GT5p vs GRID (First, and only, take)

[Wolfe]

So in other words you are saying every other rally game is more realistic than DiRT?

If not, then your presumption that TunerFocus has never played any other rally games is completely off base.

I never made any presumption. If you want one, you can have one -- I'll bet that TunerFocus has played several rally games. The point of my statement was that, though a fine game in its own right, DiRT is far from a rally sim. The context made that clear.

I realize you have a long history of exaggerating things, especially when it comes to criticizing Gran Turismo games, and promoting games like Forza and PGR but it really only makes your opinion that much more difficult to take seriously.

It's hilarious how you try so hard to paint me as the villain -- you do realize I've spent many, many more hours playing GT3 than I have in all of the Forza and PGR games combined, right? I guess that doesn't matter, all heathens that dare blaspheme the almighty GT4 must burn in hell, it seems.

I would try explaining to you the difference between rhetorical hyperbole and exaggerated opinions, but you didn't get it last time, so I don't know if I should bother. I'm not used to having to explain that "GT4 and its 10 billion cars" is hyperbole, whereas "GT4 and its awful oversteer modelling" is not. If someone says, "this book is heavy, it must weigh 3 tons," do you discount their opinion that the book is heavy as nonsense simply because you disagree with their appraisal of the book's measured weight?

Here's another presumption -- you must be boring to talk to in real life.

DiRT's simcade physics

Okay, so you agree with me that DiRT isn't the most realistic rally game. Why are we having this conversation?

However, if you can list all the Rally games that you "feel" are more realistic than DiRT... in race series, graphics, sounds, tracks, cars, damage, "invisible barriers", tuning, options, cockpit views, replays, etc. then by all means do so.

DiRT didn't really impress me, but if you think it's very immersive despite its physics, I can't argue with that. If you didn't notice, I was just defending GRID from the same viewpoint.

But that doesn't make DiRT a realistic rally game. At least, not what I'd call "realistic."

Anyone who says that DiRT is the most unrealistic rally game of all rally games ever released has either completely lost their mind, or is blatantly lying.

Let me know when you find an example of this person.

 

[GTP_Cobra]

Well i thank thats the concluesion too me, which ive just been thinking about is...

I think we can all agree to disagree everyone has there opinion good or bad, has long has someone sees what there trying to do with that type of game.

you cant please everyone im sure i have a difference of an opinion some where else but that fact of the matter is..."you cant win them all" someone will always disagree.

Cobra

 

[homeforsummer]

Well i thank thats the concluesion too me, which ive just been thinking about is...

I think we can all agree to disagree everyone has there opinion good or bad, has long has someone sees what there trying to do with that type of game.

you cant please everyone im sure i have a difference of an opinion some where else but that fact of the matter is..."you cant win them all" someone will always disagree.

Cobra

Is that fence comfortable?

However, you are cherry picking specific categories among the many already mentioned.

I wouldn't say I was cherry picking, I remember mentioning that CMR4 was better on everything I'm prepared to take the hit in graphics from PS3 to PS2 for the extra everything that CMR4 offers me. And for the same reason, this is why I've installed TOCA 2 on my laptop in preference to buying GRID 👍

 

[sxboyd]

Careful on that one, dude.
First off I'm not a 'she', the name is for my AAR Cuda. [/I] 👍

Sorry, no offense on the name and you should not be offended - bad assumption on my part and I apologise.

Second I've been gaming since SLIing my first Monster cards so you're a little off on that one. Hell I was playing CW on my AST while at work.[/I] 👍

But if you read my quote again, I said I had been gaming on more systems than you had years, in another I said i had been gaming for more than you had years. Since I was playing games (Red Baron) on the ARPNET style network (actually pre-ARPNET) while in US Navy BEEP school in San Diego in 1968 and on my first console in 1979 on the Tektronix 4050 series (Shoot and Space Blaster (pre-Asteroids) and have played ever since, that says that you would have to be older than 40 (or if you just count the console games/pc games, older than 29; so were you born before or after 1972? If you are older than 40 - my bad ( if you are over 29, I may feel a little guilty; and no I don't need to see your drivers license. I have played on an equal number (or greater) of platforms many of which you have never seen because it on equipment involving my line of work. If you haven't figured it out already, that puts me over the 60 mark.

And sorry, again no offense, but if someone with a 'ton' of gaming experience can't figure out how to drive well in GRiD, then something is up, it's just not that hard. I win all the time and place first overall a lot. Soooooo......💡

When PD finally releases GT5, and god only knows when that's gonna be, I'll more than gladly meet up with you on whatever track you like. 👍

Now please pay attention on this part! Where, in any of my posts, did I say I could not win when playing GRID? Where did I even IMPLY that I could not win? Where did I say that I could not drive well in GRID? My beefs with the game were these in numerical order (go back and read the origianl post if you like):

1, The initiation to qualify as a "rookie" was dumb and not thought out - ANYONE could comjplete the race and "qualify" - DUMB! No license, nopractice, no knowledge of the track - you start out not even knowing what track you are on.

2. Steering wheel support for the game SUCKS. I could still drive it, but it was driving a boat instead of a car. I detailed very well in my original. The setup fo the wheel was just as bad.

3. The stupid AI and their driving lines and driver bashing. I don't race to get bashed or to see my car getting "damaged".

4. The cars/driving physics do not even come up to the quality of Codemasters previous racing games (TOCA RAce Driver series or Colin McCrae rally series). VERY disappointing - I guess my expectations, like many others, were just set too high! They don't look good, they don't feel good, they don't drive good - they are just car facsimilies like those in other cheap arcade racers.

5. The gameplay. Let's digress. Even in DiRT, you are given several Tiers of races, from which you can go in and pick a particular race that you want to run, with a particular car that you want to run, with vehicles that you can buy and setup the way you want for your kind of driving. In addition, you get to practice for several laps to improve your setup and knowledge of the tracks before you take the race.

In GRID, you get a choice of 3 dumb races per race, at some unknown level, at some unknown track, in a car that you can't set up, in a field where you cannot determine your position by qualification, without any means of practicing to setup your car, learn the track layout, or find out how you new car (whatever they deem) is going to behave in a particular curve or road condition. Then when you start driving, with steering that feels like it is rubber shocked, you get seem to get bashed by every AI driver you go by on your way to the front.

My comparison then was in readjusting to GT5 and to the real world. It took as much effort to unlearn to drive GRID style as it did to learn it.

Even with all that I did try it again before I returned it and it was STILL a disappointment - I said a step backward for Codemaster; and like I said in my previous post, each of these factors reduced the fun factor of the game for me (and others), so I did not care to continue with the "game".

When I was playing it, I won almost everything I entered, sometimes too easily. So I could win with regularity, though I do admit hitting the RESET button a few times.

Now read this carefully - I did NOT enjoy the wins, I was disappointed with the poor steering support, I was disappointed with the poor car handling and poor physics engine (drafted straight out of DiRT), I did not enjoy getting bashed by the stupid AI drivers, I did not enjoy the racing formats, I did not enjoy the damage modeling, I did not enjoy not practicing - and no choice to do so, I did NOT enjoy the game. It had NOTHING to do with being able to win - that was easy. It had everything to do with a sub-par game that was touted by the marketing material and the trade magazines to be a competitor to GT5 - NOT. Like I said previously - I set my expectations way too high from all of the reviews and marketing material I read.

Don't add words to this and don't take any away. Plan and simple - to me, the game sucked canal water, so I took it back with NO apology.

I could win, but my biggest loss was the 40 dollars that I lost because I should have resold in to Craig's list. So, if you feel the need to berate me or my opinion, take it out on my obvious stupidity and waste of resources in my initial expectations, my purchase of the game, and then my return at a loss to Gamestop.

"Nuff said". Oh, and if you don't know who that quote if from, check out the Fantastic Four quotes fromt the 1960 - yeah, I did that too.

 

[czechmate]

Sorry, no offense on the name and you should not be offended - bad assumption on my part and I apologise.



But if you read my quote again, I said I had been gaming on more systems than you had years, in another I said i had been gaming for more than you had years. Since I was playing games (Red Baron) on the ARPNET style network (actually pre-ARPNET) while in US Navy BEEP school in San Diego in 1968 and on my first console in 1979 on the Tektronix 4050 series (Shoot and Space Blaster (pre-Asteroids) and have played ever since, that says that you would have to be older than 40 (or if you just count the console games/pc games, older than 29; so were you born before or after 1972? If you are older than 40 - my bad ( if you are over 29, I may feel a little guilty; and no I don't need to see your drivers license. I have played on an equal number (or greater) of platforms many of which you have never seen because it on equipment involving my line of work. If you haven't figured it out already, that puts me over the 60 mark.



Now please pay attention on this part! Where, in any of my posts, did I say I could not win when playing GRID? Where did I even IMPLY that I could not win? Where did I say that I could not drive well in GRID? My beefs with the game were these in numerical order (go back and read the origianl post if you like):

1, The initiation to qualify as a "rookie" was dumb and not thought out - ANYONE could comjplete the race and "qualify" - DUMB! No license, nopractice, no knowledge of the track - you start out not even knowing what track you are on.

2. Steering wheel support for the game SUCKS. I could still drive it, but it was driving a boat instead of a car. I detailed very well in my original. The setup fo the wheel was just as bad.

3. The stupid AI and their driving lines and driver bashing. I don't race to get bashed or to see my car getting "damaged".

4. The cars/driving physics do not even come up to the quality of Codemasters previous racing games (TOCA RAce Driver series or Colin McCrae rally series). VERY disappointing - I guess my expectations, like many others, were just set too high! They don't look good, they don't feel good, they don't drive good - they are just car facsimilies like those in other cheap arcade racers.

5. The gameplay. Let's digress. Even in DiRT, you are given several Tiers of races, from which you can go in and pick a particular race that you want to run, with a particular car that you want to run, with vehicles that you can buy and setup the way you want for your kind of driving. In addition, you get to practice for several laps to improve your setup and knowledge of the tracks before you take the race.

In GRID, you get a choice of 3 dumb races per race, at some unknown level, at some unknown track, in a car that you can't set up, in a field where you cannot determine your position by qualification, without any means of practicing to setup your car, learn the track layout, or find out how you new car (whatever they deem) is going to behave in a particular curve or road condition. Then when you start driving, with steering that feels like it is rubber shocked, you get seem to get bashed by every AI driver you go by on your way to the front.

My comparison then was in readjusting to GT5 and to the real world. It took as much effort to unlearn to drive GRID style as it did to learn it.

Even with all that I did try it again before I returned it and it was STILL a disappointment - I said a step backward for Codemaster; and like I said in my previous post, each of these factors reduced the fun factor of the game for me (and others), so I did not care to continue with the "game".

When I was playing it, I won almost everything I entered, sometimes too easily. So I could win with regularity, though I do admit hitting the RESET button a few times.

Now read this carefully - I did NOT enjoy the wins, I was disappointed with the poor steering support, I was disappointed with the poor car handling and poor physics engine (drafted straight out of DiRT), I did not enjoy getting bashed by the stupid AI drivers, I did not enjoy the racing formats, I did not enjoy the damage modeling, I did not enjoy not practicing - and no choice to do so, I did NOT enjoy the game. It had NOTHING to do with being able to win - that was easy. It had everything to do with a sub-par game that was touted by the marketing material and the trade magazines to be a competitor to GT5 - NOT. Like I said previously - I set my expectations way too high from all of the reviews and marketing material I read.

Don't add words to this and don't take any away. Plan and simple - to me, the game sucked canal water, so I took it back with NO apology.

I could win, but my biggest loss was the 40 dollars that I lost because I should have resold in to Craig's list. So, if you feel the need to berate me or my opinion, take it out on my obvious stupidity and waste of resources in my initial expectations, my purchase of the game, and then my return at a loss to Gamestop.

"Nuff said". Oh, and if you don't know who that quote if from, check out the Fantastic Four quotes fromt the 1960 - yeah, I did that too.

1. The initiation to qualifying has been if I recall in every toca game..It's fun, there is no pressure to win, just hop in the car and drive..whats wrong with that..if you crash, hit the start button and restart..no biggie.

2. the steering although frustrating to setup and takes up an unacceptable 15-20 mins(sarcasm) is just fine when you find the setup you like...I am 100% satisfied with it after some tweaking...again no biggie.

3. The AI although not perfect provide some really good and intense races..they overtake when given a chance, mess up when pressured(not always), some move over while some are aggressive. I've had great races even in San Fran without much contact...If you dont just dive down the inside into every corner and expect the cars to move over you will find the AI is actually really quite well done.

4. I honestly dont understand the anger people have with the physics..nowhere did codemasters ever say this was a sim...And although not a sim and leaning more towards arcade side, the physics work well and I find are enjoyeable even though I have in the past not been a fan of arcade racers....

5. Not sure what you want..this game does offer different tiers of racing with several choices of cars once you buy them that you can race...And if you havent figured it out this game isnt about setting up a car, doing lap after lap on a track to practice but it is mainly just about the racing and being part of a team which this game does better than just about any other I've ever played...that includes all the major sims in the last 10-15 years.IMO

you say that you dont like being thrown into a race/track you dont know much about or the way the cars behave...You can always do a lap or two, get to know the layout of the tracks(not that hard to do) and then simply hit the start button and restart the race...thats what I do and once in the race if something happens I simply use my rweind feature and continue from where I wish...at first I hated the idea of being able to do that but what a wonderful tool to save frustration and enhance the fun factor...

Also on a side note..I highly doubt the people that say they win with ease in this game...and if so then you cannot be racing with all the assists turned off and racing on extreme cause it's quite challenging to go through the field quickly enough so that you dont lose ground on the leaders...

 

[sxboyd]

1. The initiation to qualifying has been if I recall in every toca game..It's fun, there is no pressure to win, just hop in the car and drive..whats wrong with that..if you crash, hit the start button and restart..no biggie.

2. the steering although frustrating to setup and takes up an unacceptable 15-20 mins(sarcasm) is just fine when you find the setup you like...I am 100% satisfied with it after some tweaking...again no biggie.

3. The AI although not perfect provide some really good and intense races..they overtake when given a chance, mess up when pressured(not always), some move over while some are aggressive. I've had great races even in San Fran without much contact...If you dont just dive down the inside into every corner and expect the cars to move over you will find the AI is actually really quite well done.

4. I honestly dont understand the anger people have with the physics..nowhere did codemasters ever say this was a sim...And although not a sim and leaning more towards arcade side, the physics work well and I find are enjoyeable even though I have in the past not been a fan of arcade racers....

5. Not sure what you want..this game does offer different tiers of racing with several choices of cars once you buy them that you can race...And if you havent figured it out this game isnt about setting up a car, doing lap after lap on a track to practice but it is mainly just about the racing and being part of a team which this game does better than just about any other I've ever played...that includes all the major sims in the last 10-15 years.IMO

you say that you dont like being thrown into a race/track you dont know much about or the way the cars behave...You can always do a lap or two, get to know the layout of the tracks(not that hard to do) and then simply hit the start button and restart the race...thats what I do and once in the race if something happens I simply use my rweind feature and continue from where I wish...at first I hated the idea of being able to do that but what a wonderful tool to save frustration and enhance the fun factor...

Also on a side note..I highly doubt the people that say they win with ease in this game...and if so then you cannot be racing with all the assists turned off and racing on extreme cause it's quite challenging to go through the field quickly enough so that you dont lose ground on the leaders...

Yawn. All that still did not convince me to be NOT to be disappointed. I asked the readers not to add or subtract from my words. I am not angry, the word is DISAPPOINTED. I did not call it a sim, I only compared it to GT because the marketing material and trade rags had already taken it there. Oh, and for the steering wheel support - how much do you enjoy having to operatwe the buttons standing on your head or listening to your steering wheel hum because GRID leaves it turned, with force, against the lock - nice touch. You are easier to please than I, because the steering never set up to my satisfaction, and it would start and stop in all different angles - tell me yours doesn't. Like I said, maybe my expectations are too high - I expect more from Codemaster, especially on a platform as good as the PS3 with the kind of steering wheel supported in so many of the other games that were even on the PS2.

You like the game - keep it, enjoy it, play it until you fingers bleed, then tell everyone how much you like it. I did NOT like it, I played it, I took it back because I was DISAPPOINTED and remain so, and I told people what I thought about it so that those that are LIKE-MINDED don't have to go through the same DISAPPOINTMENT. NOw, really, why is SO hard to understand and accept?

 

[czechmate]

Yawn. All that still did not convince me to be NOT to be disappointed. I asked the readers not to add or subtract from my words. I am not angry, the word is DISAPPOINTED. I did not call it a sim, I only compared it to GT because the marketing material and trade rags had already taken it there. Oh, and for the steering wheel support - how much do you enjoy having to operatwe the buttons standing on your head or listening to your steering wheel hum because GRID leaves it turned, with force, against the lock - nice touch. You are easier to please than I, because the steering never set up to my satisfaction, and it would start and stop in all different angles - tell me yours doesn't. Like I said, maybe my expectations are too high - I expect more from Codemaster, especially on a platform as good as the PS3 with the kind of steering wheel supported in so many of the other games that were even on the PS2.

You like the game - keep it, enjoy it, play it until you fingers bleed, then tell everyone how much you like it. I did NOT like it, I played it, I took it back because I was DISAPPOINTED and remain so, and I told people what I thought about it so that those that are LIKE-MINDED don't have to go through the same DISAPPOINTMENT. NOw, really, why is SO hard to understand and accept?

My steering wheel only did funny things in the demo but I havent had 1 problem with it since I bought the game...The only problem I've had is a tire screeching sound that didnt go away until I started a new race..annoying but it only happened once so far.

It's not that it's hard to understand or accept but your reasons for not liking the game are not actual faults in the game but it seems like you went on a mission to find anything in the game that would annoy you...stupid AI..if you race smart and dont put yourself in situations where YOU KNOW you'll get hit you would enjoy the game much more...physics..it's an arcade racer..how can you even complain

Gameplay..again..it's an arcade racer and with that you dont neccessarly get or have the need to setup your cars or do 100's of practice laps to perfect your line around a track...The races are fun and varied, courses are fun with enough variations in them to make them a different challenge from the others. There is a nice variety of cars(all of which handle differently) no matter how subtle that might be...but it's noticeable.

Another problem I have is you then go and post the faults this game has and sway some peoples minds as to wether or not to buy it..It would be fine if you had justified criticism but your reasons are more from someone who failed to do any research about the game prior to it's release and someone who is trying to make the game something it was never intended to be...if you did you would have known exactly what this game was about.

It's like if I went out and bought COD4 and then called the game crap cause it wasnt anything like Quake. You gotta play the game for what it is and what it's meant to be and not for what you would have liked it to be.

I give up..some people just hate to hate without reason or logic and it's impossible to argue.

 

[sxboyd]

My steering wheel only did funny things in the demo but I havent had 1 problem with it since I bought the game...The only problem I've had is a tire screeching sound that didnt go away until I started a new race..annoying but it only happened once so far.

It's not that it's hard to understand or accept but your reasons for not liking the game are not actual faults in the game but it seems like you went on a mission to find anything in the game that would annoy you...stupid AI..if you race smart and dont put yourself in situations where YOU KNOW you'll get hit you would enjoy the game much more...physics..it's an arcade racer..how can you even complain

Gameplay..again..it's an arcade racer and with that you dont neccessarly get or have the need to setup your cars or do 100's of practice laps to perfect your line around a track...The races are fun and varied, courses are fun with enough variations in them to make them a different challenge from the others. There is a nice variety of cars(all of which handle differently) no matter how subtle that might be...but it's noticeable.

Another problem I have is you then go and post the faults this game has and sway some peoples minds as to wether or not to buy it..It would be fine if you had justified criticism but your reasons are more from someone who failed to do any research about the game prior to it's release and someone who is trying to make the game something it was never intended to be...if you did you would have known exactly what this game was about.

It's like if I went out and bought COD4 and then called the game crap cause it wasnt anything like Quake. You gotta play the game for what it is and what it's meant to be and not for what you would have liked it to be.

I give up..some people just hate to hate without reason or logic and it's impossible to argue.

I agree. The post to which you rep[lied wasn't even addressed to you, so why are you arguing. I bought it for what I thought it ws, but you don't seem to get the point. I wrote this for people that I think are like minded, and by the responses there are a lot of them - read the ENTIRE thread. There are very few of you defending GRID that adamantly. And my point again is that I (me, first person) was disappointed in the game, so I let others know what I disliked for those that are like minded (those who really enjoy driving/racing simulators - NOT arcade racers). Why is that so wrong and why is that so hard for you to understand? I think I was misled by all the marketing hype and gaming magazines, so I wanted to let the LIKE-MINDED get a review of some of the things that matter to us - on a GT forum. I had read the articles in doing my research to see if the game was suited for me - the articles were written by people like-minded of you, without regard to the finer points of driving games. If I had wanted to just start a fray, I would have gone up to the GRID forum and posted the article.

I justified and enumerated my reasons for being disappointed in the game.

And why do you keep insisting on ignoring what I really said and keep putting in your own emotions. I NEVER said or wrote "HATE" anywhere. Again, the word is DISAPPOINTED. Let me say that again. DISAPPOINTED DISAPPOINTED DISAPPOINTED DISAPPOINTED DISAPPOINTED DISAPPOINTED DISAPPOINTED DISAPPOINTED. Maybe you wil learn to stick to the points when you take debating or speech in your next grade, because, so far, you haven't dissuaded me on any of the points that I made originally. Go back to your PS2 and play TOCA Race Driver or Colin McCrae Rally series (any of them), then play GRID. They all come from Codemaster - the other games are fun to play and challenging. I still think that GRID was/is a disappointment and does not measure up to the hype it received in the marketing material or the gaming magazines - which, by the way, compoared it to GT. Is any of this beginning to sink in? If not, it doesn't matter - we live in different worlds and in different generations - just like the games that we play. You in GRID, I in GT; that suits me just fine.

 

[homeforsummer]

1. The initiation to qualifying has been if I recall in every toca game..It's fun, there is no pressure to win, just hop in the car and drive..whats wrong with that..if you crash, hit the start button and restart..no biggie.

How do you mean about the qualifying? In every previous TOCA or RD game qualifying is reasonably important to a good race result, and especially in the TOCA games because the handling was more edgy which made fighting through the pack a risk. I'd even say on TOCA 2 it would have been almost impossible to win some races on the hardest difficulty level without qualifying, as the AI drivers were very nearly as quick as you at full pace.

-----------------------------------------

I think on basic terms, the trouble I and a number of other people have here with GRID is that it's a "Jack of all trades, master of none" game. It certainly isn't a sim, but by using real cars and real series it's invited comparisons as such. It is an arcade game, but it doesn't do the arcade thing any better than many other arcade games. Finally, if you're used to previous TOCA and RD games it's disappointing because those games managed to be fun and still managed to be realistic.

I don't think I can put it any more simply than that. For those who like GRID, great, enjoy it, but on many levels it's a disappointment for me, and certainly not the jump that Codemasters could have made developing for such an advanced platform.

I've mentioned this last point a few times already, but I bet in the life of this forum people have never panned a Codemasters race (or rally) title like they're panning this one. This alone is enough to suggest that somewhere along the line something has gone wrong.

 

[sxboyd]

How do you mean about the qualifying? In every previous TOCA or RD game qualifying is reasonably important to a good race result, and especially in the TOCA games because the handling was more edgy which made fighting through the pack a risk. I'd even say on TOCA 2 it would have been almost impossible to win some races on the hardest difficulty level without qualifying, as the AI drivers were very nearly as quick as you at full pace.

-----------------------------------------

I think on basic terms, the trouble I and a number of other people have here with GRID is that it's a "Jack of all trades, master of none" game. It certainly isn't a sim, but by using real cars and real series it's invited comparisons as such. It is an arcade game, but it doesn't do the arcade thing any better than many other arcade games. Finally, if you're used to previous TOCA and RD games it's disappointing because those games managed to be fun and still managed to be realistic.

I don't think I can put it any more simply than that. For those who like GRID, great, enjoy it, but on many levels it's a disappointment for me, and certainly not the jump that Codemasters could have made developing for such an advanced platform.

I've mentioned this last point a few times already, but I bet in the life of this forum people have never panned a Codemasters race (or rally) title like they're panning this one. This alone is enough to suggest that somewhere along the line something has gone wrong.

Thanks for putting into a nutshell what some of the people on this thread refuse to accept and what makes the rest of us so DISAPPOINTED (not hate) in Codemaster's endeavor. Bravo!!!

 

[RedOak]

I've mentioned this last point a few times already, but I bet in the life of this forum people have never panned a Codemasters race (or rally) title like they're panning this one. This alone is enough to suggest that somewhere along the line something has gone wrong.

something has gone wrong... or the industry has changed, Codemaster's focus groups showed them their customers do not want a realistic game and they adjusted, as they did with DIRT (which was a really fun game). Perhaps its you guys that are demanding too much of something that isn't even for you...

Personally, at this very moment, i put Gran Turismo 5 prologue and GRiD next to one another, and from an observer's point of view, i see absolutely no reason why i would choose GT5p. And the gaming experience is the same... while in GRID i find myself struggling to keep a position at all times, stuck in a pack of angry and noisy cars... in GT5p, every cars are in line, one after the other, with the leader so far ahead that the race is simply boring and monotonous.

... and this comes from a guy who does 2h stints in IL2 Sturmovik in full realism to drop bombs in germany, or flights from Madrid to Paris in a T-38c in FS2004... i know realism, and i know simulation... but the focus of those games is nonexistent in GT5p...

as a final though, its been mentionned that GRID is a "jack of all trades", a "bit of everything, master of none"... i'd have to say GT5p is the same thing... It was to be the most beautiful racer out there, but only the cars are nice, the rest looks terrible... it does a few car sounds well and the rest sounds extremely bad, some car physics are almost spot on while others are completely forgotten (jumping/landings comes to mind), It offers a huge lot of cars, but only 20% of those cars are really important and useful...

like i said before, if PD were to buy a copy of GRID, look at it for all its worth, and implement all the vision that was put in it, back in GT5, you guys would be playing a Gran Turismo which'd had hot steamy group sex with GTR2 and rfactor... but since PD's focus is on realistic cars with total disregard to real racing, you get a bastard child that's overgrown its time on the industry...

Perfect example: people used to blame the GT's bad sounds on the overdated engine and weak Playstation 2 console... and now that we're on PS3, with PD's brand new engine... and sounds are still terrible... its time to question what the hell's going on ... maybe... just maybe...spending 6 months and 5 people's time on a car implementation is perhaps bad product management... food for thought i suppose.

I played both, and right now... GT's gathering dust; i prefer returning to Forza2 for its online capabilities and customization and car selection (it has ferraris...and lambos... and porsches...) or GRID for its sheer fun factor.

 

[Sa!!yz~Rage]

If you haven't figured it out already, that puts me over the 60 mark.

Well you have me there.... I'm a mere 46...

Not offended on the name thing at all, no worries. I do think it's amusing when other players want to be PSN friends because they think I'm a girl.

Again I wasn't specifying you in general, I have no idea how you drive in GRiD or any other game for that matter. I mean the game in itself is pretty easy to drive, driving single player sure winning everything isn't a hard task. Online in the open 'pits' well that's another story only because it's open season on anyone that wins a lot.

Oh I'll be the first to admit that GRiD has issues, mostly with the MP portion that's for sure. That pretty much ruins the game right there, hell now they release a patch and it's breaking the game even more. Nice work CM. If you don't like features of the game for whatever reason, hey that's your purgative for sure, I mean what game does anyone like totally anymore. I think the last game I played like that was Quake II. 👍

The best driving MP driving/racing game I ever played was Viper Racing. It was great. It has great damage, if you ever played that game I'm sure you liked it. It did have issues with SB cards though.

It took as much effort to unlearn to drive GRID style as it did to learn it.

👍

Yep, no doubt about that. I put GT5P back on and I thought perhaps my hand/eye internal wiring was shot. The tendency to over-steer everything because of the power-sliding you do in GRiD is pretty funny.

(But you still watched the replays, right? I mean that's pretty cool you gotta admit.)

 

[homeforsummer]

*Snipped for easier scrolling*

For someone on a GT-focused forum you don't seem too keen on GT.

Maybe the market has changed, and if that is the case then although I can do nothing about it, I deplore it. Fair enough if Codemasters wants to attract a new fan base similar to NFS, but they've built up a loyal fan base of over ten years on the back of realistic racing titles, so don't be so surprised that the game you apparently are quite fond of it certainly not a lot of other people's cup of tea. I wouldn't say "it isn't even for me" - it's a racing game, and I'm a gamer who almost exclusively plays racing games.

The sound in GT5P has been discussed in more detail in a number of other threads, but I will say I think you're being a little critical of it. It's certainly an improvement on GT4, especially if you play it through some decent speakers. Ardius made a good comment in one of the other active threads that the sound is probably realistic, they just haven't taken into account that it needs to be boosted to give it more an "in car" feel rather than watching an "in car" on TV.

The racing in GT is much better than it used to be, the AI has improved, but now that the game is online I find comments on the AI pretty much irrelevant. And once private rooms have arrived, it's critics won't even have the "punters always spoil the racing" line to fall back on any more.

I'd suggest that GT5P isn't "jack of all trades, master of none", because it has never pretended to be anything other than a driving simulator, which happens to use racing as a way of making credits to buy more cars. This, it does very well indeed, and because it has a focused USP then it's a master of it's trade. GRID has numerous different series and shares it's physics engine with DIRT, which makes it compromised from the start. It then tries to combine real series with made up series, as well as NFS-style drifting. Although it's great having this all in one game, it doesn't do any of them particularly well compared to specialised titles.

And before you point out that most people won't have all the different titles, while this may be true for the casual gamer, any racing game fan (like myself, and presumably yourself) will already have many other racing titles which will usually cover all these disciplines. So for the sake of changing the disc from one game to another, again it's compromised.

A final note - saying GT has overgrown it's time in the industry is probably a little off the mark, considering it's one of the top selling racing games every time a new one hits the shelves - someone obviously likes it. And irrespective of it's content it's obviously a commercial success 👍

 

[Wolfe]

Fair enough if Codemasters wants to attract a new fan base similar to NFS, but they've built up a loyal fan base of over ten years on the back of realistic racing titles, so don't be so surprised that the game you apparently are quite fond of it certainly not a lot of other people's cup of tea.

You're right, Codemasters has a loyal fan base that loves them for their "realistic driving sims." I just don't know where they got that idea, looking at how floaty, vague, and arcadey the Race Driver games have always been. What gets me is that the Race Driver games were never a threat to Gran Turismo or Forza, and now that CM has made the game NFSroStreet should have been, with grippy, sharp, responsive handling, everyone thinks it's worthless floaty crap. It doesn't bother me that GRID isn't popular (at least around here), but it is a bit perplexing considering it's the first and only Race Driver game I've deemed worthy of a purchase.

I guess mediocrity sells.

A final note - saying GT has overgrown it's time in the industry is probably a little off the mark, considering it's one of the top selling racing games every time a new one hits the shelves - someone obviously likes it. And irrespective of it's content it's obviously a commercial success 👍

The ingenious thing about GT is that the series has established itself as the benchmark for driving simulators in the minds of reviewers and the greater gaming public, yet reviewers and the greater gaming public have no idea how to drive or how cars are supposed to handle. To them, difficulty = realism.

Polyphony Digital could spew garbage onto a disc and it'd sell millions as long as it looked pretty and had a lot of licensed cars to choose from (something they've done once before, in my opinion). I just hope they don't squander too much development time on those two qualities with GT5.

 

[TigJackson]

*dribble out*
Polyphony Digital could spew garbage onto a disc and it'd sell millions as long as it looked pretty and had a lot of licensed cars to choose from*mots*

If you really feel that Polyphony Digital spewed out garbage, and still sold millions of copies, I must wonder how you feel about the fact that Konami's Waste Management sized steaming pile of excrement, aka...EPR, managed to sell any copies at all?

 

[RedOak]

For the sake of answering the relevant bits, i've condensed the quotes:

For someone on a GT-focused forum you don't seem too keen on GT.

Thank you for not flaming. I am a big fan of the GT series, since the first one. Unfortunately, as you pointed out... the "not too keen on GT" mention is also true, when it comes to GT5prologue. I find myself, as a big follower of the series, to a quite uncomfortable crossroad. When i started playing GT1, i was 16, i had no clue what i was doing in life, had barely my driving license... now

i'm sitting in my living room at 29 well anchored in the gaming industry, with GT5 Prologue in my hands... and i hardly see the point... let me explain why, by answering your quotes:

The sound in GT5P has been discussed in more detail in a number of other threads, but I will say I think you're being a little critical of it. It's certainly an improvement on GT4, especially if you play it through some decent speakers. Ardius made a good comment in one of the other active threads that the sound is probably realistic, they just haven't taken into account that it needs to be boosted to give it more an "in car" feel rather than watching an "in car" on TV.

The racing in GT is much better than it used to be, the AI has improved, but now that the game is online I find comments on the AI pretty much irrelevant. And once private rooms have arrived, it's critics won't even have the "punters always spoil the racing" line to fall back on any more.

To put it simply, This is exactly why i think PD lost touch with their license...
They improved a lot of things yes... but that's not good enough to be "the leader" in the industry... especially since there are a lot of games out there that do things better... this is why i think Gran Turismo went from being the leader in the genre, to the dead last... they literally (and by looking at the market for the past 6 years, seriously, this is a FACT) have stopped innovating. If you look closely, you'll notice that since GT3, the new era of graphics/physics... nothing's changed in the license... absolutely nothing. Its the same game system, same mechanics, same menu hierarchy (even if it changes graphically), same "licenses", same AI behaviors, same car selection (aside from the few new models + Ferrari) ... same everything... in fact, they not only stopped innovating, but the rest of the industry followed suit, emulated and got better at doing everything GT was best at. And i do mean everything! there isn't a single thing of relevance in GT5p that i don't see done better in another game on the market. Not a single thing. This of course saddens me a great deal, because I've invested a lot of time in this license...

A final note - saying GT has overgrown it's time in the industry is probably a little off the mark, considering it's one of the top selling racing games every time a new one hits the shelves - someone obviously likes it. And irrespective of it's content it's obviously a commercial success 👍

That i will agree with, gran turismo has sold a ****load of copies... however, i'd like to point out that 3 of its main products (GT2, GT3 and GT5p) have all sold at some time or another as part of the playstation bundle.. so technically, everyone who actually bought a playstation 2/3 got the game... that doesn't make them fans of the franchise... those numbers are cheated (as with other products and licenses of course). But regardless, Gran Turismo is the champion in sales.

 

[RedOak]

Polyphony Digital could spew garbage onto a disc and it'd sell millions as long as it looked pretty and had a lot of licensed cars to choose from ...

not to make a mockery of your quote... but at this point, i find that GT5P fits somewhat in this description...

 

[myke6699]

After picking up GRID and finally mastering the control, I spent the better part of week playing GRID and for the first time in 3 months that I've completely abandoned Prologue from my daily routine. But today I got the itch and pulled my G25 out and spent 2.5 hours doing mindless time-trial in an Audi R8 and a 10 lap Suzuka (arcade) race with a R35 GT-R. I concede to the fact that GT5 will never provide me with the same quality and variety of racing that I get from GRID. But what I don't get from GRID is the feeling of actually driving a vehicle. Using a steering wheel and turning off the traction and stability control and using merely an S2/S3 tires, there's a sense of gestalt than a game like GRID no matter how much fun it is, would never give me. Could I live with just GT5? If I had to choose between the two, I'd opt for Prologue but that's mainly because I love cars and GRID although a car racing game, isn't quite a celebration of automobile. But the cool thing is I don't have to choose. Until the full GT5 makes its way into my daily schedule, I have enough time for both.

 

[homeforsummer]

You're right, Codemasters has a loyal fan base that loves them for their "realistic driving sims." I just don't know where they got that idea, looking at how floaty, vague, and arcadey the Race Driver games have always been

I didn't call Codemaster's games driving sims, I called them realistic race titles Subtle but significant difference. The RD series at least isn'ta simulator, just a good racing series. I'd say TOCA and TOCA 2 were more simulators, and TOCA WTC was the first more arcadey game.

That said, the handling in all of those games is better than GRID. I can see why they changed it in a way, as the first two games were maybe a little inaccessible for the masses, but it didn't need significant changing from the RD titles on the PS2. Maybe the handling is just a symptom of the game engine, and they're doing what they can with what they have to work with.

But far as I'm concerned RDs on PS2 > GRID

*Snipped again for convenience*

You make a very convincing point, so much so that I'm not going to argue. When you put it like that, I can see how little development GT has actually received. I guess I'm holding out hope for the full GT5 being more innovative. That said, I'm just a big fan of the series and I do enjoy playing the game, the challenge, the multitude of cars, and now the online mode too. If GT5 wasn't a significant step up I would be disappointed, but I will still buy the game because for me it's still the best *driving* (not racing) game available.

However, I still won't be buying GRID because I just don't enjoy it, and though it might be more innovative than GT it's disappointing to me after every previous RD and TOCA game 👍

I've only had brief goes on Forza/Project Gotham, of the two I prefer Forza because it's the more GT-style game, but I have to admit I do like the more extensive and visible modifications you can do, mixed with the pretty realistic handling. The actual driving I still don't like as much as GT though

 

[RedOak]

I can see how little development GT has actually received. I guess I'm holding out hope for the full GT5 being more innovative. That said, I'm just a big fan of the series and I do enjoy playing the game, the challenge, the multitude of cars, and now the online mode too. If GT5 wasn't a significant step up I would be disappointed, but I will still buy the game because for me it's still the best *driving* (not racing) game available.

You and I brother, you and I!

 

[Hun200kmh]

I've been reading this thread for the last few days (it's quite a read ), never wanting to write because I still have no clear opinion about GRID.

I bought the PS3 a few weeks ago only, and I bought both games (GT5P and GRID) at the same time. So far, I've been playing GT5P, my 12 year old son has been playing GRID. I only "tested" this one briefly, didn't understand the physics of the cars and put it down. I'll try it later, maybe after I'm bored of playing GT5P online (I don't play it offline anymore).

I also would like to say that I'm not a fan of any game series, I just take them from what they have to offer, and if they have anything worthwhile to offer, I'll buy them and play them to death.

I never knew or played the original TOCA games (never had a PS), or even GT1 and GT2, so I can't comment on those.

When I had GT3 (by far, the game I spent more time with), I remember that I tried the first Race Driver, didn't like it and never went back.


So, apart from GT3, the only racing games I owned, kept and played for a long time were two "underdog" games that grew on me. "Le Mans 24 Hours" (still the best there is portraying a full LM experience) and an obscure rally title called "V-Rally 3". I tried CMR3 and also one WRC title, didn't like either of them, so I never bought any of the other games in both these series.

In 2005 I was craving for GT4 to be released. When it finally was, I remember I went to pick it up at midnight and than played it until 6 AM that same night.

But I always felt that there was something wrong with it. Sure, we had more cars, we had more tracks, unbelievable graphics, but ... once I made the license tests and the missions, it was more a question of collecting money, cars and trophies to reach 100% (which I did). The physics felt wrong, the AI cars were unbearable in their drone-like attitude and their lack of awareness of the human player. I never felt I was racing in that game, again I was just driving the cars to get money, cars and trophies.

Once I got GT4 to 100%, all the cars and all the races/series done, I never put it out of the shelf again.

Then I bought EPR, for the PS2 also. Much smaller game, but with an incredible physics engine. Also, a game that rewarded clean driving (and punished wall-riding, punting AI cars, etc). Another "underdog" game that grew on me. But, eventually, its appeal also faded when there was nothing new to do with it.

Then I found Race Driver 3 and its online capabilities. Sure it was arcadey in its physics, but the larger grids, the ability to play against human players (with excellent online features and customization), that alone kept me busy until a few weeks ago, when I bought the PS3.

Now, as I said, I'm playing GT5P. Of course it's a small game, if you only consider its offline A,B, C and S chalenges. But ... even the offline mode made me think that, for the first time since GT3, Polyphony Digital really raised the bar. Concerning two of the major downsides of GT4: a) physics; b) AI general behaviour and especially awareness of the human player.

So, I now have high expectations for the full GT5.

About GRID, from the litle I still know of this game, I only think that we're not talking about a "TOCA Race Driver" game anymore. Now, we're facing a game with almost no real world tracks (TRD3 had a full load of them), without pits, fuel and tyre wear, tuning of the cars, a wide range of cars and race series to race (Aussie V8s , Formula 3, Caterhams, GT, Oval Racing, DTM, Classics, etc, etc).

What did we get? Better graphics, sure (that was expected); a few Le Mans prototypes and the Le Mans track with day/night cycle; and ... drifting contests

IF Le Mans was done properly, I would buy the game just to race it. But ... no pits, no tyres to change, no fuel to refill ??? Le Mans in GRID is a joke, as it was in GT4, only for different reasons.

So, the only thing I can say so far is that:

a) as a Le Mans fan, I'm dissapointed;

b) as a TOCA Race Driver player, I'm dissapointed;

c) my kid loves to play it.

d) Maybe I'll give it a serious try one day;

e) So far, I'm not interested in playing it. Not over GT5P online, that's for sure.

 

[Sa!!yz~Rage]

I don't know what the hell CM are doing, but GRiD is blowing out like a bad Michelin..... Good lord, I don't think the game was even close to release ready.

(that doesn't mean I'm going back on my posts, still like it, but geeze fix it already) 👍

Guess I'll tool around in the 2007 for a while...

 

[Bellzie]

is anybody else finding the cars are almost undrivable????

P.S. grids version of le mans is a joke. Night/day changes great but in 20 minutes??

also has anybody done the audi timed laps?? the fastest quali lap of 2008 was 3'18.etc

Kinda makes me more desperate for GT5

 

[Sa!!yz~Rage]

is anybody else finding the cars are almost undrivable????

Nope, cars are easy to drive.....it's just that 90% of the drives in public races are A-Holes. 👍 You think the 'punters' here are bad? HA! Nothing compared to the guys on GRiD, they're in a class all their own.

CM has to take a lot of the blame for how bad the MP is, I mean the way they set the race starts up is just stupid. Standing starts with 90 degree turns and worse with morons that have no interest in racing?. And there is absolutely NOTHING in place to stop them. Idiots!

The solutions is so simple on the public boards. Licensing! Period. And make it f$%kin hard!!!!! Like so hard that one in a thousand might be able to pass!!! YA!!! And even then once you pass, you have to surrender the deed to your house for a period of six months. God I hate the MP on that game sooooooo much!! 🤬

And CM really blow with PS3 support, it sucks big time.

But ya, cars are pretty easy to drive man, have at it.

 

[91hondawagon]

But one of those 1 in a 1000 people will post their save file on the Internet. Then, the morons will all be able to drive in every race with every car, and we'll be in exactly the same spot we are now.

I assume that most members with a GTP tag are interested in good, clean, exciting racing, no? Racers like this (not necessarily with a tag, I mean any player who likes good racing) are Gran Turismo's primary fans. The way to do best in GT is be as skilled a driver as possible.

In GRID, being the cleanest driver isn't the best way to win. If someone tries to pass in GRID, spin them into a wall! It's effective and easy, the threat of losing a position is gone, and their car is totaled for the rest of the race. When a driving game is released that encourages aggressive driving through it's physics, gameplay, and marketing, it attracts those to whom it has the most appeal.

I am not a fan of rallying at all. Therefore, I will not buy DiRT.
I am not a fan of street racing. Therefore, I will not buy Need for Speed.
I am not a fan of demolition. Therefore, I will not buy FlatOut.

I am a fan of realistic sim driving, which is why I buy GT series games. GRID is certainly not a realistic sim, so why would I buy it? The same goes both ways: if someone is prefers flashy arcade racing over realistic sim racing, then why would they buy Gran Turismo? There are certainly some racers who treat GT's online like it's a crash-happy arcade game, but from my experience, GRID racers are far more reckless.

GRID is for fans of crashes, drifting, and aggressive high-speed racing, and GT isn't. Many GRID fans like to race aggressively, which is fine, because that's partly what GRID is built on. Again, it's how games are designed and marketed to consumers: you know what you're going to get. Don't expect to have tea parties in Grand Theft Auto IV. Likewise, don't expect to find clean and respectful racing in GRID.

 

[Biggles]

Wow, this thread really has taken on some weight!

Hun200km: you give a very fair assessment of the overall picture. The simple truth is no one game has so far offered the complete experience. Each has had different flaws & strengths.

In one sense GT5P is a colossal disappointment: the same boring, chore-like offline game-play, weak AI, poor collision physics & lack of damage that seems to show an inability or unwillingness to re-think what is now an old & tired approach. On the other hand, the physics have been hugely improved which makes driving in GT a new, more realistic & more challenging experience - significantly superior to that offered by any other console game. It also leaves the hope that PD might actually have an awareness that, in the next version of the title, they need to seriously tackle the other shortcomings of the GT series.

The GT5P online game, although presently disappointing, also offers a glimpse of the possibility that in the future, GT racing against online human opponents may provide all the challenge & variety, that has been previously missing from the GT experience.

I have only tried the GRID demo, so I can't comment on the whole game. If I had the time to tackle a number of different racing games, I might play GRID & appreciate the positive features the game offers: dramatic graphics, damage & an exciting racing "atmosphere", & not worry too much about the lack or realism or depth of the physics. As I don't have that much time, I prefer to concentrate on GT5P with its more complex & challenging physics model & try to develop the skills to compete successfully online in a variety of different cars. It is my hope that the arrival of new downloadable tracks (Nurburgring for eg.) will broaden the content of Prologue to tide me over until the arrival of GT5.

 

[CyborgGT]

How are Prologue's driving physics compared to ToCA 3's "Pro Simulation" physics? If this has already been asked, just link to the post. Thanks.

 

[Hun200kmh]

How are Prologue's driving physics compared to ToCA 3's "Pro Simulation" physics? If this has already been asked, just link to the post. Thanks.

It's hard to compare, really. I like sim physics, and TRD3 "Pro Sim" was just same old TRD arcade physics, only without ABS and TCS. Harder to drive than in "Sim" mode, but the general "floaty" feeling of the cars, especially while cornering, was still there.

The only PS2 games you can compare to GT5P - physicswise - are GT4 and Enthusia, or EPR as it's usually called.

 

[homeforsummer]

I assume that most members with a GTP tag are interested in good, clean, exciting racing, no? Racers like this (not necessarily with a tag, I mean any player who likes good racing) are Gran Turismo's primary fans. The way to do best in GT is be as skilled a driver as possible.

You make an interesting point there - I agree, and at that for that reason competing in a race in GT is more like actual racing in real life, in that (if you're racing against clean racers) the emphasis is on clean racing, skillful passing, clever tactics etc.

There isn't this incentive in GRID and because of the factors you mentioned, it tends to attract the more agressive, arcade-focused drivers who aren't adverse to a little punting.

I think if PD do innovate a little with the full GT, it will be unbeatable for those of us who like genuine racing. In an ideal world for me it would combine everything we love about GT, with slightly better AI to make the offline stuff more entertaining, and the more in-depth tuning options of Forza, allowing you to really personalise your cars.

 

[Sa!!yz~Rage]

Grid.....drivers who aren't adverse to a little punting.

That's like saying a nuclear detonation might possibly jostle your furniture around a bit.