"Hidden variables" of tires

[DoctorNuu]

Hey guys, important question here.

What do we know about the tire model? Can't find enough sensible info.
I wonder why there is no sticky thread for (things like) this.

A. Temperature

Known facts:
1. Besides the obvious red outline when overcooking and light blue when standing around, there is no way of knowing the temperature.
2. On start/pit-stop, the tires are colder at first.

Questions:
1. Does weaving really do anything to shorten the cold phase? Does it depend on Tire wear setting? Obviously does IRL, but is it simulated at all?
2. Are there other effects of the hidden temperature? Obviously over/under-driving IRL would lead to hotter/colder tires and different grip levels.
3. Are there any lasting effects of overcooking them (flashing red) by a small slide?
4. A really bad slide seems to have a lasting effect. Is it forever? There seems to be no flat spot, but definitely some hidden degradation.
​

B. Dirt

Known facts:
1. When leaving the track, tires get dirty.
2. There are no other ways to get them dirty.
3. The marbles don't do anything, there are no clean and dirty parts of the track.

Questions:
1. Does weaving help to clean them? If not ,why bother.
2. Is the effect really gone after about one lap or is it just reduced? Important to know for pit strategy.
3. When does the effect happen exactly? IRL dipping two wheels on the dirt/grass already has a big effect, also
3. Does this depend on the strangely named "off-track grip reduction" setting?
4. Are there other effects?​

 

[XSquareStickIt]

Actually, if you have grip loss at wet track/ track edge set to Real (not available in time trail, but you can try it in a custom race), there does seem to be dirty parts of a track, most notably at paved edges beyond the white lines to discourage track limit abuse. I think this is most prominent at Le Mans, where going beyond the white lines on the Mulsanne Straight don't give penalties, but they seem to dirty up your tyres. The very small straight connecting turns 3 and 4 at Bathurst too, has a sizeable tarmac runoff at the right side of the track that feels just fine when grip loss is set to low, but absolutely destroys your braking distances into Turn 4 if set to real. In replays, you might even see dust kicked up by the car when you go over these parts of the track.

What I want to know is, do hard tyres warm slower than mediums, and mediums slower than softs? Do racing tyres heat up faster than sport tyres? And does turning your wheel rapidly at a standstill (like in the long intro sequence of the FIA races) help warm them? Does it destroy the tyres like it would in real life?

But, I think the biggest question to pose here is, why doesn't the pit crew warm the tyres beforehand like, you know, in real life?

 

[DoctorNuu]

Interesting observation with the track limits. Will check Bathurst next time. I don't think, however, that the graphics (dust cloud) is a good indication of what's going on. On Interlagos (Race C), you have one or two wheels on the dirt all the time and they are unaffected. But if you run really wide in T4 on the green pavement, the grip drops dramatically. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but this is not a rant, I just want to know what is.
It seems to me like there is never a point where only the right/left side is affected, despite this being the most common. They probably left that out because it's undriveable.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I think you're overcomplicating things here. The tyre model in GT is one of the simplest in sim racing. Apart from wear, cold tyres at the start and flash overheating it really doesn't have any other variables. I don't think it even has pressure simulation either (note that visual deformation =/= physics deformation).

My answers below:

Hey guys, important question here.

What do we know about the tire model? Can't find enough sensible info.
I wonder why there is no sticky thread for (things like) this.

A. Temperature

Known facts:
1. Besides the obvious red outline when overcooking and light blue when standing around, there is no way of knowing the temperature.
2. On start/pit-stop, the tires are colder at first.

Questions:
1. Does weaving really do anything to shorten the cold phase? Does it depend on Tire wear setting? Obviously does IRL, but is it simulated at all? I tried weaving but no difference to first corner performance personally.
2. Are there other effects of the hidden temperature? Obviously over/under-driving IRL would lead to hotter/colder tires and different grip levels. I doubt it.
3. Are there any lasting effects of overcooking them (flashing red) by a small slide? Apart from wearing your tyre a bit more due to the initial slide, no.
4. A really bad slide seems to have a lasting effect. Is it forever? There seems to be no flat spot, but definitely some hidden degradation. See above question. No lasting effects. Naturally you've ruined your tyres more than usual, which leads to more sliding, and more wear and so on. But no flatspots/blistering/graining/tearing.
​

B. Dirt

Known facts:
1. When leaving the track, tires get dirty.
2. There are no other ways to get them dirty.
3. The marbles don't do anything, there are no clean and dirty parts of the track.

Questions:
1. Does weaving help to clean them? If not ,why bother. Again, I don't think it makes a huge difference.
2. Is the effect really gone after about one lap or is it just reduced? Important to know for pit strategy. I'd say the effect lasts 2-3 corners for dirty tyres.
3. When does the effect happen exactly? IRL dipping two wheels on the dirt/grass already has a big effect, also. Whenever you go into grass/gravel.
3. Does this depend on the strangely named "off-track grip reduction" setting? Not sure, I always drive with grip reduction real.
4. Are there other effects? Don't think so.​

What I want to know is, do hard tyres warm slower than mediums, and mediums slower than softs? Do racing tyres heat up faster than sport tyres? And does turning your wheel rapidly at a standstill (like in the long intro sequence of the FIA races) help warm them? Does it destroy the tyres like it would in real life?

But, I think the biggest question to pose here is, why doesn't the pit crew warm the tyres beforehand like, you know, in real life?

Hards definitely warm slower than mediums and softs. I'm particularly bad at the start of the race because my driving style is not very aggressive and I struggle to switch on the tyres (aka Jenson Button syndrome). With Hards it usually takes me 1-1.5 laps to feel comfortable, Meds about 0.75-1 lap and Softs about half lap. I tried everything, turning left/right on the grid, weaving before first corner, setting BB max front, it doesn't make any huge difference.

IRL, the only series that use tyre warmers is F1 as far as I know. The difference is, in real life you have formation lap and the drivers have the opportunity to warm the tyres before the start. Whereas in FIA you sit there for close to a minute while your tyres become stone cold

 

[JayRS200]

I don't think GT gets enough credit with their tyre variables. For example even with tyre wear and fuel off, pushing hard in a multiple lap lobby race 12pm race using RS or RSS tyres in a GT3 car at Nür24h (BoP on), you'll feel the tyres lose grip near the end of lap 2 as they overheat.

 

[DoctorNuu]

I think you're overcomplicating things here. The tyre model in GT is one of the simplest in sim racing. Apart from wear, cold tyres at the start and flash overheating it really doesn't have any other variables.

Well one variable you don't mention is the 'dirtiness'. Which is clearly there, but unclear what exactly is simulated.

The other is that (maybe) tires can be ruined in a long slide or spin. On top on what the red bars in the HUD say.
I'm not sure, if it's a different effect than dirtiness, because often a spin will get you over track limits.

The third, as you mention, is flash overheat, but what does it really do? how long does it last?

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I don't think GT gets enough credit with their tyre variables. For example even with tyre wear and fuel off, pushing hard in a multiple lap lobby race 12pm race using RS or RSS tyres in a GT3 car at Nür24h (BoP on), you'll feel the tyres lose grip near the end of lap 2 as they overheat.

The only time I've felt the overheating grip loss last more than a few seconds, is if I do continuous burnouts/donuts (like almost a minute), and then try to drive the car. You can also see a faint red box outline around the tyre stay longer in this case. I've never had it occur in a normal race situation, then again it could be that my driving style doesn't generate enough heat, as I mentioned above.

Compare this to Assetto Corsa for example, I can overheat a tyre in just 2-3 laps of hard driving, and the grip loss is permanent until you drive a couple of slow laps to bring it back to normal temp. And the grip loss can happen even when the tyre still has plenty of life/rubber depth left.

Well one variable you don't mention is the 'dirtiness'. Which is clearly there, but unclear what exactly is simulated.

The other is that (maybe) tires can be ruined in a long slide or spin. On top on what the red bars in the HUD say.
I'm not sure, if it's a different effect than dirtiness, because often a spin will get you over track limits.

The third, as you mention, is flash overheat, but what does it really do? how long does it last?

Ok, so it's 4 factors then: wear, cold start, flash heating and dirt. You already mentioned dirty tyres in your original post so I didn't think it was necessary to highlight it again.

Not sure what you mean by "unclear what is simulated"?
You go off on dirt/gravel > tyres get "dirty" > grip reduced > drive few corners > tyres get "cleaned" > grip returns normal.
Am I missing something?

In a long slide/spin you DO ruin your tyres. Your red bar goes down a lot quicker than just by normal wear. Naturally, because you have less grip, you slide more, you wear your tyres more and the vicious circle continues. But you don't "damage" your tyre physically like in real life with flatspots/graining/blistering/tearing chunks of rubber off.

Flash overheat is just as it says. If you do a burnout standing start, or if you lock up with ABS off, you'll see a red box around the tyre indicator. Usually only lasts 1-2 seconds and then back to normal temp. If you do it often it quickens the wear, but the overheating itself doesn't last long.

If you compare to what ACC does with their tyre model, it's like comparing grade school maths with rocket science. Remember PD still cannot get ride height and aero correct even after all these years, let alone something as complex as tyres that even pro F1 teams struggle to simulate consistently with their multi million dollar supercomputers.

 

[breeminator]

Interesting observation with the track limits. Will check Bathurst next time. I don't think, however, that the graphics (dust cloud) is a good indication of what's going on. On Interlagos (Race C), you have one or two wheels on the dirt all the time and they are unaffected. But if you run really wide in T4 on the green pavement, the grip drops dramatically. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but this is not a rant, I just want to know what is.
It seems to me like there is never a point where only the right/left side is affected, despite this being the most common. They probably left that out because it's undriveable.

I agree, dirty tyres is all or nothing, you don't get e.g. 10% dirty tyres by part of one tyre going onto a dirty surface. There seem to be invisible lines where if the car completely crosses the line, it then has dirty tyres. As far as I can tell, you just have to learn where they are by trial and error, noticing the lack of grip after driving in certain places. This is another area where aliens do better - the same greater ability to discern small differences in the car's behaviour that makes them faster also makes them better at knowing when they have dirty tyres, so they very quickly learn where all these places are.

 

[Pigems]

I agree, dirty tyres is all or nothing, you don't get e.g. 10% dirty tyres by part of one tyre going onto a dirty surface. There seem to be invisible lines where if the car completely crosses the line, it then has dirty tyres. As far as I can tell, you just have to learn where they are by trial and error, noticing the lack of grip after driving in certain places. This is another area where aliens do better - the same greater ability to discern small differences in the car's behaviour that makes them faster also makes them better at knowing when they have dirty tyres, so they very quickly learn where all these places are.

I believe you have to get the 4th wheel off for dirty tires to take effect, 2 wheels won’t do it, I’m not sure about 3, but put the 4th off and you’ll definitely have dirty tires for the next few corners.

 

[DoctorNuu]

Not sure what you mean by "unclear what is simulated"?
You go off on dirt/gravel > tyres get "dirty" > grip reduced > drive few corners > tyres get "cleaned" > grip returns normal.
Am I missing something?

The question is how tires getting clean is actually "implemented".
It looks like a very simple scripted process to me that e.g. the dirt always lasts exactly for 2km and the effect is reduced in a linear way.
In "the real world", the effect would not be that simple and it would take quite a while for the last 1% of grip to return.
They seem 100% clean after that, but I'm not sure.
Also unclear if cornering/weaving actually helps the process or not.

Similar thing for the overheat. Looks like 5 seconds and back to normal.

I believe you have to get the 4th wheel off for dirty tires to take effect, 2 wheels won’t do it, I’m not sure about 3, but put the 4th off and you’ll definitely have dirty tires for the next few corners.

That's the disappointing thing. Depends on the invisible track limits and has nothing to do with what the graphics or common sense would tell you.
90% of times tires stay just pristine, despite obviously 'touching something dirty'.

I agree, dirty tyres is all or nothing, you don't get e.g. 10% dirty tyres by part of one tyre going onto a dirty surface. There seem to be invisible lines where if the car completely crosses the line, it then has dirty tyres. As far as I can tell, you just have to learn where they are by trial and error, noticing the lack of grip after driving in certain places. This is another area where aliens do better - the same greater ability to discern small differences in the car's behaviour that makes them faster also makes them better at knowing when they have dirty tyres, so they very quickly learn where all these places are.

It's not so hard if the dirt effect is really only on/off.
If there would be a (small) effect of dirt by touching the grass or even the kerb it would explain that aliens are better because they know about it.
I have failed to notice any such effects, but it could be just that I'm not 'sensitive' enough.

I am, in general, looking for 'insider knowledge' that limits you a lot when you don't know about it.

 

[breeminator]

It's not so hard if the dirt effect is really only on/off.
If there would be a (small) effect of dirt by touching the grass or even the kerb it would explain that aliens are better because they know about it.
I have failed to notice any such effects, but it could be just that I'm not 'sensitive' enough.

I am, in general, looking for 'insider knowledge' that limits you a lot when you don't know about it.

I'm not sure it's on/off, what I meant by all or nothing is the initiation of it. It might decrease linearly from there in some way, so it's still hard to notice it if you have a reasonable length straight afterwards. This is one of the few occasions it has been obvious to me, the dirty tyres after cutting across the grass are very noticeable and make it very hard to pull this off, which I think is why they've got away with not fixing it (I'm not sure if it has been fixed yet or not?!).

 

[DoctorNuu]

On/off was, of course, referring to the initial getting dirty.
One should expect differences between going over a clean runoff area vs. grass vs sand.
But is seems like they just have clean vs. max dirty.

I would love to have effects of only 1 or 2 dirty tires in races, on touching the grass/dirt,
that would reward (my) cleaner and more cautious style.

 

[KosmoKazi]

Just guessing based in my own observations but I believe that tires are cold at the start of a race, but seem to benefit from tire warmers when changed in race. Can’t be sure but the effect seems worse at the start of races than when changing tires mid race.

also, F1 is definitely not the only series to use tire warming blankets. I think it’s relatively prevalent in many series across Motorsport.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

The question is how tires getting clean is actually "implemented".
It looks like a very simple scripted process to me that e.g. the dirt always lasts exactly for 2km and the effect is reduced in a linear way.
In "the real world", the effect would not be that simple and it would take quite a while for the last 1% of grip to return.
They seem 100% clean after that, but I'm not sure.
Also unclear if cornering/weaving actually helps the process or not.

Similar thing for the overheat. Looks like 5 seconds and back to normal.


That's the disappointing thing. Depends on the invisible track limits and has nothing to do with what the graphics or common sense would tell you.
90% of times tires stay just pristine, despite obviously 'touching something dirty'.



It's not so hard if the dirt effect is really only on/off.
If there would be a (small) effect of dirt by touching the grass or even the kerb it would explain that aliens are better because they know about it.
I have failed to notice any such effects, but it could be just that I'm not 'sensitive' enough.

I am, in general, looking for 'insider knowledge' that limits you a lot when you don't know about it.

Well from my experience it is a very simple scripted simulation. Like I said all the way back in my first post, I think you're overthinking this. PD doesn't even care enough to include tyre pressure simulations, I don't think they care about having graded dirty tyre effects.

At the end of the day, if you mess up and run off course, your race is probably already ruined anyway. Just drive carefully for 2-3 corners and when you feel the grip return, you can drive again normally. It doesn't matter what number crunching is done by the CPU, after all in real life when drivers race I don't think they are doing physics calculations in their head either

With 2 tyres off track, the dirty effect is definitely noticeably less. Like yesterday Manu at Interlagos, you can cut the first right hander infield hairpin quite alot, putting both inside wheels on grass. There's a tight left hander after, so if you lose grip on outside tyre you will notice it. I sometimes cut the grass, sometimes don't and I don't notice any difference in grip in the left hander.

Final word, you're not gonna find "insider knowledge" on these forums. Maybe in 10 years time, when GTS has been decommissioned and people have had the chance to hack the game files like GT5 we'll know for sure.

If you want to find performance, focus on technique than trying to find the magical formula for tyres.

Just guessing based in my own observations but I believe that tires are cold at the start of a race, but seem to benefit from tire warmers when changed in race. Can’t be sure but the effect seems worse at the start of races than when changing tires mid race.

also, F1 is definitely not the only series to use tire warming blankets. I think it’s relatively prevalent in many series across Motorsport.

That's because of the prolonged driver intro at the start of the race. The tyres start at "room" temp, but you just sit on the grid for ages and the tyres become cold.

When changing in pits, the tyres start at "room" temp then you immediately go out on track to warm it up. It has less grip but lasts a lot shorter than at the start of a race.

If you want to simulate this, go to online lobby free run. Drive out of pits, note the grip. Restart but this time sit on track for 1 minute after you drive out of pits, and compare the grip.

 

[breeminator]

If you want a place to experiment, I've seen it claimed that going wide in the place labelled 7 here will give you dirty tyres:

You can run wide there, getting the car fully past the red and white kerb, without getting a penalty. Lacking an alien ability to discern small differences, though, I am unable to tell any difference in the car's behaviour when I brake for 10.

 

[Lion-Face]

My thoughts...

A. Temperature

Known facts:
1. Besides the obvious red outline when overcooking and light blue when standing around, there is no way of knowing the temperature.
-I don't believe the red outline indicates tire temp, I believe it is indicating grip being exceeded on that tire or tires.
2. On start/pit-stop, the tires are colder at first.

Questions:
1. Does weaving really do anything to shorten the cold phase? Does it depend on Tire wear setting? Obviously does IRL, but is it simulated at all?
-It does appear to.
2. Are there other effects of the hidden temperature? Obviously over/under-driving IRL would lead to hotter/colder tires and different grip levels.
-Don't believe so.
3. Are there any lasting effects of overcooking them (flashing red) by a small slide?
-Just the ongoing damage done to the tires by overcooking them.
4. A really bad slide seems to have a lasting effect. Is it forever? There seems to be no flat spot, but definitely some hidden degradation.
-I don't believe it is hidden, you can see the tires being eaten by doing bad slides in real time on the tire grip meter.
​

B. Dirt

Known facts:
1. When leaving the track, tires get dirty.
- When leaving with all 4 tires. 2 or 3 tires don't appear to change grip level, only punished for all 4 tires.
2. There are no other ways to get them dirty.
3. The marbles don't do anything, there are no clean and dirty parts of the track.
-There certainly is. Provided track grip is set to 'real' which it is for daily race c and FIA events. There is reduced grip off the racing line, on curbs and then further reduced off the track, with tarmac, painted areas then grass going from the most off track grip to the least.

I tested this years ago at both Monza and Dragon trail seaside. Monza turn 1 has a number of white lines across the track leading to the first corner. You can brake both on the racing line and off the racing line. Do it in time trial so you create a ghost. You will see, braking at the same white line, off the racing line you will slide past your ghost which stops earlier on the racing line. Hold the ghost on brakes for a while so you can compare.

Dragon trail has large curbs and often used as part of the racing line through corners. You can really feel the difference with your braking points both on and off the curbs. Also very noticeable at turn 1 at Red Bull Ring. You will often see the fastest drivers use the curbs to their advantage, even though they provide less grip, the wider line into the corner afforded by being on the curbs outweighs the grip disadvantage. Also gives the car a little more slip which can aid turn in.

Questions:
1. Does weaving help to clean them? If not ,why bother.
-I believe it takes a few corners to clean them up proper, so weaving should reduce the time to clean, but have not tested.
2. Is the effect really gone after about one lap or is it just reduced? Important to know for pit strategy.
-Just a few corners, most of the time 1 or 2 corners.
3. When does the effect happen exactly? IRL dipping two wheels on the dirt/grass already has a big effect.
-I've only noticed a significant effect with 4 wheels off, so if I am running wide, I try to limit the damage by keeping at least one tire on the road/curb. This then doesn't change my braking point next corner provided I kept 1 tire on the track.
3. Does this depend on the strangely named "off-track grip reduction" setting?
-Yes, with it set to standard (or not the 'real' setting, whatever it's called) then this for the most part has no effect. Or significantly reduced to the point I haven't noticed it.
4. Are there other effects?
​

 

[vvise]

Tire temperatures aren't Hot/Normal/Cold. I've thought about this a lot. I'm pretty confident there is a simulated tire temperature range here and the GUI just doesn't do a good job to show you. If you're ever in a lobby and suddenly keep running deep it's because you're consistently over-driving the car and the tires are not in optimal condition. It causes you to constantly run a little deep, brake harder, heat the tires more, and repeat. Usually people think this is some kind of grip bug, you see threads about it all the time.

When you reset the tires start colder by default and take some time to get back up to optimal. Softs are good to go in a few corners to 1/4 lap, meds about 1/2 lap, hards can take up to a full lap. Myself and all of my teammates are consistently faster on the 2nd lap on a hard set of tires, try it yourself.

At the start of an FIA race when the cars sit on grid while the camera shows all the names the tires are sitting there getting cooler. Sometimes you can even see a faint blue outline when the race starts. Weaving 100% puts heat into the tires. Anything that generates noise from the tires is heating them.

The marbles on the track definitely have reduced grip, not as severe as dirt from going off track. The easiest way to test this is the braking zone for the first chicane at Mulsanne. If you are too far to the left the track is dirty you can easily see the effect. A lot of drivers take the widest line on entry without realizing it greatly reduces your braking ability.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I tested this years ago at both Monza and Dragon trail seaside. Monza turn 1 has a number of white lines across the track leading to the first corner. You can brake both on the racing line and off the racing line. Do it in time trial so you create a ghost. You will see, braking at the same white line, off the racing line you will slide past your ghost which stops earlier on the racing line. Hold the ghost on brakes for a while so you can compare.

Dragon trail has large curbs and often used as part of the racing line through corners. You can really feel the difference with your braking points both on and off the curbs. Also very noticeable at turn 1 at Red Bull Ring. You will often see the fastest drivers use the curbs to their advantage, even though they provide less grip, the wider line into the corner afforded by being on the curbs outweighs the grip disadvantage. Also gives the car a little more slip which can aid turn in.​

I noticed some parts of the track are definitely less grippy than the racing line, and this effect is also more pronounced on the real life circuits. At Tokyo for example there's little difference between braking on racing line and off it, because I assume it's a street circuit and the track condition is always "green" and there is no track evolution in GTS.

I would contest the claim that it's "marble" simulation though. Seems to me it's just the way the track is programmed if Grip Reduction is set to Real. A real marbling effect (e.g. see Automobilista/ACC) reduces grip that lasts for a bit longer even after you've moved back to the racing line. Similar to the dirty tyre effect when going into grass/gravel in GTS. Whereas if you brake off line at Monza, by the next corner you're already back to optimum grip. So it's not a "tyre variable" per se, but a track variable.

It's also a bit annoying to me that we don't have wet lines in GTS despite the physics allowing for different track grips, but that's discussion for another thread.

Tire temperatures aren't Hot/Normal/Cold. I've thought about this a lot. I'm pretty confident there is a simulated tire temperature range here and the GUI just doesn't do a good job to show you. If you're ever in a lobby and suddenly keep running deep it's because you're consistently over-driving the car and the tires are not in optimal condition. It causes you to constantly run a little deep, brake harder, heat the tires more, and repeat. Usually people think this is some kind of grip bug, you see threads about it all the time.

When you reset the tires start colder by default and take some time to get back up to optimal. Softs are good to go in a few corners to 1/4 lap, meds about 1/2 lap, hards can take up to a full lap. Myself and all of my teammates are consistently faster on the 2nd lap on a hard set of tires, try it yourself.

At the start of an FIA race when the cars sit on grid while the camera shows all the names the tires are sitting there getting cooler. Sometimes you can even see a faint blue outline when the race starts. Weaving 100% puts heat into the tires. Anything that generates noise from the tires is heating them.

The marbles on the track definitely have reduced grip, not as severe as dirt from going off track. The easiest way to test this is the braking zone for the first chicane at Mulsanne. If you are too far to the left the track is dirty you can easily see the effect. A lot of drivers take the widest line on entry without realizing it greatly reduces your braking ability.

Interesting observation there about overheating the tyre and losing grip. I can't say I ever noticed that when tyre wear is off. Though that could be my driving style not generating enough heat to tip it over that point. The only time I noticed overheating lasting longer than a few secs is if I purposely do repeated donuts/burnouts for many seconds, but obviously not in a racing situation.

I didn't say weaving didn't put heat into the tyres btw. Of course it does, but I just don't find it heats up the tyre enough for me to have "normal" grip levels by the first corner. On the other hand, there's a high chance you can miss your brake points and/or aggravate the guy behind you if you weave too much.

See my reply to Lion-Face's post above regarding marbles.

 

[Ryan Sandall]

Tbh I think the tyre model is pretty good in gtsport, user friendly and understandable

You get a lot of feel admittedly mostly can be put to tyre screech but it's good to learn all the basics

The outlines are for sure hot and cold on the graphic,
If you do donuts then send it into turn 1 you gotta watch the rear, if it's rwd obviously aha

Off the racing line I'm almost certain provides less grip it can be higher or lower difference depending on circuit and how off line

Also off track whether it's grass or tarmac with discarded rubber it doesn't matter if it has a similar affect because you shouldnt be out there anyways so accept your punishment haha

I will say though you can be fooled by panic braking into thinking you had less grip on the inside, I feel braking technique is a really underestimated aspect of driving in this game, something I'm still finding catching me out annoyingly, I find smoother braking works so much better than stamping on them


However the only thing I'm not a fan of is the wet is useless cos in GT6 you had wet lines and that was awesome and dynamic weather
Tip toeing over dry lines getting round spa on slicks after a sudden down pour was so cool

 

[breeminator]

If you want a place to experiment, I've seen it claimed that going wide in the place labelled 7 here will give you dirty tyres:

You can run wide there, getting the car fully past the red and white kerb, without getting a penalty. Lacking an alien ability to discern small differences, though, I am unable to tell any difference in the car's behaviour when I brake for 10.

After driving more laps, where I ran wide there by accident maybe 5 times out of 100 laps, I've changed my mind, I can tell the difference in braking distance at corner 10. I paid particularly careful attention to being sure to brake in the same place, and I'd say my braking distance was extended by around 1 car length after running wide at 7.

 

[RussRobit]

I think the tire model is more advanced than people think, just try the supra cup. It uses sh tires but I've noticed that any overbraking, understeering or general abuse really effects grip levels and I find myself having to wait for the tires to normalize. Even too much rear brake bias on entry effects your ability to put the power down on exit.

 

[DoctorNuu]

I think the tire model is more advanced than people think, just try the supra cup. It uses sh tires but I've noticed that any overbraking, understeering or general abuse really effects grip levels and I find myself having to wait for the tires to normalize. Even too much rear brake bias on entry effects your ability to put the power down on exit.

It's so hard to say, for an average inconsistent driver like me, if this is a real effect or just in my mind.
Are you referring to tire wear on or off?

For example I also have the feeling that the SH tire needs a while to get to max performance.
Of course this is obvious in races with tire wear on - where it very obviously has less grip, although the "temperature" is hidden from us.
But I also suspected small differences in quali to Race A with no tire wear. Lap 4-5 was always a little better.

 

[RussRobit]

It's so hard to say, for an average inconsistent driver like me, if this is a real effect or just in my mind.
Are you referring to tire wear on or off?

For example I also have the feeling that the SH tire needs a while to get to max performance.
Of course this is obvious in races with tire wear on - where it very obviously has less grip, although the "temperature" is hidden from us.
But I also suspected small differences in quali to Race A with no tire wear. Lap 4-5 was always a little better.

I was referring to tire wear off in free practice mode but I feel the same thing with tire wear on, albeit a little more exaggerated as they wear. I think I feel a difference between qually and race also, but it's small and may just be the pressure of racing over practice. As far as better laps later in A races, it may be that you've found your groove and are running smoother laps which puts less stress on the tires keeping them in an optimal temp range. I know the fastest drivers are always way smoother than I am and they always seem to have that little bit more grip, tire wear on or off.