HKS CT230R Tuner or Racer?

  • Thread starter Thread starter GYMKHANA_RYAN4
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Tuner or Racer?

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    319
Why should there be any confusion? A Time Attack is a Time Trial.

The Schwimmwagen is a wheeled boat.

Responding to doctorgg, the CT230R, as I understand it, is specifically built as a track-use only time attack vehicle... like many time attack vehicles are now. There was a time when there was still a pretense of time attack vehicles being street-legal "tuner" cars... but now, many are bespoke, with many bits of go-fast and aero kit that you can't use on the street, and with suspensions and structures almost completely redesigned from the original vehicle... with many custom-fabricated parts and one-offs which change suspension geometries completely and make passing emissions an impossible dream.

This makes them about as far removed from the base production units as many race cars... and again, sometimes even further removed than that.
 
Villain
ON-TOPIC EDIT:


No, we understand you.
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I'm glad.

We just think that you're wrong.
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Hmm, ok.

You seem to think that it can't be that you're wrong
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I think you've missed my point. It's not about me thinking that I can't be wrong, it's about me considering a "race" to be an official race event. A time attack I do not consider to be an official race event, nor have I seen any racing authority who does. That's what's at the heart of my understanding of "race". I have not come across a time attack being classified as an official race event. If you want to show me I'm wrong, all you need to do is give me a link that shows that a time attack is classified as an official race event (well, we're talking about the HKS CT230R, so I guess it's clear what I'm asking for). That really is all it takes to convince me. And no, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I really don't care what people think, I only care about what they're trying to convince me of. And all it takes is one link, not a bunch of arguments which really talk about something else.

As said, based on your understanding of "race", the HKS CT230R is a race car.

And if I were to learn that a time attack (well, within the given context) is considered a race event by a racing authority, I'd have been convinced of me having been wrong. You see? I don't at all think I can't be wrong.

and we're all just confused at what you're really trying to say.
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This really puzzles me. I actually thought I was quite clear.

So, here's your chance. Put out your points in a bullet-point fashion.
  • Tell us
  • Excactly
  • What you
  • Are trying to say.
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Well, let's do it in baby steps, so it's not getting too complicated.

Step One

Based on my understanding, a time attack is not an official race event, as such, I do not consider it a "race" within the context of car racing.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm talking about a time attack, not a time attack series! Figured this edit was necessary, looking at some of the most recent posts.

Once that's clear, I'll be following up with Step Two. But let's not try too much at once, eh? ;)
 
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doctorrg
I'm glad.



Hmm, ok.



I think you've missed my point. It's not about me thinking that I can't be wrong, it's about me considering a "race" to be an official race event. A time attack I do not consider to be an official race event, nor have I seen any racing authority who does. That's what's at the heart of my understanding of "race". I have not come across a time attack being classified as an official race event. If you want to show me I'm wrong, all you need to do is give me a link that shows that a time attack is classified as an official race event (well, we're talking about the HKS CT230R, so I guess it's clear what I'm asking for). That really is all it takes to convince me. And no, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I really don't care what people think, I only care about what they're trying to convince me of. And all it takes is one link, not a bunch of arguments which really talk about something else.

As said, based on your understanding of "race", the HKS CT230R is a race car.

And if I were to learn that a time attack (well, within the given context) is considered a race event by a racing authority, I'd have been convinced of me having been wrong. You see? I don't at all think I can't be wrong.



This really puzzles me. I actually thought I was quite clear.



Well, let's do it in baby steps, so it's not getting too complicated.

Step One

Based on my understanding, a time attack is not an official race event, as such, I do not consider it a "race" within the context of car racing.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm talking about a time attack, not a time attack series! Figured this edit was necessary, looking at some of the most recent posts.

Once that's clear, I'll be following up with Step Two. But let's not try too much at once, eh? ;)
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http://superlapbattle.com/blog/

Here you go bro.
 
"The Super Session is the finale of the event. The fastest competitors from the Time Attack amongst Street, Modified, and Super Modified classes are invited to participate in a five lap sprint race. Only vehicles with the necessary safety equipment are allowed to compete. One race with mixed classes is conducted in a traditional wheel-to-wheel format, with the grid arranged with the fastest cars up front and slowest in back. The field takes the green under a rolling start, and the winner is the first to cross the finish line after five laps. Passing is allowed at any time after the green flag. Points are awarded to the drivers based on finishing position."

"Beginning with the 2011 season, Redline Pro Time Attack will reformat the weekend of racing activities to better showcase the top level talent and premier teams that are involved in the sport of time attack."

"The Franchise Team Program was created for the 2009 Redline Time Attack Season. The program allows for teams to commit to running the entirety of the race season"

Sounds both racy and official.

From the redline website by the way.
 
:banghead: Really? Come on. Tell me we're all being trolled. This can't be for real.
 
freedomweasel
"The Super Session is the finale of the event. The fastest competitors from the Time Attack amongst Street, Modified, and Super Modified classes are invited to participate in a five lap sprint race. Only vehicles with the necessary safety equipment are allowed to compete. One race with mixed classes is conducted in a traditional wheel-to-wheel format, with the grid arranged with the fastest cars up front and slowest in back. The field takes the green under a rolling start, and the winner is the first to cross the finish line after five laps. Passing is allowed at any time after the green flag. Points are awarded to the drivers based on finishing position."

"Beginning with the 2011 season, Redline Pro Time Attack will reformat the weekend of racing activities to better showcase the top level talent and premier teams that are involved in the sport of time attack."

"The Franchise Team Program was created for the 2009 Redline Time Attack Season. The program allows for teams to commit to running the entirety of the race season"

Sounds both racy and official.

From the redline website by the way.
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Well, yes, it's a time attack series. And mind you, I'm not saying that beating a lap record isn't an official event. The question is whether it's an official racing event, with emphasis on racing. I really haven't come across anything that said so, and maybe it indeed is because I didn't look properly? All well possible. I'm still looking for where it says a time attack is an official race event, though.
 
doctorrg
Sorry, but this link says no such thing. This all talks about a time attack series, not about a time attack being classified as an official race event.
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It's sanctioned by National Auto Sport Association (NASA).
You can refer to the rules tab:

The Super Lap Battle qualifying rounds are a joint effort with NASA’s Time Trial series.
To qualify for our Super Lap Battle Final we will take the top nine fastest cars of each of
the qualifying rounds that fit within the guidelines of our Super Lap Battle rules. NASA
will handle all registrations, timing, tech inspections and on track activities for the
qualifying rounds. We are looking for the best of the best and will be taking the fastest
three cars that fall under our Unlimited Class rules, the fastest three cars that fall under
our Limited Class rules and the three fastest cars that fall under our Street Class rules.
 
Villain
:banghead: Really? Come on. Tell me we're all being trolled. This can't be for real.
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That's a bit of a weak argument, isn't it? Mind you, some people are trying to convince me that it is wrong to not consider a time attack a race. And you're calling me a troll because...?

Why exactly should I consider a time attack, and no, I'm not talking about any series, I'm talking about a time attack, a race?
 
stanong11
Anyway, maybe we are deviating too much.
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Maybe. It's not really important either, unless, of course, people put words in my mouth or call me names, I simply seem to be unable to let that stand.
 
doctorrg
Well, yes, it's a time attack series. And mind you, I'm not saying that beating a lap record isn't an official event. The question is whether it's an official racing event, with emphasis on racing. I really haven't come across anything that said so, and maybe it indeed is because I didn't look properly? All well possible. I'm still looking for where it says a time attack is an official race event, though.
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WHAT?!!?

Man, Red Line Time Attack Series calls their own events "races" and are part of "race seasons" and include "wheel-to-wheel" action. They award points to the winners after each race, these points add up throughout the season. What else do you want?

Define "official".

In case you didn't see Stanong11's post above, I'll post this bit again:
"It's sanctioned by National Auto Sport Association (NASA).
You can refer to the rules tab:

The Super Lap Battle qualifying rounds are a joint effort with NASA’s Time Trial series."
 
doctorrg
Why exactly should I consider a time attack, and no, I'm not talking about any series, I'm talking about a time attack, a race?
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I told you my definition of a race already, and I'm not going to repeat myself.

How does Time Attack fit that requirement?

Easy: it is a competition to see which car is able to set the quickest lap around a given track. There are several classes of competition, the HKS CT230R Evo is a purpose-built car which competes (and dominated) in the Unlimited AWD Class. The cars do not compete on the track at the same time, and share this characteristic with other racing events like rally which is not limited to WRC, but also includes the world-famous Pikes Peak Hillclimb, Dakar Rally, Baja 1000, and the like. It is a timed event and thus, the "first" car across the line is not always the winner. The real race is against the clock.

It's still a race nonetheless.

This is very simple. I really don't understand how you are struggling so much with this concept. I don't think I can dumb it down any further than this.
 
Villain
I told you my definition of a race already, and I'm not going to repeat myself.
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As I've already said myself, repeatedly, I have no issues with your definition of race, and I'm just going to leave it at that.
 
If you guys are saying that anything that can compete in a race is a race car/ anything that has competed in a race is a race car then surely; IN GT5 every single car is a race car...

I've mentioned before I'm in the GT5 section and I'm asking for opinions, I'm watching it unfurl,
 
LOL!!!!

What was the subject again? Ah yes, we where debating if the HKS CT230R is a Race or a tuner car!

I still dont unerstand why some people here thinks that a stripped car like this one, is still considered a tuner :ouch:

Think about it:

-Stripped to the extreme
-No ashtray
-No A/C , Heater
-No radio
-Custom Roll Cage
-No Headlights
-Carbon fiber everywhere
-spotwelded frame
-Only ONE seat
-OEM seatbelt REMOVED, Harness Installed (I hope you know that is illegal Removing it)
-Car design for track use only (d'oh!)
-Etc...
-Etc...

:odd:


Need more proof? :rolleyes:
 
GYMKHANA_RYAN4
If you guys are saying that anything that can compete in a race is a race car/ anything that has competed in a race is a race car then surely; IN GT5 every single car is a race car...

I've mentioned before I'm in the GT5 section and I'm asking for opinions, I'm watching it unfurl,
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No we're not, stop trying to twist words.
 
GYMKHANA_RYAN4
If you guys are saying that anything that can compete in a race is a race car/ anything that has competed in a race is a race car then surely; IN GT5 every single car is a race car...

I've mentioned before I'm in the GT5 section and I'm asking for opinions, I'm watching it unfurl,
Click to expand...

Anything can compete in a race.

But the definition of a race car is:

car used for racing: a car used, designed, or adapted for the sport of automobile racing
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http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861697641/racecar.html

The CT230R is used for racing and is designed for it.

Maybe it bugs people that a Miata with a rollcage and R-Comps is a racecar, but that's the honest-to-goodness long and short of it. As long as a car is modified and adapted for track duty, it's a race car.
 
I say it is a race car because it isn't a tuner, as it wasn't available to the public, and it wasn't a display car because they took it to time attacks, and continued to go to them. It wasn't just a one off.
 
I thought it was a racecar from the beginning and after reading a few of the posts here, I'm still convinced it's a racecar. Why anyone would care about that question should be the real question...lol.
 
One thing that just struck me is that some people seem to think being made by HKS, a known tuner company, means that this is a tuner car only. Why is that the case? What about these:
Here's two GT300 race cars made by a tuner.
Here's two GT300 race cars made by a Mazda-centric tuner.
Here's an FIA GT race car made by what was originally a Jaguar-centric tuner.
Here's a Super Taikyu series race car made by a Honda-centric tuner.
 
Toronado
One thing that just struck me is that some people seem to think being made by HKS, a known tuner company, means that this is a tuner car only. Why is that the case? What about these:
Here's two GT300 race cars made by a tuner.
Here's two GT300 race cars made by a Mazda-centric tuner.
Here's an FIA GT race car made by what was originally a Jaguar-centric tuner.
Here's a Super Taikyu series race car made by a Honda-centric tuner.
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Tuner race car.
 

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