[GT5 @TGS '10] (See Post 1): Demo Videos, Trailers, Car/Track Pics, Interviews, News.

  • Thread starter Thread starter SrRd RacinG
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False.
Every game that has v-sync enabled is free of tearing, e.g. Forza2/3.

Correct me if I'm wrong:
-when rendering a scene takes longer than 1/60th of a second (with a game running @60fps)

->you get tearing with no vsync enabled
->framerate drops to 30 fps with vsync enabled

So VSync is in no way a miraculous solution to all tearing probs.

Again, correct me if im wrong.
 
Just can't please some people.

If the tearing annoys you and it puts you of the game find something else to play. Many console games have occurances of tearing or dropped frames.

Deal-With-It

Please don't take it like this!
I've say-ed it before: I'm not trying to prove something to you.And I don't have any problems with it!It's just facts for me and we talking about it.
Deal-With-It! :sly:

Correct me if I'm wrong:
-when rendering a scene takes longer than 1/60th of a second (with a game running @60fps)

->you get tearing with no vsync enabled
->framerate drops to 30 fps with vsync enabled

So VSync is in no way a miraculous solution to all tearing probs.

Again, correct me if im wrong.

No.Tearing and frame-rate drop are different things!So...
-when rendering a scene takes longer than 1/60th of a second (with a game running @60fps)

with v-sync enabled we have solid frames @ lower than 60fps.
with v-sync disabled we have one frame on top of the screen and next frame on bottom with "line" in center.

It's hard for me to explain (English is not my native) but this video explains it more than any words:

 
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I think many people are forgetting that Prologue was released early in the PS3's life, when things were horribly unoptimised compared to today's titles. Polyphony aren't idiots; they wouldn't begin to implement weather, only to decide it's impossible to optimise their game to incorporate this new feature on current hardware. The amount of blind speculation going on here is pathetic. It's almost as if people are wishing the game to be worse.
 
Are you saying they wouldn't start something in the game, only to later realise they couldn't Finish it.

Hmm.
 
No.Tearing and frame-rate drop are different things!So...
-when rendering a scene takes longer than 1/60th of a second (with a game running @60fps)

with v-sync enabled we have solid frames @ lower than 60fps.
with v-sync disabled we have one frame on top of the screen and next frame on bottom with "line" in center.

It's hard for me to explain (English is not my native) but this video explains it more than any words:



I do not agree :)

v-sync and frame rate drop are related! With v-sync on you wait till the next v-blank to put your prepared backbuffer onscreen. If the rendering is only a bit to slow you are waiting half of the time! So your framerate drops quite dramatically.

The video you show is a video for a tool that removes tearing from game video footage. This has nothing to do with real time game rendering.

So vsync still is no miraculous tearing solver. Correct me if im wrong!
 
Am I right in thinking this show goes live in 10 hours?
 
I do not agree :)

v-sync and frame rate drop are related! With v-sync on you wait till the next v-blank to put your prepared backbuffer onscreen. If the rendering is only a bit to slow you are waiting half of the time! So your framerate drops quite dramatically.

The video you show is a video for a tool that removes tearing from game video footage. This has nothing to do with real time game rendering.

So vsync still is no miraculous tearing solver. Correct me if im wrong!

You're absolutely correct. V-sync is an ugly hack, really, because the clock on modern displays is fixed, more or less, and mode changes require the screen to "reboot", which is obviously no good for games.

Since modern displays use fixed lighting for the pixels (i.e. they can be held on indefinitely, practically speaking) there is no reason that the display should be demanding updates from the source; the source should be driving the display, so that the display only updates when the source has finished rendering.

This way, you would never get screen tearing, but the framerate doesn't suddenly drop to half the refresh rate, just because a frame is a touch late.

Of course, TV and movies are always the same speed (well, interpolated to the same speed, at least...) so TVs only need to be operating in one mode for these media - games, on the other hand, are not so fixed. The other massive drawback is that the sources need to have some sort of extra control built in - luckily, this might be possible for devices like the PS3 with a firmware update - for PCs it's even easier. Then again, they managed to add DRM to monitors and TVs, this should be no problem.

--------------------

As for whether the slowdown in GT5:P is indicative of a lack of overhead for extra effects in GT5 proper, we had better wait and see. There are always little tricks that can be done - like reducing view-distance, fogging or adding a Level of Detail bias when the rain comes in. Blurring the screen (like a Depth of Field effect, to emulate distant rain) can hide the drop in LoD, for example.

10 hours is not long to wait. :D
 
about 8.5 hours is correct!...it is currently 04:20 AM in Tokio...
 
about 8.5 hours is correct!...it is currently 04:20 AM in Tokio...

Thanks for the confirmation. It'll be 6am here in Berlin, I'll get up one hour earlier just for GT5 ;)
 
Can't wait to see the standards.
 
Will the stream go in 60fps without tearing?

I mean, if there is no V-sync enabled and if I don't get 1080p/60fps 3D video of the conference without tearing and slowing down for one single frame, I swear the God I will not watch it.

I mean, really.

There has to be some standard guys, I mean, come on.
 
Will the stream go in 60fps without tearing?

I mean, if there is no V-sync enabled and if I don't get 1080p/60fps 3D video of the conference without tearing and slowing down for one single frame, I swear the God I will not watch it.

I mean, really.

There has to be some standard guys, I mean, come on.

You'll be wanting the Premium stream, methinks... ;)
 
I do not agree :)
v-sync and frame rate drop are related! With v-sync on you wait till the next v-blank to put your prepared backbuffer onscreen. If the rendering is only a bit to slow you are waiting half of the time! So your framerate drops quite dramatically.

The video you show is a video for a tool that removes tearing from game video footage. This has nothing to do with real time game rendering.

So vsync still is no miraculous tearing solver. Correct me if im wrong!

You right, I just can't explain it correctly.And this video shows what tearing and v-synced pictures are looks like.Nothing more!

I don't said that v-sync and frame-rate drop is not related, I just said that it's not the same.
With V-sync enabled game need to render some frames "ahead", this cause some noticeable performance drop and increased latency.That's why GT3 and GT4 is not v-synced too (but they has performance "reserve", so you barely see a tearing).
But I can't explain why v-synced Burnout Paradise is so responsive...:sly:👍

And the next possible "solid" frame rate is 30fps if your display runs at 60Hz.
Snicker3s is right.

Burnout Paradise, God Of War 3 - those all are v-synced, and they strove to 60fps, but actually runs at lower frame-rate. (variable frame rate).I mean they not necessary go straight to 30fps if it can't run at 60fps. (you always can double previous frame right?)

By "solid" I mean full frame on screen, without v-sync it looks like in video - half-frame on upper side and next frame on bottom (or vice-versa, don't know)
 
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Actually quite a big difference.If you not experienced perfect-smooth 60fps then nothing I can tell you.But one thing is for real - it enhance sense of speed a lot!Even very tiny frame drops (like in GT5P) and all this gone.You can switch to 720p mode and see yourself. (maybe you just feel it, because you don't actually know "what you need to see")
Remember sense of speed in GT3,4?A lot of this just because perfect stable 60fps.
Again if you don't worry about this - all right, it's your business - I'm really not trying to prove something to you.



Absolutely!



+1000!
Thanks man - it's EXACTLY what I feel about it!I'm really glad that I'm not alone!


dude you are realy annoying i tell you :)

There is no problem with either GT5TT nor GT5P.

All games tear when vsync is off but screen tearing must be reaaaaaaly bad to be noticable in first place. Go play uncharted 1 it was tear fest even then people didn't even realize that game tears A LOT.

When game tear noticable it will show even on 30 FPS youtube video.

And i also said that this have to do with your TV A LOT.

I think it's just like audiophile thema. One say that gold analog cable is so much better and another is laughing at him because digital is better, and there is another party that don't understand neither of them because when it plays loud it is good then .... :)

sorry for my eng ;(

ALSO vsync on will get your less responsive (more lag)...

//edit 2

ok back on TGS thema

Only few hours !!!!!
 
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I honestly couldn't give a flying monkeys of there's a bit of tearing...if it's passive i.e. noticeable but not off-putting. If Kaz wants people to play using all the high-end features intact...16 premium, dynamic damage, day/night, dynamic weather...a little tearing is somewhat expected.

PS3 can only do so much.
 
I honestly couldn't give a flying monkeys of there's a bit of tearing...if it's passive i.e. noticeable but not off-putting. If Kaz wants people to play using all the high-end features intact...16 premium, dynamic damage, day/night, dynamic weather...a little tearing is somewhat expected.

PS3 can only do so much.

Drop one car and problem fixed! :sly:
 
Actually, some of the V-sync problems may be caused by combination of certain TV model and HDMI cable and in-game graphics mode (720p/1080p).
In my case, there are very few tearing problems in Prologue, and I almost didn't experience screen-tearing in TT demo at all.
I doubt that GT5 will be suffering from this badly, either.
 
Maybe the 3DTV mode will be less prone to tearing if they go for a dual 720p @ 30fps.

Go buy yourself one of those new Sony 3D Projectors for the little sum of £6000 and have a 100" 3D Screen with face tracking. :drool:
I doubt you will worry about the odd dropped frame or tearing.

Dear Santa...
zya8ax.jpg
 
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Why isn't there an online Esperanto translator :grumpy: ah well, a million apologies my friend (in Esperanto) :D

:lol:...

You'll be wanting the Premium stream, methinks... ;)

That premium stream better show a convention with realistic weather changes and day to night transitions, or I'm not watching. :rolleyes:
 
Not yet! :)

There's still a few hours left. I'm in the UK and it's currently 9pm so there's still 8 hours till it kicks off in Tokyo.

Anyone in Europe or the US who's planning on waking up early before work or School to see the show?
 
You right, I just can't explain it correctly.And this video shows what tearing and v-synced pictures are looks like.Nothing more!

I don't said that v-sync and frame-rate drop is not related, I just said that it's not the same.
With V-sync enabled game need to render some frames "ahead", this cause some noticeable performance drop and increased latency.That's why GT3 and GT4 is not v-synced too (but they has performance "reserve", so you barely see a tearing).
But I can't explain why v-synced Burnout Paradise is so responsive...:sly:👍

V-sync only waits until the screen is ready before sending the frame; double buffering renders a frame behind (i.e. it sends the previous frame whilst working on the current one) - double buffering incurs a much larger delay (one frame) than v-sync should (a fraction of one frame), except the source has to wait until the next frame anyway, so it ends up being delayed a whole frame (totaling two frames if double-buffering is used) but only when a frame is skipped - this is why the hardware implementation of v-sync is totally wrong for games.

Maybe Burnout Paradise uses some internal clock that allows them to really push close to the edge of the V-blank segment of a frame, thus minimising the latency. The other thing is that a consistent (but small) latency can be dealt with (anyone who's played Rock Band / Guitar Hero will attest to this); once the latency starts jumping around, that's when you have real problems - i.e. stuttering, dropped frames etc (anyone who's played those same games on an I/O hacked Wii can attest to that...)

Burnout Paradise, God Of War 3 - those all are v-synced, and they strove to 60fps, but actually runs at lower frame-rate. (variable frame rate).I mean they not necessary go straight to 30fps if it can't run at 60fps. (you always can double previous frame right?)

...

Yes, that's exactly what's happening, but the frame, although doubled, is the same as the last, so in a moving scene, the perception is one of a lower frame rate. The TV is still running at 60 Hz, but the source hasn't updated it's buffer yet, so it sends the same info as the last frame - that's where the extra latency comes from, since you then have to wait yet another frame to see what's changed in the game world.

--------------------------

@Rattlehead I agree that certain combinations can't be ideal (e.g. 50 Hz only TV with a 60 Hz game? :scared:) I also had no screen-tearing issues, using HDMI into DVI on a PC monitor. I did see slowdown, though, and had colour-compression issues...

Anyway, enough of that... :crazy:

If the conference doesn't show Standard cars, there might be a bit of an issue, assuming that new features are announced, and others clarified...
 
Not yet! :)

There's still a few hours left. I'm in the UK and it's currently 9pm so there's still 8 hours till it kicks off in Tokyo.

Anyone in Europe or the US who's planning on waking up early before work or School to see the show?

I think I'm gonna get up at 6AM (GMT+2), I only have to leave for work at eight, so I'd get the chance to watch it all :)
After the presentation I will go on a media blackout... if I'm strong enough :P
 
I live in Chicago, so for me it starts at 11:00pm which isn't too bad, but it really depends on when they show GT5. then again I do have to wake up at around 5:45am. So I might just wait until the morning to read about the game in the news section.
 
Not yet! :)

There's still a few hours left. I'm in the UK and it's currently 9pm so there's still 8 hours till it kicks off in Tokyo.

Anyone in Europe or the US who's planning on waking up early before work or School to see the show?

Yep, Ilive in Holland., it starts here at 6 in the morning.
 
Starts at 6 and I need to go at 7, it's a one hour show right? =P
 
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