GT6 Framerate depends on which console you have.

[xSNAKEx]

So, performance wise, what's best display setting in GT6 ? flicker reduction, normal or sharpen ?

Have you tried racing in the rain at 100% weather, 100% water on track, arcade pro - 10 AI, say at Bathurst, save the replay and play the replay at 1080p ? I am sure even the best Slim will have lots of dropped frame when there are more than 3 premium cars in view.

HDMI set to limited, deep colour off in ps3 XMB. GT6 options set to sharpen imagine. Super white in XMB seems to have no effect on fps.

Ok I will try give that a go. The problem is its difficult to show how anything runs since I dont have a 60fps+ camera or better yet a capture card and analysis software. This is what you would need to demonstrate anything. And anything I upload on Youtube will be re-encoded yet again at a max of 29fps.
You would see the frame and any choppiness of the phone camera I have instead of the game. Its like taking a picture of a new good quality TV or 3d TV with a phone camera. Its impossible.

 

[xSNAKEx]

Not sure, but don't you need the latest firmware to play online? I'm always updated when there's a new one.

No 4.53 is an optional update.

 

[Griffith500]

I am aware of the technical details (have a degree in Computing Science) and nothing you have said here says anything about performance degrading at higher temps. (The 65nm refers to the thickness of the silicon wafer by the way).

In fact what you are saying, is goes along with my over clocking comments, whereby CPUs that run cooler can typically be clocked higher without *crashes*.

What I am not buying here is these tales of slow downs on identically *clocked* CPUs between fat and slim, regardless of their manufacturing details or operating temps.

The info that fire dragon gave is interesting, and suggests that it is possible that it does happen, but I would be surprised if it is that aggressive as the game would always run slower as the CPU heats up. Leading to a very inconsistent experience.

I have access to both a fat and a slim and I see no difference whatsoever in the performance of the game.

No, you're missing the point. I've seen computers come off building sites, caked with dust and dirt that barely ran because there was effectively no cooling duty available, meaning temperatures rocketed immediately and thermal controls kicked in (throttling heat generation and stabilising the temperature rise accordingly). Once cleaned up (fans replaced as necessary, etc.), they ran perfectly fine.

You might have a degree in computer science, but this is most likely a heat transfer issue since, as you said, they're all clocked the same. If people's PS3s don't cool well, or run hotter for other reasons, there's a chance they'll bump into the thermal limit "sooner", in terms of computational load - which, as your degree should tell you, basically determines the input power of the heat transfer equation (depending on the efficiency of the electrical processes on the chip, at the transistor level - which I guess you don't understand either*).

And saying that you personally have sampled two PS3s is no better than the OP's three, which is what you were arguing against in the first place.


The facts stand: the degree to which GT5 slowed down was variously (and passionately) reported, the same seems to be true of GT6. It's possible that some PS3s do struggle that little bit more to run such demanding games - perfectly possible, given all the factors involved. One of which that I neglected to mention was the display - for example, frame interpolation may hide or exacerbate the visual "symptoms" of slow down, depending on the symptom and the interpolation method. Then there's pixel switching times, too...


Regardless, the take away lesson here is to keep your PS3 in good nick to give it the best chance of running as well as it can, i.e. as new (however "good" an example it was new).


* It seems to be related to the shorting interval between a transistor's (and its "complement"'s) on and off states, as it's switched - that shorting allows a relatively large current to flow compared with either switched state. The time it takes for the transistor to switch is affected by the capacitances in the "circuit" the transistors immediately sit in, i.e. we're looking at the "time constant" of the equivalent RC circuit. It turns out that, e.g. SOI, and progressively thinner wafers of such construction, offer progressively less capacitance (than trad. CMOS) and hence faster switching times, thus less time spent shorting for a given clock speed and finally less power wasted as shorting current, generating less heat through resistance. Here, now, it should be obvious how manufacturing tolerances and process idiosyncrasies might come into play.

 

[novcze]

I only reported what I observed on the models I tested.

Yeah, some people also swear what they observed is magic :-)

I tried various configurations of settings, I guess mostly I ran with the game with deep color on but dynamic range to limted.

GT6 doesn't support deep color, games are rendered in 8-bit RGB (Full Range RGB = ON), also Super-white setting have nothing to do with games.

On top of this, there can also be manufacturing differences, even between the same models. Keep in mind the cell processor has one core as a "backup". I am not sure what this means but its possible they have it there just in case one of the cores tuns out to be a dud during manufacture and they can still use the chip instead of throwing it away. They can possibly utilze this backup core on the ps3s that have it available, and ofcourse the ones with the dud core will perform slower. This is pure speculation of course. Maybe someone can shed some more light on what this "backup core" is all about, but its just a theory.

No backup, one SPU is always disabled to increase manufacturing yield. This mean, if defect occur in one of eight SPUs, they disable defective one and still have fully functional CPU for PS3. Cell in PS3 have always 7 working SPUs and developers are coding for those (actually 6, one is reserved for OS). They do same thing for PS4, they disable 2 GCN cores to increase yields and nobody will ever use them

 

[Griffith500]

@novcze One has to wonder how these manufacturing faults occur in the first place, and what sort of spectrum they paint.

 

[nickg07]

I have a slim and it stuttered on game start with the music half a sec into the race. Tried it on ssd same stutter. If I turn BGM off for the race there is no stutter.

 

[novcze]

@novcze One has to wonder how these manufacturing faults occur in the first place, and what sort of spectrum they paint.

I don't follow that part about what sort of spectrum they paint, but you should answer that, it looks like you are master of half informed drivel (no offence, I just got this impression from your answers in this thread)

 

[LazerBlitz101]

I use a Fat 60 but i don't notice any frame problems other than when it is loading the track it sometimes freezes up for a minute or so...

 

[Ramanujan]

Here are the motherboards from a CECHG and the CECHG. Keep in mind BOTH are 40GB fat ps3. Thats why i keep saying its not enough just to say what playstation and hdd size you have. You need to know the model number

These are a slim and a fat mainboard. Not two different fat ones.
The description on the site clearly uses them to show the difference in size between both versions.

http://www.rapidrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=cp-playstation-3-slim-ps3-repair

System Boards Compared

Take a look at the differences between the old board (left) and slim board (right).

 

[xSNAKEx]

Yeah, some people also swear what they observed is magic :-)




GT6 doesn't support deep color, games are rendered in 8-bit RGB (Full Range RGB = ON), also Super-white setting have nothing to do with games.

Haven't actually compared if it makes any difference in GT6, I suspect it doesn't as I didn't notice anything. But in GT5 from memory either that setting or RGB Color range made things looks darker and punchier when enabled, like it has contrast and vibrancy increased. RGB color range has an effect on everything as it changes the look of the XMB.
Can you confirm this compared to GT5?

Yeah, some people also swear what they observed is magic :-)

Like I said I dont care to prove or disprove anything so feel free to take the piss take. What I can tell you is you would need to be an absolute moron to see one console chugging along when viewing a car in a dealership, and another rendering it perfectly smoothly. The dealership is all you need to see there is a difference.

No backup, one SPU is always disabled to increase manufacturing yield. This mean, if defect occur in one of eight SPUs, they disable defective one and still have fully functional CPU for PS3. Cell in PS3 have always 7 working SPUs and developers are coding for those (actually 6, one is reserved for OS). They do same thing for PS4, they disable 2 GCN cores to increase yields and nobody will ever use them

Thats exactly what I said

"they have it there just in case one of the cores tuns out to be a dud during manufacture and they can still use the chip instead of throwing it away"

Anyway, if some of the cores are turn out to be defective on some processors, it also means that in others NONE of them may be defective. I understand they probably run the chip at the lowest common denominator of 7, but it is also possible some of the ps3s with the full 8 operational cores may be made to utilize them later on.

One of the biggest differences between console I have noticed is after you pass the finish line and win the race. The CECH2001a slows down to a chug of about 15-20fps, while the CECH3002B kept a smooth FPS.

Pressing the PS button in game, the XMB also seemed to lag a lot more than in the 2001a than the 3002b. I imagine if there is less processing power available to the XMB will be laggier.

@novcze One has to wonder how these manufacturing faults occur in the first place, and what sort of spectrum they paint.

It means sonys once great standard of manufacture is no more. Their quality control is low and so their product quality is all over the place. Pot luck what you get. I bought a ps3 super slim just for GT6 even though I already had a FAT ps3 and a early slim just so I can run it better but am disappointed to find out it doesn't run it as good as the 3000 series slim. I now wish I bought used 3000 slim instead.

 

[xSNAKEx]

These are a slim and a fat mainboard. Not two different fat ones.
The description on the site clearly uses them to show the difference in size between both versions.

http://www.rapidrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=cp-playstation-3-slim-ps3-repair

Sorry about that. I just used google and didn't really check the link. I can definitely say the CECHG and CECHH are different though.

http://www.semperthree.com/40gb-ps3-cechh.html

The CECHH 40gb PS3 was an internal redesign of the CECHG, using a much smaller circuit board, a different hdd layout and new heat sink. This redesign also resulted in the shift of the rear connection ports from the right side to the left side of the console.

The feature set of the CECHH is identical to the CECHG model and is the second PS3 released with no backwards compatibility. Even though this model was an internal redesign it was actually released at the same time as the CECHG.

So what everything I stated was all correct, just copied the wrong picture in the link from the website.

 

[Griffith500]

I don't follow that part about what sort of spectrum they paint, but you should answer that, it looks like you are master of half informed drivel (no offence, I just got this impression from your answers in this thread)

I mean, what range of "faults" and imperfections end up in the final, saleable product.

Anyway, no thanks to you, I've since learned that traditional binning of CPUs involves things like seeing what voltage is required to hold a given clock speed (I wonder what the physical cause for that variation is). That would typically decide whether the wafer would go to a lower or higher tier part of the same architecture.

With the Cell, there are no tiers. So what it means is that some Cells will be running hotter than others, because they'll need a higher voltage to run properly at the 3.2 GHz speed they all need to be. Heat generated is linearly proportional to frequency (constant) but proportional to the square of voltage (variable according to the manufacturing process).

The Cell was designed to run at 30°C at 3.2 GHz, so its cooler is sized accordingly. If the voltage has to be set higher, that cooler's going to have to work harder (i.e. the chip is going to run hotter) EDIT: the cooling fan speed variation should take care of normal ranges, but we've already learned that the coolers were designed on the knife edge as it is.

The smaller dies have a smaller conduit for heat to travel to the heat sink, so the quality of that conduit needs to be more consistent on a smaller scale (no little bubbles in the thermal paste, for instance).


If you feel I've said something inaccurate, you should speak up and explain yourself, instead of hiding behind a mere "impression".

EDIT: also, the Cell will scale its clock speed according to load to save power, and has built-in temperature sensors (here).

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

On my LCD, setting deep color to auto gives better color reproduction even on XMB, quite noticeable when I view my archive photos ( real life photos ). If when deep color set to auto do not give noticeable difference, then the TV do not support deep color. The same goes for RGB Full Range the TV should have black level adjustment - when I set to full for games, I set my tv black level to full to make use of it, then when I want to view Bluray movies, I set it to Limited on PS3, and Black level Low on TV I have my TV calibrated both for movies and games on separate settings.

Oh, almost forgot, when playing GT6 with RGB on Limited and Deep Color to Off, the color also has subtle change, I usually play with RGB Full and Deep Color Auto.

 

[xSNAKEx]

On my LCD, setting deep color to auto gives better color reproduction even on XMB, quite noticeable when I view my archive photos ( real life photos ). If when deep color set to auto do not give noticeable difference, then the TV do not support deep color. The same goes for RGB Full Range the TV should have black level adjustment - when I set to full for games, I set my tv black level to full to make use of it, then when I want to view Bluray movies, I set it to Limited on PS3, and Black level Low on TV I have my TV calibrated both for movies and games on separate settings.

Oh, almost forgot, when playing GT6 with RGB on Limited and Deep Color to Off, the color also has subtle change, I usually play with RGB Full and Deep Color Auto.

Ah yea that could be it. Im playing GT6 on my computer monitor but I payed gt5 on my TV. Yea I was sure the settings also made a huge in GT5, so novcze was just flat out wrong? He must've read somewhere those settings only affect Blu ray movies and and believed it instead of testing it out.

 

[bodger]

The cores in the cell processor are not cores per se, but SPE units. There are seven, there is no back up, they just disable one. It can't be enabled again, in fact I seem to remember they actually blow it out, if all 8 happen to work anyway. On average manufacturing yields you end up with a faulty SPE, so one is always "disabled", if it isn't faulty already.

Without some actual real comparative test results, I am very skeptical that this is really an issue at all.

Don't be so sure about there being no changes just because the model numbers are close. Yes there can be vast differences. For example someone on the first page said he also has a 40gb PS3 like the first one mentioned and went on to compare the two, his one being just one model newer CECHH vs CECHG literally could be a day apart or even half day in production, but in fact the CECHH model he has is vastly different to the CECHG I tested with.

Here are the motherboards from a CECHG and the CECHG. Keep in mind BOTH are 40GB fat ps3. Thats why i keep saying its not enough just to say what playstation and hdd size you have. You need to know the model number

Here






I dont know what your specific model is like, I only reported what I observed on the models I tested.

I tried various configurations of settings, I guess mostly I ran with the game with deep color on but dynamic range to limted. I always kept sharpen image to off as that seemed to highlight differences most. I only mentioned it as I noticed it seemed to increase FPS in the slower systems.

However regardless of the settings, some consoles were always ahead of others. The CECH3002B for example had no trouble running the game even with both dynamic range to full and deep color options set to on, and it even outperformed the 2001a even with all this off and sharpen on enable.
Having all the options enabled and no sharpen on the 2001a dropped the fps down to as low as what felt like 25fps in some case. I say this based on my perception only. I am not making any factual claims. As a PC gamer very in tune with FPS since about 1996 I can tell the differences pretty easily as I played counter strike competitively on a 100hz monitor and 100fps and the slightest drop would alter the game for me.

On top of this, there can also be manufacturing differences, even between the same models. Keep in mind the cell processor has one core as a "backup". I am not sure what this means but its possible they have it there just in case one of the cores tuns out to be a dud during manufacture and they can still use the chip instead of throwing it away. They can possibly utilze this backup core on the ps3s that have it available, and ofcourse the ones with the dud core will perform slower. This is pure speculation of course. Maybe someone can shed some more light on what this "backup core" is all about, but its just a theory.

There can also be differences in how the ps3 has been kept temperature can affect how the ps3 runs etc. I am not sure if the ps3 downclocks due to temperature, but its easily possible.

Lastly, as I've already stated, some people simply do not notice tearing or drops in FPS. I have seen this first hand. It is quite possible your ps3 is exhibiting this, but you do not notice it.

 

[starknight97]

My 120gb slim has never had any performance issues. Runs gt6 with good frame rate and has no noticeable framerate issues or tearing issues. I recommend keeping it dust free in a cool environment.

And if you have a fat just get rid of it, mine died of over heating (I think) a few years ago and that was in the same conditions and under the same amount of use as my new one, of which has lasted around twice as long so far.

 

[djm99]

Have sent an email to Digital Foundry to see if they will run tests on the models mentioned

 

[xSNAKEx]

My 120gb slim has never had any performance issues. Runs gt6 with good frame rate and has no noticeable framerate issues or tearing issues. I recommend keeping it dust free in a cool environment.

And if you have a fat just get rid of it, mine died of over heating (I think) a few years ago and that was in the same conditions and under the same amount of use as my new one, of which has lasted around twice as long so far.

Thats interesting. Can you tell me your model number, settings and firmware version?

Have sent an email to Digital Foundry to see if they will run tests on the models mentioned

I hope they do. Would be interesting to see. Thought I wonder if they are thorough enough to mention the model number.

 

[xSNAKEx]

I have some updates on this.

The CECHG fat has died during a championship race in gt6. It started to lag a bit in the race then the screen went black 3 beeps were heard and it turned of with a flashing red light. Upon letting it cool down it started up again but this time only lasted about 2 minutes in a race before it turned off again. The 3rd time it died in the GT6 menu only a minute or so in and now has the YLOD. Looks like it needs a reball. Its possible it was on its last legs during testing as before it died it started taking chugging in menus as well. It ran GT5 well a few years ago and only started developing problems in gt6.

I also had some more with time watching the CECH3002B this time looking for slow downs close to the screen whilst it was being played by someone else. As reported the FPS is top notch. It is not perfect but higher than the rest.

If you look very carefully in cockpit view there is very minor tearing noticeable when you drive along at high speed on Light poles, but they only occur on the sides of the screen and only on poles. They are not entire screen tears. There is no big entire Screen sized tears like on the 2001a. However I still could not spot any framerate drop in the dealership and buy car animations unlike the 2001 and even 4001 super slim.

I took a recording of the 3002b of the dealership and gallery to show how smooth it is, but as suspectected you cannot demonstrate this with a camera phone and then uploaded to youtube. It looks laggy in the video when it is not.

The video shows scrolling through the car manufactures and the XMB screen look laggy when clearly both are smooth as silk on any console. So just keep that in mind. I also had worked out a bit so my hands were shaking keeping the camera up.

 

[TheLuigi755]

Well I'm not experiencing that problem, mainly for 2 reasons:
1) I'm running on a CECH-3003B Slimline
2) I've only had it for 1.5 years.

Stay Sweet!

- Taffyta Muttonfudge

 

[TheLuigi755]

Its better of mentioning your model ps3 instead of just the Hdd size the console came with

No tearing, slowdowns, freezing, YLODs on my 320GB CECH-3003B Slimline. I'll tell you that.

 

[TheLuigi755]

What model ps3? cech what?

There have been significant changes even between all fats and between all slims and sometimes between same HDD sizes. There are also regional differences.

for example: CECH-3003B PAL 320GB (my PS3.)

 

[TheLuigi755]

CECH-20xxB Slim 250gb here. Only noticeable drops ive had are when 16 cars on replays.

Same applies to my 3003B, only slowdown is when I have the entire field on screen at once.

 

[KTalloutdrags]

I have the old CECHE and honestly it preforms wonderfully. She has since March 2008 and even with never games like gt6, she still preforms well. No microfreezing or anything.

And a side note... I love how when I slide my finger over the touch sensitive buttons it sounds like a car being started lmao. And if it's on sleep I can literally hear an idle. But like I said, it preforms really well with gt6.

 

[BWX]

Well I have a CECH 2001a 120GB slim with a WD Black WD5000BEKT 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s HD (165GB free) and it runs GT6 absolutely fine, so OP's theory is completely disproved since he also only tested one of that type of PS3. I also have the PSN downloaded version of GT6, and that also might affect results compared to disc version.

If Someone wanted to to test 10 or so of each console revision with exact same HD and exact same conditions (heat, dust, settings), you might be able to come to some conclusion about performance differences between revisions, but still that is a tiny sample. I bet there would be less than 1% difference if any in actual FPS, the processors are functionally identical. The HD might come into play where "chugging" or "stuttering" is concerned only while the textures are being loaded, but not outright frame-rate obviously.

The only real difference would be how loud the PS3 is, and how much power it is sucking from the wall outlet, that is really the only type of "performance" advantage newer revisions will have.

Anything on-screen GFX performance issues are not due to the die size, as the processors are basically identical as far as architecture that would have any thing to do with gfx performance. Heat, power consumption, and noise will be different.


I know what screen tearing and frame drops look like too.. I built a PC that has 2x SLI GTX 670 factory OC gfx cards.. (Gigabyte Windforce) It is a freaking beast compared to even a PS4.. Way more GFX "power". The only thing that proves, is that I care about performance in video games, and obviously know what a poor performing video game looks like. Gt6 runs great on my so-called "bad" 65nm GPU, 45nm CPU, PS3.


edit- Deep color off since my 2007 Sharp Aquos doesn't make use of that setting, not that I think that makes a difference.
Game settings set to default (smoothing off, etc).

 

[bodger]

I have some updates on this.

The CECHG fat has died during a championship race in gt6. It started to lag a bit in the race then the screen went black 3 beeps were heard and it turned of with a flashing red light. Upon letting it cool down it started up again but this time only lasted about 2 minutes in a race before it turned off again. The 3rd time it died in the GT6 menu only a minute or so in and now has the YLOD. Looks like it needs a reball. Its possible it was on its last legs during testing as before it died it started taking chugging in menus as well. It ran GT5 well a few years ago and only started developing problems in gt6.

I also had some more with time watching the CECH3002B this time looking for slow downs close to the screen whilst it was being played by someone else. As reported the FPS is top notch. It is not perfect but higher than the rest.

If you look very carefully in cockpit view there is very minor tearing noticeable when you drive along at high speed on Light poles, but they only occur on the sides of the screen and only on poles. They are not entire screen tears. There is no big entire Screen sized tears like on the 2001a. However I still could not spot any framerate drop in the dealership and buy car animations unlike the 2001 and even 4001 super slim.

I took a recording of the 3002b of the dealership and gallery to show how smooth it is, but as suspectected you cannot demonstrate this with a camera phone and then uploaded to youtube. It looks laggy in the video when it is not.

The video shows scrolling through the car manufactures and the XMB screen look laggy when clearly both are smooth as silk on any console. So just keep that in mind. I also had worked out a bit so my hands were shaking keeping the camera up.

I have launch month fat and everything you demonstrate here is smooth. No issues at all.

A video showing only one of the consoles, and an anecdotal account of a broken console, with no comparison to anything else isn't really proving anything.

 

[GregOr1971]

Well , wouldn't agree on 120 Slim (cannot tell model at the moment but it is with wifi/hd lights). Got disc ann. ed. No troubles with game freezing,reseting etc... All works fine without hicoups or framerate drops in racing (any wiew) , but there are few quick instances of framedrops in replay mode only on Bathurst and some other tracks . I've noticed that changing video from default 2 sharpen improves framerate a little .

Did you test fresh installs or fully installed GT6? Game was innitialy slower in loading times etc... but after installing all cars on hd (you do that by going into dealership and watch every car ) It got much faster loading times (not that they were slow before,but now it is a breeze). Game heavily streams from bR (tracks,music,cars at once) , so many people might experience problems because of br getting worn and getting stuck trying to load parts of tracks ,cars, sounds ... If so , It helps if you delete your racing/replay playlist (setting sound to 0 doesn't disable music streaming ).

 

[Inferno251]

Same applies to my 3003B, only slowdown is when I have the entire field on screen at once.

Same with my 320GB Slim

 

[xSNAKEx]

OK guys definite no brainer differences between the 320gb slim 3002b and the 4001a super slim under these conditions.


Some of you may have noticed that when you are in game and press the PS button the XMB sometimes is jerky. I thought this was normal but in the 3002B it was smooth.

When you do a race in a championship and suspend it, gt6 give you a message to quit the game. Scrolling left and right in the XMB on the 3002B was smooth as it is when you are out of the game. The XMB on the 4001a was jerky under the same conditions. Its very noticeable even a kid should be able to notice it. No need for in depth analyses there.

Im not sure whats going on but id love for someone to explain that instead of just saying they all perform the same.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I always quit game via XMB quite game option, it's smooth and responsive on mine ( Slim 250xx )