GT6 Sales Discussion

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eran0004

You can't really tell from that article. This is all it says:

According to Chart-Track Gran Turismo 6 sold only around a fifth of the first week total for 2010’s Gran Turismo 5, which holds the record as the fastest selling game in the series.

No volumes are mentioned, only that it was 1/5th of the record-holder GT5. According to their methodology their statistics are retailer based, so do they count digital copies sold on the PS Store?
 
366
Trinidad and Tobago
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killah_smoke23
No, it's not. Think about all the things that are involved in getting a game to the consumer and all the people that want a slice, not to mention the very early price drop.

There's no way Polyphony/Sony make $200 million gross on that game.

Even if most of its sales came from the price drop to 40$ - $30 - 20$ - $15
You have to Factor in the $60 Original price. Even if they sold only 500,000 copies of the original $60 that's already 30Million off the bat. Keep in mind 500,000 is not alot in sales numbers. So if you factor in the rest of price drops and all that eventually leads to 4.71Mill, chances are they made over 200Mill.

But that doesn't mean it was a profit. Remember Marketing cost alot more that development. and PD/sony did ALOT to market GT6. It was everywhere. So the game might have cost 40-60Mill to dev but marketing a AAA is usually in the hundreds of Mills (not alot of hundreds tho, for the most maybe 250 - 350Mill). Not to mention on paper Sony net worth is in the billions but they don't have that kind of money laying around. You have to factor in paying off private investors and stockholders.
 

cutmeamango

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There's two other things worth noting, though. One, this number isn't representative of the number of players, it's simply units shipped to retailers. Places like EB/GameStop could have a sizable stock that doesn't really move. Or they could be out. We're not sure.

Secondly, much as we don't know the targets Sony and PD were aiming for, it's the same case for the competition. That GT sells massively more than other racing games will always be impressive, but I'd be very surprised if any of the other games were aiming for those levels. Their break evens are likely lower.

Channel stuffing isn't a thing two years in. But even then, I don't think those are "shipped to retailer" numbers, that is not common practice with software numbers.

And yes, crew size and development time is everything. GT5 that was "the most expensive", cost 60mi in 5 years.

SMS had 4 years or so (2011 crowdfund) of development and PCars had an initial (estimated by them) ROI start at less than a million sales, but then with Namco publishing that number probably shot up a bit. People started seeing profits with the latest payment.
Assetto Corsa sold less than 300k at below full price (although DLC packs probably help even that up), and it's still going since Kunos is pretty small.
Turn 10 should be around 100 (even though they hire lots of contractors), so unless they have much higher pay rates, I'm sure ~3mi sales is more than enough to turn profit.

but marketing a AAA is usually in thehundreds of Mills (not alot of hundreds tho, for the most maybe 250 - 350Mill)

Those numbers are nowhere near top quartile Hollywood movies...

62 pages discussing sales on a game.

Impressive.

It's a trip reading it from the start, sales really do mess people up worse than reviews.
 
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21,361
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
You have to Factor in the $60 Original price. Even if they sold only 500,000 copies of the original $60 that's already 30Million off the bat.

Yeah, no. PD/Sony do not gain 100% of the $60 from a sale. Not even close.
 
366
Trinidad and Tobago
Trinidad and Tobago
killah_smoke23
Yeah, no. PD/Sony do not gain 100% of the $60 from a sale. Not even close.
No. 100% of $60 from sales would be 280+Mills. They made significantly less than that. But its def over 200Mill.
Btw I never said the sales made up for the low numbers made from the original $60. In any company that almost never happens. But it still brings in alot of numbers.

Btw yall acting like 200Mill is a whopping number in the games industry. That's only a slightly large drop in the pool of other assets needed to bring a game to gold status.
 
12,300
Australia
Adelaide
GTP_Imari
But its def over 200Mill.

$200 million divided by 4.71 million copies is an average of $42.46 on every single copy, after they've paid the retailers their cut.

If you think that's a reasonable estimate, then more power to you.

Me, I think if they managed to retail every single copy for $60+, then they might reach that sort of number, if they were lucky.

Btw yall acting like 200Mill is a whopping number in the games industry.

No, I simply question your ability to do math.
 
366
Trinidad and Tobago
Trinidad and Tobago
killah_smoke23
$200 million divided by 4.71 million copies is an average of $42.46 on every single copy, after they've paid the retailers their cut.

If you think that's a reasonable estimate, then more power to you.

Me, I think if they managed to retail every single copy for $60+, then they might reach that sort of number, if they were lucky.



No, I simply question your ability to do math.
Well its definitely not accurate isn't it. I'm not here going for accuracy and my bills definitely aren't being payed debating this so have fun using your math skills averaging a another man's success.
 
366
Trinidad and Tobago
Trinidad and Tobago
killah_smoke23
I'll take that as a "yeah, you know what, I was wrong. There's no way that they made $200 million like I said they definitely did. Sorry".
Orrrr maybe when I thought about it for sec, whether they made 200Mill or 5$Mill we're still talking about someone else making money...which makes 0 sense at all. So why would I be sorry??
 
12,300
Australia
Adelaide
GTP_Imari
Orrrr maybe when I thought about it for sec, whether they made 200Mill or 5$Mill we're still talking about someone else making money...which makes 0 sense at all. So why would I be sorry??

I assumed because you were a big enough man (or woman) to admit fault when you were wrong.

I see that now I was wrong. Sorry.
 
366
Trinidad and Tobago
Trinidad and Tobago
killah_smoke23
I assumed because you were a big enough man (or woman) to admit fault when you were wrong.

I see that now I was wrong. Sorry.
Admit fault for something as petty as debating someones money??? I'm sorry but your opinions does not put food on my table or pay for my internet.
I assumed you were grown enough to move on with more important things to do with your life.
 

Johnnypenso

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Johnnypenso
Admit fault for something as petty as debating someones money??? I'm sorry but your opinions does not put food on my table or pay for my internet.
I assumed you were grown enough to move on with more important things to do with your life.
You should probably take your own advice.
 
14,026
United States
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lImaRobotl
Already did can't you tell?? we're wayyy off topic :)
The only thing that I can tell is that you make claims and then backtrack when someone corrects you. For something that isn't paying your bills, you seem to keep posting on it a lot. Seems to be that was just a facade to try to distract from the point you failed to make.

Does anyone know what percentage of each sale actually goes to PD? Or any game maker in general, really?
 

rono_thomas

Adrenaline Racing Community.
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Cant tell from the vibe in the posts but does everyone here think that PD made a net gain with GT6?
 
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Cant tell from the vibe in the posts but does everyone here think that PD made a net gain with GT6?

We don't have anywhere near enough information to determine that. We would need to know the budget of the title and the wholesale price of each copy sold. Only Sony has those figures. You would have to imagine though with nearly 5 million sold and the fact it was mostly built off GT5 that they probably made a profit.
 
467
England
England

Interesting... GT: PSP shifted 440k units in that time frame between updates. Now who asked the question of it's relevance in a sales discussion?...

I know @Johnnypenso was there, was it @Tornado ?


Tornado
How many sales do you realistically think a six year old title on a discontinued platform are contributing to 2012-2015 series sales totals just because it is still available digitally on a newer, failed platform?

440k

Johnnypenso
How do PSP sales, from a game over 6 years old, have any significant effect whatsoever in the calculation of copies of GT6 sold?

440k

Anyway, I'd say my point is proven and would you now agree it was a mistake to leave it out of your 'logical' estimations ?
 
3,264
United States
Salt Lake City,
I thought I read somewhere here saying GT5 'paid' for GT6? I donno where or what thread.

It really doesn't matter much what we all think. With 4.7 million sales, even if they only made (profit) an average of $15 per sale it'd be $70 million. If it's less than that and they made just $10 average per unit, $47 million. GT5 had a very big number. Of course that wasn't all at full retail, but here's what I think (that's not saying I'm factual)- it made enough to secure/cover the budget of a sequel. GT6 had less success, but the series overall has been huge. Possibly, most importantly, Sony is behind PD. They may not pay for it's development or secure their future, but they could lend a helping hand, if need be.

Thats all that matters to me, personally. That the series is safe even if the latest installment wasn't as good of a seller.
 
21,361
United Kingdom
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Really the interesting point for us is not whether they made money but what Sony/PD attributed the lower than average sales for the series to. Fans have covered their believed reasons, and many of them are of course true to some degree or another, but Sony will obviously look deeper into it and have a lot more data to work with. Will they attribute it 100% solely to the release on PS3 and it's timing, will they just put it down to the general down shift in sales of games? Or will they look at the game itself and decide that was a large factor?

We should find out when GTS launches and we see just how different (or not) it is. Has me very curious for sure.
 

Terronium-12

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Read my initial post again.

Then decide who's arguing.

You are.

You decided to venture into a thread for no reason other than derailing it because according to you this topic isn't worth discussing as all of the information isn't on the table. Which while having a ring of truth it is not your decision to make or even suggest.

So now it's my turn: if you have nothing of value to contribute, and you don't, stay out of this thread and go elsewhere.

It's not a suggestion either.
 

Johnnypenso

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Johnnypenso
I thought I read somewhere here saying GT5 'paid' for GT6? I donno where or what thread.

It really doesn't matter much what we all think. With 4.7 million sales, even if they only made (profit) an average of $15 per sale it'd be $70 million. If it's less than that and they made just $10 average per unit, $47 million. GT5 had a very big number. Of course that wasn't all at full retail, but here's what I think (that's not saying I'm factual)- it made enough to secure/cover the budget of a sequel. GT6 had less success, but the series overall has been huge. Possibly, most importantly, Sony is behind PD. They may not pay for it's development or secure their future, but they could lend a helping hand, if need be.

Thats all that matters to me, personally. That the series is safe even if the latest installment wasn't as good of a seller.
We have no idea at all on average unit price, cost of developing GT6, expenses for PD/Sony etc. They may have lost money, made money or broke even. All we know is they are moving forward with the series so we can safely conclude that the sales of GT6 gave them no reason to shut the series down, whatever that means.
 
3,264
United States
Salt Lake City,
We have no idea at all on average unit price, cost of developing GT6, expenses for PD/Sony etc. They may have lost money, made money or broke even. All we know is they are moving forward with the series so we can safely conclude that the sales of GT6 gave them no reason to shut the series down, whatever that means.
I'd be very surprised if GT6 lost money. It wasn't made entirely from scratch so GT5's assets could have been used. I'm sure that helped in some areas related to costs. It'd be nice to know the cost of making GT6. Thatd go a long way in figuring out what the break even amount would be.
 
536
United States
United States
We have no idea at all on average unit price, cost of developing GT6, expenses for PD/Sony etc. They may have lost money, made money or broke even. All we know is they are moving forward with the series so we can safely conclude that the sales of GT6 gave them no reason to shut the series down, whatever that means.

Indeed. None of us work for PDI/Sony and with that only speculation is left in regards to anything related to profit/loss.

Indeed, twice. With GT Sport in the works, and the sales of GT6 no longer "hidden", it really is safe to say that the franchise is safe for now and could even be expanding to new territory.
 
We have no idea at all on average unit price, cost of developing GT6, expenses for PD/Sony etc. They may have lost money, made money or broke even. All we know is they are moving forward with the series so we can safely conclude that the sales of GT6 gave them no reason to shut the series down, whatever that means.

Really the interesting point for us is not whether they made money but what Sony/PD attributed the lower than average sales for the series to. Fans have covered their believed reasons, and many of them are of course true to some degree or another, but Sony will obviously look deeper into it and have a lot more data to work with. Will they attribute it 100% solely to the release on PS3 and it's timing, will they just put it down to the general down shift in sales of games? Or will they look at the game itself and decide that was a large factor?

We should find out when GTS launches and we see just how different (or not) it is. Has me very curious for sure.

We can conclude that GT6 was the most sold racing game since 2013 WW. Europe as expected has the most numbers and the games are usually more expensive in that part of the world. Racing games are not most popular genre. I think GT will still have good numbers in future but anything over 2million I think is a pretty good and 3+ is great for racing games.
 
21,361
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
We can conclude that GT6 was the most sold racing game since 2013 WW. Europe as expected has the most numbers and the games are usually more expensive in that part of the world. Racing games are not most popular genre. I think GT will still have good numbers in future but anything over 2million I think is a pretty good and 3+ is great for racing games.

Why did you quote me? What you posted has nothing to do with what I said.
 

mister dog

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cutmeamango

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Well they all sold above 1 million. Halo for exemple had sold above 1 million WW in its first month.
I think the best that can be inferred is that at least one game didn't sell above 1.5mi, since they'd probably go with the highest number for the lowest denominator.

Forza 6 first month sales blurbs from leaks and trackers were putting it below FH2 sales (sold ~325k in NA first 3 months, LTD sales "not good" according to ZhugeEX, a data leaker/insider; but is at 2mi at leaderboards) selling less than 250k with bundles between NA (195k) and UK (<60k, X1 biggest market in Europe), but F6 was bundled during black friday/holidays at least in the NA and EU. For comparison: F5 sold on US first two months 457k (including bundles) and passed 1mi < x =< 1.3mi in its first month. Driveclub announced 2mi sales 9 months after launch.

Going by leaderboard numbers it's ceiling is around 1.7X million players.

So well, it is at least between 1 < X =< 1.7X units in four months.
It could probably be the lowest main Forza, but it's not doing so bad.

Biggest first party franchise topping both FM and GT: Mario Kart :lol:
The article mentions a worrying trend, but i think this is just down to decent competition for 'the established', like Driveclub and PCARS. So that's a good thing as T10 and PD will have to make an effort now, and not rely on repackaging things with the right title on the box.

PCars and Forza are probably seeing themselves in their mirrors, PCars investors return (and lack of PR) doesn't seem to place it above 2mi. PCars sold ~150k PC, ~250k X1, and ~600k, in its first full month. 7 months later PC is at 330k after being heavily discounted (AC is at ~300k), and it basically didn't chart in Europe the whole year (passed 100k PS4 in Germany in October, Sony's now largest market in EU).

And there's of course Shuhei Yoshida's statement about the "driving genre being hard" at this moment.
Don't think it's decent competition driving everyone down.