GT7 and SimHub Tactile discussion

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Im not feeling any wheel slip or lock on my Buttkicker pro in GT7. Anyone got good settings? Crurrently I have the mode set to left/Right Base effect frequency at 40 and High effect frequency at 50 for wheelp slip at 40z at 85%. Never mind I got it working!
 
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Hi all - anyone live sharing any interesting setups with the BK Pro? I found a few of Mr. Latte's initial shares in the thread and implemented but would love to try out more. Happy to post mine as well if there is interest / get feedback.
 
Hi all - anyone live sharing any interesting setups with the BK Pro? I found a few of Mr. Latte's initial shares in the thread and implemented but would love to try out more. Happy to post mine as well if there is interest / get feedback.
I suspect unless somebody has the same shakers and amps as you and mounted in the same position running on the same rig and seat... you’re not going to experience what they’ve dialled in.

I lost all my settings awhile back and had to redo it all. That was a blessing in disguise since I was now more familiar with SimHub and what each effect did and how it felt or how I felt it on my particular rig.

So I tried setting it all up again from scratch and it turned out better than before.

In the process I found the way SimHub handles saving settings of the profile and the amps is a bit clumsy unfortunately, but I can’t complain because it’s the only thing out there that lets us do this for GT7 as far as I know.
 
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I suspect unless somebody has the same shakers and amps as you and mounted in the same position running on the same rig and seat... you’re not going to experience what they’ve dialled in.

I lost all my settings awhile back and had to redo it all. That was a blessing in disguise since I was now more familiar with SimHub and what each effect did and how it felt or how I felt it on my particular rig.

So I tried setting it all up again from scratch and it turned out better than before.

In the process I found the way SimHub handles saving settings of the profile and the amps is a bit clumsy unfortunately, but I can’t complain because it’s the only thing out there that lets us do this for GT7 as far as I know.
Totally agree - I should clarify and mention I was looking more for "inspiration". I've started to get better with simhub but not great at layering, one of Mr. Latte's specialties. Feels like I spend as much time fiddling with settings as I do playing now ha!
 
Totally agree - I should clarify and mention I was looking more for "inspiration". I've started to get better with simhub but not great at layering, one of Mr. Latte's specialties. Feels like I spend as much time fiddling with settings as I do playing now ha!
Choose one effect to be your main. Set it how you want it. Build everything around that. Unless you have a bunch of shakers you’ll have to compromise on some things. You could try blending you main effect with a secondary effect. Try and make it so they feel distinctly different. So different Hz and strengths. Then pick another secondary effect and do the same thing, but then check that against the previous secondary.


I ended up with 8 pucks on my rig, two in the seat, three against my back, two under my pedal board and one attached to the seat frame near the front. It all blends pretty good while still feeling different enough that I can distinguish road noise from gear shift from curbs etc.

For the frequencies or Hz, try and think about things that are only going to happen temporarily, like a gear shift or a curb/road impact, it’s not going to happen at the same time usually, so they can share a closer frequency.

I can’t remember the names of them all, there’s one that will vibrate during a corner, speed cornering effect? For me, that and engine vibration or road noise, they need to be different frequencies for obvious reasons. They’ll be going at the same time. I put my speed cornering effect in my seat, and kept my engine vibration on my pedal board and some on the seat frame.




Yeah fiddling is unfortunately part of setting it up. I realized early on, just getting somebody’s settings wasn’t going to work because I didn’t follow any particular build.

I think Mr Latte is onto something if he could manage to find a way to build a rig with all the tactile feedback at a reasonable price and then sell it, he could also sell SimHub settings. Roland did that with there drum kits, Actually it wasnt Roland, it was another company that spent time tuning the stock kits to sound better and then selling those setting files to load into your kit. I thought it was a bit of a gimmick.. at first but then I realized, well you’re paying somebody that took the time to get it jussstt right. So kudos to that company for making a business out of selling nothing but drum kit settings for an electronic drum kit haha

It’s only going to work if you can be the one stop shop. And honestly there is something there because when I was looking into it all, my thought was, isn’t there just a rig I can buy that comes with everything and I just set it up. Most of it is all DIY. I think you’d have to keep the rig setup at around $1000 with the shakers and amps to make a business of it.
 
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Choose one effect to be your main. Set it how you want it. Build everything around that. Unless you have a bunch of shakers you’ll have to compromise on some things. You could try blending you main effect with a secondary effect. Try and make it so they feel distinctly different. So different Hz and strengths. Then pick another secondary effect and do the same thing, but then check that against the previous secondary.


I ended up with 8 pucks on my rig, two in the seat, three against my back, two under my pedal board and one attached to the seat frame near the front. It all blends pretty good while still feeling different enough that I can distinguish road noise from gear shift from curbs etc.

For the frequencies or Hz, try and think about things that are only going to happen temporarily, like a gear shift or a curb/road impact, it’s not going to happen at the same time usually, so they can share a closer frequency.

I can’t remember the names of them all, there’s one that will vibrate during a corner, speed cornering effect? For me, that and engine vibration or road noise, they need to be different frequencies for obvious reasons. They’ll be going at the same time. I put my speed cornering effect in my seat, and kept my engine vibration on my pedal board and some on the seat frame.




Yeah fiddling is unfortunately part of setting it up. I realized early on, just getting somebody’s settings wasn’t going to work because I didn’t follow any particular build.

I think Mr Latte is onto something if he could manage to find a way to build a rig with all the tactile feedback at a reasonable price and then sell it, he could also sell SimHub settings. Roland did that with there drum kits, Actually it wasnt Roland, it was another company that spent time tuning the stock kits to sound better and then selling those setting files to load into your kit. I thought it was a bit of a gimmick.. at first but then I realized, well you’re paying somebody that took the time to get it jussstt right. So kudos to that company for making a business out of selling nothing but drum kit settings for an electronic drum kit haha

It’s only going to work if you can be the one stop shop. And honestly there is something there because when I was looking into it all, my thought was, isn’t there just a rig I can buy that comes with everything and I just set it up. Most of it is all DIY. I think you’d have to keep the rig setup at around $1000 with the shakers and amps to make a business of it.
All very helpful - thank you. Funny, how this turned from me having nothing earlier in the year to now using PSVR, Logitech G Pro, BK Pro and now upgrading rig to an ASR6.

So far I am really liking my shifter and road feel but road impacts feel a bit one dimensional. Also debating how much effort to put in now vs. when I have the new rig setup.
 
All very helpful - thank you. Funny, how this turned from me having nothing earlier in the year to now using PSVR, Logitech G Pro, BK Pro and now upgrading rig to an ASR6.

So far I am really liking my shifter and road feel but road impacts feel a bit one dimensional. Also debating how much effort to put in now vs. when I have the new rig setup.
How’s the VR, I’m worried about the picture quality, I can’t seem to rent one from where I’m at. I’d like to at least try it out first.


Yeah some of the effects I find a bit bland. Some of it’s the game too, drive down a straight, they just through some road impacts in there for the heck of it, seems random lol. PC2 does the same thing.


I agree, building and setting up a rig, and racing... it almost becomes a little hobby. Which is good to have.
 
How’s the VR, I’m worried about the picture quality, I can’t seem to rent one from where I’m at. I’d like to at least try it out first.


Yeah some of the effects I find a bit bland. Some of it’s the game too, drive down a straight, they just through some road impacts in there for the heck of it, seems random lol. PC2 does the same thing.


I agree, building and setting up a rig, and racing... it almost becomes a little hobby. Which is good to have.
Good point on the game, sometimes things do come out of nowhere and probably some programming.

I think the PSVR2 is great. Picture quality is not clear as a 4k tv / monitor but I do not have any issues with it. However, I think it is well worth it and really elevates GT7 to something pretty special.
 
Totally agree - I should clarify and mention I was looking more for "inspiration". I've started to get better with simhub but not great at layering, one of Mr. Latte's specialties. Feels like I spend as much time fiddling with settings as I do playing now ha!
Sent you a PM and invite to what was the private chat/testing for the early work done with some effects.
Its only a taster of what the potential is but most of those effects were created to work well with budget hardware that many of the people here owned.

It might help some...

I plan at some point in early 2024 to start a thread over at RD Forums that will just focus on my own new rig build, the ideas I have and experiments I try. Kinda in the form of a blog if that interests you.
 
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I have been playing with some of the settings you shares on the early pages of this thread. I like them a lot, and would also be interested in seeing some of the newer stuff you have been playing with.
The effects that were created were done over quite a short period of time (early 2023)
It was mainly with a lack of feedback and/or users in the group, not discussing or sharing their opinions that I stopped progressing with trying to improve or develop them further. Family life matters needed my time and I then started to concentrate more on my own rig build again with a new build for 2024.
 
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Hi Mr Latte. Have just finished building my Playseat Challenge with BST-1's attached. Would love access to private chat/testing to help with "tuning" the setup. Thx.
 
Hi Mr Latte. Have just finished building my Playseat Challenge with BST-1's attached. Would love access to private chat/testing to help with "tuning" the setup. Thx.
mslate no.49
thudb no.50
 
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Can anyone recommend an amp for 6 exciters or is the basic rule to run 2? I am located in the USA so some of the options I’ve seen seem a bit price excess ($300+) to run 6 exciters
 
Can anyone recommend an amp for 6 exciters or is the basic rule to run 2? I am located in the USA so some of the options I’ve seen seem a bit price excess ($300+) to run 6 exciters
I don’t know about exciters but the TT25-8‘s I got were pretty cheap. I can’t remember the exact prices but right now they’re 4 for $70. The amps seem to have gone up (I think) they’re like $50-$60 an amp now. I could have swore I paid a fair amount less than that. But if you run just 4, then you’re at like $$170, I don’t think that’s too bad really. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen those nobsounds go on sale cheaper. There’s also some other amp doku or something that’s 4 channel and I think I saw it one time for like $80.

I’ve got 8 in total now. Again, I went a bit out of the box working with what I had but IMO it turned out great. I snuck the pucks in behind the foam of my seat. I don’t think the pucks would reliably work if you mounted further away from you on the frame of a rig. I can feel the vibrations in my seat from my wheel and from the two pucks under my pedal board but not if the ones in the seat are going, and if I wanted the vibrations from the ones at my feet in the seat, I’d be wanting to crank them louder.

Im running overall at 50% volume and the amps at about 50-60% volume but nothing in SimHub is at 100%, maybe one setting and I forget which one. It seems like more than enough. I could turn them up but then they become more noticeable and distracting. I like to set them to blend with my wheel. I keep the wheel just a hair stronger than the pucks or in other words I bring up the puck strengths just below the wheel. I like that balance. The wheel FFB is more accurate and faster than the pucks and SimHub will ever be.

So far everyone that’s tried my rig likes it. Or I think they do. I have to pretty much shut them down to get them to leave haha
 
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Can anyone recommend an amp for 6 exciters or is the basic rule to run 2? I am located in the USA so some of the options I’ve seen seem a bit price excess ($300+) to run 6 exciters
I would advise to buy some units that are better than the entry level TT25 while these are popular they are dead cheap and because of that they are more restricted in the frequency range they can output.

An exciter with improved wattage upto 40w (not limited to only 20w) is recommended as this also helps better feel lower frequencies that are harder for units to generate. Do take into consideration that exciters compared to "budget transducers" can also work with full range audio. So they can be used for generating more audible harmonic tones in effects.

Additionally they can also, if desired be used as speakers, they will convert what they are attached to (eg a seat) into a speaker/tactile device. So in general they will deliver tactile sensations with increased audible frequencies and this also makes them better for "game audio" based tactile in a much improved way to a unit like TT25.

* Do take note that an exciter is not designed to be leant against, it needs freedom to move. In this scenario, like for a seat cushion type install the TT25 actually IS suitable for that with its enclosed casing.

One of the most popular amp options that is affordable is the Douk Audio M4 offering upto 4x50w
It will power 4x 4ohm units fine and many users have this. Shop around for offers and the brand also uses the Nobsound naming.

So consider buying perhaps an amp with 4 to start and to see how you like what it offers or if your committed then yes lots of people use two amps for powering 8 units. This is the exciter I had recommended and preferred to other options I tested.


Intriguingly, recently some new exciter products have become available but I have yet to see any reviews about them. (Ive ordered but not yet received) and brought them to the attention of people here.
 
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I would advise to buy some units that are better than the entry level TT25 while these are popular they are dead cheap and because of that they are more restricted in the frequency range they can output.

An exciter with improved wattage upto 40w (not limited to only 20w) is recommended as this also helps better feel lower frequencies that are harder for units to generate. Do take into consideration that exciters compared to "budget transducers" can also work with full range audio. So they can be used for generating more audible harmonic tones in effects.

Additionally they can also, if desired be used as speakers, they will convert what they are attached to (eg a seat) into a speaker/tactile device. So in general they will deliver tactile sensations with increased audible frequencies and this also makes them better for "game audio" based tactile in a much improved way to a unit like TT25.

* Do take note that an exciter is not designed to be leant against, it needs freedom to move. In this scenario, like for a seat cushion type install the TT25 actually IS suitable for that with its enclosed casing.

One of the most popular amp options that is affordable is the Douk Audio M4 offering upto 4x50w
It will power 4x 4ohm units fine and many users have this. Shop around for offers and the brand also uses the Nobsound naming.

So consider buying perhaps an amp with 4 to start and to see how you like what it offers or if your committed then yes lots of people use two amps for powering 8 units. This is the exciter I had recommended and preferred to other options I tested.


Intriguingly, recently some new exciter products have become available but I have yet to see any reviews about them. (Ive ordered but not yet received) and brought them to the attention of people here.
Do you have links to stuff needed for a four corner setup using that Douk M4 and four shakers? Doesn’t the Douk M4 need a sound card? I’m considering building another rig to go beside my current one to race with friends in person.
 
Do you have links to stuff needed for a four corner setup using that Douk M4 and four shakers? Doesn’t the Douk M4 need a sound card? I’m considering building another rig to go beside my current one to race with friends in person.
My advice, well for best results in general for a variation of effects is not to go with 4 corners at all.

With that you will not feel 4 independent sensations from each wheel/suspension or position.
While it is often misperceived to offer that, this is different to how it really is experienced as the tactile will flow freely over any connected structure to the one the transducer is installed to.

Vibrations from corners will mix and flow through the whole rig, so most do not get proper or accurate directional sensations with such. For example, having an effect that is supposed to be active in the front left wheel, could also be felt in your seats right side. So you lose in a sense that positional placement. Therefore, ask yourself what is the point of using positional effects if that effects primary activity is not felt in the appropriate position/location/body region?

As a point to note, any youtuber telling you the vibrations in a real car transverse over the whole car, are correct in some respect but its a bad example as they are missing the point. So let me explain.....

Your sim rig is not a real car, this is not real life, this is simulation and immersion, so the key is to apply things in a way that increases both of those aspects.

So based on how the simulation and Simhub operate in conjunction with how tactile can be applied and used is VERY relevant.

Our main goal is to increase how well the effects can be felt and we only feel the effects via our body contact regions. So tactile energy flowing over different parts of a rig frame are wasted. It is best to focus on how to deliver more efficiently the tactile that is being generated by the effects. This is accomplished more with direct mounting and isolation which is well proven within the community. Of course, having different levels of performance in hardware, as in how capable they are at delivering specific frequencies is also an important aspect as to what a user can experience from effects generated.

Those wanting to believe that somehow 4 corners install on a rig represents a real car, they clearly have not compared or tested different options fully or appropriately looked into how Simhub can be best utilised.

4x small units in corners. Well you may as well apply all effects in MONO but with a much bigger more powerful transducer unit to the seat, if you believe in that "flow over the rig like a real car" approach. The larger unit will create much better response in output with lower frequencies and with these as they have more bandwidth/energy they travel further and will be felt in other regions of the cockpit anyways.

Its just that, the way some "tubers" describe things, grinds my gears... No offense to any of them but most sim channels do not have very much experience with experimenting with tactile other having items shipped to them to review. Or often they are copying some other video they seen do similar.

Control & Body Regions
What will give you better immersion and many people found with alu profile based rigs, is to apply tactile to seat/pedals and to isolate both those as individual platforms. So in this scenario we send to the seat/pedals the actual appropriate effects that should be felt within them. Any effects we want in both regions, then this is done in Simhub by how we map out the output of the effects.

We can with this as an approach (PC Sims) achieve much better control in output for individual front/rear sensations (oversteer/understeer) or feeling rear wheelspin only in the seat and wheelspin of front wheels primarily in the pedals as examples.
The seat is the best region to feel stereo sensations, be this kerbs, lateral G but it can of course be combined with multiple units like exciters in a seat with some form of tactile units attributed for pedals. So in this case a user can feel more highlighted sensation in both body regions (feet/torso) which you will not achieve in any way similar with a 4 corner approach.

Multi exciters on seats as highlighted give you much more control over stereo positional effects and these could be combined with exciters on pedals. Having close proximity units like exciters directly on seat/pedals gives again more direct control over what you feel in a specific body region. This can be important if seeking more advanced tactile or wanting to better feel more effects active together.

Trying to get stereo effects to work properly in close proximity with something like pedals is not so simple. As again the vibration to a unit on the left will easily be felt on the right side of the pedal plate or foot rest.
 
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My advice, well for best results in general for a variation of effects is not to go with 4 corners at all.

With that you will not feel 4 independent sensations from each wheel/suspension or position.
While it is often misperceived to offer that, this is different to how it really is experienced as the tactile will flow freely over any connected structure to the one the transducer is installed to.

Vibrations from corners will mix and flow through the whole rig, so most do not get proper or accurate directional sensations with such. For example, having an effect that is supposed to be active in the front left wheel, could also be felt in your seats right side. So you lose in a sense that positional placement. Therefore, ask yourself what is the point of using positional effects if that effects primary activity is not felt in the appropriate position/location/body region?

As a point to note, any youtuber telling you the vibrations in a real car transverse over the whole car, are correct in some respect but its a bad example as they are missing the point. So let me explain.....

Your sim rig is not a real car, this is not real life, this is simulation and immersion, so the key is to apply things in a way that increases both of those aspects.

So based on how the simulation and Simhub operate in conjunction with how tactile can be applied and used is VERY relevant.

Our main goal is to increase how well the effects can be felt and we only feel the effects via our body contact regions. So tactile energy flowing over different parts of a rig frame are wasted. It is best to focus on how to deliver more efficiently the tactile that is being generated by the effects. This is accomplished more with direct mounting and isolation which is well proven within the community. Of course, having different levels of performance in hardware, as in how capable they are at delivering specific frequencies is also an important aspect as to what a user can experience from effects generated.

Those wanting to believe that somehow 4 corners install on a rig represents a real car, they clearly have not compared or tested different options fully or appropriately looked into how Simhub can be best utilised.

4x small units in corners. Well you may as well apply all effects in MONO but with a much bigger more powerful transducer unit to the seat, if you believe in that "flow over the rig like a real car" approach.

Its just that, the way some "tubers" describe things. No offense to any of them but most sim channels do not have very much experience with tactile other that items shipped to them to review. Or they are copying some other video they seen do similar.

Control
What will give you better immersion and many people found with alu profile based rigs, is to apply tactile to seat/pedals and to isolate both those as individual platforms. So in this scenario we send to the seat/pedals the actual appropriate effects that should be felt within them. Any effects we want in both region, then this is done in Simhub by how we map out the output of the effects. We can with this as an approach (PC Sims) achieve much better control in output for individual front/rear sensations (oversteer/understeer) or feeling rear wheelspin only in the seat and wheelspin of front wheels primarily in the pedals.

Multi exciters on seats as highlighted give you much more control over stereo positional effects and these could be combined with exciters on pedals. Having close proximity units like exciters directly on seat/pedals gives again more direct control over what you feel in a specific body region. This can be important if seeking more advanced tactile or wanting to better feel more effects active together.

Trying to get stereo effects to work properly in close proximity with something like pedals is not so simple. As again the vibration to a unit on the left will easily be felt on the right side of the pedal plate or foot rest.
Hmmm alright let me reword that. What would you go with if you were limited to using 4 shakers, that Douk M4 amp and a sound card, only because I thought that M4 required a sound card.
 
Hmmm alright let me reword that. What would you go with if you were limited to using 4 shakers, that Douk M4 amp and a sound card, only because I thought that M4 required a sound card.
Focus on the seat first.
Proper tub seat with 4x of the recommended exciters.

With that you will get more immersion in effects and better delivery of those effects straight into your body.
Also with more control of how you apply effects to the different units and not necessarily the same to each unit.

You need to think beyond the operational ability of a single unit being made responsible for all effects output or all elements of a specific effect generated only by that single unit. * More units means more options in ways we can make effects and how we deliver those effects to the body.


From 4 units, then as you are aware this can be expanded/upgraded if you ever want to.


Soundcard:
Various of the Nobsound / Douk Audio amps actually are also soundcards.
I cant recall with the M4 if it is detected as a 4 channel soundcard in Simhub

Although, you could consider buying the best performing budget soundcard that I tested.
Reason being, that their are differences in soundcards quality of output in measure dB. Even some that do not offer the same level or quality of output over all channels equally. Worse case being what looked like harmonic distortion on one and others that had worse bass roll off than others.

Card I would recommend and its cheap...


Clearly outperforms another card that some others recommend in their guides.
More efficient and with improved lower bass roll off based on this test I did a good while ago.

* Effect was tested/measured based on 3x responses on each card
The reason being Simhub will not always generate the same identical response

 
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Can anyone recommend an amp for 6 exciters or is the basic rule to run 2? I am located in the USA so some of the options I’ve seen seem a bit price excess ($300+) to run 6 exciters
Maybe Mr Latte can make up a list for you to keep it under $300 USD?
 
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Thanks @Mr Latte and @hawkeyez. I have no problem spending a bit of money here, but would like to be able to make sure I am getting the effects I am looking for. My thoughts on a 4 exciter package would be to use the following:

Sound Card ($40) - Amp ($80) - 3M Dual Lock ($22) - 4 EX32VBDS-4 IMS Exciters ($125) - https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...erchangable-Hardware-Mount-295-275?quantity=1
Cable / Crimp / Ancillary ($30)

Total for this setup is ~$300 + tax and will make a good addition to my BK Pro for some of the larger "thumps". Let's hope bonus season is good!
 
Thanks @Mr Latte and @hawkeyez. I have no problem spending a bit of money here, but would like to be able to make sure I am getting the effects I am looking for. My thoughts on a 4 exciter package would be to use the following:

Sound Card ($40) - Amp ($80) - 3M Dual Lock ($22) - 4 EX32VBDS-4 IMS Exciters ($125) - https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...erchangable-Hardware-Mount-295-275?quantity=1
Cable / Crimp / Ancillary ($30)

Total for this setup is ~$300 + tax and will make a good addition to my BK Pro for some of the larger "thumps". Let's hope bonus season is good!
For the price that is perhaps as good as you might get for a 4 channel tactile experience?
Yes you can add the BK Pro for either combined low bass addition for specific effects. Or to use it for other specific effects roles.

That idea is part of my own RaceBass approach and seeking to build effects that did not just rely on the operation or performance limitations of a single unit. The idea was to have basic effects, for exciters or in some cases just budget tactile. Then to have more advanced effects for the installations following my own methods and using the recommended hardware suggested.

In comparison, the closest packaged option is the U-SHAKE 6 $429

However it relies on using 6x 20W TT25 units, but with less performance, less power and the effects profiles available from SRS not only may need a subscription to get the best ones they offer. Even with that, from what I seen, their effects fall well short of the effects approaches that are possible with Simhub.

At this time with the new exciters emerging, particularly this one it might be best to hold off to see if we have a better performance option now available. It is much larger/heavier but it may need some form of additional mounting solution for the back/sides of a seat.

Keep an eye on the previously linked thread on RD forums for updates.


Oh and btw not all Dual Lock is the same, look for SJ387B this was the best for me and I think strongest.

 
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For the price that is perhaps as good as you might get for a 4 channel tactile experience?
Yes you can add the BK Pro for either combined low bass addition for specific effects. Or to use it for other specific effects roles.

That idea is part of my own RaceBass approach and seeking to build effects that did not just rely on the operation or performance limitations of a single unit. The idea was to have basic effects, for exciters or in some cases just budget tactile. Then to have more advanced effects for the installations following my own methods and using the recommended hardware suggested.

In comparison, the closest packaged option is the U-SHAKE 6 $429

However it relies on using 6x 20W TT25 units, but with less performance, less power and the effects profiles available from SRS not only may need a subscription to get the best ones they offer. Even with that, from what I seen, their effects fall well short of the effects approaches that are possible with Simhub.

At this time with the new exciters emerging, particularly this one it might be best to hold off to see if we have a better performance option now available. It is much larger/heavier but it may need some form of additional mounting solution for the back/sides of a seat.

Keep an eye on the previously linked thread on RD forums for updates.


Oh and btw not all Dual Lock is the same, look for SJ387B this was the best for me and I think strongest.

I was already gifted a BK Pro so will likely continue to use it in the setup as it is out of the return window. Will follow the RD forum as well for testing. As I am interested in those units.

Interesting I am not able to find the exact Dual Lock in the U.S.
 
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