GT6 Duel of the Week #70: The Grand Finale (well, not really)

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by CowboyAce57, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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  2. Obelisk

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    Wow, MrWaflz55, you didn't have to show us a picture of your mother.
     
  3. MisterWaffles

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    Listen up you absurdly large vertically-placed rectangular prism, Aunt Jemima would never associate with a conversion kit-car as dastardly as that! How dare you?!?!?!?!?!? :lol:
     
  4. Obelisk

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    I have never seen someone refer to me like that. Bravo for cheering me up on a bad day.
     
  5. Arp 273

    Arp 273

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    For me it was easy this week. I prefer the Pontiac Firebird Trans Am '78 based on looks, sound, customization and general driving behaviour. I even sort of like it's 4 speed gear box, it has a usable first gear and on the tracks I tested on 4th was just long enough.

    Both cars provided some nice and challenging races in arcade as they have slow acceleration and are on CS tires while most of the AI is on SH. Lots of mid field battles, sometimes between 5 or 6 cars.

    The Trans Am will stay in my favorites list while the R31 has already been sold..:cool:
     
  6. Draggon

    Draggon

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    So for my completely subjective seat-of-the-pants review, despite a half second faster TT in the Skyline, the T/A is my choice. More fun to drive, beautiful exhaust note, and looks gorgeous in Mayan red. Kept the T/A, sold the Skyline. :tup:
     
  7. Ryk

    Ryk

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    The Bandit vs The Mother of Godzilla. (Can't be any worse than Batman Vs Superman.)


    pontia.jpg
    ---

    Odd ball test the Firebird has loads of Paint chips- And a few options to have a Big Firebird sticker on the bonnet/hood. If you like Gold Paint, then you get Tan Leather Interior. And all the fun of a Fade to Pink interior trim from General Motors. If you like any other colour you have to make do with Black. (I actually pulled a couple of options, removing the rear spoiler and putting Gold Panels for the sun roof windows... And in the glove compartment, a portable printing kit, perfect for those on the fly businesscards you need when you are under cover as a private investigator.)

    The Nissan was a limited edition run of 800 cars and so the Iconic Blue Black colour was its version of the Big Flaming Chicken on the Pontiac.
    pn1.jpg
    Predictions...
    The Peak Power is about the same but the big factors are:-
    The R31 Nissan is 660lbs lighter... That is almost three of me!
    Chassis Rigidity - The Pontiac has a couple of chunks cut out of the roof and some greenhouse features swapped in.
    Torque - The Pontiac has almost twice as much as the Nissan. That could give it more or a catapult out of the slow stuff.
    pn2.jpg
    It is a bit too much of a catchweight fight to compare. 6.5 litre engine vs a 2 litre? Lets get to the track.


    Red Bull Ring Mini (4 laps)
    1m06.448 - 4m50.070 (Trans Am - CS)
    1m05.734 - 4m43.822 (Trans Am - CS)

    1m07.235 - 4m51.197 (GTS-R - CS)
    1m06.593 - 4m47.705 (GTS-R - CS)

    Pontiac was nice, the Engine rumbles with purpose, But the Lack of power means a Lack of speed so you never really feel on the edge of anything. Only 4 gears and things are very simple to drive. All in all a very well behaved docile car.

    The Skyline was eager but had a vice of overworking the fronts. Engine note was a sizzling Straight Six that made me think of a Supra more than a later GT-R. The Forward Weight Balance was the toughest part for me to drive around. The car didn't understeer dramatically but was much less corner friendly than the big lovable Pontiac.

    I like the look of the Skyline, Simple strong straight lines. The Firebird has a huge American layout, A really macho look to it but how on earth can such a big engine produce so little power? (Back in 1967 Cosworth managed to squeeze out 400bhp from just 3 litres- more than 10 years later and with a 6.5 litre V8 Pontiac can only get 215? - BUT the Pontiac has a fat widepower band The Nissan has a much smaller engine with a far more peaky power curve... So over the rev range the Pontiac is getting much closer to peakp ower, the Nissan is struggling when it is at the lower end of the rev range due to the Turbo boosting top end power.

    If the Nissan was better balanced then maybe but the Pontiac has a better balance, a fatter power delivery- The Weight advantage of the GTS-R is badly compremised by the all at the front weight distribution which cripples my ability to push hard in the car. The Pontiac felt like GT6 on Easy mode.

    Bit of a waffle, but The Nissan had too much of a hill to climb.
    poniws.jpg
    Win for the Firebird
     
  8. Cowboy

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    I'll start with the Skyline. The R30 and R31 aren't the most well known bunch, and also not the highest performing. However, the car is the amped up GTS-R version, or a homologation of of the touring version. In GT6, it's a bit of a disappointment with the horrendous understeer and sluggish attitude. It has the better sound in my opinion, and has some neat looks for a standard car.

    The Firebird. 219 HP of tire smoking, hair flying, beer smuggling greatness. And it has that legendary bird on the hood. I'm not being bias towards my choice here, but the Firebird has the better cornering ability but suffers with the shorter transmission. Other than that, this just seems to be the more fun car, not that I hate the R31 or anything like that. Anyways, my choice here is.....

    The Firebird.

    Both cars tested at Madrid, no aids except ABS 1, SH tires.

    R31: 1:48.436
    Firebird: 1:46.392

    And the votes:

    R31: 0
    Firebird: 9

    And the clear winner is.....

    02_front_right_high_800a.jpg
    The '78 Firebird Trans Am!!!

    Congrats to @pretend racer for setting a winning time of 1:42.801 in the Trans Am AND for setting the winning time of 1:43.440 in the R31. Boy, I can't remember the last time we had a landslide vote here. All we know is, Kaz will be very disappointed if he sees this.....​
     
  9. Cowboy

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    Gonna get this next one announced right away. This week I chose tuner cars, which if you don't know what that means, these are cars that are tuned. This week's duel is.....

    Evo6-2lMINES_p.jpg
    The 2000 Mine's Lancer Evolution VI

    vs

    tumblr_inline_nl94l8qiTw1sel6y9.jpg
    The 2004 Opera Performance S2000!!!


    Both cars are well known, 4WD vs FR, and maybe the ability to surprise. This week's time trial will be at Apricot Hill Reverse, the better version of the track in my opinion. So with that, let the battle begin.​
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  10. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Ha ! You managed to find a car I don't have in my Excel file :lol: The Opera S2000 being a pure track dedicated build. But the comparison here is definitely interesting, definitely glad to get some laps on it ;)
     
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  11. Obelisk

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    The Opera gets an instant vote in my book. S2ks are already excellent, and the Opera is a S2k that punishes faster cars.

    Also, was a staple of my 500pp SH touge runs.
     
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  12. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    I also think the Opera will get my vote to be honest. But I'll confirm after testing (and since I'm finished now with my Trial Mountain testings, I might get both on another course and / or give a go to the club's TT :) )
     
  13. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Super Tuner Battle! Mine's vs Opera. Which will prevail?

    For this week's episode, we are covering a battle between tuners. What are tuners you say? In the words of Cowboy, himself:

    In other words, these cars are stepped up from their stock counterparts! So the stakes are higher too! The loser in this battle will have his Battle Royale collar detonated!

    Let's begin!

    Apricot Hill Trial:
    Mine's Lancer - 1:32.432
    Opera S2000 - 1:30.547

    Rotenboden Trial:
    Mine's Lancer - 1:44.868
    Opera S2000 - 1:44.257

    SSR5 Trial:
    Mine's Lancer - 1:33.243
    Opera S2000 - 1:32.019

    So as you can see from the results, the S2000 proved to be the better vehicle on track! *blam* (JERRY! TOO SOON!)

    *sigh* Anyway, the Lancer proved to be too numb in the corners. A little too much understeer. The S2000 had more play, but bordered on being a little too tail-happy.

    The Opera wins because it's faster. Uh... can we... can we get someone to clean this up? It's getting dangerously close to the carpet.
     
  14. Ryk

    Ryk

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    plastic sheets are the solution.



    First glace.
    Hard to get away from the Soft tyres on the Lancer and the Monster Turbo bolted onto the engine Considering it has four wheel drive it is a bit heavy, but after the last few weeks of testing cars, a mere 1210kg feels very light indeed!
    The Little S2000 has 280kg or 616lb less weight and what little weight it does have is perfectly balanced. The Lancer has a double whammy of a All wheel drive powertrain coupled to a 59:41 weight distribution
    - I already can tell the car will be a wet dog in the corners. But will its Turbocharged engine give it the win on those ever so demanding straights? BUT that powertrain isn't a 50:50 split, only a quarter of that brutal 'turbo powah' goes to the front ... so three quarters (Or Three Fourths if you prefer over in Trumpalonia/Hillaristan) goes to the rears.

    35PP difference... The Boys and Girls at Polyphony Digital are betting heavily on the Lancer.

    Mirny Diamond Mine.jpg
    A Mine, Yesterday.​

    I ran a quick shake down test at a new track - Case Study Raceway No.8 (An Ikea style modular track on a hillside.) A Short but nice test track with a big range of corners so plenty of places I can split apart which car felt good and which car actually was faster.

    As this first run out was as much a test of the track as the cars This I'll judge as a pre fight sparring session -


    Testing times.
    Opera Performance S2000
    1m24.296 (3 laps)

    First test - Case Study Raceway No.8 (An Ikea style modular track on a hillside.)

    The Opera is an eager little sprite - Oversteer ready to give you a big grin any time you get bored. Engine note is a bit sterile and Sports Hards take a while to dial in but once you do it is pretty easy sailing, the rear is eager to dance about so an involved drive of balancing the car between going fast and being a mobile smoke machine as you murderise the rear tyres in a spree of opposite lock and full throttle. 3 Laps and I like the car a lot. It feels low on power, so you know you have to really smooth out the corners and carry as much speed as you can through them as the engine will not be saving your bacon on the straights; on the upside the car will attack every apex like it was born to do it. AND the cambers are adjustable so it it is too much you can dial down the front end grip or you can wuss out and have a few more turns of rear down force from the bolt on rear wing - It being pretty simple in terms of weight and power this could be a perfect car to try your hand at the dark art of set up.
    --------------

    Mine's Lancer Evolution 6
    1m23.619 LanEvo 6 (3 laps)

    I'll admit, this was much closer than I expected. The Lanevo feels just as woeful in the turns as I first expected but it has a good 'get up and go' out of them. If a corner is a short kink, all is great; If the corner has some curvature, then the Lancer likes to keep charging on like it is a galloping Warhorse with an armour clad Knight with a long pointy stick on its back.


    The Gearbox is a bit off. Top (5th gear) feels a bit tall and then 2nd felt a bit short. So I was on the verge of lunching the engine when I dipped down in a corner trying to get it to bite for the corner exit. However once you get used to the gearbox, it isn't that bad. The car is very stable, You can't hooligan about. It felt much faster than the S2000 in the easy bits. I'd say the car takes a while do get the most out of it. Once you do adapt and drive to the cars limits rather than your own the time will tumble - This for me is a trip to the Jenson Button school of "Smooth as buttah" driving. You have to protect the front tyres a lot, if you overwork them into a corner or try to put the boot in too early, then they cry and give up on you, and the grip from the rear will dominate the car and the weight of the engine will take your pushing way off line. But if you can tame yourself you will spit out some very impressive times.

    "A sliding object has no directional integrity"
    ---

    After these few laps I can see the Lancer being Harder to set a fast time but has the potential to set the fastest time... if the track is easy enough that you can let the mighty engine run free.

    (No driver aids, Both cars on a scrubbed set of Sports Hard tyres)
    Cape Ring (2 laps)
    Mine's Lancer Evo 6
    3m02.636 (6m08.599)

    Opera Performance S2000
    2m55.534 (5m54.259)

    WOW - The Opera car was like a gokart - Nimble could manage the big corners without having to lift. The Lancer felt hamstrung by the understeer - or maybe just a lack of rotation in the corners. The S2000 let me attack a bend and sort things out. The Lancer was always, 'sort it all out before' because if you overplay the corner entry you will get punished heavily. For me the S2000 was a natural car to drive hard right out of the box with.

    I'll give the Lancer a chance to impress me.. but it has a lot of work to do with a driver who enjoys oversteer.

    I think that could well be the big part of me. When I over cook a corner exit in a ragged oversteering plume of smoking rear tyres and I lose a place, I am grinning. When I pull the same sort of trick with a car pushing wider and wider into a corner and getting forced to lift off to salvage things, I am a grumpy Vettel in the car.


    2m57.991 (6m03.070)

    Good improvement form the Lancer but it was like a cricket ball to the ankles (Not recommended!) every time I had to slow down to let the Lancer get round a corner. Traffic didn't help it. But There is little point being fast on a single line, being flexible and adaptable are traits I like to exploit in a car.

    The Only real down side to the Opera is the woeful look to it with the standard car skin with blurry warped logos which - If I being honest (Because I've been telling you all big fibs so far!) look a bit like a guy threw them at the car over his shoulder. The MINE's car is much more subtle.

    But In this Duel the only winner could be...

    opera-paris-garnier-1.jpg
    An Opera, yesterday​

    Opera Performance S2000 wins!
     
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  15. MidFieldMaven

    MidFieldMaven

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    Opera Performance S2000 '04
    270 hp / 8,000 rpm
    177 ft-lb / 8,000 rpm
    930 kg (2,050 lbs)
    477 pp

    Mine's Lancer Evolution VI '00
    394 hp / 7,500 rpm
    293 ft-lb / 5,000 rpm
    1,210 kg (2,668 lbs)
    512 pp

    The 4WD Evo crushes the S2000 in terms of power, with a 124 hp and 115 ft-lb advantage. But with an extra 618 lbs of mass to carry through the turns, the Evo is a heavyweight next to the featherweight S2000.




    Top speed on track:

    150 mph - Evo
    139 mph - S2000

    Minimum speed through Turn 1:

    75 mph - S2000
    69 mph - Evo

    That pretty much tells the story from beginning to end. S2000 makes all of its time up in the corners, and the Evo leaves the S2000 in the dust on straightaways. I prefer the light and nimble S2000. It is a much better drivers' car. I would only choose the Evo for off-road fun and straight-line speed. Also, sorry for missing the last 2 weeks or so. Work has been taking a toll on my mental health and physical energy :guilty:
     
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  16. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    @Cowboy I noticed the online event closed on Friday. Don't you usually wait until Sunday?
     
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  17. pretend racer

    pretend racer

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    I was gonna have ago at this event today but it was closed so I guess I missed out...
     
  18. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    I must've messed up somehow. My bad :ouch:
     
  19. Arp 273

    Arp 273

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    Had very limit time for testing this week. The Mine's looks and sounds better and it's faster (on default tires) but my vote goes to the Opera Performance S2000 '04 because it's more fun to drive (and not running out of 5th gear...)
     
  20. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Here's my input : this week I took both cars to one of my custom fantasy point-to-point track which aims to be a rally / touge course.

    But first, the classic Trial Mountain lap times (comfort softs, ABS1, etc) :


    Mine's Lancer Evolution VI >>> 01:37.329
    Opera Performance S2000 >>> 01:36.215


    On my custom track (downlad it here), I decided to change a bit and fit sports mediums to both cars as to replicate asphalt rally tires after an oil change, and allowed myself to tweak the car's setups in the limits of what the stock parts allow after one test run. I then did 2 runs with each car. Here are the final times :

    Mine's Lancer Evolution VI >>> 04:28.645
    Opera Performance S2000 >>> 04:28.113



    On Trial Mountain, the time difference is pretty massive, as is the difference in cornering speeds. Although the Mine's is really nice from apex and onwards, it has some trouble turning in with the front loaded. The Opera can count on it's light weight, aero and balance to get greater entry and apex speeds, but the suspension is quite harsh and doesn't react very well to bumps. Mostly, it will lift the front wheels and make you understeer if you don't get the right line. The rear end can also part ways with the rest of the car under braking, but you can deal with some oversteer without actually losing time with this car, but you'll have to expect it, or try to prevent it.

    On the rally course, the times are much more closer, helped by the fact I nearly killed myself at the very end of the S2000's run. I would say the main difference between the two cars here is the following : you get a bit off course with the Evo because you braked a bit too late and understeered, while you get obliterated in the S2000 crashing onto a wall because your suspension literally told you to **** off on a bump and sends you instantly into a spin at 200 km/h.
    The S2000 feels really nice on flat surfaces, and clearly more at ease than the Evo on high speed sections (especially after lifting up rear ride height, lowering rear camber and increasing the rear wing). It is also more reactive and can dive a bit better in slow corners also, and it has enough torque to rely on 2nd gear for corner exits. The Evo take advantage from it's 4WD and power especially on hairpins, being able to engage them with e-brake more easily and get full-on with the throttle early, even at 20-80. It also reacted positively to lowering the rear at the same level than the front.

    Here are two pictures taken at the same place (at the beginning of the fast downhill section) showing the difference in suspension travel and dampening speed between the two cars :

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As you can see, the Evo's Öhlins tuned by Mine's got enough travel and quick enough dampening to keep the wheels in contact with the road at any time, while the Opera's Bilsteins are pretty slow to react and make the wheels go off the ground when there's several bumps.

    In the end, the Opera S2000 is the faster one here, but it requires more confidence to bring the most out of it, but over-confidence can lead you to a crash. But on most racetracks, it will face no problems, as it is clearly built with only that in mind. It's certainly more hardcore as well, in the way it's built the achieve such a low weight, and with its fast reactions.

    [​IMG]

    The Mine's Evo represents well the company's philosophy : building not only something that is fast, but easy and versatile, even on open roads. But the corner enthusiasts will wish it had a wilder handling. You have to remember though it's a pretty soft tune, focusing more on usability rather than pure performance : the suspension can handle the worst terrain, and the power delivery, while being not superior to what you can achieve with a simple remap and peripherals on a 4G63, is smooth with a fast response.

    [​IMG]

    The conclusion is much harder than I thought it would be : the Mine's feels nearly like an OEM+ quality build, while the Opera feels like a terrorist which doesn't want to negotiate in comparison. I'll give the edge to the Opera S2000 though because, as it was already said before, it is more of a driver's car here, and a mad guy like me has more fun with it, but the Mine's deserves the honours.
     
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  21. Obelisk

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    Another thing I want to point out is the Opera has downforce on the back but none on the nose. That might be why it was catching air.
     
  22. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    No, it's not the reason, you may not be able to tell by the picture but it's more the side that lifts rather than the front VS the rear (front left still touches the ground) ;) Also, from all the testings I made during 2 years, I suspect some cars still have some front aero even though the game shows no value for it, while it is shown and adjustable on the rear ;) That would require to take a look at the code to verify though, which I'm unable to do.

    Also, on my first attempt, I had a very bad crash (at the end of the high speed section right after the straight line in the forest if you want to give it a try), as it was only the rear wheels which lifted off ;)
     
  23. Obelisk

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    Oh, right. I had the same issue with the suspension back in GT5. The car bounced off of every curb like it was a trampoline. However, a good set up will go a long way with the car.
     
  24. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    But you can't adjust anything but ride height and camber on the Opera ;)
     
  25. Obelisk

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    You can put a full-custom suspension on it.
     
  26. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    I only review unmodified cars personally ;)
     
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  27. MisterWaffles

    MisterWaffles Premium

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    Times: Midfield
    Lancer: 1:20.538
    S2000: 1:18.838
    Gap:+0.01.700

    The s2000 sounds better, looks cooler and is way better to drive overall. Perfect turn-in and no understeer

    The s2000 gets my vote.

    Now back to some more fallout 4
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  28. Cowboy

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    I'm incredibly tired and a little busy, so I'll have to make this a short review.

    The S2000 has the greatness of the regular S2000, but in a racer kind of way. It's a madman on the corners but has a disadvantage on straights, due to the 270 HP. The Lancer is the exact opposite. It understeers like crazy on corners, but has the strength toake up for it on the straights. For this week, I choose.....

    The S2000

    Both cars tested offline at Apricot Hill Reverse, no aids except ABS: 1, SH tires.

    S2000: 1:30.629
    Lancer: 1:32.675

    And the votes:

    S2000: 8
    Lancer: 0

    And the winner is.....

    0611sscp_opera_performance_honda_s2000_top+view_z_I1H_PakWheels(com).jpg
    The '04 S2000!!!

    Congrats to @Draggon for setting the winning time of 1:25.851 in the Opera and for setting the winning time of 1:32.293 in the Mine's! My apologies though, I mistakingly set the end time for the trial to Friday night instead of Saturday night. Anyways, if you have any suggestions, please send them my way!​
     
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  29. girabyt3

    girabyt3 Premium

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    Ok, I'm new here, so I will suggest this one!!

    "Get ready for the next battle"
    NISMO GT-R LM ROAD GOING VERSION '95
    VS HONDA NSX-R PROTOTYPE ROAD CAR

    [​IMG]

    VS.

    [​IMG]

    FR VS. MR, Straight 6 VS. V6, Nismo vs. Mugen (kind of), Real life (GTR), vs. GT original (NSX), the battle of the cars that were on their days the entrance tickets of their respective brands to LeMans!! (PD based the NSX on the GTR as well, I think), so it could be as well Master vs. apprentice!!
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
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  30. Draggon

    Draggon

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    Competition in the Lancer was extremely close this week, I only beat @ThrasherDBS by .1 seconds and it wasn't easy!
     
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