Holy fudgecakes! 7:22 has been achieved on the 'Ring by none other than...

[Muzaffar]

Is there proof of what tires the ZR1 and GTR used when lapping the ring?

7 mins 20. Just a couple years back 7 mins 35 was fast and done only by the hyper cars. Yet now it seems every tom dick and harrys sportscar can achieve those fast times just a couple years later.

To me I reckon something is up, because lap 'ring times became so popular with enthusiasts car companys now seem to be doing anything to beat each other, and sort of takes away from the spirit as these cars are no longer the same spec as what you buy from the garage.

Well the ZR1 did use Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires, while the ACR used the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup. As in this picture, the two tires are totally different, and look how "slick" the cup tires are:

So don't tell me these tires don't make a difference.... because they practically do. As for the GT-R V-Spec, I don't really know what tire they used, but I'm sure its not something like the Sport Cup tires....

 

[MustangSVT]

This is as impressive as how a Radical SR8 can do an insane time at Nurburgring. Sure it's very fast but is it livable as an everyday car? I would say no. And for that reason I would never consider buying one as a roadcar. As far as I'm concerned, this car is racecar teritorry. I can almost guarantee you if you were to fit those same kind of wings and tyres on a ZR-1, you'd probably end up with better results.

 

[Joey D]

Right but neither Nissan or Chevy will sell you one of their halo cars in this trim. It's still stock and if you did the same thing to another car it wouldn't be.

 

[MustangSVT]

Right but neither Nissan or Chevy will sell you one of their halo cars in this trim. It's still stock and if you did the same thing to another car it wouldn't be.

Yes but like I said, it's essentially a racecar. I'd say you're probably better off just buying a lesser road car that doesn't pretend to be a racecar (i.e. something like M3) and then buy a dedicated race car.

I don't have anything against the Viper ACR, but I don't think it should be compared to cars like ZR-1, Porsche 911 Turbo (or GT2) or GT-R or the like when the Viper is a road car as much as a BMW M3 GTR is a road car. Again this is just my own opinion.

 

[Joey D]

It's still street legal (judging by the fact I've seen them on the road with normal license plates) so it should be compared to other street cars with similar performance.

Look I hate the Viper and think it's an awful vehicle since it uses a giant engine to achieve it's power, it's not particularly well made either and has about as much sophistication as a hillbilly. It's really one of the last cars I would defend due to me liking it.

 

[Greycap]

It's still street legal (judging by the fact I've seen them on the road with normal license plates) so it should be compared to other street cars with similar performance.

The trick is actually just in this. The Viper ran the time with the front splitter in place but it's illegal to use it on the roads as the ride height becomes too low. The splitter is said to increase the front downforce by a third... could it have clocked that time without the splitter and thus in road legal trim? Highly likely not, and there's the problem - the time, as it is, is incomparable to others' times. The car wasn't road legal during the run, the GT-R and the ZR1 were.

 

[Joey D]

I still haven't been able to find out where you got that information at, every ACR I've seen on the road has a front splitter attached to it.

 

[Greycap]

Page 48 of the magazine, "For the street, Reece unbolted the front splitter (illegal for the street, it removes easily with eight bolts and fits and fits under the hatch)"

At the end of the first paragraph, "...and the four-inch-deep removable center for the front splitter (so the car passes standard bumper offset laws and doesn't headbutt every bump in the road) fitted to improve front-end downforce by a third."

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Obviously the gearbox simply sucks...

It's exactly the same gearbox as is used in the 'Vettes and the Shelby GT500.

Mounts for the engine/trans are probably a bit softer than they should be but...

 

[Joey D]

Guess people just drive around with them anyways. I still stand by my statement the car was stock, even if the splitter isn't "street legal", since you buy the car with that piece of it and it's probably attached when you drive it off the lot.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Page 48 of the magazine, "For the street, Reece unbolted the front splitter (illegal for the street, it removes easily with eight bolts and fits and fits under the hatch)"

At the end of the first paragraph, "...and the four-inch-deep removable center for the front splitter (so the car passes standard bumper offset laws and doesn't headbutt every bump in the road) fitted to improve front-end downforce by a third."

2000 Mustang Cobra R's front splitter was removable as well more likely than not due to the same reasons.

It's still a street car.

 

[McLaren]

The trick is actually just in this. The Viper ran the time with the front splitter in place but it's illegal to use it on the roads as the ride height becomes too low. The splitter is said to increase the front downforce by a third... could it have clocked that time without the splitter and thus in road legal trim? Highly likely not, and there's the problem - the time, as it is, is incomparable to others' times. The car wasn't road legal during the run, the GT-R and the ZR1 were.

The front splitter is legal. Otherwise, Dodge would be in trouble for selling people a street legal car with parts that aren't. The only issue with the front splitter is that it makes the car's front become a bigger issue with speed bumps.
And Road & Track even acknowledge it's legal by using it in an example to show how low.

The car is rough-riding and noisy. And it rides low enough that you have to inch your way up any driveway because of the front splitter. Fortunately, its front section can be removed for easier everyday driveability.

It's street legal in full form, so please stop this nonsense. Yes, you can add spoiler to a GT-R & a ZR1 and maybe they would be this fast. But the simple fact is that they don't come from the factory that way, so there's no point in bringing it up.

 

[MustangSVT]

It's still street legal (judging by the fact I've seen them on the road with normal license plates) so it should be compared to other street cars with similar performance.

Look I hate the Viper and think it's an awful vehicle since it uses a giant engine to achieve it's power, it's not particularly well made either and has about as much sophistication as a hillbilly. It's really one of the last cars I would defend due to me liking it.

Can the whole thing about front splitter or something like that being non-street legal actually be verified or is that just a guess?

 

[Joey D]

Can the whole thing about front splitter or something like that being non-street legal actually be verified or is that just a guess?

Motor Trend said one thing and Road & Track said another so I don't really know. I've see three on the street (not in any position where it would be safe to get a photo for the DYSAGT thread), all with a front splitter on it. Maybe it varies from area to area or maybe no one cares.

 

[Motominded]

Write up from another forum.

This is still considered unofficial.

Go to Motor Trends Web site to see the Vid.

Much Much lower quality Youtube Video

Autoblog writes:

We're not terribly surprised that the Dodge Viper ACR has apparently made it around the famed German racing circuit faster than pretty much anything else you'll find on a dealer's lot. After all, the ACR is a race car, as evidenced by the video that Motor Trend has posted. The most venomous Viper has done the deed in 7:22, fast enough to make grown men cry. To this blogger, the Viper is dead gorgeous, even with that yucky-but-functional rear wing on the ACR, and it definitely carries the spirit of hairy-chested cars of yore. The shifter wobbles around horrendously when the driver kisses the rev limiter a few times, and there even appears to be a flubbed shift near the end, so the ACR may have faster laps left in it. We're waiting on confirmation on whether or not this is an official lap, but it's certainly creating a stir, and the Viper wants to know, V-Spec who? Thanks for the tip, Rob.

The saying used to be "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday", now it is "We Beat Everybody and i Mean Everybody at the Ring"

That was great "Real" driving. Autoblog wrote 1 bouched gear change but it was actually 2. He missed coming out of Adenauer Forst.

How much more simple can you get?

Again. He is working to drive it and that is what most impresses me. He hasn't got an electronic 4wd system, a chassis developed in part by Lotus, No, it is just him fighting ten cylinders and chassis that could be ranked at best average. Brilliant driving on the part of that man and i hope Vipers will start selling like they used to again. I know that in Japan, the Chevrolet Corvette is sold as its own brand of car. With the financial woes of Chrysler LLC now, i hope they make more of that push to insure the Viper lives on.

Wiki Ring times: Production vehicles

20,832 m (68,350 ft) 7:22.1 Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR Tom Coronel 18 August 2008 Motor Trend manufacturer claimed, Stock ACR specification with Hardcore Package
20832 m 7:26.4 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 Jim Mero 27 June 2008 General Motors manufacturer claimed, base specification car with stock tires, video confirmed
20832 m 7:27 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport Marc Basseng September 2007 Pagani semi-wet conditions, manufacturer claimed
20832 m 7:29 Nissan GT-R Toshio Suzuki 16 April 2008 Nissan Motors manufacturer claimed, base GTR with stock tires, video confirmed
20600 m 7:32.02 Porsche 911 GT2 2008 Walter Röhrl 2007 Porsche[8] Manufacturer claimed, semi-slicks tires used.
20600 m 7:32.44 Porsche Carrera GT Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2004)
20600 m 7:34 Koenigsegg CCR Horst von Saurma 17 October 2005 Sport Auto (03/2006)
20600 m 7:35 Ruf Rt 12 Sport Auto (02/2008)
7:39 Ferrari 430 Scuderia Sport Auto (07/2008)
20600 m 7:40 Bugatti Veyron 16.4 'Wheels' magazine (12/2005)
20600 m 7:40 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Klaus Ludwig AutoBild (07/2004)
20600 m 7:40 Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Giorgio Sanna Lamborghini Autobild (01/2007)
7:40.6 Ford GT Markus Draper Octane Magazine
7:42 Porsche 911/ GT3 Walter Röhrl Automobil (05/2006) Sport Auto (05/2006)
7:42.99 Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06 Jan Magnussen 2005 Motor Trend
7:43 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 'Motor' magazine
7:44 Pagani Zonda S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (02/2005)

 

[CDailey]

I still don't understand why he didn't go into 5th on the big straight? Or is the gearing wrong for it? *shrug*

Did you see how fast he went down the straight? He probably would have lost speed if he shifted.

 

[Greycap]

It's street legal in full form, so please stop this nonsense.

You may want to tell me exactly how the hell it's nonsense to question the splitter's legality when two different sources very clearly say it's illegal. Or are my sources somehow less creditable than yours?

 

[Omnis]

It's street legal in full form, so please stop this nonsense. Yes, you can add spoiler to a GT-R & a ZR1 and maybe they would be this fast. But the simple fact is that they don't come from the factory that way, so there's no point in bringing it up.

In that case, I can't wait for the GT-R N1. Or should it be N2?

Also, it never ceases to amaze me how Chrysler can build such repulsive interiors.

 

[YSSMAN]

Absolutely amazing! Its stuff like this that makes me proud that I come from a state where we can shove a heavy-duty pickup truck engine in a sports car, slap some aero gear on the outside, and make a run for the fastest production car time at the Nurburgring. Its simplicity and otherwise raw nature goes unmatched, and after watching that video, I commend the driver for doing what he did.

Two missed shifts (I blame the T56), bouncing off the rev limiter every-other corner (he should have just left the thing in third and let the torque do its job), and the obvious cases of oversteer (watch the throttle, man!)... It was just an epic run, simple as that. If he went back out there, cut the crap, I think we could see at least two seconds shaved off. That's just absolutely brilliant!

RE: The Front Splitter

Hmmmm... While it may be considered "illegal" to keep it on in some places, I think you'll find that while it may be the law, it is not something that would be enforced easily. I'd be willing to bet (as confirmed by Joey), here in Michigan, we just don't care. Maybe those Communists down in Ohio would, but in most places, probably not. They make it detachable for a reason, and the fact that it is sold with the car makes it a production piece that is totally applicable to any run on the track.

Closing thought:

With a performance like that, I would honestly hope that someone at Nissan and someone at Team Corvette is gathering ideas for building their own version of a streetable race car ala the ACR and GT3. I'm quite certain that a ZR1 (or even a Z06) and a GT-R with similar kit would obliterate the 'Ring, and to be honest, with a run like this, I demand that they give us some kind of satisfaction of seeing them do so.

 

[McLaren]

You may want to tell me exactly how the hell it's nonsense to question the splitter's legality when two different sources very clearly say it's illegal. Or are my sources somehow less creditable than yours?

And my source clearly hints that it is legal.

You need to rethink what you're accusing. Why would Dodge sell a non-street legal part on a car they claim is 100% street legal? Do you not grasp how much trouble Dodge would get in for doing that? And the fact that since this is the US, you have to factor in whether or not that it may be illegal in 1 state, and legal in the next.

But regardless, the time is a fair, at this point, unofficial time. Even if there is a chance that splitter is illegal, the time is still valid because the fact of the matter is that that splitter comes stock on the production car. Thus, it is still within the rules to be called the Fastest Production Car on the 'Ring (if you don't consider Radical or that a production car).

 

[Tornado]

I find it terribly ironic that after multiple pages of vitriol defending the GT-R, a few members have decided to hang the Viper out to dry for the same reasons they defended the GT-R against. The Viper is sold like that from the factory, so it doesn't particularly matter whether or not the splitter needs to be removed to be street legal, especially when there is proof towards both arguments and members have seen them tooling around with them in place.

And for the love of god, don't bring up the tire discussion. Those are DOT legal street tires that the Viper was designed to use. Porsche options them on the GT3.

Sure it's very fast but is it livable as an everyday car? I would say no.

No Viper has ever been particularly livable, and this one is no different.

 

[forza2.0]

Well the ZR1 did use Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires, while the ACR used the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup. As in this picture, the two tires are totally different, and look how "slick" the cup tires are:

So don't tell me these tires don't make a difference.... because they practically do. As for the GT-R V-Spec, I don't really know what tire they used, but I'm sure its not something like the Sport Cup tires....

You read wrong. I never said anything about tires not making a difference. What I asked was is there any sold proof of what tyres exactly the GTR and ZR1 used when lapping the ring

 

[Leonidae]

well, next time when they're over there, book tickets, fly to germany, get a camera and join the bunch of spy photographers or sneak into the pits or something. nothing else will satisfy you..

 

[homeforsummer]

Well done Dodge 👍

To me I reckon something is up, because lap 'ring times became so popular with enthusiasts car companys now seem to be doing anything to beat each other, and sort of takes away from the spirit as these cars are no longer the same spec as what you buy from the garage.

I agree with you on this. How long before we get a car doing under 7 minutes? 'Ring lap times will soon become as meaningless as the 200mph car - you can buy 4-door saloons that do 200mph now so a supercar doing so isn't a big deal. That's why Bugatti pushing for 250mph became special, 200mph meant nothing for supercars any more.

The saying used to be "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday", now it is "We Beat Everybody and i Mean Everybody at the Ring"

This is a view I've held for a while now. Building cars so single-minded to beat the 'Ring lap time will start to become at the expense of just making a good car that can actually be used day to day. Obviously I'm excluding the GT-R from this because it can pretty much do everything well, but are the ZR1 and ACR usable?

 

[Tornado]

The ACR is no less unusable than any other Viper, and the ZR-1 will likely be more usable than the Z06 is.

 

[Greycap]

And my source clearly hints that it is legal.

You need to rethink what you're accusing. Why would Dodge sell a non-street legal part on a car they claim is 100% street legal? Do you not grasp how much trouble Dodge would get in for doing that? And the fact that since this is the US, you have to factor in whether or not that it may be illegal in 1 state, and legal in the next.

It does indeed. But is it any more right than mine? The state thing is very interesting because I doubt the illegality things stems from nowhere, they have no reason to make it up. It's very possible that the splitter is legal in state X and illegal in state Y. Technically Dodge would be clear by enclosing an official paper with the car telling the owner to remove the splitter on the streets in state Y. It's not their fault anymore if the driver is an idiot and uses it despite being told otherwise.

I find it terribly ironic that after multiple pages of vitriol defending the GT-R, a few members have decided to hang the Viper out to dry for the same reasons they defended the GT-R against.

Unfortunately it goes the other way round too, some of the same people who were certain (and later proven wrong) the GT-R had a tweaked suspension, cheater tyres and what not, now accept the Viper's time without a word and praise its performance. You can't blame one side for doing a thing if the other side gets away doing the same.

 

[forza2.0]

well, next time when they're over there, book tickets, fly to germany, get a camera and join the bunch of spy photographers or sneak into the pits or something. nothing else will satisfy you..

Gonna go next summer.

According to swedish AMS and their sources from Audi told AMS that R8 V10 is faster than 7.26 min around N-ring.

Audi R8 V10 - snabbast av alla runt Ringen? - Auto Motor & Sport - NYHETER - biltester, bilnyheter, bil-tv och bilfakta på nätet


So you are telling me audi have made a car that is what over 40 secs faster around the ring than their V8 R8? I doubt it, I reckon cup/racing/slicks whatever you wnat to call it tires are fitted.

Also when independantly tested the GTR is usually faster than its competition, but not all that much faster, but howcome around the 'ring its much faster than its competition, even when the competition got timed around the ring with cup tyres

Sorry but if you ever had the pleasure of experiencing the difference a cup tyre makes to a car over the standard tyre, or even a high grip summer tyre you will most certainly think more along my lines of thinking. A 1700+ kg car on normal summer tires wont keep up with a rival vehicle fitted with cups. Zonda laptime is a good indication of my theory.

 

[Tornado]

You can't blame one side for doing a thing if the other side gets away doing the same.

When I was little I was taught a phrase: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

As someone who posted with essentially the same viewpoint as you had over the entire GT-R thread, I must say that I am shocked that you feel it fit to now take up every argument that you claimed was unfair in that thread against the Viper seemingly only because Viper was faster.


And forza? STFU. This is NOT the GT-R thread, and I will report you if you continue to try and turn it into it.

 

[forza2.0]

Oh btw, sportauto reckon a cup tire makes about 15+ secs difference around the 'ring on a midrange sportcars ie 911.

 

[Leonidae]

you've been shot down about this matter before. I will ignore your little baiting since it's not relevant to this thread.