GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Front
  • 5,710 comments
  • 328,662 views
Well...sales mean version 2, version 3 etc because the software houses are in it for money. But I do know what you are saying. Vice City is the best selling PS2 game at 16million units and I love it! ( can't wait for GTA:SA btw it has damage simulation ;) )

I was talking about sales in the racing genre, but a game is a game after all.

Quality and Innovation is what everyone wants, but if it doesn't sell, it disappears :(

Betamax recorders (superior quality to VHS), Sinclair C5 (very innovative) etc.
 
Earth
When I think of Enthusia I think of Driving Emotion Type-S...that is the reason for so much negative assumptions

quite ironic that you go on to compare konami and squaresoft in a later post, when it was in fact an escape developed racing game published by squaresoft.

edited because i was being an ass
 
Tacet_Blue
Well...sales mean version 2, version 3 etc because the software houses are in it for money. But I do know what you are saying. Vice City is the best selling PS2 game at 16million units and I love it! ( can't wait for GTA:SA btw it has damage simulation ;) )

I was talking about sales in the racing genre, but a game is a game after all.

Quality and Innovation is what everyone wants, but if it doesn't sell, it disappears :(

Betamax recorders (superior quality to VHS), Sinclair C5 (very innovative) etc.

don't forget sega
 
Earth
Just watched the corvette and TOYOTA gt1 video

Thoughts on vette video is , really, nothing. Just heard the guy said damage will affect handling. Yeah everygame with damage affects handling. sort of expected that. I want to know if it affects toe etc, and thats how it affects handling. i wonder.

thoughts on the GT1 video is, well its poor qualifty, so i cant see the graphics right. again, nothing to ooo or awww about. replay cameras are put in wrong position alot of the time. would be pretty hard to follow more then one car on track. again, very dull.

not to mention both the cars seemed to break loose and get sideways on almost every turn...a no no for a uber sim

this coming from the guy who deleted the GTR demo after trying (failing?) to complete one lap.

perhaps the cars are all breaking loose because it is a TRAILER for MARKETING PURPOSES put out for E3 audiences (read: idiots). People like to see cars powersliding for dramatic purposes. Microsoft is in charge of marketing. Microsoft wants people to buy forza. Microsoft shows clips of cars powersliding. Duh.

Game publishers always put out over-ther-top music-video-like game trailers to woo the short-attention-spanned general public. I would not judge a game by a trailer.

It could suck tremendously. I havent played it.

But from what I've seen, I doubt microsoft would make as many claims about realistic physics if that wasnt the general slant of the game.

A couple e3 videos just arent enough to render judgement.
 
i saw the mini vid on the enthusia site comparing the physics. It looks like a pretty cool game. I'm downloading the high rez vid via bit torrent directly from some host at uh.. WOW!!! 154KBPS!!!!
 
Well I have watched all the vids and they both look great. Although Forza's models look like they are plastic dipped, and I don't like the way the cars move as compared with the vids from GT4, there better be some real upgrades from the GT4P in order for it to be the "real driving simulator". Im not going to pretend, Im going to get GT4 and love it more than anyother racing game ever,but because I have a X-box I will probably go and pick up Forza. Yes I have some problems with the car "shine" but it is still a game with breathtaking graphics and a presentation that appears to be better than GT4. It might not be up to GT4's standards yet (opinion held alot around here....duhh!) but I think that the things you can do with the X-box farexceed the possiblities with PS2 so give it time and I think we will really see 2 of the best driving games ever.
 
Zer0
OPM was the first explaining a real situation example of the upgraded physics, maybe this new build it's more evident than ever I don´t know, but the updated physics are related in many more articles and people impressions since the first playable demo builds at E3 2003 to now:

"It doesn't take rocket scientist to know that the physics have been tweaked to near perfection. Even the pre-Beta build we tested at E3 started to feel worlds apart from the initial build we played at E3 2003."
Source.
KY said in many interviews that the game is constantly work in progress in all the aspects, including physics, and when GT4P was out said that his physics not are the definitive of the final build.
lol, that's also the reason why I was dissapointed in GT4p. I heared things like: "woah, way more challenging" "you thought you could handle a 600bhp powered beast? in gt4p you can't!"
Damn, and I bought GT4p.. I'm still able to drive those monsters like I'm the best racer in the world.
Hmm.. what I really want to hear are the things OPM wrote in their last issue. They really explained what went wrong in the race and all.. If I see a independent magazine write something like "from now on you can't just smash the throttle and easily correct the oversteer in your 600bhp car" I'll be happy.
Zer0
Before your register in this forum you follow the news about GT4? all this are old news, you thought that GT4P arcade mode would be the same as finished GT4 simulation mode in realism?, it´s the same as AI, expect a very important upgrade in the final build, both aspects now have a very important priority in the GT4.
Yes I followed all the news. I did not think that GT4P arcade mode would be the same as finished GT4 simulation mode in realism. :| What I did say was that I'm worried about the final GT4 being too much (easy) like GT4p.


Zer0
Yep, I expect that in the final GT4 it can disable all the assist with a Pro handling mode or a selectable option on a DS2 or any wheel and not only with the DFP.
My point was that, me as a rookie, shouldn't be able to drift a Mclaren F1 GTR like that.. EVEN WITH THE WHEEL CORRECTION.


Zer0
Where you heard that Forza was more challenging? played with pad or wheel? more than GT4 E3 demo with DFP and without assists or don´t known? what do you mean for challenging? realistic or difficult? because playing a game without assists and a loose cheap wheel could be very challenging. :P
The wheel has absolutely nothing to do with it. With realistic I mean that you can't control a Mclaren F1 GTR while smashing the gas at slow speed UNLIKE you can in GT4p. Get it? I know that the final GT4 simulation mode will be harder and more realistic than GT4p, but I'm still worried that the cars will be far too easy to control. I'm not saying they will be.
I know you posted the IGN preview earlier, but this is exactly my point:

IGN
Where games like RalliSport Challenge and Project Gotham Racing have a strong arcade feel to them, Forza places its emphasis on realism. This is one of the most accurate physics models we have ever seen in a racing game, even beating out GT. But this high degree of realism brings a high degree of difficulty. Sim fans will love it, but fans of arcade-style racers will curse with frustration. And they will curse often.
"Hop in the Ferrari Enzo and mash on the throttle, and the extreme torque will cause the car to be damn near uncontrollable--forcing it to crash into a wall. This may not sound like fun, but this would be the same result should you try this in real-life. As we said, this game takes accuracy to the extreme."

I don't hear things like that about GT4.. Do you understand why I get worried?

Edit:

McLaren F1GTR
What's so special is that its about the first game that even comes close, and is similiar in about every way, and equals alot of GT4s details. Enthusia is a promising game, and I know it will turn out to be GT4s closest competitor.
Yeah but why place it above GT4 on your wishlist? :o
 
'My point was that, me as a rookie, shouldn't be able to drift a Mclaren F1 GTR like that.. EVEN WITH THE WHEEL CORRECTION'

After months of playing GT4P I am still unable to drift an F1 GTR!

Watch an in car video of a sportscar and there is huge amounts of wheel correction at all times. From the outside the car still appears glued to the circuit.
 
And on a similar note... try taking an F1 round Tsukuba without TCS and Driver Aids mashing the throttle in the turns and seeing if you don't end up on the grass...

I reckon you will be ending up pointing backwards faster than you can say "I can control a drift"

C.
 
kinigitt
Sales mean squat. Grand theft auto vice city is the "gt killer" if that's your line of reasoning.

The only Gt killer as far as I'm concerned is a game that manages to raise the bar on quality and innovation.

Who's to say that GT4 will not be the one that raises the bar.

One things for sure, we have seen only a fraction of what GT4 will contain in its final form.
 
JAGUAR
Watch an in car video of a sportscar and there is huge amounts of wheel correction at all times. From the outside the car still appears glued to the circuit.

In-car 956 by Duke video would be a good one to go for, constant correction, particularly around the 'ring.

As Yeti says the F1 GTR will try and spin if you mash the throttle out of any 1st or 2nd gear corner if you have all the aids turned off. Damn thing wants to kill you at every turn, thats what makes it so satisfying when you get a good lap-time with it.

The 10 lap F1 GTR test is still the best lesson of the lot on GT4P (IMHO).

If you find the car easy to control and drift, you either need to switch of the aids or are a lot better at driving than you think!!!!!


One thing I have found is that with the higher power cars its harder to drive with a wheel than a DS2, more to do under hard braking, high speed straight line stability, etc. I still get better times with the wheel and its a damn sight more fun too. The wheel I find easier that DS2 on the rally stages however; easier to left foot brake.
 
I take it you mean "left foot brake" in the traditional sense (Braking and accelerating at the same time) cos I would imagine that all gamers would physically left foot brake?

That ten lapper was hard when you first tried it, tense when you first completed it... and great when you nail the gold...

C.
 
code_kev
Oh this is funny, nothing like pretending a game looks crap eh guys! Lets be honest, those vids looked good. The simple fact is, no matter how greta forza looks, alot of you would just shoot it down simply because it's not called gran turismo. You get this on both sides of the camp, there are actually people who think Gt4 looks crap too...



REMEMBER GUYS! Low res textures look better!!!! This is the kind of poster I hate, a rabid little fanboy, who talks nothing but utter crap. Then at the end he says both games look great, even after ripping forza apart, I mean what's the deal with that? And what about the guy moaning that the car was damaged when the vid started, did it ever occur to him that mehbeh they started filming AFTER he pranged the car? IDIOT.

btw Enthusia screenies look good.

'Prentending'!

Those videos look neat but nothing special, compared to say teh Falken Skyline video.

Regrding the graphics, the fact is GT4 looks, far, far more realistic than Forza. Forza has some technical advantages, but the developers, at this point, have not used the power to produce a more realistic looking game. This may all change however.
 
Scaff
One thing I have found is that with the higher power cars its harder to drive with a wheel than a DS2, more to do under hard braking, high speed straight line stability, etc. I still get better times with the wheel and its a damn sight more fun too. The wheel I find easier that DS2 on the rally stages however; easier to left foot brake.

I'm still using the wheel, but I can only drive using left foot braking. The pedals are too damn small just wearing socks. It feels so un-natural and it messed me up when I drove straight after. I braked with my left foot and braked a little too hard locking up my brakes. Thank god nobody was behind me at the time though.
 
JAGUAR
Who's to say that GT4 will not be the one that raises the bar.

One things for sure, we have seen only a fraction of what GT4 will contain in its final form.

Im pretty sure we will all be astounded with GT4 Additional elements.

PD have pretty much locked down every piece of info on this game.
They released Prologue as a teaser.
Already we know that the sound has been Advanced since then,
The Graphics have been advanced, the physics engine has been advanced.
The new AI engine was not implemented in GT4P, Supposedly a completely new Engine will feature for GT4.
We have been fed a red herring IMO with the Photo Mode, Just released info for this to give the journos something to talk about while they keep the Meat of the game securely locked away in the vaults of PD.
They released playable (In Demo form) the best circuit in the world, so imagine what track line up they are holding back.
I think 500 cars is likely to ratchet up to somewhere near 800 especially with cars featuring from 80 manufacturers over 100 years.
We already seen about 250 and they were mostly without any model variations.

We have not heard a sniffle about the Tuning, except that Branded 3rd partys are likely to feature, Nothing much about events, Pit stops e.t.c.

PD have kept info on this game so quiet.
To keep the advancements under wraps, and to blow us all a way when its finally released.
IMO of course.
 
JAGUAR
'My point was that, me as a rookie, shouldn't be able to drift a Mclaren F1 GTR like that.. EVEN WITH THE WHEEL CORRECTION'

After months of playing GT4P I am still unable to drift an F1 GTR!

Watch an in car video of a sportscar and there is huge amounts of wheel correction at all times. From the outside the car still appears glued to the circuit.

Ah come on, don't try to defend the way a Mclaren F1 GTR is controllable in GT4p. It's unrealistic as hell. It's arcade mode with arcade tyres. And with wheel correction I meant the driving aid when you use a DS2, you know, when you want to do a burn-out but your wheels get straightened.
 
yeti
I take it you mean "left foot brake" in the traditional sense (Braking and accelerating at the same time) cos I would imagine that all gamers would physically left foot brake?

That ten lapper was hard when you first tried it, tense when you first completed it... and great when you nail the gold...

C.

Spot on with the 'left-foot' braking.

Lost count of the number of times I put the F1 off the track going for gold on that one.
 
Scaff
In-car 956 by Duke video would be a good one to go for, constant correction, particularly around the 'ring.

As Yeti says the F1 GTR will try and spin if you mash the throttle out of any 1st or 2nd gear corner if you have all the aids turned off. Damn thing wants to kill you at every turn, thats what makes it so satisfying when you get a good lap-time with it.

The 10 lap F1 GTR test is still the best lesson of the lot on GT4P (IMHO).

If you find the car easy to control and drift, you either need to switch of the aids or are a lot better at driving than you think!!!!!


One thing I have found is that with the higher power cars its harder to drive with a wheel than a DS2, more to do under hard braking, high speed straight line stability, etc. I still get better times with the wheel and its a damn sight more fun too. The wheel I find easier that DS2 on the rally stages however; easier to left foot brake.


In-Car 956 is a great DVD.

I was at Silverstone the other week to watch the LMES series. Through Bridge you could see right into the cockpit of the Zytek LMP1 car. The amount of wheel correction was unreal through such a quick corner. You would imagine the car would go flying off the track, but infact it was glued to the circuit.

Regrding the tires, there is a huge amount of difference in the grip given by different race compound tires, even in GT3. GT4 will have an even geater selection.

The 'race' tires in GT4P are more like one lap qualifying tires. With these tires you get far, far more grip.
 
Pak
Ah come on, don't try to defend the way a Mclaren F1 GTR is controllable in GT4p. It's unrealistic as hell. It's arcade mode with arcade tyres. And with wheel correction I meant the driving aid when you use a DS2, you know, when you want to do a burn-out but your wheels get straightened.

I have never used the DS2 in GT4P. ALL of the steering aids are swiched off when you use the DFP. If you turn hard left/right on the straight you will go careering off into the barrirer (using DFP), not gently drift to the side of the track as in GT3.

Using the wheel you can do burnouts till your hearts content. :)
 
JAGUAR
I have never used the DS2 in GT4P. ALL of the steering aids are swich off when you use the DFP. If you turn hard left/right on the straight you will go careering into the barrirer, not gently drift to the side of the track as in GT3.

I know that, I was only explaining what I meant with wheel correction.
But eh, I can still drift/powerslide a McLaren F1 GTR through slow corners.
Why do you think OPM said that the latest build of GT4 is a completely new game, no comparison with GT4p. 'GT4 has gone hardcore' They wouldn't say that if GT4p is so realistic.
 
Pak
I know that, I was only explaining what I meant with wheel correction.
But eh, I can still drift/powerslide a McLaren F1 GTR through slow corners.
Why do you think OPM said that the latest build of GT4 is a completely new game, no comparison with GT4p. 'GT4 has gone hardcore' They wouldn't say that if GT4p is so realistic.

Ok, didn't realise that.

BTW, I have camcorder footage of both the Vitaphone Saleen S7R and Larbre 550 'drifting' huge amounts through the slow corners around the complex at Silverstone.
 
JAGUAR
Ok, didn't realise that.

BTW, I have camcorder footage of both the Vitaphone Saleen S7R and Larbre 550 'drifting' huge amounts through the slow corners around the complex at Silverstone.
No problem. :)
Cool, I would like to see those vids. But eh those cars drifting doesn't mean I can do it :) And certainly not with just ramming the throttle and correcting a bit. Btw I sometimes slide the whole Eau Rouge in GTR, but I gotta have luck to pull that trick. :P It always happens by accident and I usually end up crashing at full speed.
 
Pak
Ah come on, don't try to defend the way a Mclaren F1 GTR is controllable in GT4p. It's unrealistic as hell. It's arcade mode with arcade tyres. And with wheel correction I meant the driving aid when you use a DS2, you know, when you want to do a burn-out but your wheels get straightened.

Dont use a DS2 thats not realistic at all, how many times you seen a driver in the cockpit with a joypad and not a wheel.

THE DFP is the only way to fully experience the physics engine.

There is no slow steering assist, and the Feedback action, when the car is unsettled, is transfered through the steering wheel angle and this in turn then effects the car in the game (its a cycle of the physics engine to simulate wieght transfer, grip and control, and is only available with the DFP), and unless you have very good reactions you will lose control quite easily.
With the DS2 this can never be simulated because there is no feedback, so all the while you hold the stick left your wheels point left, let it centre your wheels are straight this is the fundamental difference in playing with The Wheel.

If you drive on a rumble strip with the DS the pad vibrates, you wheels remain straight, if you mount the curb in a turn you can hold onto the curb holding the sticks in the same position.
With the DFP the wheel shakes, moving the car slightly, if you mount the curb in a turn, the feedback in the wheel changes the position of the wheel to simulate what would happen in real life it is then up to you to correct.

With the DFP the GTR cannot be controlled easily as you describe, mashing accelerator mid turn would see you off every time, it has to be caressed, and if you mount the curbs with it you are asking for loads of trouble.

If you want the realistic experience with GT4 you are simply going to have to give up You DS and get a wheel, No game pad without any sort of reactive feedback will ever be able to give as realistic a driving experience as you require.
 
JAGUAR
Who's to say that GT4 will not be the one that raises the bar.

One things for sure, we have seen only a fraction of what GT4 will contain in its final form.

Not me that's for sure. I'm quite confident that it will. That wasn't the point of my previous statement.

That's exactly true.



On a sidenote, why are people still talking about graphics?

GT4>FORZA in terms of REALISTIC graphics. A simple truth.

Let's move it along.
 
GTXLR
Dont use a DS2 thats not realistic at all, how many times you seen a driver in the cockpit with a joypad and not a wheel.

THE DFP is the only way to fully experience the physics engine.

There is no slow steering assist, and the Feedback action, when the car is unsettled, is transfered through the steering wheel angle and this in turn then effects the car in the game (its a cycle of the physics engine to simulate wieght transfer, grip and control, and is only available with the DFP), and unless you have very good reactions you will lose control quite easily.
With the DS2 this can never be simulated because there is no feedback, so all the while you hold the stick left your wheels point left, let it centre your wheels are straight this is the fundamental difference in playing with The Wheel.

If you drive on a rumble strip with the DS the pad vibrates, you wheels remain straight, if you mount the curb in a turn you can hold onto the curb holding the sticks in the same position.
With the DFP the wheel shakes, moving the car slightly, if you mount the curb in a turn, the feedback in the wheel changes the position of the wheel to simulate what would happen in real life it is then up to you to correct.

With the DFP the GTR cannot be controlled easily as you describe, mashing accelerator mid turn would see you off every time, it has to be caressed, and if you mount the curbs with it you are asking for loads of trouble.

If you want the realistic experience with GT4 you are simply going to have to give up You DS and get a wheel, No game pad without any sort of reactive feedback will ever be able to give as realistic a driving experience as you require.

First off, I don't only use a DS2. I also have a FF Driving Force. The point is that in a real car, even if you lock the wheels and steeringwheel, you can still do 180 when you accelerate from a standstill. You will have to correct it because it 'slides'. In GT4p this is not the case. Correct?
I can smash the gas from a standstill and while spinning move the car from left to right. It should not be that easy to control. Same for the cornering.
 
Pak
First off, I don't only use a DS2. I also have a FF Driving Force. The point is that in a real car, even if you lock the wheels and steeringwheel, you can still do 180 when you accelerate from a standstill. You will have to correct it because it 'slides'. In GT4p this is not the case. Correct?
I can smash the gas from a standstill and while spinning move the car from left to right. It should not be that easy to control. Same for the cornering.

Youre using the first driving force right? The one that came bundled with GT3?

I was hugely dissapointed after plunking down 150$ for that trash. I tried using it for about a week then just put it away. It's still happily collecting dust.

From all the talk on these boards, however, the DS2 is supposedly miles ahead of the first incarnation, with all sorts of whiz-bangery like ummm, a 2 in the designation. Honestly, I can't say anything about it because I haven't had a chance with it (since I havent seen it for sale anywhere around these parts.)
 
kinigitt
Youre using the first driving force right? The one that came bundled with GT3?

I was hugely dissapointed after plunking down 150$ for that trash. I tried using it for about a week then just put it away. It's still happily collecting dust.

From all the talk on these boards, however, the DS2 is supposedly miles ahead of the first incarnation, with all sorts of whiz-bangery like ummm, a 2 in the designation. Honestly, I can't say anything about it because I haven't had a chance with it (since I havent seen it for sale anywhere around these parts.)

Yeah I hate driving with that thing in GT3. It's decent for PC games but I'm saving for a Driving Force Pro. Btw DS2 = Dual Shock 2. :o
 
Back