GT7 B-Spec Thread

[Voodoovaj]

As an aside, I hope there's an update soon that let's us change the driver suit and helmet of our AI opponents

ABSOLUTELY!!! I already have the names changed.

They should also increase the damage effect, especially engine damage. "Bad" drivers should abuse the cars.

 

[Chuk713]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Why Gran Turismo 7 Doesn’t Have B-Spec Mode (Yet)​

Since the Gran Turismo 7 Power Pack DLC re-introduced endurance races to the franchise, speculation about the possible return of “B-Spec” mode has reached a fever pitch. We had a chance to ask Kazunori Yamauchi about it during a round-table interview at the Gran Turismo World Finals here in Fukuoka, Japan, and his answer turned out to be quite interesting...

So, what you are saying is that AI will not take orders from humans? 🤔

 

[o000o]

“I can’t say that it’s impossible, but there are a few hurdles involved in that,” Yamauchi explained. “In terms of controllability, the Sophy AI is a lot more difficult to work with. If you do B-Spec, obviously you want to direct the driver. That’s why it’s a difficult time to do [it] with the neural network.”

Oh for the love of all that is holy, WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO DO?????? This is the worst possible direction for B Spec. The GT5 B-Spec was heading in the right direction.

B-Spec should lean into Sophy's learning. Give the player to tools/gameplay to train up Sophy drivers and create a team of Sophy's. Train up a team, like a bunch of Tamagotchi, and then let them loose with some vague orders. B-Spec should be more passive than active. Metal Gear 5 is a great example. You assemble an army, and manage the staff, but the army fights without you being present. You just send them into battle. It's a great meta game.

B-Spec should be 100% emergent gameplay, not directed game play. I don't want to be staying awake 14 hours into a 24 hour race to tell my Sophy driver to speed up or slow down!! I want them to know what to do! I want to build talent. I want to manage a team. Who wants to micromanage drivers? Then you'd just drive for yourself.

I'd give my left 🥜 to be given the opportunity to go direct this for them.

Does directing mean always staying awake? I mean technically GT4 and IIRC GT6 has you directing the player, like just choosing which pace the B-Spec driver drives, leaving it like at 3 (Medium) then just leave the game to finish the job. It's still not just having the AI race and have you watch, games like GT4 also has options to direct the B-Spec driver to go to pit or overtake.

For using Sophy, it's about making them more capable in racing, as the B-Spec AI previously was the same crap AI used for chase the rabbit format.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Does directing mean always staying awake? I mean technically GT4 and IIRC GT6 has you directing the player, like just choosing which pace the B-Spec driver drives, leaving it like at 3 (Medium) then just leave the game to finish the job. It's still not just having the AI race and have you watch, games like GT4 also has options to direct the B-Spec driver to go to pit or overtake.

The last implementation meant CONSTANTLY directing the driver. If you didn't, they would crawl around the track, so the player was best served by giving them a car that was significantly faster than the other, so you didn't have to babysit the AI.

PD has a philosophy of iterating on their features rather than starting over. With B-Spec, they need to go back to the GT5 direction and get away from directing the AI.

For using Sophy, it's about making them more capable in racing, as the B-Spec AI previously was the same crap AI used for chase the rabbit format.

I wish people would stop conflating different topics.

The "chase the rabbit" is an intentional design choice separate from the function of the AI. All the AI does it make it's way around the track and try to avoid colliding with other cars. Beyond that, it's an intentional design choice from PD. Even the base AI is capable of driving faster than the player, but the base game is not set up to showcase that. In the same way that the Power Pack does not showcase Sophy properly.

I've posted numerous video of exactly how capable Sophy can be when it's allowed to race. It's unfortunate that they have chosen to (quite literally) hide this in the custom race feature.

 

[equalitus]

The essential feature of B-spec with AI Sophy would be to choose different cars/PP/BHP/tires etc. & then experiment with it similar to what we can do with custom race if applied. Then B-spec should be more like in GT5 but no separate B-spec career mode. Kaz is talking straw man here.

 

[superjag86]

Putting "B-Spec" to the side for one sec given the newly introduced complexity of neural drivers and the problems with player commands on top of that what if Polyphony work on an "S-Spec" mode which just pairs you with a Sophy driver and they take over when you pit.
Yes you don't have control on when they push or not but they just drive how they'd drive and we sub back in when they've driven their stint.
It could also let us fast forward time for their stints like it does in Qualifying at the moment which would help balance the length of the race with the realism of having teammates in endurance races.

 

[Mafio]

I hope if and/or they get it down, there’s some app connectivity. Being able to run endurance races while at work would be cool. Id be happy with just info and dots going around a track.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I hope if and/or they get it down, there’s some app connectivity. Being able to run endurance races while at work would be cool. Id be happy with just info and dots going around a track.

 

[Mafio]

Or an app because, like I said, I don’t need to see it. Plus, I can’t just whip out a hand held at work. An app would be more discreet…..and cheaper, thus more accessible.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Again, from the article :
“I can’t say that it’s impossible, but there are a few hurdles involved in that,” Yamauchi explained. “In terms of controllability, the Sophy AI is a lot more difficult to work with. If you do B-Spec, obviously you want to direct the driver. That’s why it’s a difficult time to do [it] with the neural network.”

I am completely puzzled by this, because it sounds like a made up excuse. What does the neural network have to do with it?

Follow along. Humans are very complex creatures. How do racing teams control those complex creature IRL? They give them orders, often directing them to go to a different engine mapping.

The game already has 6 maps (1-6). In a B Spec race, all the cars can be in map 2-4 as a default. If you order your driver to "speed up" they change map (map1 or map 2), in fact, it should be as simple as "GO TO" and then select the map number (1-6). No "neural network" gymnastics. Simple for both the player and the AI to understand. As for the other drivers, you can have a global race manager that sets mapping for each rival car. If they are behind the player, decrease map number, if they are ahead of the player, increase map number.

 

[Bornhall]

Unsubbing from this thread, it’s testing my patience.

 

[digitalic]

Please bring back B-SPEC mode. One reason I love this mode is that sometimes when I don't feel like driving, I will sit back and prefer to watch a live race between the CPU drivers, and with the beautiful graphics of GT7, this would make B-SPEC so worth it.

 

[tonidavid5]

Please bring back B-SPEC mode. One reason I love this mode is that sometimes when I don't feel like driving, I will sit back and prefer to watch a live race between the CPU drivers, and with the beautiful graphics of GT7, this would make B-SPEC so worth it.

You know that, for the specific reason you mention, you don't need B-spec. Just do a a Custom Race, park your car off track at the corner of your choice and pick a Reggie/Sophie driver of your choice to follow the race. Or let it run and watch the replay.

 

[pornomazinger]

You know that, for the specific reason you mention, you don't need B-spec. Just do a a Custom Race, park your car off track at the corner of your choice and pick a Reggie/Sophie driver of your choice to follow the race. Or let it run and watch the replay.

I use to do that, but it is not the same....🤣

 

[eran0004]

Again, from the article :
“I can’t say that it’s impossible, but there are a few hurdles involved in that,” Yamauchi explained. “In terms of controllability, the Sophy AI is a lot more difficult to work with. If you do B-Spec, obviously you want to direct the driver. That’s why it’s a difficult time to do [it] with the neural network.”

I am completely puzzled by this, because it sounds like a made up excuse. What does the neural network have to do with it?

A neural network can't be programmed in the same way as a traditional logic-based AI. A neural network has to be trained in order to develop new behaviour, which is more complicated and more unpredictable than programming a traditional AI.

For example, Sophy has some internal concept of what an overtake is, but the human trainer has no idea how to access it and Sophy is not aware of its own "knowledge" so that it could initiate an overtake on command. The behaviour of Sophy (and other neural network) is more similar to acting on instinct than acting based on an aware intellectual process.

At the present, telling Sophy to initiate an overtake is like telling a squirrel to go gather nuts in preparation for winter. In both cases it's a behaviour that the agent has, but there is no way for a human instructor to trigger it.

Sophy can be trained to listen to human commands, but to achieve that is more complicated than programming a traditional AI based on logic.

 

[05XR8]

I use to do that, but it is not the same....🤣

The Spectate option in the Power Pack qualifying and Lobby spectating would be so sweet if we could pick certain locations on track.
It's been repeated by many of us that just want to watch a race, but it's also a good tool for an immersive feel at a circuit. Especially if such an option were available for PSVR2 VR replay.

 

[Voodoovaj]

A neural network can't be programmed in the same way as a traditional logic-based AI. A neural network has to be trained in order to develop new behaviour, which is more complicated and more unpredictable than programming a traditional AI.

You, and Kaz, are conflating the driver and the car. Sophy needs to drive the car, and that's it.

The player "commands", and indeed Sophy growth, would simply change the car. Let's say Sophy is set to operate at 100% of the car's capacity. So it's on Map 1 and driving as fast as it can. What happens if that same car is changed to Map 2, or 3? It slows down, right? Sophy can still be a 100% driver, but the car is an 80% car.

Same with "less capable" Sophy. A Rookie Sophy would be driving on Map 6 on CH tires, so when it's in a fast car, it will appear to be a terrible driver.

Also, and I just pointed this out in the Power Pack thread, if you turn on the braking markers, you can see how the "slow" Sophy drivers stop well in advance of the braking markers, while the faster ones brake at the edge of the markers. If you make a custom race and set the boost to weak, Sophy will brake at the edge of the marker or 1 line into the marker. The point being that it already has a variable behaviour, so this whole "neural network training" narrative is exposed by watching what Sophy does right now.

 

[eran0004]

You, and Kaz, are conflating the driver and the car. Sophy needs to drive the car, and that's it.

The player "commands", and indeed Sophy growth, would simply change the car. Let's say Sophy is set to operate at 100% of the car's capacity. So it's on Map 1 and driving as fast as it can. What happens if that same car is changed to Map 2, or 3? It slows down, right? Sophy can still be a 100% driver, but the car is an 80% car.

Same with "less capable" Sophy. A Rookie Sophy would be driving on Map 6 on CH tires, so when it's in a fast car, it will appear to be a terrible driver.

Also, and I just pointed this out in the Power Pack thread, if you turn on the braking markers, you can see how the "slow" Sophy drivers stop well in advance of the braking markers, while the faster ones brake at the edge of the markers. If you make a custom race and set the boost to weak, Sophy will brake at the edge of the marker or 1 line into the marker. The point being that it already has a variable behaviour, so this whole "neural network training" narrative is exposed by watching what Sophy does right now.

Sure, switching fuel maps would change the pace and help Sophy save fuel and that's something that could be implemented with the Sophy we have now. But I think the point Kaz is making is that the player would want more control of the B-spec driver than that. For example you might want to tell Sophy when to push for an overtake, when to make a pit stop, or when to reduce pace to reduce the rate of tyre wear (changing fuel map won't help with that).

 

[tonidavid5]

Sure, switching fuel maps would change the pace and help Sophy save fuel and that's something that could be implemented with the Sophy we have now. But I think the point Kaz is making is that the player would want more control of the B-spec driver than that. For example you might want to tell Sophy when to push for an overtake, when to make a pit stop, or when to reduce pace to reduce the rate of tyre wear (changing fuel map won't help with that).

My opinion is that B-Spec mode you refer to would be like a new game called "GT manager".
Awesome to have at a point in time, but given the fact that we now have endurance races as IRL with either the Power Pack or through Custom Races, why not first implement the B-Spec that just replaces the player with Sophie driving its stint to the best of its abilities? That should be much easier to put into service.
The player-commanded control management aspects can be implemented at later stages.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Sure, switching fuel maps would change the pace and help Sophy save fuel and that's something that could be implemented with the Sophy we have now. But I think the point Kaz is making is that the player would want more control of the B-spec driver than that. For example you might want to tell Sophy when to push for an overtake, when to make a pit stop, or when to reduce pace to reduce the rate of tyre wear (changing fuel map won't help with that).

First off, changing fuel map does exactly that. This is exactly why they got rid of the fuel saving races in Sport Mode. Too many young guns who couldn't understand the concept of conservation got upset that someone could win the race thro0ugh conservation. You ran slow and steady, saved fuel and tires, and won the race.

Secondly, how stupid does a B-Spec driver need to be that you have to tell it to pass? The whole point of racing is to pass the driver in front of you. If we have to tell the B-spec driver to pass, that driver is broken.

@tonidavid5 nailed it. B-Spec should be a manager game. You build the team and train the drivers, and they go race. At that point, it's a different game mode with different goals. If I have to micromanage the drivers, the mode is a failure. I'll just race myself.

 

[eran0004]

First off, changing fuel map does exactly that.

It conserves fuel, yes. It doesn't conserve tyres.

Secondly, how stupid does a B-Spec driver need to be that you have to tell it to pass? The whole point of racing is to pass the driver in front of you. If we have to tell the B-spec driver to pass, that driver is broken.

The fact that you can tell it to pass doesn't mean that it needs to be told to pass. The point of racing is to win the race, sometimes that means working together with the driver in front of you to catch a car further up ahead.

 

[05XR8]

Thing is B-Spec is for the User to be driver and engineer. There's no option for the User to just be an engineer.

I don't know how the programming works, but what PD did to adjust GT SOPHY 3.0 isn't what players need.

@tonidavid5 nailed it. B-Spec should be a manager game. You build the team and train the drivers, and they go race. At that point, it's a different game mode with different goals. If I have to micromanage the drivers, the mode is a failure. I'll just race myself.

I'm definitely not coming at you, but watch a race. We see engineers telling racers in various scenarios to conserve and don't pass. No doubt to frustrated drivers that may not understand the long game of an endurance race. Racers do ask who they are battling for position. The engineer feeds that information.

Engineers do tell drivers to push at certain times of a race. It may not be for a pass on track. It could be to undercut or over cut for position during pit stops and/or to lighten fuel load for better tyre management. It could also mean for a driver to burn through a set of tyres to pit for fresh tyres at an early pit strategy and run long on another stint. Depending on the discipline and length of race, it’s not easy to say a driver is broken because they’re not passing or having to be told to pass.

The User micromanaging the team, as an option, is just what B-Spec should be. Difference with SOOHY is, it doesn’t seem to have fatigue like B-Spec Bob. How do they program that into learning AI?

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm definitely not coming at you, but watch a race.

I watch races all the time. The engineers are 100%, forbidden by rule, to force the drivers to act. They can make a request and that's it. F1, and other series, forbid the garage to change the car's engine map on the fly, which they absolutely can do. At no point in all of that does the team need to be the brain of the driver.

Engineers do tell drivers to push at certain times of a race. It may not be for a pass on track. It could be to undercut or over cut for position during pit stops and/or to lighten fuel load for better tyre management. It could also mean for a driver to burn through a set of tyres to pit for fresh tyres at an early pit strategy and run long on another stint. Depending on the discipline and length of race, it’s not easy to say a driver is broken because they’re not passing or having to be told to pass.

All that is better served by an AI race manager rather than the player. Do you want to set an alarm for 2 AM to go check your 24 hour race? To see if you need to tell you driver to speed up or slow down? I certainly do not. That's not fun. And what if I do wake up at 2AM, only to see that I should have gotten p an hour earlier, because now the race is already lost for some ridiculous reason?

Have a general strategy for the race, and then let it go. I would MUCH rather spend my time training drivers on my schedule, than having to micromanage them on their schedule.

The User micromanaging the team, as an option, is just what B-Spec should be. Difference with SOOHY is, it doesn’t seem to have fatigue like B-Spec Bob. How do they program that into learning AI?

As you say, I'm not coming at you, but how are people asking questions about behaviours that we already see in game now?

You do the custom races. You know that passing a back of the field Sophy is much easier than a front of the field Sophy, why is that? It's because the behaviour/aggression of the Sophy's change through the field. Also, what happens when you pass a Sophy and gain a large enough gap? It gives up the chase.

How do you build in fatigue? The same as real life. You set stints and the drivers need to change. Fatigued or not fatigued is irrelevant. Like real life, increase the chances of an accident at night compared to the day. I could create a laundry list of tactics to force Sophy behaviours and none of them involve the core of it's learning.

 

[05XR8]

I watch races all the time. The engineers are 100%, forbidden by rule, to force the drivers to act. They can make a request and that's it. F1, and other series, forbid the garage to change the car's engine map on the fly, which they absolutely can do. At no point in all of that does the team need to be the brain of the driver.

All that is better served by an AI race manager rather than the player. Do you want to set an alarm for 2 AM to go check your 24 hour race? To see if you need to tell you driver to speed up or slow down? I certainly do not. That's not fun. And what if I do wake up at 2AM, only to see that I should have gotten p an hour earlier, because now the race is already lost for some ridiculous reason?

Have a general strategy for the race, and then let it go. I would MUCH rather spend my time training drivers on my schedule, than having to micromanage them on their schedule.

As you say, I'm not coming at you, but how are people asking questions about behaviours that we already see in game now?

You do the custom races. You know that passing a back of the field Sophy is much easier than a front of the field Sophy, why is that? It's because the behaviour/aggression of the Sophy's change through the field. Also, what happens when you pass a Sophy and gain a large enough gap? It gives up the chase.

How do you build in fatigue? The same as real life. You set stints and the drivers need to change. Fatigued or not fatigued is irrelevant. Like real life, increase the chances of an accident at night compared to the day. I could create a laundry list of tactics to force Sophy behaviours and none of them involve the core of its learning.

Engineers telling drivers what to do and giving instructions vary in race series. In V8 Supercars radio communication is broadcast with engineers telling drivers what to do. They’re told to drive to a (lap)number, that’s not a suggestion. That’s pretty much after the car and tyres are at optimum temperatures and then to manage when is the best time to act and react to cars around them. Of course drivers can pass and fight for position. Engineers will tell the driver what racers are on a different strategy and tell them to let another driver go by because the team have calculated where they will end up.

Yes, the idea is to win. Telling a driver, who can not read the whole field and does not know the strategy of the team and condition of all the cars around them, what to do throughout the race is part of it.

I do do custom races. I even do custom races by parking my car and letting Regular AI and GT SOPHY run without me challenging. It’s something players would like an option to do.

Fatigue is relevant. Real life have drivers getting too hot. Losing concentration due to not enough rest/poor conditioning before a race event. I’ve seen it plenty in V8 Supercars. How do they program that into an agent built on optimising racing lines?
Other than a command by the User to press “Pit In”, is there a fatigue on/off? Is it part of SOPHY learning according to time and/or race distance?

No doubt all of us have ideas we can through at how to, but PD are the ones implementing it based on what SONY AI cook up.

 

[Brego]

I have never run B-spec because I enjoy the driving myself, in fact it's the whole point of the game for me.

That being said, I do appreciate how other people want it, and I fully support it, I hope you get B-spec soon, and sure I'll try it myself, maybe I'll like it.

What I would like to see, and I do myself manually, is the net income on a per car basis. i.e., how much have I spent on the car, and how much has it earned? Most of the time, I upgrade cars only with the cr that I have earned with it, and it makes it much more satisfying and invested in each car. I think it could be done automatically, although I can see it would be lot of extra data. Or would it?

Does B-spec do this?

 

[05XR8]

I have never run B-spec because I enjoy the driving myself, in fact it's the whole point of the game for me.

That being said, I do appreciate how other people want it, and I fully support it, I hope you get B-spec soon, and sure I'll try it myself, maybe I'll like it.

What I would like to see, and I do myself manually, is the net income on a per car basis. i.e., how much have I spent on the car, and how much has it earned? Most of the time, I upgrade cars only with the cr that I have earned with it, and it makes it much more satisfying and invested in each car. I think it could be done automatically, although I can see it would be lot of extra data. Or would it?

Does B-spec do this?

Someone else can probably go in-depth, but what I remember from playing in GT4, we had to build up the B-Spec AI skill. I think we could have about five or six to use in a race. We could command the AI to push or run at a constant pace. The fatigue meter would drain like the gauge in a hybrid car and the AI would lose pace accordingly.

I don’t remember farming for credits because it was limited to the races B-Spec was used for. I seriously can’t remember how I played in GT5 & GT6.
Can’t recall if your friends could race against your own B-Spec AI.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I have never run B-spec because I enjoy the driving myself, in fact it's the whole point of the game for me.

That being said, I do appreciate how other people want it, and I fully support it, I hope you get B-spec soon, and sure I'll try it myself, maybe I'll like it.

What I would like to see, and I do myself manually, is the net income on a per car basis. i.e., how much have I spent on the car, and how much has it earned? Most of the time, I upgrade cars only with the cr that I have earned with it, and it makes it much more satisfying and invested in each car. I think it could be done automatically, although I can see it would be lot of extra data. Or would it?

Does B-spec do this?

In GT5 you built a team of drivers and trained them up.

You could race with them, but their pace was based on the qualities listed in the phot above. You could train them (by using them in races) and race with them as part of your team.

In GT6 they added more micromanagement and it made it MUCH worse.

Engineers telling drivers what to do and giving instructions vary in race series. In V8 Supercars radio communication is broadcast with engineers telling drivers what to do. They’re told to drive to a (lap)number, that’s not a suggestion. That’s pretty much after the car and tyres are at optimum temperatures and then to manage when is the best time to act and react to cars around them. Of course drivers can pass and fight for position. Engineers will tell the driver what racers are on a different strategy and tell them to let another driver go by because the team have calculated where they will end up.

Yes, the idea is to win. Telling a driver, who can not read the whole field and does not know the strategy of the team and condition of all the cars around them, what to do throughout the race is part of it.

I do do custom races. I even do custom races by parking my car and letting Regular AI and GT SOPHY run without me challenging. It’s something players would like an option to do.

Fatigue is relevant. Real life have drivers getting too hot. Losing concentration due to not enough rest/poor conditioning before a race event. I’ve seen it plenty in V8 Supercars. How do they program that into an agent built on optimising racing lines?
Other than a command by the User to press “Pit In”, is there a fatigue on/off? Is it part of SOPHY learning according to time and/or race distance?

No doubt all of us have ideas we can through at how to, but PD are the ones implementing it based on what SONY AI cook up.

I don't think you understand. If I have to babysit an AI driver through an endurance race, I'll simply not do it and many will follow suit. No one, and I mean NO ONE, wants to sit there and tell their driver "increase pace" over and over again, in the middle of the night of a 12-24 hour race.

IRL, a driver doesn't have the view of everything. This is a game. The code has access to all the information we have access to. Micromanagement is the worst possible choice for this.

 

[Nebuc72]

GT5 offline B-Spec is probably some of the least fun I've ever had playing a game. It's less engaging than Cookie Clicker yet somehow demands all of my attention otherwise the driver forgets how to drive.
Can give it the best car in the world but it gets too far ahead it'll get 'bored' (start driving really really slow for no reason!) and you have to mash Speed Up every time it's available so you haven't wasted 20-30 minutes of your life because they also made the races 2x longer for some reason.

The oval ones are ghastly. No challenge or fun to it whatsoever but don't you dare stop mashing Speed Up, lest they start braking into the banking at Daytona in an LMP.
It's fake gameplay as far as I'm concerned. Pure padding in its worst form.

 

[05XR8]

In GT5 you built a team of drivers and trained them up.

You could race with them, but their pace was based on the qualities listed in the phot above. You could train them (by using them in races) and race with them as part of your team.

In GT6 they added more micromanagement and it made it MUCH worse.

I don't think you understand. If I have to babysit an AI driver through an endurance race, I'll simply not do it and many will follow suit. No one, and I mean NO ONE, wants to sit there and tell their driver "increase pace" over and over again, in the middle of the night of a 12-24 hour race.

IRL, a driver doesn't have the view of everything. This is a game. The code has access to all the information we have access to. Micromanagement is the worst possible choice for this.

Of course I understand. Don’t you remember? Everyone plays the way they want to play. That’s why there are options. If one out of one hundred want to stay up in the middle of the night of a 12-24 hour race that’s their choice if there’s that option. You don’t have to, if there is that option.

Look what’s happening now. Many people that use Custom Race don’t want to have to buy different cars and tune them differently, right? That’s optional. How many of us do that? I’m sure it’s not the majority.