Has PD ever seen a real rally race?

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odnomre
I have DiRT 3. Played it once, never turned it back on. I'm sure i'll get hated for this but as soon as the "Colin McRae Rally" moniker was dropped, the franchise turned for the worst.
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I've only had Dirt 3. I like it but I have to say, I was (probably still am) confused what the goal of the game is. I wanted to do a campaign and go online in the group b cars. I don't see where there is the option to do this, certain stages/tracks inly allow certain cars?
 
Oberheim
What area's (besides sounds) would you like to see get attention/improvements to?
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Look at all the engine physics threads that have popped up and the issues that PD still have to tackle, damage model still needs work to. The cars still use the same basic tuning system (actually worse now than in the past) and mod parts and haven't gotten with the times. Livery editor that I recall even being able to use in NASCAR games back in the early PS2 days still hasn't made it to GT (still might). The list goes on.

Rude, how? I don't have a clue about drifting, really I thought it was something people did on street strips or carparks. I'd no idea it was a sport. I'm old school motor sports. Group B, Group C, Turbo F1 etc. Modern stuff is too rules and money focused in its objectives for me. I stopped watching motor sports end of '94. I just followed F1 untill Schumacher and co put Ferrari back on top.
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Just the way it reads, as if it's just a bunch of amateurs that get together and some how get hundreds of thousands of dollars in sponsorship money to compete. Sure people get together to drift, but they also do it with drag racing and some track racing/mountain racing. I'm an old school guy too, but I give everything a chance at least a couple time and understand how it works just in case. Motorsports is still interesting and fun if you know what to watch. Anyways the point is GT has drifting and the idea of it is to lose traction as well.
 
valhalla76
Rally racing is against the clock, not racing other cars on track to cross the line first.


This is not a "proper" rally race.
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Yep that's true i don't like that too but i meant how the car react on the road ecc... i really like it.

Btw i'm not a massive rally fan so i really don't care.. but i felt like complaining about the whole rally experience in GT6 wasn't fair, cause there are good things like: driving your car and have good feelings about it.

👍
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
Look at all the engine physics threads that have popped up and the issues that PD still have to tackle, damage model still needs work to. The cars still use the same basic tuning system (actually worse now than in the past) and mod parts and haven't gotten with the times. Livery editor that I recall even being able to use in NASCAR games back in the early PS2 days still hasn't made it to GT (still might). The list goes on.



Just the way it reads, as if it's just a bunch of amateurs that get together and some how get hundreds of thousands of dollars in sponsorship money to compete. Sure people get together to drift, but they also do it with drag racing and some track racing/mountain racing. I'm an old school guy too, but I give everything a chance at least a couple time and understand how it works just in case. Motorsports is still interesting and fun if you know what to watch. Anyways the point is GT has drifting and the idea of it is to lose traction as well.
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I wasn't thinking amateurs but enthusiasts and if I didn't know it was a sport I wouldn't be knowing about sponsorship deals. I enjoy NASCAR, V8 Supercars and SuperGT/GT500. Trouble is, finding it in the UK is like trying to find the proverbial needle in a haystack. Still, I don't get the same level of excitement as the high power motor racing of the 80's.
 
Oberheim
I wasn't thinking amateurs but enthusiasts and if I didn't know it was a sport I wouldn't be knowing about sponsorship deals. I enjoy NASCAR, V8 Supercars and SuperGT/GT500. Trouble is, finding it in the UK is like trying to find the proverbial needle in a haystack. Still, I don't get the same level of excitement as the high power motor racing of the 80's.
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Why not watch WTCC then? And I'm surprised you don't get the same feeling since V8 Supercars are as good as those cars even if they don't have as much power. Though 650hp is quite a lot. Either way this is getting off topic.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Why not watch WTCC then? And I'm surprised you don't get the same feeling since V8 Supercars are as good as those cars even if they don't have as much power. Though 650hp is quite a lot. Either way this is getting off topic.
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Believe it or not, motorsport coverage is very weak in the UK. We regularly get F1 and British Touring Cars. I find both boring and massively watered down. I'll have a look into WTCC on the cable channels though, thanks for that.

EDIT: The hey day of car racing in the UK was in the 80's with Group B (all forms: rally, touring car etc), Turbo F1 and Group C World Sports Cars. F1 calmed down when Mansell left F1 (funnily enough, Indy Kart became very popular when he moved to that series). Most other sports that were broadcast died out very quickly after the demise of Group B/C. Bikes took over then with GP500 (now the formula has changed to Moto GP) and Superbikes. Even MotoX had a following but that's gone too!
 
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Scrap all these crap rally "tracks" for GT7, scrap rally "racing" entirely, and make an actual competent rally mode to the game. Point to point stages and events only, one car at a time only.

I mean, if they really want to keep them in there for special events or something, okay, but that's not rally racing. Give us point to point events, dammit. GT5's rally mode was somewhat ok. I mean, the stages were way too wide and they were bland, but at least it was point to point time trials.
 
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The physics on dirt are still suspect sadly. There's still no lateral grip once you go sideways, it's like you're on ice. I ask the question, has PD ever driven on dirt?

Because with proper tires on dirt, there's tons of grip, but slightly less responsive steering. And that's the problem with GT's dirt physics, the steering on dirt is too responsive, and there's a lack of grip.

And please oh please give us point to point rally. I'm completely burnt out on the dirt tracks we have. And i'm sure i'm not the only one. If they're going to put rallying and rally cars in the game. Do it some justice..
 
Another issue I have is with the Eiger Nordwand track-they ruined it! :grumpy:
In the Gran Turismo HD concept demo, the Eiger looked like a proper rally-style track:



Then in GT5 Prologue they decide to redesign the track and now it looks terrible and more out of place than the original. Why PD?!? :grumpy:
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
...The cars still use the same basic tuning system (actually worse now than in the past) and mod parts and haven't gotten with the times...
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I know you were probably talking about tuning in general, but GT6 at least now has 'rally suspension' (presumably for any street cars you fancied taking off-road.) The Scoobie I either bought or won though, other needing dirt tyres, came ready to rock for dirt with a suspension set-up that was appropriate. That was a good improvement.
 
MeanElf
I know you were probably talking about tuning in general, but GT6 at least now has 'rally suspension' (presumably for any street cars you fancied taking off-road.) The Scoobie I either bought or won though, other needing dirt tyres, came ready to rock for dirt with a suspension set-up that was appropriate. That was a good improvement.
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I'm not surprised that it did, being a Subaru and all...

Yeah I'm talking about tuning in general, there was a time you could work with caster and do more on the tuning page than you actually can now. As for mods there was a time we actually had stage 4 versions of things, and even had SS Racing tires, simulation tires, as well as different intercoolers, engine balancing, displacement upgrading though it was kind of done twice with the NA full engine upgrades. As well as other things that I'm probably forgetting

Oh and don't get me started on no qualifying

The point is with what they've done and what else they could have added from KW and Yokohama (drift tire compounds, road tires of all ranges, weather tires, racing tires of vast ranges), and then keep the stuff we've had over the years... I'd say a lot of the complaints would die down especially if the execution is there. Even if the execution needs work (which it does) the fact that it still caries many options would show they actually understand what players want.
 
Ok, to tackle the OP. I am a huge rally fan, if the name doesn't give that away. I gotta side with this view. I mean. in GT5, the Sebby Loeb challange was the closest GT has ever been to Rally. And I'm willing to be Sebastian had a lot to do with that. If I were the current rally God, I wouldn't endorse anything less. I think PD, much like they did with tires and suspension, needs to work with someone in the field, so they can get the details in there. Rally racing is not!!!!! road racing. Its not even like a time trial really. Only in the basic sense of racing the clock. They don't realistically or even on the mild scale hit any sort of accuracy of driving on dirt or snow. It just feels like they lower the grip, but don't try to simulate how a tire would actually react to dirt or snow. No digging the front inside tire in to a groove on the inside of a turn. No using the banks of snow on the outside of a corner to keep the car on course. Well, its there, just doesn't work like it should. If they actually worked with maybe a team, school or even a driver, it would go a LONG way in improving this.
This said. I am glad just to have some rally elements and rally cars. GT really isn't a rally game, its a road course racing game. That is the focus and it shows. Getting the AI to react properly on a rally course would pretty much require a completely different AI than what is used for road racing. On top of that, it is also probably more difficult as well. getting AI to follow something close to a racing line on a road course is easier than getting the AI to slide a car around, properly, on a dirt or snow course.
As much as I would love to see good rally racing in GT, I highly doubt we ever will, based on the fact that its not a rally racing game. The "track" physics would need reworking, as well as the tracks themselves.
Outside of this, it seems most complaints seem to be about the way that rallies are set up in the first place. Which I don't disagree with. But, we will have to see what happens with the track creator and whatever additional controls we get when the rest of the online features are added. We may not get to have great, realistic rally AI or physics, but we may at least get to set up proper rally stages and events online.
 
i really hate the Tasmanian Devil dust cloud behind the other cars. i can never tell where they are or see where i am going and end up smashing into them.
 
Oberheim
Believe it or not, motorsport coverage is very weak in the UK. We regularly get F1 and British Touring Cars. I find both boring and massively watered down. I'll have a look into WTCC on the cable channels though, thanks for that.

EDIT: The hey day of car racing in the UK was in the 80's with Group B (all forms: rally, touring car etc), Turbo F1 and Group C World Sports Cars. F1 calmed down when Mansell left F1 (funnily enough, Indy Kart became very popular when he moved to that series). Most other sports that were broadcast died out very quickly after the demise of Group B/C. Bikes took over then with GP500 (now the formula has changed to Moto GP) and Superbikes. Even MotoX had a following but that's gone too!
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Off-topic but I had to reply.

Sorry but this is utter nonsense. Right now I have more motorsport stacking up on my Tivo box that I can realistically watch, you just have to look outside of the main five channels.

Touring cars from around the world (BTCC, WTCC, Aussie V8, DTM and more), open wheel (F1, more formula stuff than you can count), Rally (WRC, FIA ERC, European Rallycross, Rally Raid, Dakar, Androis Ice), Sportscar and Endurance (Le Mans, ALMAS, Blancpain Endurance, etc) and well you get the idea.

Not only has their never been more motorsport on British TV (and I've been watching it since the '70's), but the duration of the coverage is far, far better than ever. You can watch every race of the BTCC (rather than highlights), all 24 hours of Le Mans and N24, every race from the V8 Supercars.

You may not have found it yet, but that most certainly doesn't mean its not on.
 
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They've seen cars line up at the start of a rally stage, but little else it seems. Again, picking and choosing the most cumbersome parts of reality. Speaking from GT5 experience, the physics feel too floaty and the AI on snow especially is a disaster. The Rallycross tracks are too narrow while the rally stages are too wide. The amount of dust and snow kicked up by cars makes clean racing in close proximity to other cars almost impossible. Ghosting does not prevent this, which sinks online rallying especially.
 
ShiftingGears
They've seen cars line up at the start of a rally stage, but little else it seems. Again, picking and choosing the most cumbersome parts of reality. Speaking from GT5 experience, the physics feel too floaty and the AI on snow especially is a disaster. The Rallycross tracks are too narrow while the rally stages are too wide. The amount of dust and snow kicked up by cars makes clean racing in close proximity to other cars almost impossible. Ghosting does not prevent this, which sinks online rallying especially.
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Unless your patient enough to actually run it like a true rally event online, which I and a handful of people are the only ones to do so. I can't blame people for not wanting to either.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Unless your patient enough to actually run it like a true rally event online, which I and a handful of people are the only ones to do so. I can't blame people for not wanting to either.
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Agreed, which is why I think rally in GT really only gets a quick once over. Most gamers don't really have the patience for true rally racing. Could you imagine if they made it true to life? run a stage, get your time, then start driving to the next stage, get a chance to make some quick changes to the car, then sit and wait however long until you need to till you're up to start the next stage! The issue there though. Most of that can be quickened/ skipped. But online, to porperly stage, some people are going to be waiting a while, since there should be a one minute gap between racers starting the stage. People just aint got time fo dat, as the saying goes.
I have considered trying to get a rallycross event going though. 3 groups of 4, all different classes, open, unlimited stock, and spec stock. This would give separation between the groups, and make it so you only have a few dust or snow clouds to work through and not a full grids worth, and everyone gets racing action off the start. I drift though, so I am used to gauging vehicles, braking, and turning points while behind all the smoke.
 
Rallywagon
...But online, to porperly stage, some people are going to be waiting a while, since there should be a one minute gap between racers starting the stage. People just aint got time fo dat, as the saying goes...
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The technology to run simultaneously is already there. When you qualify in online mode you already have the option to have everyone racing at the same time yet there's only one car on your screen. Sure, you won't have the chance to see what time the no. 1 runs and aim to improve that, but you won't have to sit and wait for someone to start driving.

It's not perfect, but you won't be looking at a dust cloud going "Where did the track go?"
 
Short answer - No.
Long answer - They watched a rallycross race and forgot about the 'cross' bit when producing the game.
 
Yes, but, without any sort of live time tracker, the event coordinator would be forced to take time on the honor system. Easier to have everyone on track and run a race, so one could actually track the time.
 
Let's be honest: the GT games never properly managed to do rally racing any justice. I never understood why the only true rally course (i.e. point-to-point) in the series was a section of Pikes Peak in GT2, which was a shame because it was very fun. If only they'd taken their ideas for their original courses like Smokey Mountain and Tahiti Maze and developed them into proper special stages as opposed to just racing circuits with big gradient drops and gravel, this may have been averted. For what it's worth, at least the dirt driving in 2, 3 and 4 was actually fun; 5 and 6 still treats the cars as though they're on a paved road, struggling to put any power down unless you fiddle with the settings.

As far as the atmosphere of the events went, they had that nailed in 4; the crowds, the klaxons going off every now and then, photographers jumping out onto the road and so on. If they combined those little things with actual point-to-point stuff, I'd consider it quite good.
 
IF they put poeple on the track, I would have to take a ford rs200 out...

Really, I would be happy with point to point races. But I have a feeling that PD is struggling with that. I have afeeling they really want to make point to point tracks. But are having issues getting it implemented right. If they really do bring the GPS track creator option to the table, it would almost certainly have to be point to point. unless they expect you to make a a full track out of some strip of road you drove. In which case, they should just not do it at all.
 
lightningd
what's the best rally game on ps3? sega rally on sega saturn was better than gt's version of rally.
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For PS3, the WRC games.

The very best however still remains to be Richard Burns Rally on the PC, updated by the community to this day (RSRBR 2014).

Play the vanilla version first (unmodded), all tutorials and everything, and once or if you get bored of it then install the mod. That's because both are a bit different and I prefer the former.
 
Scaff
Sorry but this is utter nonsense.
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Quite an arrogant response for a moderator. To assume everyone has access to Cable/Satellite broadcast is totally wrong. I was talking about terrestrial tv, in which case if it's not F1 don't bother. You might get 30mins for WRC every week and Le Mans a couple of times when it's on but that's about it.

Golf, Snooker, Cricket, Tennis and bloody Darts are what rules British sport on tv!

Yes, I have cable and the Tivo. I'd already stated in my last conversation eith 'Corevette' was I was going to have a look into finding the motor sports that interest me.
 
Oberheim
Quite an arrogant response for a moderator. To assume everyone has access to Cable/Satellite broadcast is totally wrong. I was talking about terrestrial tv, in which case if it's not F1 don't bother. You might get 30mins for WRC every week and Le Mans a couple of times when it's on but that's about it.

Golf, Snooker, Cricket, Tennis and bloody Darts are what rules British sport on tv!

Yes, I have cable and the Tivo. I'd already stated in my last conversation eith 'Corevette' was I was going to have a look into finding the motor sports that interest me.
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Not arrogant, simply a statement of fact. Plenty of Motorsport is available on TV in the UK. That its not all on Freeview/Sat doesn't mean it doesn't exist, which was the implication from your original post.
 
Scaff
Not arrogant, simply a statement of fact. Plenty of Motorsport is available on TV in the UK. That its not all on Freeview/Sat doesn't mean it doesn't exist, which was the implication from your original post.
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Oh, so wording it as 'Sorry but you're wrong there' or 'that's not correct' is out of your grasp? I still stand by my comment, terrestrial coverage is virtually non existent. That is the implication from my original post.
 
I'm just waiting for the course maker, i'm sure there's going to be proper rally events once that rolls around. I'm hoping for new features like multiple types of terrain in one track (like the eiger course). GT5 used the course maker to generate point to point stages so i expect GT6 to do the same.

You guys are kinda jumping the gun here.

Lastly the dirt driving in GT6 to me is phenomenal, especially with FR cars. Feels WAY better than a game like Dirt 3.
 
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