GT6 Duel of the Week #70: The Grand Finale (well, not really)

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by CowboyAce57, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. Ryk

    Ryk

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    1999 WRC showdown.
    implanevo6.jpg
    Richard Burns vs Tommi Mäkinen
    Subaru Impreza STi WRX vs Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 6

    Of course this was a rich period for the WRC, The Previous Year Mäkinen took the title only after Carlos Sainz's Toyota Corolla WRC broke down with 300 yards left, snatching defeat from the very jaws of Victory at the British Rally - Which was turning into a Richard Burns End of year show the amount of times he won his home event. 1998 was the last year for the venerable Ford Escort replaced by the Ford Focus. And a new team, Peugeot got the ball rolling with the 206 WRC. And you also had the SEAT Cordoba and the chunky Skoda Octavia... happy days!

    Now the main issue I have with these cars are the 4wd system - I don't enjoy driving them, but on the plus side they are not big blobby GT-R's or quattros... And they are both adjustable for maximum attack on any surface in any weather (Start behind a safety car because of water on the track surface...)



    *** Stage1 Monte Carlo Rally ***
    Brutal looks.
    The Lancer has a much more practical look to it, 4 doors and it looks longer and skinnier. The Impreza is a two door coupe and looks wider. The Lancer is also sharp straight lines, the Impreza has a soft rounded plumpness to it.

    Subaru takes the stage (Subaru 1 - Mitsubishi 0)​

    *** Stage2 Swedish Rally ***
    Livery
    Mitsubishi had a terrible Red Marlboro livery. For me it was a huge step down from the white with the Ralliart side Spearhead stripe.
    Subaru maintained the British American Tobacco feel but lost the overt branding while evolving the colours from Navy and Yellow to a lighter metallic Blue and

    Golden yellow. Golden Wheels.

    (Subaru 2 Mitsubishi 0)​

    *** Stage3 Safari Rally ***
    Can you use both wing mirrors? Well Kenya. (You have to put on a Thick Scottish Colin McRae accent to transform "Kenya" into "Can you")
    The Subaru has gone to an extreme by only having a single wing mirror... tsk tsk! The Lancer has two. And two is always better.
    lanbanner2.jpg

    (Subaru 2 Mitsubishi 1)​

    *** Stage4 Rally Portugal ***
    I am sure you could manage to twist the word Port into Door some how. (Portal maybe). But the Lancer has 4 doors... the Impreza only has two. And Two is always better.

    (Subaru 3 Mitsubishi 1)​

    *** Stage5 Rally Catalunya ***
    Engine note. Both cars have 2 litre 4 cylinder engines, And neither are great in GT6 but the Subaru is terrible. Round to the Mitsubishi!

    (Subaru 3 Mitsubishi 2)​

    *** Stage6 Tour de Corse ***
    Can I drift? Course I can. (The rally is on the Island of Corsica you see... Where Napoléon was from, You know the short French dude who liked to invade Russia. I found the Lancer had more Understeer issues with a default set up than the Impreza, which I could chuck about (And lose loads of time in beautiful smoky 4 wheel drifts!)

    Round to the Subaru (Subaru 4 Mitsubishi 2)​

    *** Stage7 Rally Argentina ***
    Around the Horn...
    The Impreza has a woeful Horn. The Lancer isn't exactly a brazen call to battle, but it is better than the Subaru's

    Mitsubishi Wins(Subaru 4 Mitsubishi 3)​

    *** Stage8 Acropolis Rally ***
    High city - High Power! - The Impreza spits out 299bhp of boxer power, but the Lancer stabs 300 with its straight 4 and looking at the power curve it is a much fatter power curve. (So more power, more of the time)

    Mitsubishi Wins(Subaru 4 Mitsubishi 4)​

    *** Stage9 Rally New Zealand. ***
    New Zealand, Famous for Sheep, Being far too good at Rugby, Staying 30 years behind the rest of the world and Making really smart films thanks to Peter Jackson. (Bad Taste, Brain Dead, Lord of the Rings) So which brand has a Bigger Film Presence?
    You may think the Mitsubishi has the bigger brand as Jackie Chan is an advocate for the brand since, forever, but do you remember those Cannonball Run films? Well Jackie Chan was in it in a super advanced... Subaru!

    Subaru Wins(Subaru 5 Mitsubishi 4)​

    *** Stage10 Thousand Lakes Rally ***
    (Yeah it was called the Rally Finland in 1999, but "Rule of cool" says...)
    Where do you find Lakes? In Valleys... so where else to test but Grand Valley Raceway (Grand in England is often a way to say "1000" )
    LanEvo6 (2m09.2)
    Impreza WRC (2m08.6)

    A Win for Pirelli comfort soft tyres and Subaru cars(Subaru 6 Mitsubishi 4)​

    *** Stage11 China Rally ***

    But what about the full race? Okay over the whole race the Lancer edged it.
    4m21.6 to 4m22.2 -

    Mitsubishi takes the stage Wins(Subaru 6 Mitsubishi 5)​

    *** Stage12 Rally San Remo ***
    In Italy Style is everything and they love Fusili pasta. So which has the more Torque? The Boxer engined in the Impreza twists out 48 eurotorques, but the Lancer manages to torque out 51.9 Eurotoques. Enough to put you in a spin!

    A Win for the powerful spin in the Mitsubishi (Subaru 6 Mitsubishi 6)

    *** Stage13 Rally Australia ***
    Engine capacity? Bigger is better. 1994cc from the Impreza, but 1997cc from the Lancer.

    lan flyer.jpg

    Mitsubishi Wins(Subaru 6 Mitsubishi 7)

    *** Stage14 Network Q Rally of Great Britain ***
    Those cunning money grubbing Brits getting a sponsorship deal on the name of the event! But It used to be the RAC Rally, so nothing is new who are just another firm that recovers broken down cars... But these Rally cars never break down... 300 yards away form the end of the stage... with the championship in your grasp. (What did I say? Why is Carlos Sainz looking so angrily at me for? Get a grip man that was so last year!)

    Who won the event in real life? Richard Burns! In the Impreza. (Subaru 7 Mitsubishi 7)


    Well that scuppered it.
    Which would I pick? The Peugeot 206... The Toyota Corolla WRC... Well not the Ford Focus! If I had to chose between the LanEvo6 and the 99 Impreza I would choose...

    The Subaru as to me it is the best of the Impreza's to look at and I prefer the look of the Lancer Evolution 4's livery of 1997. But as a pair they are very close on the track, as you can muck about with the suspension and gearbox the feel for the car is not as big a factor as you can tune your way out of understeer very quickly.

    Ryk chooses you, Subaru.

    imp banner.jpg
     
  2. Draggon

    Draggon

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    Nice comparison this week. I found the Subaru interesting. It felt like it had too much grip, or too much aero, almost like traction control was on. Very easy to drive at full pace but with understeer when pushed hard. The Evo was looser, faster, and not as easy to drive hard. It has some oversteer on corner entrance, which makes rotation better but can cause the tires to break loose if pushed too hard. The Suby's exhaust is not so good. I thought I had the volume on my headphones turned down. On the other hand, the Evo has a lovely, throaty rasp.

    Times at Freight Hill:
    Subaru: 2:06.888
    Evo VI: 2:05.846

    Verdict: Lancer Evo VI!

    Kudos to @Cowboy for this track. It suits these rally cars quite well!
     
  3. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    I'm a fan of rally cars, even ones from the late '90s. These two are no exception. Subaru and Mitsubishi have always been bitter rivals in the WRC, at least when the two were competing at the same time. So this week we have a legendary Impreza and an Evo VI. These two are different performers for sure, with the Impreza being tighter and the Evo being looser. It's essentially a choice between sound. The Impreza has GT6's generic Subaru racing exhaust, while the Lancer has a more raspy tone. Looks wise I go for the Impreza, however, I had more fun in the Evo.

    Both cars tested at a custom track, no aids except ABS: 1, RH tires:

    Impreza: 2:08.193
    Evo: 2:06.610

    And the votes:

    Impreza: 3
    Evo: 4

    And the winner is.....

    1999_Mitsubishi_Lancer_Evolution_VI_WRC_001_5650.jpg
    The '99 Evo VI Rally Car!!!

    Congrats to @Draggon for setting he winning time of 2:06.888 in the Impreza and for setting the winning time of 2:05.846 in the Lancer!​
     
  4. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    This week I got a suggestion from a person who never really had made himself known here. Hopefully you have some spare change on you, because this week's duel is......

    Pagani-Zonda-R-24137.jpg
    The 2009 Pagani Zonda R

    vs

    1.jpg
    The 2007 Ferrari FXX!!!

    (Thanks to @Nismonath5 for the suggestion!)

    This week's trial will be at Monza, and since the FXX comes on SH tires, I will allow tuning only to put RH tires on.​
     
  5. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

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    You don't need tuning allowed to upgrade tires online, that's two separate things ;)

    Enjoying holidays by the way, so I'll probably pass on this one as well, but looks like you'll have fun with this !
     
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  6. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Might want to hold off on the trial just yet, some of the regulations need modifying. At the time of this posting, both cars in their stock forms are too light for the online trial.
     
  7. Draggon

    Draggon

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    The TT will allow added weight, but I didn't register my time in case the weight issue is fixed.
     
  8. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    Will be fixed by tomorrow :tup:

    Edit: Fixed now
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
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  9. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Oh goody, the two mad Italian racing/hypercars.

    These are two cars that I would not drive otherwise quite honestly. There are other cars that are much more stable at the same PP as these. With that said, I favor one over the other. (Or rather, dislike one less than the other)

    Monza Trial:
    Zonda - 1:42.757
    FXX - 1:41.299

    Rotenboden Trial:
    Zonda - 1:31.533
    FXX - 1:34.542

    SSR5 Trial:
    Zonda - 1:20.149
    FXX - 1:19.238

    It would appear that the Ferrari won the duel and thus gets my vote. I want to stress that I do not like this car. You have to brake super-early compared to the Zonda to get through corners. The Zonda has more snap oversteer, but that's pretty much all you really have to deal with. The FXX's aerodynamics stiffens the car in corners (proved awfully fatal on the Rotenboden), and god help you if you breathe on the gas wrong on the exits of corners. On the Parabolica on Monza, both cars wiped out due to their issues, but the FXX's wipeout was far more time-wasting. Literally the only reason it beat out the Zonda was its straight line speed. Car moves like a rocket. (And is just about as finicky.) The FXX was a nightmare to control around the Rotenboden, hence why it lost that battle and lost it hard.

    But in the end, the loathesome Ferrari that you can only drive if you're part of Ferrari's VIP and only at a specific track, and only when Ferrari says you can drive it is the victor of this duel.
     
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  10. Ryk

    Ryk

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    hth zonda.jpg
    Right then, these are race cars Joe Schmoe on the street can buy and take to a track of their choosing and thrash it about. Oh, News just in, the Ferrari suits tell you where and when you can drive it... and bad news if you want to own one outside of Europe... you can't. Brutal!

    This is a Big dog battle, between the old firm of Ferrari and the former Lamborghini guy.

    In the Red Corner from Maranello in Italy wearing the Metallic Green Shorts with the White Stripes we have the
    FUR-ARR-EEE - EFFECKSECKS

    And Introducing

    In the Matte Black corner from Modena in Italy wearing Japanese Gold Shorts with Carbon Fibre trim we have the PAHGARKNEE ZONDAR ARRRRRRR

    Both fighters are Mid Engined Rear wheel drive using Naturally Aspirated V12 engines

    tapezonda.jpg
    .........FUR-RAH-REE - EFFECKSECKS................. PAH-GAR-KNEE ZONDUR ARRRRRRR....
    2,650 mm (104.3 in) Wheelbase 2,785 mm (109.6 in)
    4,832 mm (190.2 in) Length 4,886 mm (192.4 in)
    2,040 mm (80.3 in) Width 2,014 mm (79.3 in)
    1,127 mm (44.4 in) Height 1,141 mm (44.9 in) ​



    *** Round 1 ***Power ***
    Zonda R - 739bhp
    FXX - 788 bhp

    49 horses of extra oomph - And the Zonda's engine is pretty peaky for its power.

    Ferrari 10 - Pagani 9​

    *** Round 2 *** Displacement ***
    Zonda R - 5987cc
    FXX - 6262cc

    clkzondar.jpg

    Both naturally aspirated, the Ferrari is a Bigger Fatter version of the V12 in the Enzo, the Zonda actually uses a smaller sized engined than it's road going ancestor. Remarkable.

    Ferrari wins - Ferrari 10(20) - Pagani 9 (18)​

    *** Round 3 *** Torque ***
    Zonda R - 72.4 Eurotorques
    FXX - 70 Eurotorques

    The Zonda has a fatter, longer torque curve that is right in the top rev band. Tremendous.

    Ferrari 9(29) - Pagani 10 (28)

    *** Round 4 *** Weight***
    Zonda R - 1070kg
    FXX - 1155kg

    85kg - Not alot, but at Racing levels that is a huge amount of blubber to be lugging about.


    Ferrari 9(38) - Pagani 10 (38)

    *** Round 5 *** But how is the weight distributed ***
    Zonda R - 47:53
    FXX - 44:56

    This is a tough round to award points to now I think about it. Weight distibution is just one factor in the balance of a car, which a bit of Dark Magic in the Differential and suspension work will get a car fit a driver like a glove.
    Round even as they are both rearward skewed. I tend to enjoy a car with a greater weight over the rear axel.

    Ferrari 10(48) - Pagani 10 (48)

    *** Round 6 *** Engine note ***
    Zonda R - Pretty bland when you consider it has no silencer at all
    FXX - Better than the Pagani...

    Ferrari 10(58) - Pagani 9 (57)​

    *** Round 7 *** Negative Lift ***
    FXX - 150/200 FIXED
    Zonda R - 300/550 Adjustable (200-400/350-650)

    More Aero and Adjustable too... Even with the Zonda R's lowest settings it is planted to the track compared to the FXX.

    Zonda wins handsomely. This is the critical round, that lack of Aero is what makes the Ferrari such a galloping thoroughbred on the straights and yet such a wayward donkey in the corners.

    Ferrari 8(66) - Pagani 10 (67)

    *** Round 8 *** Suspension ***
    FXX - FIXED but you can adjust the brake balance... On those pathetic brakes!
    Pagani - Everything Adjustable.
    fezbrakes.jpg
    With no Suit from Ferrari telling you what you can't do you can tinker with the Zonda to your hearts content. So you can transform the car to suit you or the track, or both.

    Massive win for the Pagani

    Ferrari 8(74) - Pagani 10 (77)

    *** Round 9 *** Gearbox of tricks ***
    FXX - 6 speed FIXED
    Zonda R - 6 Speed Customiasable


    The Gearbox in the Ferrari is pretty good for the ultimate top speed, but the ability tinker is useful if your car never reaches that top speed.

    Win for the Zonda --- Ferrari 8(82) - Pagani 10 (87)

    *** Round 10 *** Differential Equations ***
    FXX 5/20/10 FIXED
    Zonda 7/30/15 Adjustable

    If the Ferrari handled well then why would you want to adjust it? But an expensive track car without flexibility is a backwards step.

    Win for the Pagani --- Ferrari 8(90) - Pagani 10 (97)


    *** Round 11 *** Tyres fitted as standard. ***
    FXX Sports Hard
    Pagani Race Hards

    When you factor in that Ferrari treat you as a client test driver, you only use the tyres they put on the car.

    Big win for the Pagani -Ferrari 8(98) - Pagani 10 (107)

    *** Round 12 *** Buying New Tyres ***

    This I found amusing - the Ferrari has some sort of discount when you buy tyres, Maybe the Pirelli guys know a Pagani owner will have to buy some sort of treaded tyres if they want to go out in damp conditions. Quick Easy Comparison - If you wanted to purchase a set of your very softest Sports Tyres the Ferrari will set you back 10,000 - for the Owner of the Pagani the very same tyres cost 10,750 Kazulas...

    Ferrari 10(108) - Pagani 9 (116)​

    *** Round 13 *** I bought the car Cash, Money. ***

    However much the Pirelli people squeeze a few kazulas out of you the People at Ferrari will squeeze even more.
    350,000 more and they stiff you on the tyres... At least I get to drive it home... I don't.

    FXX - 2,000,000 Kazulas
    Zonda R 1,650,000 Kazulas

    Both very expensive - but the Pagani is super cheap... 350,000 - that is...

    Ferrari 8(116) - Pagani 10 (126)

    The Refereee calls for the doctor, ythe FXX has taken a pummeling over the last few rounds but the Maranello trainers are not for throwing th towel in and the FXX has its fists up and is ready to start the next round.What a fighter!

    *** Round 14 Top Speed ***

    FXX - 251mph 4m37.6 (Lap)
    Zonda r - 209mph 5m29.0 (Lap)

    If you need a car to go fast and none of that pesky slowing down... then the Ferrari is miles faster.

    Ferrari 10(126) - Pagani 7 (133)​

    Heading into the final round it looks like the Ferrari will need some kind of Miracle on the track to get the win. We know it has the top speed but has it got any footwork in the twists of a classic track?

    *** Round 15 *** Track Test - Deep in the 15th round ***


    Deep Forest Raceway - Free Run

    (The Ferrari was upgraded to run on Race Hard Slicks)
    1m09.9 Zonda R (No Aids)
    1m11.3 FXX (With ABS and TCS and other Ferrari Big Boy effects)
    1m10.0 FXX(13 laps No Aids -)

    The Ferrari is a tough chestnut. You have to put in some track time to get a feel for a pretty stiff car that doesn't gift a driver much in the way of feedback. Then there is the huge lack of down force. The car takes a bit of getting used to finding the balance but once you do get dialled in, it was quite good fun, but the car was getting airborne over any crest was a sign the chassis and suspension are both set up for a billiard table smooth track without any undulations... it was also fussy into corners, it would lock up but then the brakes would fade even if you just floored the brakes (Rather than locking up) Getting the car to slow down was a proper chore. It does force you to relearn a track as the car is very punchy out of corners so you are really barrelling into the next brake zone at a fair old lick. You just have to remember
    "Brake Early, Brake Often" for your first dozen laps, otherwise the Armco will call your name!

    The Zonda R for me was pretty easy to chuck about, and I set a sub 70 second lap on my third lap just turning up the volume in a steady manner. I didn't think much of the time until I gave the Ferrari a trial. The FXX was difficult, but if you give it time it was fun, It has much better straight line performance, On my data logger traces you could see that any straight bit, the Ferrari would dominate the Pagani. But the in the corners the Pagani was far more planted.

    Neither car is easy to drive BUT one of the reasons the Zonda R got loads of points was you can adjust things off the bat, without buying extra stuff... and in real life, you can't alter the settings on the FXX...

    Ferrari 9(135) - Pagani 10 (143)
    winner zonda.jpg
    Pirate Captain Ryk Recommends the Pagani Zonda Arrr!
     
  11. Arp 273

    Arp 273

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    Both cars have been collecting dust in my garage for a long time, great to get them out again. Drove them stock on the IA 600pp touringcar championchip race on Bathurst. I did reset the suspension on the Pagani to the new default values.

    Of course the Zonda made mincemeat of the field. It was fast, easy to drive and looked great flying over the mountain. Sound was not impressive in cockpit. Exteriour is better, but stil too weak. That really is a let down an probably the reason I don't normally use it.

    The FXX also looks great and sounds better. Driving it is something else.. You have to be fully focussed. Hard on the brakes, they will not lock up even without ABS. Easy on the throttle or you will be taking a closer look at the wall in no time. The bumpy surface did unsettle the car a lot. SH tires and low down force mean you have to work for every corner. It really is a hand full, and then some..

    To me it seemed that the FXX had more grip on the racing line. Whether it was braking, steering or putting down the power, it all felt smoother when on the line. There it was (almost) driveable. Off the line it was a mess. Never noticed that in GT6 in this way, very cool.

    The Ferrari FXX '07 is both fun and frustrating at the same time. A challenge for a driver to get the most out of it while keeping it on the black stuff. The workout from the FFB combined with the intens and prolonged concentration needed is a rewarding experience. At least, I like it..
     
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  12. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    The FXX is an interesting piece of work. It has a ton of power, is lightweight, and you're not allowed to drive it unless Ferrari tells you too. Restrictions aside, you can thrash this one about all you want in GT6, provided you have enough money. The car costs $2,000,000 in the dealerships, or $1,000,000 more than its Enzo counterpart. It packs 788 HP from a V12 used on the Enzo, and had a shift paddle system nearly equivalent to F1 machines. Driveability is not easy though. Often times in corners the car would show its unevenness by oversteering and such, so some caution is needed when driving this car.

    Horacio Pagani released his legendary Zonda in the early 2000s, and in 2009 came the Zonda R. Pagani themselves describes it as not just "a" supercar, it's "the" supercar. Packing a Mercedes Racing V12 underneath, the Zonda R produces 750 HP and 710 ft-lb of torque, all with a dry weight of 1,070 kg. This too is a track car, having rivals like the FXX and the Maserati MC12. On the track it was fun, not having over aggressive power and feeling more stable than the Ferrari. A really cool feature with this one if that if you paint the body, the interior dashboard is painted the same color also. So this week, I vote for......

    The Zonda

    Both cars tested at Monza, no aids except ABS 1, RH tires:

    FXX: 1:43.803
    Zonda R: 1:42.974

    And the votes:

    FXX: 2
    Zonda R: 2

    Alrighty then.....

    Sudden Death

    Both cars tested one lap around Monza, regardless of any incidents or accidents.

    FXX: 1:43.821
    Zonda R: 1:43.103

    And the winner is.....

    B3CD2F5F-0AA5-4177-BF6F-50452EB7BE50_0.jpg
    The '09 Zonda R!!!

    Congrats to @ThrasherDBS for setting the winning time of 1:42.757 in the Zonda R and for setting a winning time of 1:41.299 in the FXX!​
     
  13. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Oh wow, I won something. That's cool. Of course, probably by virtue that only @Draggon was the only other competitor. Even then, you usually dust my times.
     
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  14. Draggon

    Draggon

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    You had be by 7 tenths in the Pagani, @ThrasherDBS, I really don't think I could have made up the difference :tup: I had a brain fart or something, and forgot to give the FXX a run. But, hey, a win is a win!
     
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  15. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

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    I recieved a suggestion a few weeks ago from a regular participant. These two cars are completely different from each other, so this week's duel is.....

    1.jpg
    The 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra R

    vs


    NISSAN-Skyline-GT-R--R32--4036_12.jpg
    The 1989 Nissan Skyline GT-R (R32)!!!
    (Thanks to @ThrasherDBS for the suggestion!)

    A horse vs a monster, seems fair enough. This week's trial is at Special Stage Route 5, because nighttime. A note, starting next week, I will start selecting people to name future duels, since it seems as though I'm doing whatever I want with this, plus I'm not getting many suggestions. Now if you'll excuse me, I need some sleep.....​
     
  16. Neddo

    Neddo

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    winner is obvious
     
  17. Marc30599

    Marc30599

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    Umm its not :odd::odd: the winner is Takeshi Nakazato's R32 GT-R jk jk :lol::lol::lol:
     
  18. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

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    Two of my favorite cars. This is gonna be sweet.
     
  19. Ryk

    Ryk

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    Both good looking cars - and I didn't mention any fluff on the Zonda R or the FXX's looks... I must be slipping.

    Mustang... nice and low... but look at the curve of the bonnet maybe they snuck a powerful engine under there? Rearward side windows looks a bit Fairlady 300ZX from 1989 - and look at those side mounted exhaust pipes. Bolt on Rear Spoiler... all it needs are its underpants on the outside and a big cape fluttering in the breeze.

    The Skyline - looks like a normal looking bloke in a nice suit... is it some feeble playboy going to an exclusive party or some Zen black belt in Shorinji Kempo working part time as a nightclub bouncer waiting to keep the streets safe from idiots. (I've no idea what flavour of Martial Arts Batman does!)

    Is the Mustang; Clark Kent or Superman?
    Is the Skyline; Bruce Wayne or Batman?
    But who would win in a fight?
    Will it all be set up by Lexus "LFA" Luthor?

    Tune in this weekend to find out...
    Zac Snyder will not be able to direct this barn burner.
     
  20. Ryk

    Ryk

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    holy double post batman!
     
  21. MisterWaffles

    MisterWaffles Premium

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    Alright guys, I'm back from my soul searching, or killing Cthulu, or drifting around the mid-western US with nothing but a $20 bill and a bedroll, but I'm defiantly, definitely back. Hope you didn't miss me too much.

    (I was actually just playing Project Cars a lot)

    Expect a review tomorrow afternoon sometime, maybe even a new Legends of GT entry over in the Reviews and Feedback section.

    I'm very excited to be jumping back into the GT6 subforums after an almost two month absence.
     
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  22. MisterWaffles

    MisterWaffles Premium

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    0 Title Card.jpg

    GT6 Duel of the Week Episode 59: Skyline V Mustang: Dawn of Understeer

    Gemasolar_2.jpg

    Will our mild mannered racing car driver be able to keep up with the demands of both cars? Will he choose the way of the computer or typewriter? Will the wizard beat out the snake infestation? Do I ask too many questions? All but one of these questions will be answered on the next installment of the Reviews/Comparisons show!

    These two cars, and their backstories are pretty much the same. They are both continuations of classic models that are beefed-up versions of existing models produced in factories. No sheds in England or Italian racing pedigrees to worry about, it's just two factory-backed hotrods about to duke it out for JDM or Domestic supremacy.

    1 Test Drive and Lap Times.jpg


    Now, if we truly want to see if both cars live up to their specs or stereotypes we have to bring them down to the track. I think the consensus on both of these cars is that the Mustang is like Superman, a good ol' classic American icon that uses his raw power and fists to tackle any problem he faces, while the GT-R is like Batman. He's cunning and uses his superior intelligence, good looks and technology to elevate himself to the level of his rivals. (BTw tHanks to @Ryk for lettinG me steel the Soupermun stuuf © ™ do not steal)

    Trial One: Madrid
    Mustang: 1:29.007
    Skyline: 1:27.906

    In the city trial, it seemed pretty apparent that the Nissan is easier to get around the corners than the Mustang, its suspension from antiquity really catches the Mustang off-guard. I guess you could say that the City is the 'Stang's Kryptonite
    thXUWL5F0J.jpg

    Trial Deux: Austria (Germany's Backyard)
    Mustang: 1:50.525
    Skyline: 1:52.494

    The Skyline has no torque compared to the Mustang, so it's not very fast on the Red Bull Ring.

    Trial Evolution: See waht I did ther?
    Mustang: 2:10.748
    Skyline: 2:07.804

    The Skyline is much more capable on a dirt track than the Mustang because it has 4WD and better suspension, raw power doesn't win a rally, suspension magic does. (I did this trial on a custom Liege Gravel on GT5 because that track is just so good)

    So the Skyline won two out of three scenarios. On to the Drag Race

    2 Drag Race.jpg

    So in the Drag Trial, it seems Superman is easily able to put Bruce in his place. The Mustang did the two-mile course in 53.27 seconds at 286km/h, and the Skyline did it in 55.93 seconds at 267km/h. The Mustang engine's torque is loads more than the Skyline, so it's simple math that the FR gets the advantage over the 4WD at the drag strip.

    3 Paint Chips.jpg

    The Skyline has a few shades, and a very light blue from what I remember, but there are many more variants of this car with different batsuits to choose from. The Mustang has no paint chip options whatsoever, Performance Red or bust. The Skyline wins.

    4 Customization.jpg

    Both cars have about equal customization options, with the only real differences between the two being the ability to change wing sizes. Nobody wins here.

    5 Tuning.jpg

    Tuning is very situational here, but I'm giving the overall vote to the Mustang, it's a favourite among drag tuners for it's ability to equip the almighty Supercharger. I've seen this thing modified take down Aventadors and FXX's on the strip, around Daytona too. The unbeatable tunes for the Mustang have cemented itself into the discipline. It's not to be toyed with on the track though. Winner = Mustang

    6 Sound.jpg

    The sound for the GT-R is very strange in this game, the Mustang sounds like the same generic V8 that most standard cars utilise. Both cars are around equal in GT6's sound department. There are much nicer sounding cars than these two in the games, but if I were to pick one, it would be the Mustang that wins.

    7 Design and Styling.jpg

    This round is instantly going to the Skyline, the wing on the Mustang looks garish and the whole thing looks like one big ugly monster of a machine. The Skyline is leages more subdued and refined than the Ford, so it wins this one for me.

    8 Drifting and Online Popularity.jpg

    Good ol' round eight. So far it's a 3-3 tie, so let's try to figure out which one is more used. Oh wait. The Skyline and Mustang are both staples of the GT6 drifting community, so I can't really choose one over the other.

    9 Final Thoughts.jpg

    Gemasolar.jpg

    Starting with the Skyline, what a car this one is. The 4WD might make it understeer in some higher-speed corners, but if it's on the right track, then the GT-R really comes into it's own. Tight/technical circuits are this car's bread and butter. It can easily beat the sometimes clumsy Mustang through the tight corners, and that's where it made up time in the higher speed tracks, which are unfortunately this car's downfall.

    Gemasolar_1.jpg

    The Mustang is the 100 meter sprinter of the car world. It sure is fast, but its somewhat clumsy. It turns as well as Fred Flintstone's car in the slow, tight corners. (which oddly enough, true fact, lends it's suspension to this car: a large rod with two wheels on the end called a MacPherson strut) It's very good for some applications like the GT-R, but it needs to stay away from tracks like Tsukuba and Madrid. Maybe even the 90-degree chicane on Monza too.

    So it's still a 3-3 tie, time to roll out the Brand Bias Vegetable Tray :)

    The only round in Reviews/Comparisons where the brand I like more gets an instant win! It's super cheap, but super easy to write!

    10 Tiebreaker.jpg

    It's been a while since this slide was touched, now to decide a winne....

    Compress0.jpg

    ....This just in, the Mustang crashed on the way to the Tiebreaker. Oh No! Now we only have one possible car to give the trophy too! Oh, Dear! Oh Brother!

    The winner is Bruce Wayne:

    thNC2OZLAQ.jpg






     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  23. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    United States
    While most people tend to immediately make jokes about the Mustang that "can't turn", I'm sure people do realize that the GT-R had a reputation for being pretty understeery as well. But that's neither here nor there.

    [​IMG]

    The two cars in this photo are a couple of my "elite" cars on my favorites list. The Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R has been a very faithful car to me ever since GT3, a car that carried me through a large portion of the game in GT3 and GT4. Whereas the "gamebreaking" cars in GT5 and GT6 were more readily obtainable, this is still one of the first cars I bought when I had some petty cash to spend. This was 6-year old me's favorite car of all time, and while I do have more desirable cars in mind now that I'm 22, this still remains a very faithful car to me.

    The R32 up there is the premium 1994 model that served me well in recent playthroughs of GT1, and was a good online racer in GT5 and in GT6. It has style and has definitely been a fierce competitor. The 1989 model that is being tested in this duel is a fair bit heavier than the '94 model and isn't quite as spritely. Though, there's a reason the red R emblem is feared.

    SSR5 Trial:
    Mustang - 1:37.781
    R32 - 1:38.178

    Rotenboden Trial:
    Mustang - 1:49.650
    R32 - 1:52.305

    I can definitely see why most people would flock to the R32. It's a legendary Japanese sports car for a good reason, whereas the generation of Mustang that I fawn over doesn't even fit the definition of muscle car. It more fits "some spoiled valley girl's sweet 16 present" vibe. Given that this is a track-beast and my prior history with the car, I think it's pretty understandable why I'd be more skillful with the Mustang.

    Granted, the understeer jeers towards the Mustang aren't without reason and with the traction control off, the Skyline can kick the tail out if you push it hard enough. Bottom line is, I love both of these cars. There's a variety of reasons why the GT-R and the Mustang are in my fairly exclusive favorites list. Either of these cars would be very solid and dependable performers.

    The Mustang that forms part of the basis for my online moniker is the winner of the duel, and I feel that it's a well-earned victory.
     
    GT_Alex74, Draggon, Arp 273 and 5 others like this.
  24. MidFieldMaven

    MidFieldMaven

    Messages:
    3,410
    Location:
    United States
    Nissan Skyline GT-R (R32) '89
    2.6L
    304 hp / 6,600 rpm
    289 ft-lb / 4,400 rpm
    1,430 kg (3,153 lbs)
    453 pp

    Ford Mustang Cobra R '00
    5.4L
    365 hp / 5,600 rpm
    385 ft-lb / 4,500 rpm
    1,628 kg (3,589 lbs)
    476 pp

    The beefed-up Mustang dominates the R32 in the power department, boasting 61 more horses and 96 more ft-lbs of torque. The sad thing is that it also weighs 198 kg (436 lbs) more than the GT-R. Yikes. Let's see how they do at Mid-Field!




    So the Mustang is a full second faster. Hmm...What was their maximum speed on track?

    143 mph - Mustang
    136 mph - GT-R

    Minimum speed through Turn 1:

    68 mph - Mustang
    68 mph - GT-R

    Not much else I can add. It comes down to personal preference. V8 or twin-turbo Inline-6. FR or 4WD.

    If I want a relaxed drive, I'd get behind the wheel of a GT-R. If I want a thrill ride of a rollercoaster, I gotta have that big-power V8 delivering all of its mighty power to the rear. I love the GT-R's up through the R34, when you could shift your own gears using a clutch pedal. They're fun in their own way, and more consistent, but I dunno. Something draws me to the Mustang. Maybe it's because I became a Ford owner for the first time a few months ago and now I have a bias.

     
  25. Ryk

    Ryk

    Messages:
    3,144
    Location:
    England
    In the Performance Red Corner, From Dearborn Michigan the "New Edge" Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R. With no Radio, no air conditioning and no rear seats (Backseat delete) and no cruise control.


    And in the Gun Grey Metallic Corner - from Musashimurayama (Westish bit of the Megacity that is Tokyo), Japan the third generation Nissan Skyline GT-R. With more gadgets and doohickies than Batman's Utility Belt.

    The Bookmakers have the Big American as a hard favourite, being 23pp up on the scale. But We in the know at the Daily (GT) Planet know just how accurate that is! Can the fact the Nissan has all wheel drive and some forced induction power boost as well as a huge lightness advantage of 198KG - 435.5 English pounds.

    Which do I favour before I drive them? Which ever has the least Nicosteer... (Thanks Sniffpetrol!)


    *** Round 1 *** Bargain Hunt ***

    Nice simple opening round and the Japanese car is quite a lot cheaper, 44,500 vs 57,300

    Skyline 10 - Mustang 9​

    *** Round 2 *** Fear my Powah ***

    384bhp from the 'stang, but only 276 from the Nissan... hold on, have they been telling tall tales about how much power they have been generating. 3 points deduction for telling fibs! (304bhp on the Skyline in reality)

    Skyline 5(15) Mustang 10(19)

    *** Round 3 *** Tipping the scales at... ***
    1430kg - 54:46 skyline
    1628kg - 56::44 mustang
    The GTR is 198kg lighter. Round to the Nissan

    Skyline 10(25) Mustang 8(27)​

    *** Round 4 *** Low End Grunt ***

    The Turbos in the Nissan spool out a nice 36 Torques, but the Ford grinds a powerful 53... oh dear, is that Skyline sandbagging again... Not only does it lose the round but I'll deduct more points from it. (40 Eurotorques of Torque kgfm)

    Skyline 5(30) Mustang 10(37)

    *** Round 5 *** Paint it Black ***

    The Mustang maybe trying to evoke the badly misquoted Henry Ford line "Any colour you like, so long as it is Black..." Here we have Performance Red - which is nice but... What if you don't like fire truck red? The Nissan doesn't have many colours only 5 None are silly, - Thankfully both cars will accept a fresh lick of paint. But the Skyline has more of a range (Black Silver, Gun Metal and a Dark Blue and Dark Red) - but none of them are brash enough to dominate the round.

    Skyline 10(40) Mustang 9(46)​

    *** Round 6 *** Looks only a mother could love? ***

    Now this isn't easy, the Skyline looks far more... civilized. Sure, it as a few hints of performance, a flare of the wheel arches, a slight little rear wing on the boot lid, But the Mustang is really trying hard... Oversized rear wing, Side Exhausts, A Bonnet that if it were any steeper you'd need to put slate roof tiles on it, and it has a louvered top that a cheese crater would be proud to have. Maybe a lick of paint would alter things, The Mustang was trying for the "racey" angle, (Lets be fair it did hit that target very well.)
    The Skyline was almost trying to look subtle. Refined and clean lines... and looking back a pretty good design that has dated pretty well.
    Hard to compare the pair... so round shared as I like both of them looks wise.

    Skyline 10(50) - Mustang 10(56)

    *** Round 7 *** Proportional representation ***

    What? well which is better? A Longer Wider Lower car? Or a Shorter, Thinner car with a high roof line? - A Jaguar XJ220 or a Fiat Punto?
    So the numbers are in and the winner is the... Mustang, which is Longer, and wider and is also closer to the ground.

    Skyline 9 (59) - Mustang 10 (66)


    *** Round 8 *** Engine Note ***

    Naturally Aspirated V8 versus Turbocharged Straight 6
    On paper the Mustang should dominate this bit, Turbochargers tend to mute the purity of the engine note, and a V8 is a classic harmonic that is very easy on the ear, an inline 6 can feel a bit mechanical and harsh to human ears. But in GT6 the sound is ..mediocre.

    Mustang - Nice V8 in car, a bit deep
    GT-R Buzzing Turbo six - nice high rev but I preferred the V8.

    Skyline 9 (68) - Mustang 10 (76)

    *** Round 9 *** Faster than a bullet from a gun... ***

    Let my B Spec driving do the leg work. The Skyline only has 5 gears, and a powerful peaky engine which could spell some acceleration issues or maybe a compromised top speed. But left on its own it could get to 178mph. The Mustang however has 6 gears are a power curve that has a flat top like some ancient butte from Monument Valley(Cowboy Films.) The Gearbox has 6 but they are a bit compromised in the actual ratios But they get the job done letting the 'stang get to close to 200mph.
    Mustang 197mph (6m05.8 - lap)
    Skyline 178mph (6m38.4 - lap)


    Skyline 8 (76) - Mustang 10 (86)


    *** Round 10 *** Winged Serpant - Quetzalcoatl***

    Both have rear wings, but I have good and bad news... the Good news is the Mustang can have it taken away, The bad news is it provided no down force anyway!
    The Skyline wings is by far more subtle compared to the Mustang, And the fact the Fords wing does nothing for performance and is very much slapped on as an after thought to the look of the car doesn't make me happy. The Skylines wing does provide a modest bit of aero over the rear axel - maybe generating more understeer as the fronts will give up traction first... You can't remove the Nissan rear wing, which is a shame but the round obviously goes to the car with a wing that does something rather than some tinsel that does nothing.

    Skyline 10 (86) - Mustang 9 (95)​


    *** Round 11 *** Motegi East - Fast lap ***
    (Both cars will easily win the latest seasonal race event - nice way to get some Kazunori Credits for those paint chips and oil changes)

    1m38.3 Mustang
    1m39.4 Skyline

    Win by over a second for the Mustang
    (All times were set with no driver aids - Which is unfair as the GT-R is all about Cheaty driver assists and electronic crutches.) - And Batman is ALL about gadgets - The Bat Antilock brakes, The BAT traction control, The BAT shark repellent spray, the Bat four wheel steering...

    Skyline 9 (95) - Mustang 10 (105)

    *** Round 12 *** Motegi East - 3 laps in traffic ***

    Motegi East
    5m28.8 Mustang
    5m33.8 Skyline

    Skyline 9 (104) - Mustang 10 (115)

    The Referee has stopped the fight at the end of the 12th round. Ref has stopped the fight. The Mustang is just too far ahead. (I was going to run more at Motegi (Purely for cash reasons you understand, Hey those Baterangs aren't cheap! but it was obvious the Mustang was just faster here.)

    WIN For The MUSTANG COBRA R by SVT


    Post script.
    Mustang - very simple to understand, you get power oversteer out of a corner which can effortlessly be balanced with a dab of oppo - It's still a heavy car so you can overwork the fronts into a corner... the car is a bity soft and wallowy and if you are a driver who likes to saw away at the steering to find the perfect balance, you may find the car very tough. If you are a silky smooth driver who is graceful with the steering then the car is much more your thing. Bit of body roll never hurt anyone! The Engine is just a beast - lashings of power and torque, but very managable. Simple pleasures.


    Slyline - Understeer. The car isn't one for attacking the apex, it isn't too keen for rotating either when compared to the softly sprung 'Stang. After driving the Mustang you would expect the second test to have a lower time just for the driver sobering up and getting the lines right, but the GT-R was less willing to alter direction.
     
  26. Draggon

    Draggon

    Messages:
    2,052
    My estimate of the Skyline is that you get the disadvantage of wheel spin with power to the rear wheels, the disadvantage of understeer with power to the front wheels, and close to zero benefit from power to all the wheels. I may be pretty harsh, but as it comes from the dealer I find the only plus is that its fun to drive at a leisurely pace. It seriously needs tuning.

    The Mustang on the other hand was fun. I felt pretty much under control during the TT, and although it has some significant understeer during braking, it didn't make me want to throw it into the stockyard when I was done. It really needs the benefit of an LSD or at least TC. I threw a very basic tune onto it and it brought it to life. I was surprised.

    Vote: Mustang Cobra R
     
  27. Arp 273

    Arp 273

    Messages:
    93
    I think its cool that the Skyline R32 has the original specs in the dealership and much higher power and torque when its in your garage. Cheaty... That might explain partly why the 453pp Nissan can keep up with the 476pp Ford. That, and it higher cornering speeds.Go in too fast and it's all understeer, but get it right and you can drift slide through the corner like it's not even there.

    The Mustang Cobra is much more composed and relaxed. I also think it looks better and it sure sounds better. It was nicer to drive and i liked watching the suspension movements on replays.

    Was the first time I drove them as normally I use cars with full interiours. I actually liked both but I prefer the Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R '00.

    ps. Cowboy I think you are doing a great job in selecting cars for the duels. Makes me appreciate all the cars in GT even more.
    :gtpflag:

     
  28. GT_Alex74

    GT_Alex74

    Messages:
    1,187
    Location:
    Switzerland
    No online TT for me this time as it seems the game didn't want me to open any kind of lobby.

    Trial Mountain (comfort softs, ABS 1) :

    Nissan Skyline GT-R (R32) '89 >>> 1:41.771
    Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R >>> 1:41.853

    Custom track (comfort softs, ABS 1, oil change) :

    Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R >>> 4:07.310
    Nissan Skyline GT-R (R32) '89 >>> 4:07.513


    So on the west side, we have a fearful, but feared (especially in the desert) hybrid pony-snake creature with powerful V8 venom and big hoofs you don't want to be kicked with. It looks a bit like a retired dragster that now wants to have fun on track, or an averagely fit guy who's been hit with steroids in the face.
    On the east side, we have a legendary nuclear giant dinosaur which makes japanese people go all traumatic with nightmares of destroyed cities with feet so big they account for 2 wheels each, but is also feared by Aussies from Mount Panorama, trying to hide its muscles under a suit (R32 look more impressive in real life than on screen I must say).
    Both cars has not been sold here in Europe officially, but I still got to ride two R32 versus no Cobra R ever seen in real life. R32 are cars I like, despite being a bit disappointed by the lack of sensations in a 400hp one compared to the sensations you have with a similarly powered Impreza or Lanevo. I'd still love to own a Group A replica.

    Obviously the Mustang, having quite more grunt, totally forgets the very existence of the Skyline on straight lines, and you feel helpless when you see that Cobra ghost pulling away in front. But the Ford suffers from a global lack of front grip, combined with some lack of progressivity from the rear end : when using the e-brake to dive in tight corners and hairpins, it is pretty difficult to just keep that slide with a low angle, as the limit between not-enough-throttle-understeer and too-much-power-goes-into-smoke full drift. The R32 feels much more reactive and lively, which makes it more precise and easier to point in the direction you wish. It is also easier to control with the throttle once you figure out how to make the mechanic ATTESA send power to the rear wheels : you just have not to fear to slam the throttle on the floor to "activate" it, then lift a bit for control, and that way you can go around slow corners with a low angle and regular slide, and power out of it sooner than with the Cobra R.

    Times are really close there, but with no doubt the Cobra R would be quite faster than the GT-R on most racetracks as the straight line difference is just too big. But I'm still voting for the Nissan as I enjoyed the ride more. It would certainly fit my uses more, and can be easily boosted (and should be) for more intense butt kicks.
     
  29. Cowboy

    Cowboy Premium

    Messages:
    5,538
    Location:
    United States
    Mustangs haven't always had a great reputation. Talk to a car guy nowdays and he'll ask how many times you've crashed leaving a car show. However, this week we have a high performance version, with ~385 HP under the hood and looks that would challenge other cars. The Cobra R has a chinsy appearance, with a big front splitter, a hood so high it probably has the visibility of a Camaro, side exhausts, and a rear wing to top it off in the rear. This, like @ThrasherDBS said, was one of my go to cars in GT3. It seemed to have the right performance for its money. GT6 wise, the car acts a little numb from the understeer upon corner entry. But get on the straights, and you'd better be ready to see that rear bumper as the car flies by. Only downside to this one is cornering, which can be fixed with some minor tweaks.

    Then we have the original Godzilla. Coming from Japan's finest touge roads and mountains, this 4WD beast is one of my personal favorites of all time. Before the R34 fanbase, before the Nürburgring crusher known as the R35, we had this. It's got that late eighties and early nineties vibe, with a semi-aggressive front and smooth lines making their way back. Powered by a 300 HP RB25DET powerplant, and being a more tunerish car, you'd think that this could outperform a Mustang. Not so fast though, as this car was actually slower on the straights, and had more unforgiving understeer. On the bright side, this one did feel more stable from its 4WD, but in the end I prefer more if a challenge. So this week as a totally nonbias Mustang way, I choose.....

    The Cobra R

    Both cars tested at Route 5, no aids except ABS 1, SH tires:

    Mustang: 1:39.061
    R32: 1:39.719

    And the votes:

    Mustang: 6
    R32: 2

    And the winner is.....

    2000_cobra_r.JPG The '00 Cobra R!!!
    (smell that rubber)

    Congrats to @ThrasherDBS for getting a winning time of 1:37.781 in the Mustang and for setting a winning time of 1:38.178 in the Skyline! ​
     
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  30. ThrasherDBS

    ThrasherDBS

    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    United States
    Thank you for indulging me posting a duel with my two favorite cars!

    I look forward to the next one, wonder what tomorrow has in store.