Highcroft's Deltawing *Update: granted ALMS 2013 full entry! *

  • Thread starter Hun200kmh
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I think the Delta Wing replacing the FLM09 isn't really a great idea... We've already shown that this car really doesnt do so well on track with full size LMP Cars running around.

Now, Imagine the Delta Wing going sideways, spinning and then stopping around a blind turn, and then getting hammered by a GT car. The weight difference alone would move the delta wing quite quickly. I can't imagine that being safe.

And then throw in the added challenge of drivers who have only experienced GT cars, or a Prototype Light car, being sat down in, what i can only imagine, is a Formula-Type car. Thats a third set of lines/braking points to keep track of in traffic. I can see the LMP1 guys getting a bit peeved by that...

Great Idea? Yes. In fact, this SHOULD have been the new Indy car. Indy would no longer be confused with F1 in North America.

Replace the FLM09? No. The LMPC class is designed for Pro-Am drivers to get their feet wet for prototype racing, and I can only assume that this doesnt really drive anything like a prototype.
 
Except that LMP2 is the Pro-Am class so there is no point to FLM09 at all.

I see no reason whatsoever why the Delta couldn't replace it as a new class.

It is a fundamentally more efficient design. That is what endurance racing is about.
 
And while the DeltaWing was a little of the pace at Le Mans, that can always change with a little extra development - but that development won't come without a future for the car having been decided first.
 
daan

Deltawing by GTRdaan, on Flickr
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Excuse me from quoting myself, but I've just noticed you can see the rear brakes glowing but not the fronts. Good example of how all the weight is at the back and the front wheels (same size as a 2CV's wheels apparently) are just there to keep the nose from dragging along the ground.
 
niky
This actually describes the spread of the whole field at LeMans... GT-cars and LMP cars really don't mix well because braking points and racing lines are different due to the different levels of downforce and weight... but the drivers are expected to deal with it, anyway.
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Yes i know, but bare in mind , the different classes that race at Le Mans, have been doing so for years.. they've had time to adapt, by letting the DW compete at Le Mans (on it's own again), just simply would add even more considerations from the competing drivers. I'm not saying it's impossible to deal with, but i wasn't in the least bit surprised to see the DW getting bunxed off the track.

I do think it's own series would be pretty cool, but i'm not so sure the DW is such a revolutionary design, as what some people are to making it out to be...
I think i'm kind of in agreement with Ardius, in thinking it would be interesting to see the traditional format (or rectangle if you like), adopting more shaving of the weight (not revolutionary), little to no wing but ground effects (again, not revolutionary), and using a small displacement turbo unit (yet again, not revolutionary).

The only thing that comes remotely close to being revolutionary about the DW design, is the narrow gauge front wheels, which really isn't too dissimilar to some of the F1 cars of the 70's, i mean look at the different wheel gauge of the Tyrrell p34 (yes i know it has 6 wheels, so therefore slightly different), you can even look at typical racing Porsches of the past (Moby Dick etc)... all the DW does is push that theory to the extreme, so not really revolutionary.. more evolution if anything, and i'm sure we've all seen similar land speed record Delta-Wing cars before as well (albeit minus 1 wheel and the inability to take a turn properly).

Like i say, it would be interesting to see a typical LMP2 car adopt all the characteristics of the DW minus the DW shape and then compare the 2.
Yes the DW would cut through the air more efficiently (slightly quicker in a straight line), thus saving a bit more fuel and maybe a bit of tyre wear, but i'd put money on the adapted LMP2 being a damn sight lot quicker under braking possibly giving it more speed through the bends, i also imagine it would have a more considerate and efficient racing line compared to the DW, so i think they'd probably balance out quite evenly... except the LMP2 would probably be (overall) a much safer design.

I do like the DW, and was glad to see it compete at Le mans this year because it has opened eyes to the possibilities, but would like to see other teams just take certain elements from it's design, rather than adopt the full-on Delta-Wing shape.
 
Excuse me, you are not arguing that you can do the same thing with an LMP car?

Ardius
But the point you are missing here and it seems everyone seems to quickly forget, is that none of this is unique to its design.

You can put that Juke engine in a "normal" LMP design.
You can put ground effects on a "normal" LMP design.
You can save a shed load of weight on a "normal" LMP design.
etc etc

I believe you can make the same car do the same things without having to resort to the Reliant Robin concept.
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Perhaps I did read it wrong, but it sounds to me that is exactly what you are arguing above. Do you think you know more than the designers of the DW? If that were possible why did they take such a radical approach instead of using a "normal" LMP design? I will tell you why, because it will not work. The general shape (plan form) of the LMP creates too much drag, even with unregulated ground effects it would still need wings (smaller yes) which would create even more drag. With all this excess drag over the DW design you could not obtain the speed with the smaller engine nor the efficiency and *poof* there goes your proof of concept. It just won't work and that is the point you just do not get, the concepts put forth are indeed unique to the design of the car.
Try this: google search "land speed record cars". Notice anything, kind of similar to something we have been discussing here? The plan form of nearly everyone of these cars is in general a triangle. Same for high speed aircraft, either triangular or variable geometry so the wings can sweep back to form a triangle at speed. There is a reason for this, the same reasons the DW designers chose this same plan form...it works.
Plenty of people, myself included have given you lots of info on this car and the design considerations and concepts. There is plenty for you to read and study if you choose to do so, or you can continue to disagree with everyone here using only your opinions to back your case, that is up to you. I do not have the time or inclination to teach you everything I have learned in nearly 30 years as an engineer.
I am done here, much to the relief of probably many of you. My apologies to all if my participation has in any way, shape or form (pun intended) derailed this thread.
 
The problem with making an entire series for the DeltaWing is that then it isn't comparing itself to anything else, and the revolutionary concepts for its existence are mostly squandered.

I suppose there's still something to be said for making a customer car series, but that sort of relegates any importance towards improving the breed, if you will.
 
MustangManiac
Excuse me, you are not arguing that you can do the same thing with an LMP car?



Perhaps I did read it wrong, but it sounds to me that is exactly what you are arguing above. Do you think you know more than the designers of the DW? If that were possible why did they take such a radical approach instead of using a "normal" LMP design? I will tell you why, because it will not work. The general shape (plan form) of the LMP creates too much drag, even with unregulated ground effects it would still need wings (smaller yes) which would create even more drag. With all this excess drag over the DW design you could not obtain the speed with the smaller engine nor the efficiency and *poof* there goes your proof of concept. It just won't work and that is the point you just do not get, the concepts put forth are indeed unique to the design of the car.
Try this: google search "land speed record cars". Notice anything, kind of similar to something we have been discussing here? The plan form of nearly everyone of these cars is in general a triangle. Same for high speed aircraft, either triangular or variable geometry so the wings can sweep back to form a triangle at speed. There is a reason for this, the same reasons the DW designers chose this same plan form...it works.
Plenty of people, myself included have given you lots of info on this car and the design considerations and concepts. There is plenty for you to read and study if you choose to do so, or you can continue to disagree with everyone here using only your opinions to back your case, that is up to you. I do not have the time or inclination to teach you everything I have learned in nearly 30 years as an engineer.
I am done here, much to the relief of probably many of you. My apologies to all if my participation has in any way, shape or form (pun intended) derailed this thread.
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I'm sorry but you really did not give me any information at all. This is the first post you have decided to actually expand on your comments.
No one else gave me "plenty to read" either.

The examples you mention (barring aircraft which have different physics involved) - these are vehicles which are top-speed only, not for cornering.
An LMP car is designed more for turning than top speed. The idea is that the DeltaWing would generate its turning (mostly rear-biased) though its shape without having to rely on wings - that it would generate enough grip to only need the ground effects.

I would like to actually see the comparison on track before I would believe the DeltaWing's shape overcomes the lack of wings. I still think a similar specced-LMP car would be able to generate similar or better grip in the corners.

This is not me stating it as a fact, its me stating what I believe. No need to get angry and aggressive about it. The points I made earlier still stand - the comparisons currently being made are with LMP cars which do not even match the specs of a DeltaWing (or vice versa). So for people like me, how is this a fair comparison?

I'd like to see DeltaWing's concept proved in a fair comparison.

And no, I did not say "plump the DW engine in a LMP2 and it will beat it". An LMP2 cannot use ground effects to the same extent, etc. What we are talking about is no longer an LMP2 car is it?

I ask for information to help me believe. You seem to think I refuse to believe. This is not the case, I'm only explaining why I do not believe and responding and discussing it. I'm perfectly happy for you to respond to my posts and explain why I'm wrong or thinking the wrong way about it or to provide me proof of things I perhaps don't understand so well.
 
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A great "debrief" on the DeltaWing Le Mans odissey. A bit long, but definitely worth a read.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2012/the_way_it_is_no342.html


I read everywhere that the DeltaWIng will race again at Petit Le Mans. Don Panoz working on it. If it happens (and I think it will) it's a fantastic way to keep PLM relevant (as it entirely deserves) after the WEC calendar fiasco of not only leaving it out but also putting another race in that same weekend.
 
Hun200kmh
it's a fantastic way to keep PLM relevant (as it entirely deserves) after the WEC calendar fiasco of not only leaving it out but also putting another race in that same weekend.
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You do realise that was done for a reason, right?

The FIA clearly didn't want its fledgling new series competing against ALMS on-track. One glance at the WEC calendar should tell you all you need to know: one race per country, and no more than two races per market (Le Mans being the exception to this rule). Given the nature of endurance racing, a worldwide calendar is never going to have a lot of races on it. The FIA evidently felt that having races on (almost) every continent was more important than giving America two races (especially considering that the WEC is a European series). Petit Le Mans was kept off the WEC calendar so as not to threaten the WEC's future.

So it's hardly a "fiasco".
 
Sorry to reply with such "lateness" but I came here to post something else and noticed your reply (can't understand how I missed it when it was posted).

Making it short, Endurance Events never were much regarded as part of a championship, but they became relevant (or kept being irrelevant) on their own.

That's why Le Mans is Le Mans with or without the FIA. That's why Sebring is Sebring with or without the FIA. That's why the Nurburgring 24 is what is is with or without the FIA.

And that's why Petit Le Mans - regardless of its youth, just a baby being first run in 1998 - is what it is with or without the FIA. It has gained worldwide relevance, it has its own character (much like Sebring, le Mans or Nurb24) and it is a shame to see it off the World Endurance Championship Calendar.

It's the WEC's loss however. Let'em go to Bahrain in a calendar clash with PLM.


***

Now back to the topic at hand. Ever since Le Mans it almost seems the DW didn't exist. Highcroft's site froze; Deltawing's site froze; Nissan's site doesn't mention it.

And I found this very intriguing piece. Worth a read. The intriguing part is at the end of it.

DeltaWing: Where to from here? By: Steve Cole Smith on July 3, 2012


Apparently, everyone but Don Panoz have "moved on" ...
 
Earth
Delta Wing wants to new car of Indycar feeder series

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-deltawing-submits-2014-indy-lights-proposal/
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Back to my original argument...


Does it drive at all like an Indy car? No. Then why have it as the feeder series car? I thought the point of a feeder series was to hone in the skills, without all of the speed.

A GP2 Car/FR3.5 handles (Mostly) the same as an F1 car.
A Nationwide Stock Car handles (Mostly) the same as a Sprint Cup Car
A FLM09 handles EXACTLY like an LMP1/2 car.
GTC cars handle like GTE cars.
Continental Sports cars handle a lot like GT-Class cars.

The Deltawing frame/weight distribution/Downforce is NOTHING like an Indy car.
 
Indycar's feeder series are just fine the way they are now. There's Star Mazda, USF2000, and Indy Lights Pro Series. Edit: I should say that the cars are fine the way they are. Maybe a slight update but nothing being turned into Deltawings.

I don't see how the Deltawing would fit into that line of progression. The Deltawing itself is in no man's land when it comes to racing series. There's nothing it fits into properly and no one is going to create a series specifically for it and if they did, it wouldn't last very long.

It was a good experiment in real world racing, now it's time for it to go into racing sims where it could most likely be utilized better.
 
This just after Indycar has been talking about how the Indy Lights car isn't relevant anymore.

I guess the morons didn't really read Lola's proposal then (which was to supply an Indycar which also worked as an Indy Lights car - making it cheaper for Indy Lights teams to make the step up to Indycar and also make Indy Lights more relevant for the drivers).

This almost sounds like a desperate move by DeltaWing to try and get their shoe in on Indycar despite the Dallara being in there already.

Unsurprisingly again it seems like there are too many parties involved in the US Open Wheel community for the best decision to be made. If it isn't teams or the series organizers arguing, its the suppliers or the engines or the circuits...too many vested interests with no distinct head that has any real power.
 
I sure hope it does race. And that no idiots take it out before it's completed at least five hours.
 
Ardius
But the point you are missing here and it seems everyone seems to quickly forget, is that none of this is unique to its design.
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There are some aspects of the Deltawing which can be unique with respect to LMPs. For example, it has lower frictional drag simply because of the lower surface area of the design. Sure, you could reduce the weight and the frictional drag of an LMP car, but it wouldn't quite achieve the same figures as is possible with the deltawing concept. The inherent design of the car is lighter, with a lower surface area of bodywork.

You also have to take into consideration that the car has better rear end stability. All the negative talk about having the front track being so small turned out to be without merit. It was actually beneficial because not only did it not affect the car's handling capability, it greatly improved rear end stability which made the car easier to drive.

We have to be realistic, scale is a strange thing. The scale of the cars we have is in relation to the track and the driver (i.e. as long as the driver fits in it and the car isn't too big that it blocks the whole track, it's good). All the Deltawing proved was that the same performance could be achieved more efficiently by reducing the scale of the car. You could go some way to mimic the deltawing with a classis LMP layout, but we will probably never truly know how they compare unless the regulations are significantly relaxed.

Remember, the Deltawing was done on a relatively small budget within a small time frame. Imagine how good it could be with significant funding and years of development from competing teams. I firmly believe that the Deltawing concept as a whole is a better design.
 
I expected this, but didn't expect that driver lineup.

And I wish them luck, if the DeltaWing laps at LMP2 pace at a track like Road Atlanta then I guess all doubts about the efficiency of its architecture will be over.



PS - It also seems that the Delta Wing will have a future in the 2014 ALMS/Grand Am series, but - apart from Don Panoz mentioning it - nothing can be found about it.


EDIT - http://deltawing.squarespace.com/ne...race-at-petit-le-mans.html?SSScrollPosition=0


ALMS in 2013?
 
Hun200kmh
I expected this, but didn't expect that driver lineup.

And I wish them luck, if the DeltaWing laps at LMP2 pace at a track like Road Atlanta then I guess all doubts about the efficiency of its architecture will be over.

ALMS in 2013?
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i thought at le mans it was lapping at the pace of top lmp2 teams?
 
Low LMP2 pace is pretty good for a completely brand new chassis still undergoing development, with half the displacement of the LMP2s.
 
Hun200kmh
ALMS in 2013?
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Looks like it.

Autosport
DeltaWing cleared to race in American Le Mans Series from 2013
By Gary Watkins Monday, September 17th 2012, 19:21 GMT

The revolutionary DeltaWing sportscar that raced at this year's Le Mans 24 Hours has been cleared to compete in next year's American Le Mans Series and the new championship that will result from the merger of the ALMS and Grand-Am in 2014.

The announcement on the future of the DeltaWing-Nissan DW, which achieves LMP2 levels of performance using only half the fuel, came at the same time that it was confirmed that the car would compete in the Petit Le Mans 1000-mile enduro at Road Atlanta, the final round of this year's ALMS.

ALMS boss Don Panoz, who was a managing partner in the Project 56 team that fielded the DeltaWing at Le Mans, said: "The DeltaWing can race in the 2013 ALMS and it is part of the merger agreement for ALMS and Grand-Am.

"Safety and performance standards have to be achieved, but it needs to be reviewed. For 2014, the new series would incorporate Daytona prototypes, Le Mans prototypes, and maybe even a DeltaWing."

Panoz has stated that he intends to build a production run of DeltaWings to compete in the ALMS next season. He aims to have the first production DeltaWing, developed around a new monocoque, up and running in time for next year's Sebring 12 Hours ALMS opener.

The DeltaWing will be driven at Petit by inaugural PlayStation GT Academy winner Lucas Ordonez and former Panoz works driver Gunnar Jeannette. None of the car's drivers from Le Mans, Michael Krumm, Marino Franchitti and Satoshi Motoyama, were available for Petit on October 20.
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So lets add a THIRD totally different style of car to the 2014 Prototype scene.... Weren't they aiming for ease of class recognition?

Potential Sports car fan walks in "Hey, what kind of racing is this?"
"Oh! Its so sick! Ok, so theres these Le Mans prototypes, and they're like high-tech. These ones have to have production engines."
"What about those? Hey, that looks like a Corvette!"
"Oh no, you see, thats a Daytona prototype, it's like a really heavy and more ugly LMP car. But it's just as fast. But dont confuse that with the actual Corvettes. Theres 2 kinds of those too, the GTE and the GT3. The GTE is like paid for by Chevy, they've won Le Mans like hecka times. And then that red and white one is a GT3 car, like the others but slower."
"So theres 3 different kinds of Corvette?"
"Yeah, but they're all really different. Ok, you follow?"
"I guess..."
"Then theres this OTHER dart-shaped thing, its called a Delta Wing. It was the new idea for an Indy Car..."
"Oh, like with Michael Schumacher?"
"No. Thats F1..."
"Oh, continue!"
"Anyways, it was going to be the new Indy Car, but instead they had to use it as a new type of Le Mans car. So it races too."


As if the Grand-Am merger wont be hard enough, they want to throw in ANOTHER class which has no support program, and thus, will have a ton of incidents based on people not knowing how to drive them? Brilliant.
 
hawkeye122
So lets add a THIRD totally different style of car to the 2014 Prototype scene.... Weren't they aiming for ease of class recognition?
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Nissan-DeltaWing-1.jpg

s1_1.jpg

michael-shank-racing-no-60.jpg


Easier to tell these apart than the LMP1/2/C classes.
 

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