GTP Cool Wall: 2009 Pagani Zonda Cinque

[Beeblebrox237]

@Tyger For the last time: people who vote SU do not generally think that that type of car should not be polled and they aren't generally doing it for any reason other than the fact that they find that car to be seriously uncool. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

When all is said and done this is a "Like Wall" because there is no such thing as objective coolness, that's an antiquated notion. So I would be interested to know why you apparently dislike race cars and limited production run cars?

It's a cool wall. The name, Cool Wall, is a bit of a giveaway. Whether I like these cars is irrelevant, what is relevant is whether I find something cool or not.

 

[Roo]

Beeble if you are right then I take back the majority of what said, but I've never got the impression that people vote SU over and over for such cars because they genuinely think they are uncool.

I do, because I genuniely think they're seriously uncool. I may or may not like them, but that's not what we're voting on. Which leads me to point 2:

When all is said and done this is a "Like Wall" because there is no such thing as objective coolness, that's an antiquated notion.

No it isn't. It's a Cool Wall. It says so right at the top of the page. There's no such thing as objective likeness, either. For example: I currently drive a 2000 Suzuki Swift with a 3 cylinder, 1 litre engine. Objectively, it's crap. But I like it. I like the way I can feel the Livelong Ditchfinder tyres loading up and then losing grip. I like the way I can absolutely cane it down a B road and still not break the speed limit. I like that I can get 4 bales of hay in the back. But it's still a bad car, and it's still uncool - because how good something is, how cool something is and how much something is liked are not the same thing.

I voted SU on this Pagani. Had this been a Like Wall, prehaps looking like this -

- Really Like
- Like
- Meh
- Dislike
- Really Dislike

- I'd have voted Like. But it's not a Like Wall, it's a Cool Wall, so I voted Seriously Uncool because that's what I think it is. I'd have voted Really Like on the Williams FW14/B, but voted it Seriously Uncool, for the same reasons given in my post Tornado linked to.

 

[Tyger]

@Tyger For the last time: people who vote SU do not generally think that that type of car should not be polled and they aren't generally doing it for any reason other than the fact that they find that car to be seriously uncool. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

Beeble you have completely misunderstood my point, I'm only talking about the people who do automatically vote SU because Racecar etc, not those who have other reasons for disliking a specific model or thinking it uncool. Hence "SUBRC", unless people genuinely just hate motorsports or racecars, which would be...interesting I guess, but then I welcome such folks to elaborate as to why, other than arguing that they don't fit in the cool wall period.

 

[Tyger]

I do, because I genuniely think they're seriously uncool. I may or may not like them, but that's not what we're voting on. Which leads me to point 2:



No it isn't. It's a Cool Wall. It says so right at the top of the page. There's no such thing as objective likeness, either. For example: I currently drive a 2000 Suzuki Swift with a 3 cylinder, 1 litre engine. Objectively, it's crap. But I like it. I like the way I can feel the Livelong Ditchfinder tyres loading up and then losing grip. I like the way I can absolutely cane it down a B road and still not break the speed limit. I like that I can get 4 bales of hay in the back. But it's still a bad car, and it's still uncool - because how good something is, how cool something is and how much something is liked are not the same thing.

The latter two are, unless you are Henry Winkler. If they aren't, please define "Coolness".

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Beeble you have completely misunderstood my point, I'm only talking about the people who do automatically vote SU because Racecar etc, not those who have other reasons for disliking a specific model or thinking it uncool. Hence "SUBRC", unless people genuinely just hate motorsports or racecars, which would be...interesting I guess, but then I welcome such folks to elaborate as to why, other than arguing that they don't fit in the cool wall period.

Since you seem so certain that these people are ruining the cool wall, why don't you start by proving to the rest of us that these people exist, and that there is a large number of them.

And just so you know, I agree with the SUBRC idea because I think racing cars are almost universally uncool. That's why people say SUBRC. Because they think racing cars are uncool.

I'll spell it out for you in words of one syllable: Guys who post that race cars are not cool and vote that they are not cool do not want to change the cool wall. They think race cars are not cool and vote that way.

 

[Roo]

The latter two are

They aren't. We've been through this.

unless you are Henry Winkler.

I've no idea who that is.

*Googles 'Henry Winkler'*

Nope, still not seeing how he's relevant.

If they aren't, please define "Coolness".

I can't, because

there is no such thing as objective coolness

I can tell you why I consider racecars to be seriously uncool, but to save me having to type it again:

Liking something and something being cool are not the same thing. I like model railways, but they aren't cool at all.

Then there's race cars. Putting so much effort into something so pointless as travelling around in circles, or in a straight line for 400 metres, and trying to be faster than other circle travellers - "Look how quickly I can get back to where I started from 2 hours ago!" - is just utterly sad. Then there's the impracticality; sure, this car, for example, can travel at an average speed of 142mph around Le Mans, but when will that ever be useful or a benefit to anyone?

Then there's the noise - being deafened by something 100 yards away is not cool, it's damn annoying - and the inability for anyone else to be transported in it; how can anyone else find it cool if they can't experience it for more than the 2 seconds it takes to flash past, dipensing headaches as it goes?

That's way SUBRC exists - because race cars are, without exception, seriously uncool.

I like the Corvette, although it would be better if it was quieter. It looks really good as a yellow wedge, and I like that it uses off-the-shelf engine oil. I like that it can run hard for 24 hours, do a burnout, and not break, as I saw it do in person last month. But none of those things are even remotely cool.

Edit: and this post, to follow that.

 

[Tyger]

Since you seem so certain that these people are ruining the cool wall, why don't you start by proving to the rest of us that these people exist, and that there is a large number of them.

And just so you know, I agree with the SUBRC idea because I think racing cars are almost universally uncool. That's why people say SUBRC. Because they think racing cars are uncool.

I'll spell it out for you in words of one syllable: Guys who post that race cars are not cool and vote that they are not cool do not want to change the cool wall. They think race cars are not cool and vote that way.

OK. Many thanks for clearing that up, it had been troubling me. Same for limited production runs and prototypes then? Folks who otherwise vote across the range just think those cars are seriously uncool because...just because. Alrighty.

Sorry to be a broken record but why do you find all race cars to be uncool or seriously uncool? I'm genuinely interested, and apologies if you've said why before, may have missed that thread.

 

[Liquid]

Sorry to be a broken record but why do you find all race cars to be uncool or seriously uncool? I'm genuinely interested, and apologies if you've said why before, may have missed that thread.

Unobtainable museum pieces which you'll never drive and seldom ever actually see on the track after it's finished racing.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Same for limited production runs and prototypes then?

YES.

Sorry to be a broken record but why do you find all race cars to be uncool or seriously uncool? I'm genuinely interested, and apologies if you've said why before, may have missed that thread.

Various reasons, but essentially because normal people think they're silly. One of my best metrics for determining the coolness of a car is considering what would happen if you tried to take a beautiful woman out for dinner using that car. She's not going to like a hard riding, juvenile, loud, flashy supercar. She's going to like something classy, something interesting, something that might act to improve the date and improve her opinion of you. In one word, something cool.

 

[Tyger]

YES.

Various reasons, but essentially because normal people think they're silly. One of my best metrics for determining the coolness of a car is considering what would happen if you tried to take a beautiful woman out for dinner using that car. She's not going to like a hard riding, juvenile, loud, flashy supercar. She's going to like something classy, something interesting, something that might act to improve the date and improve her opinion of you. In one word, something cool.

You ARE the Fonz! Make sure to take your comb and leather jacket

What century are we in again?

 

[Tornado]

um aaaand?

And if you were able to convince people their thinking on the matter was wrong I imagine you would have done so when you went off on Famine about it then.


Here's some more:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-2006-audi-r8-lmp.330613/page-2#post-10801281

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gtp-cool-wall-mclaren-mp4-4.286994/page-2#post-8733561

 

[Tyger]

Oh I got a few likes and messages. TheCracker makes a great point in one of your links above, pretty much summing up a racecar as irrelevant to coolness. So don't vote on its coolness. Simples.

 

[Exorcet]

One of my best metrics for determining the coolness of a car is considering what would happen if you tried to take a beautiful woman out for dinner using that car. She's not going to like a hard riding, juvenile, loud, flashy supercar. She's going to like something classy, something interesting, something that might act to improve the date and improve her opinion of you. In one word, something cool.

This reminds me of a survey I once read. Sports cars are one of the preferred vehicles that women want men to have, behind only pick up trucks (which makes me think this ranking applies mostly to the US). Sports car could be considered distinct from supercars though. However loud music and dirtiness are apparently bigger turn-offs than a loud exhaust, which from my experience in being inches away from speakers beaming 110 dB garbage at me, I totally agree with.

http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/cars-that-attract-ladies.html

 

[Joey D]

Beeble you have completely misunderstood my point, I'm only talking about the people who do automatically vote SU because Racecar etc, not those who have other reasons for disliking a specific model or thinking it uncool. Hence "SUBRC", unless people genuinely just hate motorsports or racecars, which would be...interesting I guess, but then I welcome such folks to elaborate as to why, other than arguing that they don't fit in the cool wall period.

I automatically vote these cars uncool because I don't really need to think about it anymore. The Cool Wall has been around for what 5-6 years or something? By now I already know what I want to vote based on the car being polled.

But seriously, lighten up, this isn't a serious poll in anyway and is around to help stimulate some discussion in an otherwise stale sub-form.

 

[Tyger]

You're right, let's get back to the unqualified comments or the sheeples auto-voting SUBRC or those who like to be deliberately contrary for some sort of misguided short-lived tiny boost to their feeling of self-worth. But yeah in seriousness I will always argue a point if I think it was justified, but tenacity can sometimes make something seem a way bigger deal than it was in the first place. I am always light, if not right

 

[Joey D]

You're right, let's get back to the unqualified comments or the sheeples auto-voting SUBRC or being deliberately contrary for some sort of misguided tiny boost to their feeling of self-importance. But yeah in seriousness I will always argue a point if I think it was justified but tenacity can sometimes make something seem a way bigger deal than it was in the first place. I am always light

Why does the same thing need to be hashed out time and time again when a racecar or supercar comes up? Most people have stated time and time again why they vote the way they do, they don't need to explain again for the umpteenth time in every thread. They aren't "sheeple", most people have or at least agree with a point. I don't even know who originally said the uncool because racecar thing, but it doesn't matter because I agree with it.

And boosting of self importance for voting a certain way, dude you really are taking this way to seriously.

 

[TheCracker]

Perhaps this whole question of automatically uncool or SUBRC is worthy of its own thread - but then again, the debate surrounding the subject generally makes any thread it pops up in that much more interesting...

My thoughts on it are:

* We do have a Motorsports forum sub section where a purely race car based cool wall would be much more relevant. But then again, my reasoning behind voting SUBRC would still stand - but at least it wouldn't irritate those who are irritated by it in the Cars in General threads.

* As has already been pointed out, many many times, like is not the same as cool. There are many cars that I really really like but I still think are deeply uncool, this Zonda is just one. And many cars I hate but still reluctantly concede to be cool.

* the cool wall on GTP wouldn't exist without the Top Gear version. So we have to follow, to an extent, their reasoning behind what is 'cool' and what isn't. Therefore the Clarkson reasoning of 'picking up a date you are trying to impress' has to be taken into consideration. One of my main yard sticks to coolness is what I think the general public would think of me driving or getting in or out of the vehicle in question. Which is why I would in most cases vote a modern supercar as uncool or seriously uncool, as most owners appear to be ass hats.

* You can't remove the human element from a cars coolness. Without taking the owner/driver into account, you are just voting on an inanimate object. Which is also the reasoning behind one-off/prototypes/museum pieces being uncool or even void. They're not a car if you can't drive them.

 

[Tyger]

Why does the same thing need to be hashed out time and time again when a racecar or supercar comes up? Most people have stated time and time again why they vote the way they do, they don't need to explain again for the umpteenth time in every thread. They aren't "sheeple", most people have or at least agree with a point. I don't even know who originally said the uncool because racecar thing, but it doesn't matter because I agree with it.

And boosting of self importance for voting a certain way, dude you really are taking this way to seriously.

Oh sheesh I was agreeing with you. Anyway, as discussed above (not only by me) there are people who grab the coat-tails of things such as the "SUBRC" thing, as well as deliberately voting the opposite of what they might actually think (often without arguing either way). I'm not taking it seriously, ultimately I just find it a little sad for the people who nominate cars for this and want to see a reasonably balanced poll. Again, it's not about me.

 

[Tyger]

* You can't remove the human element from a cars coolness. Without taking the owner/driver into account, you are just voting on an inanimate object. Which is also the reasoning behind one-off/prototypes/museum pieces being uncool or even void. They're not a car if you can't drive them.

Oh for the love of...OK not going to bring this one up again, seriously attainability vs. coolness? How does a Camry rate on that scale? And go outside these forums and see how far you get with the "things being defined purely how useable they are to you" theory. As I've said before, admirably zen but also quite bizarre. OK OK I'll leave it.

 

[TheCracker]

The level of a cars attainability has nothing to do with coolness. But unattainable just renders something to the level of 'object' if it can't be driven then it's no longer a vehicle to be cool in.

 

[Tyger]

The level of a cars attainability has nothing to do with coolness. But unattainable just renders something to the level of 'object' if it can't be driven then it's no longer a vehicle to be cool in.

Then a crapton of cars must be only "objects" to you. But if you subscribe to that, and "coolness" becomes irrelevant, then don't vote on it. Which was exactly my original point.

 

[ImaRobot]

Then a crapton of cars must be only "objects" to you. But if you subscribe to that, and "coolness" becomes irrelevant, then don't vote on it. Which was exactly my original point.

If how someone votes bother you so much then avoid the threads. Sound's like a better idea then going around and telling everyone else to not vote a certain way.

 

[Tyger]

If how someone votes bother you so much then avoid the threads. Sound's like a better idea then going around and telling everyone else to not vote a certain way.

You're right, that would have been a lot easier. Let's always do what is easier.

 

[Liquid]

A separate GTP Hall Of Fame for race cars in the Motorsports subforum would surely be:

Love
Like
Dislike
Hate

Surely a coolness scale for a series of polling threads exclusively about race cars would be pointless?

 

[Beeblebrox237]

You're right, that would have been a lot easier. Let's always do what is easier.

It would not only have been easier, it would have been a lot nicer for us to not have to deal with you claiming that our opinions aren't valid because a lot of us agree with each other, and that we should stop voting because you don't agree with us.

 

[GranTurismo916]

Summary:
There is no "wrong" way to vote. Stop complaining.

 

[Tyger]

It would not only have been easier, it would have been a lot nicer for us to not have to deal with you claiming that our opinions aren't valid because a lot of us agree with each other, and that we should stop voting because you don't agree with us.

That's not what I said or implied, at any point. Pitchforks and burning torches, jeez.

 

[ImaRobot]

That's not what I said or implied, at any point.

The problem is, is that you don't think SUBRC is an opinion, rather then a hive mind following of sorts, when its not.

The same thing can be said for anyone that votes SZ on any V8 Muscle car, or Japanese Sports car, or Euro hot hatch. It is their opinion that brings them to think and vote in that manor, not because someone else said so.

Even so, if they saw someone post that and found that they agreed to that as well, what is the problem with that? That is still forming an opinion that just happens to in common with what someone else thinks. You where being somewhat polite at first, but still insisting that they stop voting which just makes it that much more negative. Also, the fact that you think that its just being done to skew results is ridiculous.

 

[Roger the Horse]

Read what you said again.

For the people still voting SU because very limited/prototype/racecar, could you please just not vote instead of skewing the poll for everyone else? We got the message, such cars are still polled, just don't vote on them. You really made your point way back. The rest of us respect your opinions but don't necessarily agree, but you are welcome to abstain from voting for such cars, as I often do for my own reasons.

That's exactly what you said.

 

[Tyger]

Read what you said again.



That's exactly what you said.

Yes that's exactly what I said, not that "your" (who exactly is that?) opinions aren't valid at all, or that everyone should agree with me. Seriously it's a long time since i debated at school but the ability to generalise and misquote here is shocking. You read my original post and see if I'm not simply asking that those who don't think certain cars qualify for the polls simply don't vote instead of automatically voting SU (again why not SZ?).

I never said people should be like me, never said genuine votes and opinions arent valid and I never said anyone was deliberately trying to skew the votes, more that those who kneejerk vote SUBRC or similar aren't necessarily considering the person who polled the car or the other people who think the nomination and poll is valid, and of interest. I asked that such people give it a rest. Those who honestly think such cars are kinda crappy and not at all cool, go for it, but if it's just because you don't think such cars qualify, you might want to just ignore the poll and leave it to those who are OK with it. It's that simple.