buy any other racer than GT and I've managed to brainwash myself super dope..."

:lol:

So true. It's like a theology or something to some of these people. Pretty scary.
 
Front
Information from Team xbox

Suspension

A good place to start when trying to hammer out the feel of a certain car model is to gain an understanding of how its suspension works. There are few car manufacturers with a better grasp on suspension and handling than Ferrari, so it was natural for Forza’s dev team to consult with the makers of those perfect red cars on what is truly important. The first area of importance, and that was touched on in part one, is the physical way in which the suspension mounts to the hub, and ultimately the tire. Certain layouts will allow more camber when torqued into a turn, and some will also gain caster in similar situations. Forza’s team individually modeled each car’s suspension type so that gamers would actually be able to experience the correct feel of the model, even slight changes in alignment depending on how the wheel is situated.

Tires

The other area which inspired our title to the physics and handling segment of Seat Time part 2 is how the physics between tire and pavement have been handled. People always wonder what the single most important aspect of car handling is. Forza’s response to this question is that, without a doubt, it’s the tire, since it is the only part of the car actually in contact with the road. The team spent over a month on the tire model alone, then another two months to tune said model into something they were happy with. Teaming up with Toyo allowed the team access to some very inside information on how cars react with changes in shoes. Forza has been built around the tire model, and what will separate it from the competition. Knowing that tires on high speed autos rely on non-Newtonian physics, this was an immensely difficult but extremely important area to focus upon. Simply put, the more load put on the tire, the more friction that that it will create on the asphalt, but not in a linear fashion. What that means in normalspeak is that, since the tire model is so accurate in Forza, the team didn’t have to dial in the handling characteristics of the cars as much. For instance, the NSX, with its rear weight bias, naturally oversteered when thrown into a corner with Forza tire model applied to its layout. What this means for the gamer is the absolute closest thing to the organic feel of a bunch of cars that most of us will never even be able to sit in, let alone drive. Yes, tire heat and wear have also been considered. Tire pressures will rise with heat individually, which will raise pressure, and thereby change tire friction. This will affect wear and can also cause the handling to be thrown off. Gamers with a clue will know that warming up the tires before a race is a very good idea in Forza.

Skidmarks

Tire marks are left and will stay for the remainder of the race, which is a huge deal since a car will grip rubber much more aggressively when in contact with additional rubber. Dropped oil from a wreck stays as well and will wreak havoc for the remainder of the race since it will be carried about the track

Now how realistic is that....

I'm not bashing the gran turismo series but if I was PD i'd be slightly worried that Microsoft will steal there crown of best Racing sim on console I have no doubt GT4 will be a great game, will it be the greatest racing game from this generation of consoles has yet to be seen...

Forza has so many things going for it right now

Drivetar [AI that learns]
Exotics [Ferrari, Porsche etc...]
Graphics [High Res]
Online [XBox Live]
Pokemon [Cars Limited per Region]
Vehicles on screen [15 compared to 6]
Physics [That have been quoted by many as amazing and unforgiving]
Things GT4 will missed out on [Graphicial Touches Skidmarks, Reverse Lights etc...]

WOW! That is nice to know but I don't drive my "Real" car everyday with a joypad; So unless there is a 900Deg FFB steering wheel, It will never be as good as GT4. While those "E=mc2" technical talk to make the game as realistic as possible are nevertheless beautiful to hear, but playing with a joypad??? I might as well play more GT3 instead. The ONLY thing that I think is really worth mentioning is the "Learning AI" thing.

As far as reverse lights goes, I don't really care if there will be naked Victoria's Secret models spreading their legs when you are in reverse, cause I drive in first person view. BTW, no virtual cup holders??? and they call it realistic. LOL

Forza is better? "Ju nen haiyai da yo!"
 
Wheel or pad, better physics shine though, that's if forzas are as good as they say they are. Not a problem for me as I don't like using wheels on racing games, too smegging expensive, to big, a pain to store.

"Forza is better? "Ju nen haiyai da yo!""

Who knows? You certainly don't.

"As far as reverse lights goes, I don't really care if there will be naked Victoria's Secret models spreading their legs when you are in reverse, cause I drive in first person view. BTW, no virtual cup holders??? and they call it realistic. LOL"

Well in that case, lets get rid of the wheels on the car too, seeing as your drive in first person mode :P. Listen, even half life rally has reverse lights, say what you want, make a joke of it, what ever, but you can not deny it's a stupid thing not to have in. I can only hope that PD see how stupid this ommison is, and include it.
 
I cannot belive people are still falling for all of this supper dupper, AI, Physics bull we hear from every GT wannabe. It may well deliver who knows. I will buy it regardless.

The only thing I can compare Forza to GT4 with, is the graphics. Yeh I know, they tell you very little about how a car handles etc.

What they do tell you however is the attention to detail, and in turn the amount of thought/passion etc. put into other aspects of the game.

GT4, despite lower polygon counts/res etc. takes your breath away. Forza looks like a 3 year old PC game and has a generally cartooney look. :) Not a good start IMO
 
code_kev
Wheel or pad, better physics shine though, that's if forzas are as good as they say they are. Not a problem for me as I don't like using wheels on racing games, too smegging expensive, to big, a pain to store.

QUOTE]

If you don't use a wheel, why give a damn about the physics? :dopey:
 
Jaguar, you have seen the TVR pics right? They are obscene. The game may lack gt4s realism in terms of looks, but it has stuff like skid marks, paint that chips off, damage, interiors, drivers you can see (yes, I know one or two on Gt4 have this, but it hardly counts) skid marks, oil spills, and more, does this stuff mean nothing to you?


Why give a damn, oh don't be such a fool, it's bloody obvious why, the game will feel different depending on physics, even with a pad you can tell when it's realistic or not, the fact that it doesn't have a pretty spinny wheel makes bugger all difference. :P.
 
code_kev
Jaguar, you have seen the TVR pics right? They are obscene. The game may lack gt4s realism in terms of looks, but it has stuff like skid marks, paint that chips off, damage, interiors, drivers you can see (yes, I know one or two on Gt4 have this, but it hardly counts) skid marks, oil spills, and more, does this stuff mean nothing to you?


Why give a damn, oh don't be such a fool, it's bloody obvious why, the game will feel different depending on physics :P.

Absolutely nothing!!!!!!!!!

I will buy GT4/Forza for the driving experience. i couldn't care less about the AI as I drive mostly in time trial mode.

As for the oil etc. it is just a case of adding any extra GT4 does not have in a sad case of one upmanship.

As long as you can drive a Falken Skyline on a perfectly recreated version of the Nordshleife who cares about oil spills, chip marks etc.

As for the 'pretty spinny wheel'. Well isn't that one of the most important aspects of driving a car. :dopey:
 
It should have more cars on the track at once (more than the typical 6) so thats also a plus. One thing I loved about Pro race driver 2/toca 2/wtv was the amount of competing cars on the track at once, with no slowdown. I think it was 21 cars max if I remember correctly.

More of this "passion" stuff. Sheesh, more realistic graphics mean the developer has some kind of passion for awesomeness that burns within it's loins? What a silly comment.
 
kinigitt
More of this "passion" stuff. Sheesh, more realistic graphics mean the developer has some kind of passion for awesomeness that burns within it's loins? What a silly comment.

Yes exactly.

If I was developing such a game I would ensure the cars where 100% correct, right down to the smallest detail.

Developers without this passion will cut corners. If you are a true enthusiast only 100% accuracy is good enough.
 
Jaguar, I love how you try and make features of the game that are better, some how sound crap.

"oh better AI, tsk, I race time trials anyway, Gt4 doesn't need AI!!!"
"TSK damage, who needs damage, I'm too good to get damaged"
"Paint chips, poppy ****!"
"Oil spills, tsk, Gt concentrates on ummm emotion"
"REVERSE LIGHTS! PAh, I don't need those, I only go forwards!"


I love this :D

I'm not saying forza is better, I ain't played either (well I've played Gtp, so I know what Gt4 will play like ish), I'm just saying that it has some really cool stuff in it.
 
Some people obviously have a serious case on Fanboyism...

Now I know it's difficult it's ok there's a game coming out that has addressed many of you're concerns regarding the GT series and has also came up some very inovative features
in the process now this should be a total joy, now here is the problem it wont be made by PD and it's NOT on PS2 !?!?!

Any bad points for Gran Turismo are immeditly fobbed of as part of the master plan or the console is 5 years old yeah Grand Prix Legends is still the benchmark for simulations physics wise and that was released in 1998 !!!!!


Were there any racing games that inspired your team? If so, what were they?

Obviously, the GT series has been a huge influence on this team. Personally speaking, the original Gran Turismo was the only reason I bought my first console. Without that game, several of us probably wouldn't have become involved in this industry. Polyphony has created a great series.

I'm sure you could see the influence of Sega's classic Ferrari 355 coin-op game in our E3 presentation. We have a 355 machine with triple screen set up in the lobby of our office. The Art Lead and I still love to play the old Sportcar GT game for the PC. It was a great blend of simulation and accessible fun. It also had really cool cars and real-world tracks.

A few team members participate in PC online racing sim leagues for Papyrus' Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003. These games have a small but fanatical following. Some of these communities have created third-party telemetry and replay analyser programs as well as huge content mod packs. Recently, one of my buddies showed me an online league based on a version of F1 2004 that was modified to have FIA GT and ALMS cars and tracks. That looked pretty fun…but extremely challenging. These hard-core communities are a better source of inspiration that any game could be.
Forza Dev Interview​

Now the Forza dev's have already said they are great fans of the GT series not hard to see why GT is a great game and always will be a great game :)
 
Fanboyism. Get real, for gods sake!!!!!!!!!!!1

I want a driving simulator. Nothing more, nothing less.

Peripheral nonesense like paint chips!!!!!!!!! holds no interest to me whatsoever.

If anything epitomises fanboyism it is pointing out 'features' like paint chips and oil spills. :dopey:
 
code_kev
Jaguar, I love how you try and make features of the game that are better, some how sound crap.

"oh better AI, tsk, I race time trials anyway, Gt4 doesn't need AI!!!"
"TSK damage, who needs damage, I'm too good to get damaged"
"Paint chips, poppy ****!"
"Oil spills, tsk, Gt concentrates on ummm emotion"
"REVERSE LIGHTS! PAh, I don't need those, I only go forwards!"

That actually made me laugh :)
 
JAGUAR
Yes exactly.

If I was developing such a game I would ensure the cars where 100% correct, right down to the smallest detail.

Developers without this passion will cut corners. If you are a true enthusiast only 100% accuracy is good enough.

oh, cutting corners as in not implementing any small details like REVERSE LIGHTS... hmmm. You're sounding rather contradictory right about now.
 
Ok jaguar, here's the dathings. REAL cars get maged right? Ok, good, see if you drive like an ass in forza, rather then hearing a little "bump", your car gets trashed. ho ho. I am glad game devs don't think like you, because if they did we would still be playing pong.

"oh but why make it 3d, I'm happy with 2d!"


If anything epitomises fanboyism it is pointing out 'features' like paint chips and oil spills

But stuff like that is cool, I like trashing cars. It's the little details like that, that can make a game special, it shows that they are putting effort in to the game.

What epitomes fanboyism imo, is people who try and make features in rival games sound crap, when infact they sound really cool :P
 
So extra bit's shouldn't be added in a game is that right Jaguar, you say you want a driving simulator, Forza IS a driving simulator, if it's as good as GT4 we will have to wait and see, but if it's physics are spot on GT4's, as it stands unless GT4 has some really different tuning options and such compared to past GT's Forza would be the better game, ofcours your not bothered about graphixcs and effects your only bothered about the driving simulation, you don't car that you can bounce off a wall after a 200Mph impact you only care about the driving :dunce:.
 
What is the obsession with REVERSE LIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The improved AI (which GT4 also apparently has btw) is a big issue for some.

Paint chips, oil chips, engine changes and the like are just nonsene extras. Driving games have yeat to master truely realistic handling etc. yet. This should be the focus not pathetic 'Fast and the Furious' type mods.

Crash damage etc. has not been ignored by PD. It is licensing problems and the lack of power on the PS2 (and XBOX) to do true justice to this. A few popping beonnets and generic crash impacts is not good enough I'm afraid.

Whats the betting Forza will be jam packed with the same old genric European supercars and mainstream models as PGR. Will we see some Group 5/B/C race cars, interesting niche models etc. This is what interest me.

I will buy both games, but as a car enthusiast GT4 is the one that excites me. Forza may well be a pleasant suprise, who knows.
 
Jaguar, go out side, look at your car, OH LOOK AT THAT!! It has reverse lights. See, it would take 5 seconds to add em.

Jaguar, those nonsense extras you mentioned ARE PART OF RACING, oil slicks, paint damage, tyres heating up, the fact is our systems simply are not powerful enough to do 100% accurate handling, so they may as well improve games in ways that are do-able.

And please, don't go down the licensing route, we know, you know, PD know, that's bull****, how do you know what the damage is like in forza anyway? You don't, plus you can turn it on or off if it bothers you that much :P

As a game enthusiast and some one who thinks cars are pretty damn ace, I look forwards to anygame that promises as much as this lot does.
 
It's funny how so many people react so harshly to constructive critisism. They just rationalise away all criticisms (some very legitimate) of GT with maddening efficiency, then wail on the other games with unrelenting animosity. They seem to be affected by a crippling fear of change, and instead of fixing past mistakes, seem to embrace them as GT heritage.



Examples in caps illustrate blind stupidity:

There's no damage in the GT series

their response: WHO NEEDS DAMAGE?! IF YOU'RE A GOOD DRIVER YOU DONT CRASH... blah blah blah.

No reverse lights (a mind numbingly stupid little detail):

their response: who cares about reverse lights? I use the bumper cam! I only go forward! Reversing is for arcade games!

The A.I. is dumber than a pile of rocks:

their response: who needs good a.i.? I race on time trial (yeah, too bad the majority of Gran turismo's single player structure, oh i dont know, AROUND 95 PERCENT OF IT REVOLVES AROUND RACING A.I. OPPONENTS or...I race against friends, thats the best a.i.

which brings about the next point...

Xbox live has been proven a superior method of online gaming, and forza will undoubtedly step up to the plate on this aspect:

their response: XBOX LIVE IS TOO EXPENSIVE! I CANT AFFORD 50$ U.S. FOR A YEARS WORTH OF ONLINE GAMING AND DOWNLOADS. I ALSO CAN'T AFFORD EDUCATION, HENCE THE LAME ARGUMENT.

it just goes on and on. Some people can't be reasoned with.
 
code_kev
Jaguar, go out side, look at your car, OH LOOK AT THAT!! It has reverse lights. See, it would take 5 seconds to add em.

:P

So the choice is between a game that has reverse lights and one that lets me drive a Peugeot 205 T16 or Nissan R89C around the Nordschleife. Hmmmm tough choice!

Dynamic crash damage will take huge amounts of processing power, certainly out of the range of current machines. I would sooner wait for a truly realistic damage model.
 
Oh but kinigitt, I only drive forwards, in first person, on time trial, and never online :D :D lol


Jaguar, if they can code brake lights, I'm sure they can spend 5 seconds and add a pretty white lighting element to the cars, just to make me, and anyone else who EVER goes backwards happy.

Hey, I'll even code it for them.


if(gear == reverse)
{
revLight=true;
}

if(gear != reverse)
{
revLight=false;
}

:)
 
JAGUAR this is you "a solid GT is da best and I've managed to brainwash myself super dope. Saying the paint chips are a nonsence extra is one thing but saying the advanced tuning options like the engin swaps are too is just idiotic. As for the damage is not a licensing problem for PD, KY has said the PS2 couldn't handle doing damage in GT4 at the level he would want it., and you say a "A few popping beonnets and generic crash impacts is not good enough I'm afraid." Well Forza's is more than that it's proper car damage that also affects your performance. I can gaurentee that if all these so called nonsence extras were in GT4 you'd be raving on about how much GT4 needs them and how much better they make the game. You can't say GT4 is so good because of the attention to detail and then when another game comes along with just as much in not more say it's nonsence or over the top ect.
 
JAGUAR
Whats the betting Forza will be jam packed with the same old genric European supercars.

What's genric? If you mean generic then that statement makes no sense. A supercar is anything but generic. Now toyota vit's and voltswagin beetle's are generic.
 
Maybe by generic he meant they all are for the most part quicker, better looking and more exciting? I mean why couldn't Europe make some really crappy supercars so that they wouldn't all be so generic.
 
live4speed
JAGUAR this is you " a solid I won't buy any other racer than GT and I've managed to brainwash myself super dope". Saying the paint chips are a nonsence extra is one thing but saying the advanced tuning options like the engin swaps are too is just idiotic. As for the damage is not a licensing problem for PD, KY has said the PS2 couldn't handle doing damage in GT4 at the level he would want it., and you say a "A few popping beonnets and generic crash impacts is not good enough I'm afraid." Well Forza's is more than that it's proper car damage that also affects your performance. I can gaurentee that if all these so called nonsence extras were in GT4 you'd be raving on about how much GT4 needs them and how much better they make the game. You can't say GT4 is so good because of the attention to detail and then when another game comes along with just as much in not more say it's nonsence or over the top ect.


Well I will be buying GT4, Forza, Enthusia, GTR. Does that make me a GT4 fanboy?

The engine swap epitomises the bull**** extras that Forza is using to get one up on GT4. Who the hell swaps engines in real life????

Why are the Forza development team implementing paint chips and the like when they are still quite plainly light years behind PD when it comes to producing realistic looking cars and tracks, despite having theorectically more powefull hardware.

I have no doubt Forza will have damage that also affects the car performance. I also have no doubt that it will be a shadow of what is going to be possible on the next generation machines. Why even attempt something that will not be upto to standard.
 
The engine swap epitomises the bull**** extras that Forza is using to get one up on GT4. Who the hell swaps engines in real life????

People who want to make little cars go at stupid speeds. Iv'e met people who have done this before.

AHHH jaguar, I see now, it all comes down to graphics, can't say I'm supprised. TBH I thought forza looked quite pretty.

I can't believe he used "generic" and "super cars" in the same sentance, with out including "are not".
 
The irony of the statement is crushing.

Anyway, I also don't get how people dismiss aesthetic tuning options as a passing fancy. When I watch touring cup races, the cars usually look, well, drastically different than their stock counterparts due to aerodynamics modification as well as race team logos, sponsors and custom paint jobs. Unless we're talking about showroom stock races, aero parts due factor largely into motorsports. Yet people's reactions to Forza's tuning system are to immediately compare it to NFSU.

I blame microsoft for featuring that HIDEOUS SRT-4 in the promo trailer. If they had shown a more subtle, form-follows-function car, maybe people wouldn't be so quick to pull out the ole "ITS GONNA BE LIKE NFSU!!1" baloney.
 
xcsti
What's genric? If you mean generic then that statement makes no sense. A supercar is anything but generic. Now toyota vit's and voltswagin beetle's are generic.


I mean 'generic' in that haven't we already driven these types of cars since the dawn of time from Outrun onwards.

The reason the GT series appeals to so many car enthusiasts is becuase, along with your 'generic' supercars (albeit no Ferrari/Porsche) you also have dream cars like the 205 T16, Sauber Mercedes C9, Renault 5 Turbo, Group A DTM cars etc. that I very much doubt Forza will include.
 
But jaguar, forza has cars like this, and they can be tuned, changed, upgraded, painted, smashed etc. I as a racing game fan, think that stuff like this is a step in the right direction.
 
I have no doubt Forza will have damage that also affects the car performance. I also have no doubt that it will be a shadow of what is going to be possible on the next generation machines. Why even attempt something that will not be upto to standard.

Then why create anything, why model car's in Gran Turismo when there not accurate 2D Rims and no reverse lights....

Game's NEED to progress and push the boundries Forza is Trying and that's what makes me take notice !

Engine Swaps, Dynamic Tracks, Damage, AI that Learns I know these are all scary statements for a GT fanboy, but it's progress unlike GT :)
 

Latest Posts

Back