GT7 B-Spec Thread

[Voodoovaj]

As an aside, I hope there's an update soon that let's us change the driver suit and helmet of our AI opponents

ABSOLUTELY!!! I already have the names changed.

They should also increase the damage effect, especially engine damage. "Bad" drivers should abuse the cars.

 

[Chuk713]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Why Gran Turismo 7 Doesn’t Have B-Spec Mode (Yet)​

Since the Gran Turismo 7 Power Pack DLC re-introduced endurance races to the franchise, speculation about the possible return of “B-Spec” mode has reached a fever pitch. We had a chance to ask Kazunori Yamauchi about it during a round-table interview at the Gran Turismo World Finals here in Fukuoka, Japan, and his answer turned out to be quite interesting...

So, what you are saying is that AI will not take orders from humans? 🤔

 

[o000o]

“I can’t say that it’s impossible, but there are a few hurdles involved in that,” Yamauchi explained. “In terms of controllability, the Sophy AI is a lot more difficult to work with. If you do B-Spec, obviously you want to direct the driver. That’s why it’s a difficult time to do [it] with the neural network.”

Oh for the love of all that is holy, WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO DO?????? This is the worst possible direction for B Spec. The GT5 B-Spec was heading in the right direction.

B-Spec should lean into Sophy's learning. Give the player to tools/gameplay to train up Sophy drivers and create a team of Sophy's. Train up a team, like a bunch of Tamagotchi, and then let them loose with some vague orders. B-Spec should be more passive than active. Metal Gear 5 is a great example. You assemble an army, and manage the staff, but the army fights without you being present. You just send them into battle. It's a great meta game.

B-Spec should be 100% emergent gameplay, not directed game play. I don't want to be staying awake 14 hours into a 24 hour race to tell my Sophy driver to speed up or slow down!! I want them to know what to do! I want to build talent. I want to manage a team. Who wants to micromanage drivers? Then you'd just drive for yourself.

I'd give my left 🥜 to be given the opportunity to go direct this for them.

Does directing mean always staying awake? I mean technically GT4 and IIRC GT6 has you directing the player, like just choosing which pace the B-Spec driver drives, leaving it like at 3 (Medium) then just leave the game to finish the job. It's still not just having the AI race and have you watch, games like GT4 also has options to direct the B-Spec driver to go to pit or overtake.

For using Sophy, it's about making them more capable in racing, as the B-Spec AI previously was the same crap AI used for chase the rabbit format.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Does directing mean always staying awake? I mean technically GT4 and IIRC GT6 has you directing the player, like just choosing which pace the B-Spec driver drives, leaving it like at 3 (Medium) then just leave the game to finish the job. It's still not just having the AI race and have you watch, games like GT4 also has options to direct the B-Spec driver to go to pit or overtake.

The last implementation meant CONSTANTLY directing the driver. If you didn't, they would crawl around the track, so the player was best served by giving them a car that was significantly faster than the other, so you didn't have to babysit the AI.

PD has a philosophy of iterating on their features rather than starting over. With B-Spec, they need to go back to the GT5 direction and get away from directing the AI.

For using Sophy, it's about making them more capable in racing, as the B-Spec AI previously was the same crap AI used for chase the rabbit format.

I wish people would stop conflating different topics.

The "chase the rabbit" is an intentional design choice separate from the function of the AI. All the AI does it make it's way around the track and try to avoid colliding with other cars. Beyond that, it's an intentional design choice from PD. Even the base AI is capable of driving faster than the player, but the base game is not set up to showcase that. In the same way that the Power Pack does not showcase Sophy properly.

I've posted numerous video of exactly how capable Sophy can be when it's allowed to race. It's unfortunate that they have chosen to (quite literally) hide this in the custom race feature.

 

[equalitus]

The essential feature of B-spec with AI Sophy would be to choose different cars/PP/BHP/tires etc. & then experiment with it similar to what we can do with custom race if applied. Then B-spec should be more like in GT5 but no separate B-spec career mode. Kaz is talking straw man here.

 

[superjag86]

Putting "B-Spec" to the side for one sec given the newly introduced complexity of neural drivers and the problems with player commands on top of that what if Polyphony work on an "S-Spec" mode which just pairs you with a Sophy driver and they take over when you pit.
Yes you don't have control on when they push or not but they just drive how they'd drive and we sub back in when they've driven their stint.
It could also let us fast forward time for their stints like it does in Qualifying at the moment which would help balance the length of the race with the realism of having teammates in endurance races.

 

[Mafio]

I hope if and/or they get it down, there’s some app connectivity. Being able to run endurance races while at work would be cool. Id be happy with just info and dots going around a track.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I hope if and/or they get it down, there’s some app connectivity. Being able to run endurance races while at work would be cool. Id be happy with just info and dots going around a track.

 

[Mafio]

Or an app because, like I said, I don’t need to see it. Plus, I can’t just whip out a hand held at work. An app would be more discreet…..and cheaper, thus more accessible.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Again, from the article :
“I can’t say that it’s impossible, but there are a few hurdles involved in that,” Yamauchi explained. “In terms of controllability, the Sophy AI is a lot more difficult to work with. If you do B-Spec, obviously you want to direct the driver. That’s why it’s a difficult time to do [it] with the neural network.”

I am completely puzzled by this, because it sounds like a made up excuse. What does the neural network have to do with it?

Follow along. Humans are very complex creatures. How do racing teams control those complex creature IRL? They give them orders, often directing them to go to a different engine mapping.

The game already has 6 maps (1-6). In a B Spec race, all the cars can be in map 2-4 as a default. If you order your driver to "speed up" they change map (map1 or map 2), in fact, it should be as simple as "GO TO" and then select the map number (1-6). No "neural network" gymnastics. Simple for both the player and the AI to understand. As for the other drivers, you can have a global race manager that sets mapping for each rival car. If they are behind the player, decrease map number, if they are ahead of the player, increase map number.

 

[Bornhall]

Unsubbing from this thread, it’s testing my patience.

 

[digitalic]

Please bring back B-SPEC mode. One reason I love this mode is that sometimes when I don't feel like driving, I will sit back and prefer to watch a live race between the CPU drivers, and with the beautiful graphics of GT7, this would make B-SPEC so worth it.

 

[tonidavid5]

Please bring back B-SPEC mode. One reason I love this mode is that sometimes when I don't feel like driving, I will sit back and prefer to watch a live race between the CPU drivers, and with the beautiful graphics of GT7, this would make B-SPEC so worth it.

You know that, for the specific reason you mention, you don't need B-spec. Just do a a Custom Race, park your car off track at the corner of your choice and pick a Reggie/Sophie driver of your choice to follow the race. Or let it run and watch the replay.

 

[pornomazinger]

You know that, for the specific reason you mention, you don't need B-spec. Just do a a Custom Race, park your car off track at the corner of your choice and pick a Reggie/Sophie driver of your choice to follow the race. Or let it run and watch the replay.

I use to do that, but it is not the same....🤣

 

[eran0004]

Again, from the article :
“I can’t say that it’s impossible, but there are a few hurdles involved in that,” Yamauchi explained. “In terms of controllability, the Sophy AI is a lot more difficult to work with. If you do B-Spec, obviously you want to direct the driver. That’s why it’s a difficult time to do [it] with the neural network.”

I am completely puzzled by this, because it sounds like a made up excuse. What does the neural network have to do with it?

A neural network can't be programmed in the same way as a traditional logic-based AI. A neural network has to be trained in order to develop new behaviour, which is more complicated and more unpredictable than programming a traditional AI.

For example, Sophy has some internal concept of what an overtake is, but the human trainer has no idea how to access it and Sophy is not aware of its own "knowledge" so that it could initiate an overtake on command. The behaviour of Sophy (and other neural network) is more similar to acting on instinct than acting based on an aware intellectual process.

At the present, telling Sophy to initiate an overtake is like telling a squirrel to go gather nuts in preparation for winter. In both cases it's a behaviour that the agent has, but there is no way for a human instructor to trigger it.

Sophy can be trained to listen to human commands, but to achieve that is more complicated than programming a traditional AI based on logic.

 

[05XR8]

I use to do that, but it is not the same....🤣

The Spectate option in the Power Pack qualifying and Lobby spectating would be so sweet if we could pick certain locations on track.
It's been repeated by many of us that just want to watch a race, but it's also a good tool for an immersive feel at a circuit. Especially if such an option were available for PSVR2 VR replay.

 

[Voodoovaj]

A neural network can't be programmed in the same way as a traditional logic-based AI. A neural network has to be trained in order to develop new behaviour, which is more complicated and more unpredictable than programming a traditional AI.

You, and Kaz, are conflating the driver and the car. Sophy needs to drive the car, and that's it.

The player "commands", and indeed Sophy growth, would simply change the car. Let's say Sophy is set to operate at 100% of the car's capacity. So it's on Map 1 and driving as fast as it can. What happens if that same car is changed to Map 2, or 3? It slows down, right? Sophy can still be a 100% driver, but the car is an 80% car.

Same with "less capable" Sophy. A Rookie Sophy would be driving on Map 6 on CH tires, so when it's in a fast car, it will appear to be a terrible driver.

Also, and I just pointed this out in the Power Pack thread, if you turn on the braking markers, you can see how the "slow" Sophy drivers stop well in advance of the braking markers, while the faster ones brake at the edge of the markers. If you make a custom race and set the boost to weak, Sophy will brake at the edge of the marker or 1 line into the marker. The point being that it already has a variable behaviour, so this whole "neural network training" narrative is exposed by watching what Sophy does right now.

 

[eran0004]

You, and Kaz, are conflating the driver and the car. Sophy needs to drive the car, and that's it.

The player "commands", and indeed Sophy growth, would simply change the car. Let's say Sophy is set to operate at 100% of the car's capacity. So it's on Map 1 and driving as fast as it can. What happens if that same car is changed to Map 2, or 3? It slows down, right? Sophy can still be a 100% driver, but the car is an 80% car.

Same with "less capable" Sophy. A Rookie Sophy would be driving on Map 6 on CH tires, so when it's in a fast car, it will appear to be a terrible driver.

Also, and I just pointed this out in the Power Pack thread, if you turn on the braking markers, you can see how the "slow" Sophy drivers stop well in advance of the braking markers, while the faster ones brake at the edge of the markers. If you make a custom race and set the boost to weak, Sophy will brake at the edge of the marker or 1 line into the marker. The point being that it already has a variable behaviour, so this whole "neural network training" narrative is exposed by watching what Sophy does right now.

Sure, switching fuel maps would change the pace and help Sophy save fuel and that's something that could be implemented with the Sophy we have now. But I think the point Kaz is making is that the player would want more control of the B-spec driver than that. For example you might want to tell Sophy when to push for an overtake, when to make a pit stop, or when to reduce pace to reduce the rate of tyre wear (changing fuel map won't help with that).

 

[tonidavid5]

Sure, switching fuel maps would change the pace and help Sophy save fuel and that's something that could be implemented with the Sophy we have now. But I think the point Kaz is making is that the player would want more control of the B-spec driver than that. For example you might want to tell Sophy when to push for an overtake, when to make a pit stop, or when to reduce pace to reduce the rate of tyre wear (changing fuel map won't help with that).

My opinion is that B-Spec mode you refer to would be like a new game called "GT manager".
Awesome to have at a point in time, but given the fact that we now have endurance races as IRL with either the Power Pack or through Custom Races, why not first implement the B-Spec that just replaces the player with Sophie driving its stint to the best of its abilities? That should be much easier to put into service.
The player-commanded control management aspects can be implemented at later stages.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Sure, switching fuel maps would change the pace and help Sophy save fuel and that's something that could be implemented with the Sophy we have now. But I think the point Kaz is making is that the player would want more control of the B-spec driver than that. For example you might want to tell Sophy when to push for an overtake, when to make a pit stop, or when to reduce pace to reduce the rate of tyre wear (changing fuel map won't help with that).

First off, changing fuel map does exactly that. This is exactly why they got rid of the fuel saving races in Sport Mode. Too many young guns who couldn't understand the concept of conservation got upset that someone could win the race thro0ugh conservation. You ran slow and steady, saved fuel and tires, and won the race.

Secondly, how stupid does a B-Spec driver need to be that you have to tell it to pass? The whole point of racing is to pass the driver in front of you. If we have to tell the B-spec driver to pass, that driver is broken.

@tonidavid5 nailed it. B-Spec should be a manager game. You build the team and train the drivers, and they go race. At that point, it's a different game mode with different goals. If I have to micromanage the drivers, the mode is a failure. I'll just race myself.

 

[eran0004]

First off, changing fuel map does exactly that.

It conserves fuel, yes. It doesn't conserve tyres.

Secondly, how stupid does a B-Spec driver need to be that you have to tell it to pass? The whole point of racing is to pass the driver in front of you. If we have to tell the B-spec driver to pass, that driver is broken.

The fact that you can tell it to pass doesn't mean that it needs to be told to pass. The point of racing is to win the race, sometimes that means working together with the driver in front of you to catch a car further up ahead.

 

[05XR8]

Thing is B-Spec is for the User to be driver and engineer. There's no option for the User to just be an engineer.

I don't know how the programming works, but what PD did to adjust GT SOPHY 3.0 isn't what players need.

@tonidavid5 nailed it. B-Spec should be a manager game. You build the team and train the drivers, and they go race. At that point, it's a different game mode with different goals. If I have to micromanage the drivers, the mode is a failure. I'll just race myself.

I'm definitely not coming at you, but watch a race. We see engineers telling racers in various scenarios to conserve and don't pass. No doubt to frustrated drivers that may not understand the long game of an endurance race. Racers do ask who they are battling for position. The engineer feeds that information.

Engineers do tell drivers to push at certain times of a race. It may not be for a pass on track. It could be to undercut or over cut for position during pit stops and/or to lighten fuel load for better tyre management. It could also mean for a driver to burn through a set of tyres to pit for fresh tyres at an early pit strategy and run long on another stint. Depending on the discipline and length of race, it’s not easy to say a driver is broken because they’re not passing or having to be told to pass.

The User micromanaging the team, as an option, is just what B-Spec should be. Difference with SOOHY is, it doesn’t seem to have fatigue like B-Spec Bob. How do they program that into learning AI?