GT5 Flawed Genius?

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Cobra_NZ

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It's taken me some time to write this, please take the time to read this in it's entirety and think before posting. Thank you.

Let's be honest, as usual KY's & PD's GT5 is a work of genius, but is that, flawed genius? This can sometimes happen when someone is held in such regard that not many question him, his decisions and his actions, and the majority think whatever he does is the right thing.

The 200 premium cars, the night and day transitions, new physics, full damage, car roll over, high and low beams, new particle effects, new textures and inclusion of WRC and NASCAR licences, the new tracks, 3D pit crews, marshals and spectators and backfire effects. Genius!

The 800 standard cars, lack of weather, lack of real time skidmarks, 2D trees and spectators, reverse lights, all tracks too detailed resulting in loss of quality, nearly 6 years to arrive. Flawed?

What's happend is that KY had a vision that was too big for the PS3 and GT5 and too time consuming for the GT fans. In the end, GT5 is not the product all the GT fans have been waiting for 6 long years.

Let's look at the tracks:

The tracks are extraordinary in size and scope, but not impressive at all in terms of the low resolution flat textures very low quality object textures, 2D spectators and trees. If screensots and videos are looked at in detail, these problems are always easy to notice. There is no point in super expansive details a mile from the track if these look poor in replays and photomode. By not going so far he could have ensured that all that is on track looks as good as the objects a foot from the track. Same goes for so many trees and spectators, sometimes less is more and it would have been better to have less of them on track but ensure these are all in 3D. This may have also allowed for more textures on track to give it a more used and rough and realistic appearance. How about real time skidmarks, GT fans have asked for this for a decade? This disparity between the quality of some parts of tracks and others makes them look unfinished, and just plain odd.:banghead:

Let's discuss the cars

If the point is to wait 6 years to get 1000 premium cars then it would make sense. But the 800 standard cars will take the shine form the 200 premium cars and make the 6 years wait a bit of a cruel joke. How exactly is a GT fan going to feel about driving his favorite car being a standard car while others he's not interested in, will be premium? He, or she, can either only play with the premium cars or drive his favorite car, or the car he owns in real life, being standard and be resenful. What made GT was not the super cars, it was the used cars, the fact that a GT fan has a car he drives to work every day and turn it into a fully fledged racing machine in a GT game. GT5 has missed that point and the 800 standard cars will alienate lot of those GT5 fans, fans like myself. I don't want to drive the Subaru Legacy B4 Blitzen standard, I want the Subaru Legacy B4 Blitzen premium. I want the full premium damage not the poor excuse that is standard damage! There are rear seats and leather stitching in premium cars but no reverse lights on any cars, or interiors for standard cars...

Now let's look at another direction the GT franchise could have taken:

All the fans would have coped quite well if in 2008 the GT5 was released with just the 800 standard cars, new physics, few 3D trees and spectators, slightly sparse tracks, real time skidmarks, reverse lights and the standard damage, rollover, 3D pit crews, marshals, new particle effects and backfire effects and up to 10 cars on track online and 20 offline.

Then perhaps a brand new GT6 with 250 premium cars with day and night transitions and standard weather would arrive in 2011 with some new tracks, keeping the quantity vs quality bias towards quality, premium damage, Super GT 500, and WRC licences and up to 8 cars online and 16 offline. The PS3 could manage 16 car grids for Super GT 500 in offline mode.

GT7 could arrive in 2014 on PS4 with perhaps 1000 premium cars, dynamic weather and the full expansive tracks that KY dreams of. All in high quality with high resolution bumpmapped textures, 3D spectators and trees, adding Super GT 300 and F1 licences and up to 28 cars online and offline. PS4 should easily manage the 28 car grids in Super GT 300.

GT8 arriving in 2017, still on PS4 with 1500 cars, adding NASCAR and Le Mans and over 50 cars online and offline. Full car grid races of Le Mans with night transitions and dynamic weather would be the GT Holy Grail! :bowdown:

Now, to me, nothing but a GT fan, this kind of GT franchise schedule makes much more sense on an acceptable development timespan, avoiding alienating GT fanbase, increasing sales and profits. Why did KY and PD make such a big mess of it along 6 years, conflicting information, empty promises on features that never materialized and finally a product that appears unfinished and too ambitious? Even KY himself admitted recently he might have aimed too high...
 
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We all know that he's a 'Perfectionist', so that means he wants his dream to make it the best racing game ever. We all know that GT5 isn't finished yet is because of the 800 standard cars haven't been remodelled from scratch.

We all hope that after GT5 is released Polyphony Digital should release DLC for GT.

Examples: upgrading standard models into premium models, adding more tracks, fixing glitches etc.

So lets just wait and see if it happens.....
 
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YOu forgot that for the last 5 years they haven't just been modeling premium cars

They've been building a new physics engine from the ground up that supports rollover, complex damage, and day to night transitions. They've been designing and testing a brand new online system from the ground up and it looks to rival and even surpass most PC sims.

They've been designing probably the most accurate racetracks of any racing sim.

Keep in mind that Gran Turismo 4 was released February 2005

Sony did not release the Final development kit for the Playstation 3 until August 2006

That's why at E3 2006 PD showed off Gran Turismo HD and "standard" cars. They didn't show off "premium" GT5 cars because they were just now being created. In fact if I remember correctly it was Kaz's original plan to release Gran Turismo HD with all the "standard" cars and a tiny amount of "premium" cars.

So in all reality PD has only had 4 solid years to work on GT5.

Look at Final Fantasy XIII. The developers cut towns out of the game because they said it would take too long to model them in HD. And that game has been in development even longer then GT5 and just came out a few months ago.
 
Earth, you bring some very good points and I agree with most of them. I still feel that we were better of with a GT5 in 2008 with the standards cars, rather than waiting over 5 years for this GT5...
 
Earth, you bring some very good points and I agree with most of them. I still feel that we were better of with a GT5 in 2008 with the standards cars, rather than waiting over 5 years for this GT5...

Too late now. :)
 
Raitziger, I felt the same myself, other first party titles on consoles rival to PS3 have had the benefit of developing teams twice as big. However the reality is this: One has to make the best with what one has. Hence I have been mentioning about Quality vs Quantity in a previous thread.
 
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The guy has a heck of a vision, along with the talent and passion that it takes to pursue something like this. But is he flawed? Sure, who isn't? (I know thats not exactly what you mean)

However, if there is a major flaw in all of this; it is the marketing division of PD. The amount of communication between PD and the community is not enough. Well, its not enough when it takes this long to make a game. However, it does seem they have become extremely good at listening to the community, but still have not done a good enough job talking to the community.

The more I think about the premium and standard cars. The more it makes total freaking sense. Like Kaz said, they are building GT5 as the foundation for future GT's. So, it makes sense to create models this detailed, and create all new physics, day/night engine, weather engine (hopefully), etc. If they would have been more straight-forward about the premium/standard cars throughout the process it would have worked out much better. Now, it feels like, "Surprise! Now that we are about to be married, I want to tell you I have a kid in Arizona.":dopey: That's not cool.👎

To summarize, while I'm playing the game in November, I almost 100% sure I will be thinking a lot about genius, and very little about flawed. 👍
 
Weather will be in, as in rain, reverse lights is already in, guess you haven't been around....
Some trees are 3D, well as 3D as other games which have "3D" trees

And no, tracks are not too detailed, infact they could use more detail!

GT - new console, new engine, 5 years, 170 cars - 400k polys?
GT3 - new console, new engine, 3 years or something, 150 cars - 4000k polys?

2nd game on each console, GT2 - 600+ cars, GT4 700+ cars

notice a trend? Although I doubt GT6 will crack 500 premium cars, it just takes longer to do things in the HD world
 
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scope72, true, KY and PD have started listening to the GT fanbase, but a bit too late for the whole GT5 fiasco and yes, their PR department needs improvement.

Will I play GT5 in November? At the moment it's doubtful. If they show commitment to replace all standard cars with premium as DLC at a steady rate? Still doubtful, but I may be warming to the game. Still, at the rate of development so far it could take PD another 2 years, or more, to make 800 premium cars. :scared: As the release date aproaches in 6 months time? Maybe GT5 fever will win me over, but if a few other driving games, currently in development can give me my racing fix, I may just forget the GT5 alltogether and see if KY's dream can finally be achieved on GT6 or a GT on PS4...

EDIT: CoolColJ, Then why wait nearly 6 years for this contraption? Why not a GT5 with standard cars in 2008? Even if they wanted to follow prev GT trends, they should have just said 250 cars and not even mentioned the standard cars. Or why not say: "We commit to changing 10 standard cars per week into premium via DLC"? Or something to that effect. Why? Because that would mean nearly 2 years of of hard modelling work for PD without getting paid, if they can even manage such schedule... Could they charge for the DLC? Yes. That could work. Then just continue until PS4 is nearing release and have a GT6 with all the DLC, some new cars, tracks and a new career.
 
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You say many would coped well with 800 standard cars in 2008. I'd have to disagree with that. Interior cockpits is something that is anticipated in this generation, and there would probably be as many people upset. People would have to wait until 2010 or even 2011 for a GT game with cockpit views. I don't know how well that will bode for the GT franchise. Then some might be disappointed with the sudden drop in car numbers from 800 to just 250. The complaining is an endless cycle. Not everyone share the same interests.

The problem with all this is PD wants to push the system, especially knowing that they can. Unfortunately that path is very time consuming so only 200 can make it.
 
EDIT: CoolColJ, Then why wait nearly 6 years for this contraption? Why not a GT5 with standard cars in 2008? Even if they wanted to follow prev GT trends, they should have just said 250 cars and not even mentioned the standard cars. Or why not say: "We commit to changing 10 standard cars per week into premium via DLC"? Or something to that effect. Why? Because that would mean nearly 2 years of of hard modelling work for PD without getting paid, if they can even manage such schedule... Could they charge for the DLC? Yes. That could work. Then just continue until PS4 is nearing release and have a GT6 with all the DLC, some new cars, tracks and a new career.

PD wanted to release GTHD many years ago, but the general public veto'ed that idea with their internet opinion - so blame "us" not them
It was going to be an uprated and upgraded GT4 in HD etc for the PS3

"At this year’s E3 2006, I am excited to provide you a glimpse of our vision for
Gran Turismo® by showcasing the technological capabilities of PLAYSTATION®3 with a special playable demo titled “Gran Turismo HD”. Please note that this product does not represent an official product and is merely a prototype.

With the power of PLAYSTATION 3, “Gran Turismo HD” has been prepared in full HD resolution (i.e. 1920 x 1080p, p for progressive) and is displayed at a refresh rate of 60 frames per second. As you may know, this is the highest possible performance available on the latest high definition television and is three times higher in quality than the average high definition quality broadcast where HD-CAM capabilities are at 1450 x 1080i, (i for interlace). Comparatively, the visual quality in “Gran Turismo HD” is 12 times higher than Gran Turismo® 4 on PlayStation® 2, allowing for a world of true high definition, not possible in any other visual format today.

The wait for the next generation of Gran Turismo, post launch of PS3, may not be as long as you think.

Kazunori Yamauchi
Creator of Gran Turismo



Gran Turismo HD project
On the September 22 2006 Tokyo Game Show opening, Famitsu's website released details and a screenshot about a new Polyphony Digital project, Gran Turismo HD, scheduled from a December release.[1] Two versions would be simultaneously released, the Blu-ray Disc based "GTHD Premium" (GTHDプレミアム) and the PlayStation Store downloadable "GTHD Classic" (GTHDクラシック)[1].

During the Tokyo Game Show, Polyphony Digital unveiled the first Gran Turismo HD teaser, it featured HD renders of five cars: Nismo GT-R R-Tune R1 '99, Honda S2000 '99, TOM'S Castrol Supra JGTC '99, Ford GT '05 and the Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano '06.[2] The first four cars were available in Gran Turismo 4 but didn't appear in late GTHD trailers, though the Ferrari was featured in Gran Turismo HD Concept. Kazunori Yamauchi confirmed the full version of Gran Turismo HD was scheduled for a December 2007 release in Japan.[3] Among the planned contents he introduced an "iTunes-like" download service and various download packs including additional cars and tracks, advanced AI or car damage, all of which being compatible with the future Gran Turismo 5.[3]

Gran Turismo HD cancellation
In November 2006 shortly before the release of Gran Turismo HD Concept v2.0, Polyphony Digital director Kazunori Yamauchi officially announced a "revision" in the "product strategy": "Gran Turismo 5 will be given priority".[4]

Polyphony Digital chose to abandon the planned full version named Gran Turismo HD, which was previously announced as Vision Gran Turismo at the E3 2005 and was first displayed during the Tokyo Game Show 2006 and was scheduled for a 2007 worldwide release[5] to focus on developing Gran Turismo 5 instead.[4]

Kazunori Yamauchi stated "Gran Turismo 5 will adopt most of the planned features of Gran Turismo HD", this is confirmed by the two "Gran Turismo x Skyline" trailers based on Gran Turismo 4 replay footages and early Gran Turismo HD Concept artworks or replay footages and including the line "Passage to Gran Turismo 5".[6] "We are hoping to present [...] several Concept versions, each loaded with various experimental features" Kazunori Yamauchi added.[5] That makes Gran Turismo 5 Prologue the first title of this planned experimental series since it is dedicated to online playing feature.
 
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CoolColJ, I am well aware of GTHD and Vision Gran Turismo. I am a very dedicated GT fan and have always followed it's progress. I am also well aware that on GTP forums at least, we were all for a GTHD. What we didn't like was all those rumours about paying by the car and having a GT Standard and GT Premium version. I believe you may be remembering things incorrectly.

In any case the time has passed and GT5 is a bit of a turkey now, after nearly 6 years in development. Have you actually seen the HD video of the standard cars on the official GT website? Did you know that if you drive a premium car with standard cars in a race it will mean your car will be downgraded to a standard version? Just how exactly will that feel? What KY and PD have done with GT5 is nothing short of sensational in it's premium mode. But, the whole adding the standard cars, NASCAR and WRC business has created this odd bipolar thing and will create a lot of resentment in the GT fanbase. Ask any fans and the majority would have liked the time taken on including the standard cars, NASCAR and WRC spent on converting more cars to premium. Even the tracks suffer from this strange bipolar contraption, in some plces looking premium and in some decidedly standard...👎
 
CoolColJ Ask any fans and the majority would have liked the time taken on including the standard cars, NASCAR and WRC spent on converting more cars to premium. Even the tracks suffer from this strange bipolar contraption, in some plces looking premium and in some decidedly standard...👎

I'm not so sure about that. You may be right, but I'm doubtful. Even if there was no WRC, Nascar, or standard cars, that doesn't mean making premium cars will be shorten. I don't know exactly how production works for PD and how the work is split up, but if this is the case, there probably wouldn't be that much more premium. Perhaps 400 at best. These premiums really do seem to take a lot of time.

This whole thread is really about what you think would be best for you, but how about the others?
 
daus26, so you are trying to tell me that if PD released GT5 with 400 premium models, and that's it, you would not have preferred that over it's current form? 400 premium models? And, yes, a lot of this is about my opinion, I'm the one posting it. And when anyone else that has posted theirs, I've acknowledged and replied.

Just out of curiosity, make a thread with a poll to see if GT fans would prefer GT5 in it current form, with the standard cars, NASCAR and WRC, or a 400 premium GT5 with road tracks only and no licences. Better still, I'll check if I can put one in this thread.;)

EDIT: Unfortunately I am unable to add a poll now, once the thread has already been created.
 
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As long as my beloved Pulsar GTI-R from GT2 makes it back into GT5, I'm happy, even if it's in standard form. Hell it should look better than it was in GT2 in full HD!
 
I would like my old BMW E30 325i, Renault Clio Williams, Honda Del Sol SIR, Toyota Altezza RS and my current Subaru Legacy B4 Blitzen and my fiancee's Toyota Vitz RS in too, but all of these will be standard cars. :(
 
I think I will reserve comment on the "flawed" aspect, since we still don't know what the final build will have in its entirety.

The only area for me that is a suspect for that descriptive, is the Standard/Premium car disparity.

Flawed or otherwise, Kaz has evidently decided to invest the bulk of development in making the Premium cars extremely detailed, both in and out.

As you point out and I agree, a huge part of the game for most everyone is driving the Standard cars which make up a whopping 80% of the cars. The exteriors I can live with from what I can see so far, but no modeled interior or cockpit, is a pretty big disappointment. Any representation on this item would have been preferable to me, even at the cost of less detail for all cars, particularly the underside of the premium cars. :confused:

Apparently the theme Kaz has chosen, is to showcase the Premium cars as the main focus of GT5 in the "cars" category.

Is it 'flawed" to do so?

You decide.
 
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The fact that you critisize the lack of Reverse lights in your original article makes it FLAWED.


You are critisizing an unreleased game based mainly on assumptions. Wait untill the game is out before making such a long winded complaint and bear in mind that there are 2 more games conferences before release, so we will almost certainly be given more information at those.

Just be thankfull for the features that have already been announced and expect a few more before release.
 
About this standard cars malarky. I and most of my friends drive in bonnet view so we don't see the car at all you just see more of the track in that view than cotpit view. Also when you are driving at your limit you don't really look at the track's detail. I'm more interested in the physics so it handels more like a real car does.
 
GT8 arriving in 2017, still on PS4 with 1500 cars, adding NASCAR and Le Mans and over 50 cars online and offline. Full car grid races of Le Mans with night transitions and dynamic weather would be the GT Holy Grail! :bowdown:

I'm amazed to think that this kind of scenario will be happening in the future, the ultimate driving game. It will take time though, the modeling and game designing takes longer and longer the better the resolutions etc. get, but I'm still young. Maybe on PS5, Gran Turismo (I think it'll be Gran Turismo, why would it die anywhere?) will finally be the game we wanted GT5 to be.
 
Youve made some good points there.

Aside from the fact that making the fans wait 6 years for a sequel of a game being ridiculous, I cant understand how they could have let this happen on a financial side of things... sure they made some money on prologue but if they followed the plan you described i think we would both, us and PD, be in a much better situation.
 
It's absurd that Sony hasn't given PD more support financially. They need more than 100 guys working on a game of this size.
 
Common guys, its way to early to start criticizing the creators and people behind this game.

Until you actually get your hands on the game, how can you be complaining that the textures or tracks aren't properly textured etc.

I'm happy with whatever they give us. This game is shaping upto be perhaps better than GT3, the online-functionality, track selection, increased customization could make this the best GT ever.
 
Earth, you bring some very good points and I agree with most of them. I still feel that we were better of with a GT5 in 2008 with the standards cars, rather than waiting over 5 years for this GT5...

Eehh! Isn't that what GT5p is? :dopey:
 
Anyone arguing for more premium cars has obviously overlooked that there is not enough physical space left on the disc. DLC seems like the way to do things here.
 
He, or she, can either only play with the premium cars or drive his favorite car, or the car he owns in real life, being standard and be resenful. What made GT was not the super cars, it was the used cars, the fact that a GT fan has a car he drives to work every day anh turn it into a fully fledged racing machine in a GT game. GT5 has missed that point and the 800 standard cars will alienate lot of those GT5 fans, fans like myself

+1 👍

I'm affraid gran turismo becomes a super car or a race car game like many other.

Fortunately, affordable and classic cars will be in GT, but I think these cars really deserve cockpit view.
Where is the interest to drive a classic or daily car (which is outdated in term of performance), if there isn't cockpit view to have fun.
 
Let's base GT to a famous F1 racer. Let's see...... Oh there it is! Michael Schumacher! He was rocking the F1 world in 90's and early 2000 just like Gran Turismo did to racing game genre! But after he came back from retirement and went back to F1, he was not the same. I hope GT5 situation won't be like Schumacher. He got more loved and less hate back in the day, but now it, seems a lot of people hate him more. In GT franchise it's almost the same. It was loved back in the late 90's through early 2000. But now there's more hate in GT than any racing game after Forza came out. Just like after Schumacher left then Lewis Hamilton arrived and Fernando Alonzo became a champion.
 
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