GT6 Duel of the Week #70: The Grand Finale (well, not really)

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by CowboyAce57, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. Obelisk

    Obelisk Premium

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    Obelisk's DOTW review
    1971 Ferrari Dino 246 GT vs 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28

    Week 2. Right. This time, the cowboy's telling me I've gotta review a Ferrari and a Camaro. Um...That seems a bit lop-sided, doesn't it?

    Initial Price (Dino (0) - Camaro (1))
    The Dino goes for $90,000 and the Camaro goes for $65,000. Camaro gets the point.

    Color choices (Dino (1) - Camaro (1))
    The Camaro has 18 colors to choose from. Holy :censored:. The Dino has...31 colors?! HOLY :censored: :censored: in a :censored:! The Dino gets the point.

    Customization (Dino (2) - Camaro (2))
    Neither car has special customization, so this round is a draw.

    Acceleration and top speed (Dino (3) - Camaro (3))
    Dino: 400m @ 13.8s/98 MPH, 1000m @ 25.5s/127 MPH, top speed 173 MPH
    Camaro: 400m @ 13.6s/102 MPH, 1000m @ 24.9s/125 MPH, top speed 129 MPH
    Just as I thought, the raw accelerating power of the Camaro beats the Dino, but at this point the Dino would be gaining on the Camaro. Draw.


    Exhaust note (Dino (3) - Camaro (4))

    The Camaro has a soft grumble while the Dino has a good hum. Camaro's grumble still sounds really good, so it gets the point.

    One Lap Trial - Midfield Raceway (Dino (3) - Camaro (5))
    Camaro: 1:25.525
    Dino: 1:26.153
    Wait, what? But...but...Ferrari? Fine. The Camaro wins this round.

    Personal Choice (Dino (3) - Camaro (6))
    The Camaro was so much easier to control and it blew the Dino out of the water on a handling track. Camaro gets the point.

    FINAL VOTE: 1969 CHEVROLET CAMARO Z28
     
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  2. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Awfully one sided duel this one was. American muscle versus Italian museum piece.

    Enzo Ferrari has never been a favorable character in my book. Reading about his personality and his interactions with other people soured me on him and his accomplishments. It's what makes some of my favorite bits of automotive history much more sweet when he got put in his place, whether it was by Ford's domination at LeMans in the late 60's or when his snobbish remarks toward Ferruccio Lamborghini earned him a fierce rival in supercar manufacturing.

    One thing I find commendable about Enzo Ferrari is the one behind the Dino line of sports cars and his eldest son Alfredo. The engine and the marquee was his idea, but unfortunately he didn't live to see it put into production. He succumbed to muscular dystrophy, and his father wanted to honor his name by using the marquee without a trace of the Ferrari badging. It's touching that he did that in memory of his son. I can't fathom the sort of pain he was in when he lost his son, but I'd imagine it's nothing I'd wish on anyone.

    And the other car is a classic muscle car that's sought after by collectors. In real life, I'd prefer the SS Camaro, but I wouldn't necessarily turn down one that was a homologation model for the Trans Am series. Let's see how this stacks up against a different prancing horse than it's used to running against.

    Laguna Seca Trial:
    Dino - 1:43.932
    Camaro - 1:42.596

    Rotenboden Trial:
    Dino - 1:56.193
    Camaro - 1:51.904

    SSR5 Trial:
    Dino - 1:40.752
    Camaro - 1:38.824

    Somewhere out there, XtremeEdward is foaming at the mouth, but the race-ready Camaro is the clear winner against the Dino. The Dino may have been smoother in the corners, but the Camaro's only problem was the slight understeer if you came into a corner too hot, which was easily manageable. The Camaro also churned out nearly 100 more horsepower than the Dino, more than making up for the weight difference between the two.

    The classic Camaro that I painted in Rosso Chiaro is the winner.

    EDIT: Funny coincidence of the day, I posted this at 5:55 and it's duel #55. Huh.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
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  3. RuddRacer

    RuddRacer

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    Greetings @Cowboy

    Are you still doing the TT events in your club? If so a couple of questions...

    In addition to ABS is the driving line allowed?
    Is "stock" with our without oil change.
    What about changing the brake balance ( it's available on all cars) ?

    Are there ever any formal or informal events held in the club? If so what time is typical (in GMT)? (I ask because I have a much different schedule than most people)

    I'm active in the WRS but occasionally I have more time available than I can spend working on just one TT per week.

    Thanks :tup:
     
  4. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Questions I can answer right off the top of my head: @RuddRacer

    -We still do weekly Time Trial events, they're open for one week and they close at (for me on the west coast of the US) 10am on Sunday. (So since you're from Texas, it ends at about noon) The open time varies, based on whenever Cowboy can set it up.

    -ABS is a-okay, driving line is not.

    -What I do is buy a brand new example of each car and race them immediately as is. As part of the regulations, there's a power limit that corresponds to the stock power of the more powerful car, as is a minimum weight limit that corresponds to the weight of the lighter car. So for the sake of doing a fair duel, no oil changes.

    -Yes, there's nothing part of the game's regulations that can stop you from making changes to the brake balance, but since we are testing cars as they are straight off the showroom floor, I would strongly, strongly, STRONGLY advise against fiddling with the brake balance.

    -The time trials are pretty much the only events we have as a group. Just log on, start a room, spend a 10-minute session on the selected track with each car, and see which one pulls off a faster lap time. Of course this isn't mandatory to participate in the voting process, it's just an extra tool that some of us use in our criteria when we vote. You could type "I love muscle cars, so the Camaro gets my vote" or "I love Ferraris so the Dino gets my vote" in your very next post, and we'd count it. We don't necessarily coordinate times to do the trials as a group, so we just pop in and do an official trial on our own time, about 20 minutes in total and call it good. It shouldn't take too much of your time.

    Anything else? We'd love to have you participate: the more, the merrier.
     
  5. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    Adding on to Thrashers bit on driver aids, the only aids allowed are ABS. I'd be glad to have you join us @RuddRacer! You proved to be good competition in the time trials that you had, so I dont see how youd be any different here:cheers:
     
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  6. RuddRacer

    RuddRacer

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    Ok thanks for the info, sounds fun.
     
  7. RuddRacer

    RuddRacer

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    As a teaser of my review I thought would share a couple of pics I took of my test laps.

    The Dino

    Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca_4.jpg

    Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca_1.jpg

    The Z28

    Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca_10.jpg
    Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca_11.jpg
     
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  8. Ryk

    Ryk

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    dinoz28banner.jpg

    This is interesting. Big meaty American car with humble origins against an Economy Ferrari.

    Slinky mid engined Italian with that sublime Pinninfarina style and the Camaro sweet little car designed under the helm of Henry C. Haga at the Chevrolet Studio of the General Motors Design Center. (It should be Centre, but I guess it is just America being America.)
    ----
    Z/28 has 450pp so is a heavy favourite to destroy the 246GT which only had 413PP...


    ***Round 1*** Willow Springs ***

    1m30.1 (12m32.8) 246GT
    1m30.7 (12m33.0) Z/28

    Just amazed how close these two were here considering the issues the Chevy had with its Hurst-shifted 4 speed gearbox. I can only see the Dino going faster as you get more out of the corners, the Z/28 slams hard into the rev limiter a few times (Two or Three-ish) over the lap. The Dino was faster over a single hot lap and over a race distance - Neither car required a pit stop, which was nice.

    246GT 10 - Z/28 - 8​


    *** Round 2 *** Sips fuel like Father Jack ... ***
    The Dino is modest with its drinking habits, Classy like it is drinking a Negroni.
    The Camaro, is slamming away like it is on watery American Lager.
    Both can manage a distance of 20 miles of hard racing action without running out of fuel from the GT6 sized fuel tank. The 246GT however had 3/8th's of a tank left... the Chevy is on the last dregs. Hard to score it any other way.

    246GT 10(20) - Z/28 - 8(16)​

    *** Round 3 *** Tyre Degradation ***

    Different wear rates, the Camaro chews on the front tyres like a puppy with your favourite slippers but overall the balance is quite even, but near the end of the tyres life the car will exhibit even more soul sapping understeer.
    3F5
    4R6

    The Dino... The weak point is the outside rear tyre, which does tend to wear out if you drive like a spoon. If you have a handful of car control and can keep the rear of the car bolted down, then this is no issue.
    7F8
    4R7

    Could have been another 10-8 round but the Dino does require more "driver talent" to extend the tyre life which pivots on that outside rear... if you smear the rubber onto the track then the car will take you to the wonderful world of snap oversteer.

    246GT 10(30) - Z/28 - 9 (25)​

    ***Round 4 *** Grace is Beyond Style - Looks. ***

    The Camaro is a nice enough car, The Lack of a B Pillar is pretty stylish, The Headlamps feel a bit of a Friday Afternoon Job (Rush it so you can get away for the weekend!) and seem at odds with the otherwise pretty slick looking car, which has nice easy curves and lines. If the Headlamps were only better. The proportions and shape is - nice - solid very much in the Goldilocks range of being "just right" - but those headlamps - gah!

    The Dino is great, the only qualm I have is maybe the rear overhand is a bit long. Which is probably more due to me comparing it to a Stratos or an Elise, both of which have short squat powerful rear ends.

    The Camaro is a nice healthy looking car. The Dino has the lines of a dancer, and a novice ballet dancer at that. As it says on my Italian shoes, Grace is Beyond Style, and the 246GT is Monday AND Tuesday's child. (Fair of Face and Full of Grace)

    246GT 10(40) - Z/28 - 9 (34)​

    ***Round 5 *** Indianapolis Motor Speedway ***

    I didn't fancy running Route X in the Camaro - I already know it has a stunty gearbox, so a run at the brickyard - Home territory for the American car?
    Maybe but the lack of ultimate top speed casts a shadow over the car much as the cheap and cheerful headlamps ruin the front of the car.

    74.2 seconds - B Spec - Z/28
    73.1 seconds - B Spec - 246GT

    A Google Robot was able to drive the delicate tail happy Dino faster than the Fred Flintstone Z/28

    63.0 seconds - A Spec - 246GT (5m22.2 after 5 laps)
    71.0 seconds - A Spec - Z/28 (5m56.5 after 5 laps)


    When Ryk took over in the Z/28,he could only get 3.2 seconds faster over the 2.5 mile track (I can't call it an oval.)
    in the Dino, Ryk could drop the lap time by 10.1 seconds over the lap...

    Gah - good job this is only a single round or that Gearbox would destroy the Chevy... No more B Spec runs!


    246GT 10(50) - Z/28 - 8 (42)​


    *** Round 6 *** Cool name? ***

    246GT - 2.4 litre 6 cylinders... seems pretty logical good
    Z/28.... Secret code! The last letter of the alphabet divided by the total number of days in February when it isn't a leap year... Mysterious! Maybe just the RPO number

    How about Dino vs Camaro.

    Short name of Enzo's son who actually put alot of effort into the concept of the engine and who died before it could be finally realised...
    Camaro... Ah Camaro.
    Now you may think it is a smudged word of French origin for "Friend" or "Companion"...Maybe you think it is old Spanish for "a small shrimp-like creature" ... or even... "Loose Bowels"...
    ... Oh General Motors such a joker!


    246GT 10(60) - Z/28 - 9 (51)​

    *** Round 7 *** Fabulous Las Arthe ***
    LeMans-sign.jpg
    I was going to do La Gunaseca - but then got all tearful when I remembered the original track and the way that new fangled flat infield section took away the great early part of the lap. (As seen in many a Herbie movie!)

    Hmm 1971 - Didn't they do LeMans back then? (And they murderised Maison Blanche and put in those tepid Porsche curves and silly chicanes on Mulsanne...)

    But what is this, a 2005 version of LeMans with no chicanes... well it isn't perfect but seeing as we are here...

    4m53.3 (Z/28) vs. 4m41.6 (246GT)

    Tetre Rouge .... Z/28 up by 1.5 seconds)
    Mulsane ......................246GT up by 11.5 seconds
    Arnage ..................................246GT up by 11.8 seconds
    Maison Blanche (Super tame new version) ......246GT up by 12 seconds
    Lap ..........................246GT takes the flag winning by 11.7 seconds

    Ferrari may have lost to Ford at LeMans, but it didn't to Chevrolet in this test.

    246GT 10(70) - Z/28 - 8 (59)​

    *** Round 8 *** A Moment on the lips, a Lifetime on the hips.***

    Touchy subject - but if you can reduce weight then you can reduce lap times...
    1080kg vs 1415kg
    Gemasolar_dinoz28.jpg
    How can the Chevrolet be 335kg heavier? A Mystery that may never be solved.



    246GT 10(80) - Z/28 - 8 (67)​

    *** Round 9 *** Raw Power ****

    Of course an abundance of power can neutralise the penalty of a fat car... and Ferrari was based on having a powerful engine first, So the more modest small V6 was a radical departure for what was a Ferrari touchstone (Big V12 powah!) - Can a humble 5 litre V8 from the land where you can buy fried chicken by the bucket really compete with a car from the makers of the fastest road car in the world (Ferrari 365GTB (Daytona))... lets look at the numbers.

    289bhp vs 191bhp...

    Oddly I've heard the Z/28 had much more power than the published 289bhp it was however a bit peaky so low revs would cause the engine to stutter as it didn't pour out lashings of torque... whatever it still has more than the modest V6 from Maranello
    Willow Springsz28.jpg
    (The Powerful Z/28 Camaro, yesterday)
    We are witnessing history here Jay! - The Chevy takes a round... Dominating the Ferrari with 98 more American Horses.


    246GT 8(88) - Z/28 - 10 (77)

    *** Round 10 *** Monte Carlo or Bust ***

    To complete the triple crown of races that only one driver has ever managed (That would be Graham Hill.)

    Can the Chevy with a push rod 5 litre engine out muscle the Mid Engined Ballerina Ferrari?
    (Blind single lap - Wow it is much wider than real life here!)
    1m55.2 (246GT) (Single Lap with a glorious powerslide out of Beau Rivage through Massenet into Casino Square!)
    1m56.7 (Z/28) (Two laps as I couldn't believe how slow the first lap was!)

    Well... I expected the Camaro to beat up the Ferrari here... the power and acceleration of the car should have had it leaping out of corners... but the car was a horror show in the tight corners... if it didn't understeer into them it would light up the inside rear on the exit. Probably much more down the weight slowing it through corners whereas the 246GT would rotate at will and demand a dab of oppo any chance it could. Also the lighter car was much easier to slow down into the corners.


    246GT 10(98) - Z/28 - 9 (86)

    Ryk would pick the Dino 246 GT.

    I found it much more enjoyable to drive, the step from 4th to 5th was a pain... but compared to the Camaro bashing its face into a brick wall over and over again it wasn't so bad!
    If the Camaro had a proper gearbox then maybe I'd score things differently... But it didn't and so if you can find a track which doesn't have technical tight corners or any full fat straights then maybe the Camaro is good... but if you fancy doing a Graham Hill tribute crown triple... then the 246GT is just the job.

    The Camaro wasn't as terrible as the score may suggest - but the seesaw of which has the most understeer does tend to bias me a lot... And as usual the lighter car tends to appeal to me more. I enjoyed the oversteer and balancing the Dino, the Camaro had understeer and compared to the Mid engined car didn't give me much confidence in slow corners or have the front end grip to cope with fast corners either. It was good out of medium corners but having such a specialised gearbox destroyed its top speed which on the more open tracks of the era would make a car with and engine half the size crush it.

    All times and test were run with No driver aids, no 60's era ABS, No traction control and only a state of the art 8-track playing some foot stomping tunes of the era...

    The M.V.P.'s "Turnin' my heartbeat up" For the 1971's Dino 246GT

    Sue Lynne "Don't pity me" For the poor old Clunker Camaro Z/28 of 1969.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  9. MidFieldMaven

    MidFieldMaven

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    The last time I tested the Dino at Mid-Field was in April 2015. I just finished up with a re-test and managed to beat the old record by 0.155 seconds, finishing with a best lap of 1:25.258

    That still trails the Camaro Z28 by nearly 2 tenths of a second. I last tested this car in July 2015. After a re-test, I could not manage a faster time. I am not good enough to see a clean 1:24 with either car on Comfort Soft tires.

    I prefer the Dino in every aspect other than price.

    Old Ferrari lap:

     
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  10. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    My times with this week's selection :

    Trial Mountain (comfort softs, no ABS)

    Ferrari Dino 246 GT >>> 1:41.799
    Chevrolet Camaro Z28 '69 >>> 1:42.261

    Custom track (comfort softs, no ABS, oil change)

    Ferrari Dino 246 GT >>> 4:12.247
    Chevrolet Camaro Z28 '69 >>> 4:12.624

    Laguna Seca online TT (comfort softs, no ABS)

    Ferrari Dino 246 GT >>> 1:43.679
    Chevrolet Camaro Z28 '69 >>> 1:43.850

    Two cars from the same era but different places, with different philosophies. Both are a different kind of fun. The Ferrari has that classic sports car fun, a nice blend between performance and sensation, speed and challenge. You might not like Ferrari's politics or elitism. There's always been more often than not a faster, a classier and a more comfortable option than Ferrari lineup, but Ferrari always knew how to build a machine that has something special, which connected to your soul, especially in the classic era, and the Dino is a lieutenant in regard of that aspect. The Camaro ? Well, it's like a clown from a black metal themed circus. It's loud, it's raw, it's hyperactive and jumps here and there screaming and laughing making jokes while standing on the back of a panther (not a tiger, it's not dark enough). But no matter how nervous and unpredictable he looks like, he always remains on his path written by a scripted show, and he's a really nice guy that won't lose his head overstupid provocations.

    Dino definitely wins on putting power to the ground at corner exits, as the Camaro likes to convert it into smoke with inside mono wheelspin. But that also means that while the Chevy can take nearly any kind of throttle input without sending you spinning, the Dino will happily slide and swap ends if you're not careful enough. It forces you to drive more cleanly, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The Camaro doesn't provide much feedback with its sloppy suspension and open diff, and it will pretty much always come back in line even when powersliding, so you kinda drive it like a madman, caring for nothing but keeping that powerswitch to "on". Hey, it's a muscle pony car, it's made for that, right ? It's not the most effective way to drive it though, but it takes more time to understand it. Still, it will feel like you're pushing it very hard and close to the limit, and I think you can go close to the limit more easily with the Chevy. You just have to figure when to do the more brutal inputs to counter the natural understeery balance of the chassis and when not to wake up the smoke machine. With the Ferrari, you need to take advantage of its agility while keeping full traction on exits and controlling the tail moves according to the entry speed.

    In terms of pure performance, those cars are really close on every track I tried them, although the Camaro was not limited that much by its gearbox problem here (only bounces off the limiter once on my custom track if I don't get to 50% throttle to gain a few km/h, but the Dino reached the same top speed there). The Camaro has an advantage on acceleration (once the inside wheel stops being a cloud factory) but not as much as I would have expected, but superior speed through the whole corners with the Ferrari definitely makes up for it. Fun thing though is I feel the Ferrari still got some time to shave on the custom course and had a nice run on Laguna Seca, while the Camaro seems to have something left under its foot on Laguna Seca, but pretty much topped it on the custom course.

    In the end, while the Camaro gives some satisfying immature fun while being probably more accessible (because beginners usually have more trouble with oversteer than anything else), the Dino feels more modern and more sports car, and matches my own vision of automotive driving pleasure. You don't think of its flaws, you're too focus and connected with it, whereas the Camaro makes you wish you'd be able to pick up parts in the option catalog (though I don't know if you were allowed to order a different differential with the Z/28 package back then). So Ferrari gets my vote, but the Chevy still deserves a guitar shaped lolipop as a special award.

    PS : Italy still makes better pizza.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
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  11. Obelisk

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    Hey @GT_Alex74 you used the wrong code for strikethroughs. It's just [ s ] and [ / s ] without the spaces.
     
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  12. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Thanks for the info, corrected ;)
     
  13. RuddRacer

    RuddRacer

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    1971 Ferrari Dino 246 GT vs 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
    City of Arts and Sciences - Night.jpg

    Tale of the Tape:

    Ferrari Dino Camaro Z28
    HP 121 289
    Weight 1080kg 1415kg
    Wt/hp ratio 8.93kg / hp 4.90kg / hp
    Wt. Dist 46:54 54:46
    Final Gear 3.625 3.890

    Other Notables:
    Dino - has some very unusual gear spacing (wide) in 3rd and 5th gear. As a result it hurts the cars ability to accelerate and probably its top speed.
    Z28 - Its final gear is only 0.265 lower (speed not numerically) but with its close ration 4 speed it artificially limits its top speed quite a lot and certainly not offset by the slight improvement it makes in acceleration.

    I found the SH were way too "soft" for both cars and numbed the feel and their driving characteristics. I took the liberty of using CS in part of my track testing although CM is probably a better representation of what they had at the time.

    Performance Testing done offline using Time Trails in Arcade mode. (10 pt scale, winner must get 10 pts)
    Stock, no oil change & ABS 1 only aid.

    1 mile standing start acceleration test:
    Dino 37.102 @ 140mph (9)
    Z28 36.970 @ 129mph (10)
    Despite hitting its top speed in the first 1/2 mile the Camaro bouncing off the rev limiter to take the win.

    Tsukuba Circuit_2.jpg

    Laguna Seca
    Dino 1'43.158 (8) 17
    Z28 1'42.596 (10) 20
    Even with the over sticky SH tires the Dino can be a handful anytime you are off throttle and trying to turn. If I did not have to compensate for that it may have been much closer.

    Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca_10.jpg

    Nurburgring Nordschleife
    Dino 8'41.744 (6) 23
    Z28 8'21.240 (10) 30
    Dino suffered from more of the same problems

    Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca_8.jpg

    Tsukuba
    Dino 1'07.676 (8) 31
    Z28 1'07.167 (10) 40
    Used CS tires for this test. Not sure if it was the tire change or the lower speed but the Dino was much easier to drive and very predictable. Even the heavy Camero felt great on the harder rubber. I enjoyed this tire/ track combo the most with both cars. Great fun!

    Tsukuba Circuit_3.jpg

    Totals
    Dino 31
    Camaro 40

    So the results are not much different than I expected when comparing the cars stats. The Camaro dominates the Ferrari in every performance category and is the best of the two cars in GT6.

    Which car would choose to put in my own garage as a gift? The Ferrari by a mile!

    Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca_3.jpg








     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  14. Obelisk

    Obelisk Premium

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    Er...Shouldn't the bolded say "Camaro"?
     
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  15. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    The Dino. Enzo Ferrari's tribute to his late son, this car is a true classic. It is also the cheapest Ferrari in GT6 at $90,000. 190 HP powers this lower end beast and has a mid-mounted engine. Driving it is a special pleasure because you just get that feeling that your in a masterpiece of automotive history. This car also seems, funny enough, to be underestimated in the PP department. I used this car in the Beater or Sleeper races on Tuesday night, and it pretty well smoked the competition. It's a loveable car that doesn't actually take much skill to drive.

    Then you have the Camaro. Normally youd expect great acceleration, but poor handling. That's not the case for this, as the handling is actually nice. It's still got some understeer, but it doesn't kick the tail out the moment you step on the gas. Top speed is the main downfall here, and that's what you get for driving one of these cars. These two were close in the time trial, only being separated by .4 of a second. In the end, I chose.....

    The Ferrari

    Both cars tested on Laguna Seca, no aids except ABS 1, SH tires

    Dino: 1:42.433
    Camaro: 1:42.018

    And the votes:

    Dino: 5
    Camaro: 2

    And the winner is.....

    1969-ferrari-dino-246-gt-8.jpg
    The '71 Dino 246 GT!!!

    Congrats to EmaRED_82 for setting the winning TT time of 1:41.606 in the Dino and for setting the winning time of 1:40.835 in the Camaro!​
     
  16. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    This week I thought that we would steer away from American cars for a while and head towards the EU. This week's duel is.....

    cars-aston-martin-vanquish-2004-308513.jpg
    The 2004 Aston Martin Vanquish

    vs

    2008protonpersona008.jpg
    The 2008 Maserati GranTurismo S!!!


    One thing I can say is that these two are quite heavy, but that doesn't matter since they have moar power to get them around. This week's time trial will be at Grand Valley East, so with that, have at it!​
     
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  17. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    Urgh, just finished a year of Maserati Trofeo championship... guess I'm not done with that car already :lol:
     
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  18. RuddRacer

    RuddRacer

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    Yes indeed :tup: , not sure how that happened or how I missed it :confused:. Original post edited.
     
  19. Arp 273

    Arp 273

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    Great new duel! I like both so I'm actually curious how they compare to each other. Still have to be carefull with shoulder and arm but I don't want to miss this one!
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
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  20. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Location:
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    Unfortunately, I don't have the means to test these vehicles out. However, I do have a pen pal that is part of MI6 that asks me to keep records of his mission logs, should MI6 be compromised. Why he picked me of all people, I'll never know, but there is one particular mission that involved two of these cars that I've been given clearance to share with the rest of you.

    _________________________________________________________________________________

    Agent 700, Mission Log #56 - Operation CARTHIEF

    Requested by MI6 to investigate a car smuggling ring. When I asked why I was investigating them, I was informed that nuclear arms were being smuggled into the cars. There was a party being thrown in a nameless Japanese city by one Elton Rosenkruze, who was suspected as being the one behind the organization.

    A few days before, I was driving my black Aston Martin Vanquish around the Matterhorn's curvy roads, when a lady in a silver Maserati GranTurismo S flashed her lights behind me. Not wanting to give up a challenge, we ran around a loop three times. I clearly had the upper-hand with my car being firmly planted on the road, where she struggled to maintain control on a handful of the chicanes. I pulled over, wanting to talk with the lovely lady, and she sped off, defeated.

    In Japan, I was driving around the city, when the same Maserati flashed her lights at me. This time, her drifty car control got the better of me, and we eventually met up at Rosenkruze's party. I was at the bar, enjoying my drink. (Gin martini, stirred for 10 seconds while staring at an unopened bottle of vermouth.) She talks about her passion for cars, and how she's an "intimate" friend of Rosenkruze. I looked away for one second, then sipped my drink. The room began to spin, and I blacked out.

    When I came to, Rosenkruze had me tied to a chair, and already knew that I was with MI6. He waxed lyrical about how the world is changing, he's helping bring about that change, Britain shall fall, blah, blah, blah. Next, he took me to a racetrack of all places and put me in my car. He informed me that my car was rigged with an explosive, and that so was his assassin's car. I look, and I see the same woman that I was racing with. In ten minutes, we were to race around the track, and whoever had the fastest lap, the bomb would diffuse whereas the other would go off. My car was stripped of its armaments, while hers was not. It was a tense 10-minutes of bullet and missile dodging, but she focused way too much on trying to shoot me, that her car was more out of control. I wound up victorious. She may not have won, but she certainly had a blast.

    The following are times from the races:

    Rotenboden Trial:
    Vanquish - 1:49.090
    GranTurismo S - 1:51.892

    SSR5 Trial:
    Vanquish - 1:35.417
    GranTurismo S - 1:34.884

    Grand Valley (East) Trial:
    Vanquish - 1:12.649
    GranTurismo S - 1:12.978

    The passenger door opens, and in steps Rosenkruze with a gun to my head, with orders to drive him to the docks so he could make his escape. Using quick thinking, (and an insane amount of luck), I managed to lose him driving underneath an overpass. He may have stripped my car of armaments, but didn't disable the passenger-side ejector seat. His head smashed against the underside of the overpass. MI6 was at the dockyards, already securing the stolen cars and nuclear weapons.

    My trusty Vanquish came through for me and saved me several times in the past 48 hours, and I wouldn't trade it for that Maserati, desirable as it was. Mine was more stable, though in a less bloodthirsty driver's hands, the Maserati could be a good contender. I saved the world once more, escaped with my life, and earned a commendation from MI6.

    As for Rosenkruze, he had to hit the road.
     
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  21. Neddo

    Neddo

    Messages:
    3,951




    now who will be the bride who walks away after a battle?

    Heart wants Vanquish, but something tells this will be a battle
     
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  22. Draggon

    Draggon

    Messages:
    2,052
    Im having trouble with both of these in practice for the TT. I use a DS3, so without some form of traction control it's difficult coming out of slow turns without huge amounts of wheelspin. So far it looks like the Vanquish has a lot more grip. Time will tell ;)
     
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  23. Ryk

    Ryk

    Messages:
    3,144
    Location:
    England
    masastonbanner.jpg

    Aston Martin Vanquish vs Maserati GranTurismo S

    I suppose we had a good run for a few weeks but now look, what a couple of Clunkers we have to test here.

    Big Naturally Aspriated engines with multiple cylinders spread out into a V formation.(shudder) Rear Wheel drive, Two doors, Deep Leather seats. And look at the shape... long lines, powerful stance.... how could anyone enjoy looking at these munters?

    Still, I guess I'll have to let these two fight and hope next week we get something more boxy and front wheel drive to duel with.

    ... Who am I kidding these two are goppingly gorgeous. - A Proper Heavyweight battle. Fast with comfort. Able to cross a country in a single attempt - without any fuss.

    Let's introduce the fighters in tonights HEAVYWEIGHT BOUT!


    In the British Racing Green Corner, from Newport Pagnell in England (Just 15 or so miles East of Silvastun... I mean Silverstone - Have to attempt a posh accent for an Aston!)
    Trained by Ian "Salsa Red" Callum of Jaguar fame. With a 5935cc 60° 48 Valve V12 in a front engined rear wheel drive concept. Tipping the scales at 1835kilograms (4045 pounds)
    The Aston Martin Vanquish!

    And Introducing in the Italian Racing Scarlet corner. From Modena Italy (About 25miles to the Northwest of Bologna) Trained by Jason Castriota under the legendary Pininfarina Gym, with a 4691cc V8 engine mounted behind the front axel diverting its power through a rear transaxle. Tipping the scales at 1780 kilograms (3924 pounds)​
    The Maserati GranTurismo S!

    Tale of the Tape -
    Maserati - Vs. - Vanquish
    4881mm -- Length -- 4665mm
    1915mm -- Width -- 1923mm
    1353mm -- Height -- 1318mm
    439bhp -- Power -- 459nhp
    1780kg -- Weight -- 1835kg
    50kgfm -- Torque -- 55kgfm


    489PP Maserati vs. 502pp for the Vanquish - So a slight edge to the English car from Buckinghamshire.

    *** Round 1 *** Birthday Bumps! ***

    Maserati was founded in Bologna in December 1914 - Over one Hundred years old. That's pretty old.

    Aston Martin was formed in London also in December but the year before in 1913 - Hard cheese old boy!

    Aston Martin takes the round, for being the oldest antediluvian car maker of the pair. (In England we get floods all the time!)

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 10 °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 9​

    *** Round 2 *** Have you won the Indy 500? ***

    Maserati - Yes, Twice.
    Aston... Race, in the Colonies, with those dreadful Americans? How very quaint!

    Point to Maserati winning in Indiana in an Italian car. Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Lamborghini, DeTomaso and Lancia have zero wins between them.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 9 (19) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 10 (19)

    *** Round 3 *** Have you won at Le Mans? ***

    The Aston scored a 1-2 in the 50's outright and notched up a back to back victories in GT1 class in 2007 and 2008.
    Maserati... close but...

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 10 (29) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 9 (28)​

    *** Round 4 *** Have you won the Monaco Grand Prix? ***

    This is going to be tough for Aston who only tried Formula One for a very brief stab. But did the Mighty Maserati with Moss and Fangio score a victory in the Principality? Yes but the first Monaco Grand Prix winner was Guiseppe Farina way back in 1948, and Notching up 3 victories for the trident marque.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 9 (38) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 10 (38)

    *** Round 5 *** Have you won the Targa Florio? ***

    Maserati managed a class victory way back in 1926 driven by none other than Alfieri Maserati one of the founding Maserati Brothers. Remarkable drive on one of the most demanding road circuits ever! Maserati also won the overall event 4 times in succession in 1937, 1938, 1939 and 1940.
    In comparison Aston Martin had a Single Event Fastest Lap when it raced at the Sicilian track.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 9 (47) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 10 (48)

    *** Round 6 *** Lashings of V shaped Powah! ***

    Both of these car have proper engines, none of this Turbocharged shinanigens...

    Maserati - 439bhp
    Vanquish - 459bhp


    Oddly, I feel the Maserati punched above its engines weight here; a 4.7 litre engine developing 440bhp while a 5.9 litre can only cough out 20 more horses? Come on Aston pull your finger out!

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 10 (57) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 9 (57)​

    *** Round 7 *** Mass Effect ***

    Maserati - 1780kg 47:53
    Vanquish - 1835kg 57:43

    Weight is interesting as the Maserati has a Transaxle, moving much of the weight to the rear axel of the car, despite it being a front engined car.
    The Vanquish is basically a tarted up DB7 - so is a bit more traditional at times. More weight and, on paper, a worse distribution of the mass of the car.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 9 (66) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 10 (67)

    *** Round 8 *** You Talk the Torque ***

    Maserati -- 50kgfm
    Vanquish -- 55kgfm

    10% more peak torque, so the Maserati gets 10% less points in this easy to score 10-9 round.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 10 (76) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 9 (76)​

    *** Round 9 *** The Price is Right! ***

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 238,750 Kazulas
    Maserati GranTurismo S - 166,500 Kazulas
    ... That is a fair wedge of cash for the Vanquish. But quality will be remembered long after you forget about the pain of the price. (It says that on the inside of my Italian shoes.)

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 9 (85) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 10 (86)​

    *** Round 10 *** Thing of Beauty ***

    These cars just look spiffing! The Aston is nearly perfect looking. The Maserati is classy with a modern edge to it. side by side and especially from the rear the Maserati has a bit more of a future look to the way Jason sculpted the rear lamps. But British Designer Ian Callum has a timeless design honed by those guys at Zagato. To be brutally honest these cars are so good, not only do they share the round, But I'm going to give them double points! Double points for everyone!

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 20 (105) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 20 (106)

    --- Well after 10 rounds of... well Top Trumps, these two are very close, the Maserati just holding a lead but one point isn't much. And I've yet to actually give the cars a darn good trashing on the track...

    *** Round 11 *** Suck Squeeze Bang Blow. That is how Engines go! ***

    How good did the engines sound?

    The Vanquish has a raspy V12 - Excellent
    The Maserati only has a V8 is also great.

    I wish both had a bit more depth on the rev counter... BUT these are long legged GT cars, not out and out racers. I am also used to V12 revving higher than a comparable V8 - but the V8 here is much smaller
    Honestly I could listen to them all day, The V8 in the Maserati reminded more of a old Cosworth DFV than a Nascar - which was nice.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 10 (115) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 10 (116)

    *** Round 12 *** Balance and Poise = Handling ***

    The Vanquish has a small spoonful of understeer, which when you trying to go fast that spoonful is more than enough to really upset the applecart. Often into a corner I would be unsure if the car would be able to rotate or if I would have to give up and hope for better next lap.
    The Maserati is interesting to drive much more alive in comparison. It would light up the tyres into and out of corners. The Maserati was also about to hold more speed in faster corners, Lighter weight or better balance. Whatever it had an advantage in fast (130mph-ish)corners, when the Aston would need either better tyres or a better driver to be able to match the Maserati in the tougher ballsy corners.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 9 (124) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 10 (126)

    *** Round 13 *** TT Circuito Hornachaelos (LM) ***

    I ran this way back in a Jaguar vs Aston Duel... 3.6 mile track. Traction Control off, ABS off, String back Driving gloves on!

    Ran two sighting laps then an all or nothing flying third lap!
    2m08.289 (3rd lap) - Vanquish
    2m08.041 (3rd lap) - Maserati

    The Maserati had the advantage of going second, but being honest they were a pretty close matchup. The Aston winning in the simple straight bits and the Maserati having the potential to corner with more gusto. But The Judge is the stop watch so, The round goes to Modena.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 9 (133) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 10 (136)

    *** Round 14 *** Paint Chips ***

    The Maserati has 9 shades, 3 Greys, two Blacks, two Blues, a Deep Red : dark mean colours (And a creamy white if you need the car to drive your favourite daughter to her wedding in style.)- But I chose to respray it in an Italian Racing Red (Red ones go faster as they say...)
    The Aston has 7 shades, not one, but two Dark Greens...

    The crowd didn't see that brutal 1-2 combination of Derwent Green and British Racing Green paint chips. What would have knocked out a lesser opponent merely sent the young Italian to the canvas... but he is getting back up. He is eager for more, The Referee looks him in the headlamps - Yes the fight is still on... But there goes the bell ending a dramatic 14th round.

    Aston Martin Vanquish - 10 (143) °°° Maserati GranTurismo S - 7 (143)​

    -----------
    masvanq.jpg
    Round 15 will be published later on.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  24. Arp 273

    Arp 273

    Messages:
    93
    Even though I very much like the timesless Aston Martin design I feel this Vanquish '04 is not the best execution, especially the bulky hips. The Maserati GranTurismo '08 is a stunning looker, sporty and sophisticated, and it has a cool green lit dashboard.

    Took both cars for several AI races on a random selection of tracks. On straights the Vanquish is obviously faster but the GranTurismo wins a lot of time in the corners. Depending on track layout it can even be faster over a lap.

    In my experience most of the understeer of the Vanquish can be cured by staying off throttle completely. Even so, I could take and hold my lines much easier in the GranTurismo, maybe partly because it has beter brakes. The long 3rd gear is a blessing and a curse, it hampers accelleration but whole sections can be done in this gear without shifting and without wheelspin because of low(er) revs. It feels slow, sounds slow but is actually pretty fast.

    I enjoyed both cars. I like heavy cars with some oomph.:D Racing the Vanquish agains the AI isn't always a sure win, thats a plus. For me the Maserati GranTurismo S '08 ticks all the boxes, so it gets my vote this week.

    It's good to be back!
    :cheers:
     
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  25. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

    Messages:
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    Location:
    United States
    Aston Martin has had a place with me for as long as I can remember. I mean, cars like the DB7, V8 Vantage, and the preposterous Vulcan seem to have that edge that naturally gets a person's attention. Today I'm dealing with a V12 barge, the Vanquish. Why Aston decided to give it this name, I don't know. Looks are interesting at that, with a front end that looks ready to eat you complimented by a smooth rear end that I enjoy. Can't say much about inside because you know, standard car. Now when I say barge, I really mean that this is a big heavyweight to drive, a traditional characteristic of early 2000s Astons. This car has a ton of understeer, and a slight lack of power, but this one had the better noise in my opinion. Still, it drives like a muscle car, better off in a straight line.

    Maserati may as well be the Aston Martin of France. This company has made a few of the most iconic cars in history, such as the Bora. The GranTurismo S is the only Maserati in GT6, and I must say it does drive a little better than its rival. I prefer it's top down version, the Gran Cabrio, but either way it is somewhat decent. This one has a rather raspy V8 producing around 410 horses, and the last time I checked, it weighs less than the Vanquish. So as you may tell by now, my vote goes to.....

    The Maserati

    Both cars tested at Grand Valley East, no aids except ABS 1, SH tires:

    Vanquish: 1:13.104
    GranTurismo S: 1:12.729

    And the votes:

    Vanquish: 2
    GranTurismo S: 2

    Looks like we have a tie. You know the drill.


    Sudden Death

    Both cars tested one lap around Grand Valley East regardless of any accidents that may have happened.​

    Vanquish: 1:13.512
    GranTurismo S: 1:12.830

    And the winner is.....

    2008-maserati-granturismo-1_600x0w.jpg
    The '08 GranTurismo S!!!

    Congrats to Ema_RED82 for setting a winning time of 1:11.855 in the Maserati and for setting a winning time of 1:11.075 in the Vanquish!​
     
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  26. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

    Messages:
    5,538
    Location:
    United States
    Sorry for such short time between duels, but I won't be able to make any longer posts later today. Anyways, this week I thought I'd venture into a realm the DOTW has never been to, rally cars! This duel is.....

    bec37a44bd58dcff6601b88eaa52e5a8.jpg
    The 1999 Subaru Impreza Rally Car

    vs

    7bba7dfda196602312b3c0bb2afdd234.jpg
    The 1999 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI Rally Car!!!


    This week's TT will be at a custom mountain course of mine at Eifel, so with that.......

    Let the battle begin.​
     
  27. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

    Messages:
    1,187
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Sorry, bit late for the last duel, weird connexion issues preventing me from doing the online TT yesterday. My times :

    Trial Mountain (comfort softs, ABS 1)

    Aston Martin Vanquish 1:39.617
    Maserati Granturismo S 1:39.906


    Grand Valley East section (sports hard, ABS 1)

    Aston Martin Vanquish 1:10.648
    Maserati Granturismo S 1:11.346 (was having a better lap, probably in the 11.0 range, but got a freeze lag, doesn't matter that much though as it wouldn't have been faster than the Vanquish anyway)

    Custom track (comfort softs, ABS 1, oil change)

    Aston Martin Vanquish 4:04.459
    Maserati Granturismo S 4:04.629


    Two big coupes famous for being two of the most beautiful cars of their class. The Maserati being top 1 in my book as for luxury coupes styling : it somehow manages to look smaller than it really is, and has a nice blend of aggressive, yet refined design cues. The Vanquish has the characteristic post 2000s global design, which says "gentleman" a bit louder than "sports". But this one has a bit of a try-hard feature in the name of the rear quarter panels, which looks a bit like molded Rocket Bunny overfenders. In general, I think the Vanquish has suffered from the years more than the other ones from the first 21th century's decade, with rear lights that could have been featured on a Rover. But it has that nice sounding V12.

    The Aston Martin is definitely faster on the straights, with a more powerful engine, but also a better gearbox : 2nd to 3rd especially feels a bit odd on the Granturismo S, and makes it drop a bit under the powerband on corner exits. But the Aston has quite some understeer you can't really shake off completely : even when trying to make it slide and holding a drift, it will always want to grip back, and make you feel that front heavy balance. The Maserati is much more fun in that regard, as you can induce a nice sliding motion under braking or powerslide through corners, and hold it easily. And it doesn't take much to find traction back for exits, although it requires of course more focus than with the flegmatic Aston.

    The Vanquish is still a bit faster around a track, but this week I'm choosing the fun, so Maserati gets my vote as I enjoyed it quite more.
     
  28. MidFieldMaven

    MidFieldMaven

    Messages:
    3,410
    Location:
    United States
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    So far, the Subaru is faster by 3 tenths at Mid-Field, with both cars trying desperately to see a 1:20 fastest lap on Comfort Soft tires. Interesting to note I drove both cars a distance of 17 miles despite random restarts and such. But yeah, the Subie handles the corners better, at least in my opinion.
     
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  29. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

    Messages:
    1,489
    Location:
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    Since the online time trial is taking place on an original circuit, I'm gonna take a "non-combatant" for a few laps around the course so I can get familiar with the course and so none of the testing cars are at an unfair advantage.

    ______________________________________________________

    So after taking a Mitsubishi GTO around "Freight Hill" to get familiar with the track, I started my trials, and let me just say, it takes a little bit to get used to super well-behaved cars when you drive cars that like kicking their tail out, or wash out in corners, or don't turn nearly as much as you'd like when approaching corners at speed. Both cars were very tight and responsive.

    Freight Hill Trial:
    Impreza - 2:09.274
    Lancer - 2:07.497

    Rotenboden Trial:
    Impreza - 1:41.076
    Lancer - 1:39.264

    SSR5 Trial:
    Impreza - 1:28.972
    Lancer - 1:29.514

    The WRC was one of the more official bouts that these two 4WD Japanese sports cars duked it out in their long running rivalry. Because these are competition modified cars, they ease the drawbacks of the production models. It's honestly hard to tell which one is easier to drive, not to mention, they both have 300hp and weigh 1230kg to conform with WRC regulations, so there's not very much that distinguishes these two other than their looks. Though, my theory is that the deciding factor in this duel was in their gearing. The Lancer's power band showed that it delivered more of its torque at lower rpms, sooner than the Impreza's, so it could shoot out of corners quicker. Obviously, the Impreza did have one victory on the flattest track, but the nature of rallying means that most courses feature a variety of elevation changes.

    I favor the Lancer Evolution, and the driver behind the wheel who brought the car to win four WRC Championships in a row. I like the Impreza as well, but as my personal preferences, and my objective trials also show, the Lancer feels like it's the better choice, and thus gets my vote.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
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  30. Arp 273

    Arp 273

    Messages:
    93
    Wow, these cars are glued to the road!

    Wanted to do something different so I took these cars to the International Tour (carreer IA). Had a lot of fun there racing against similair cars. I can recommend to give it a go!

    Primarily ran on Spa, alternating cars. Both fly up Eau Rouge and Blanchimont is also easy flat. The Lancer is in the advantage here because of its higher max torque and differently spaced gearbox. The Impreza seems a little more balanced. It's all very close though.

    I'm going for the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI Rally Car '99 because it's a little faster, looks a bit better and it is a little less "standard"...:)
     
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