Holy fudgecakes! 7:22 has been achieved on the 'Ring by none other than...

[forza2.0]

When I was little I was taught a phrase: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

As someone who posted with essentially the same viewpoint as you had over the entire GT-R thread, I must say that I am shocked that you feel it fit to now take up every argument that you claimed was unfair in that thread against the Viper seemingly only because Viper was faster.


And forza? STFU. This is NOT the GT-R thread, and I will report you if you continue to try and turn it into it.

lol calm down dear, I was only using the GTR as an example, and example which I believe applies to all the recent manufacturers claiming super fast 'ring lap times all of a sudden.

Plus you yourself have been talking about the GTR, so perhaps you should also "STFU" and report yourself

 

[YSSMAN]

The ACR is no less unusable than any other Viper, and the ZR-1 will likely be more usable than the Z06 is.

Pretty much. I'd be willing to bet that the ZR1 is more "usable" than even the basic Z51 Corvette. Chalk it up to the Magnaride suspension. Now if they can just pass down some of that tuning on the low-level Magnaride car and equip it with decent tires...

 

[Tornado]

Plus you yourself have been talking about the GTR, so perhaps you should also "STFU" and report yourself

I was contrasting certain members actions in the GT-R thread with their actions in this thread, and made no mention of the Nissan's abilities, 'Ring time or performance abilities whatsoever.

You were trying to start another "GT-R isn't fast" blah blah "Nissan lied" blah blah "prove what tires were run" crapfest, and quite frankly no one is in the mood for it anymore. Perhaps you could see what I was actually saying before you claim I was trying to drag the GT-R in here.

 

[Dave A]

The ACR is no less unusable than any other Viper,

The from splitter alone dissagree with you, as does the big rear wing.

 

[Tornado]

The from splitter alone dissagree with you.

The front splitter has nothing to do with usability, or the Viper's lack of it.

 

[forza2.0]

I was contrasting certain members actions in the GT-R thread with their actions in this thread, and made no mention of the Nissan's abilities, 'Ring time or performance abilities whatsoever.

You were trying to start another "GT-R isn't fast" blah blah "Nissan lied" blah blah "prove what tires were run" crapfest, and quite frankly no one is in the mood for it anymore. Perhaps you could see what I was actually saying before you claim I was trying to drag the GT-R in here.

Not exactly. People where saying the Viper only did this time due to its tires and downforce. My argument is that the tire argument is invalid as I believe that all of these new fast laptimes were all done with those super grippy tires anyway. I then provided some material as to why I thought that way, mainly concentrating on audi's V10 R8's laptime.

Therefore I wasnt saying anything negative about the GTR, but merely defending the Viper.

 

[Tornado]

Fair enough.

 

[Dave A]

The front splitter has nothing to do with usability, or the Viper's lack of it.

You never watched TopGear when Hammond had to get a Zonda our of a car park and off a kerb I take it. The splitter caused havok. Bottom line is a splitter hangs under the fornt of your car, meaning the front of your cars lowest point is now nearer the road than before. This can cause problems when negotiating bumps or having to pull up or down a kerp for access. The result is that this makes it less usable.

 

[Tornado]

The Viper is cramped. The cabin quickly gets hot and the air conditioning sucks. You burn yourself on the rocker panels. You can cook eggs on the hood. The gearbox/clutch act as if sourced from a truck. Its noisy. The footwell is like an oven. The ride is brutal. It tops at out a whopping 6 cubic feet of cargo space. Low speed steering is heavy. Its hard to drive at any speed.

It was already unusable (intentionally so), so making the front end an inch or so lower isn't going to do much in the grand scheme of things. To be honest, the rear spoiler probably causes more problems than the front splitter does.

 

[Dave A]

But the fact is the ACR has at least two areas where it is worse off than the standard car in usability. Rear visability and the front ride height. I'd wager than the ride in general is a lot stiffer and as a result harsher on the spine too, but that's an assumption. It is less usable, to what degree was never part of my point.

 

[Blackbird.]

So doesn't the Viper have 6 gears? I don't understand why he didn't put it into 5th even at the straight.. That would have boosted the time even more... I'm confused I must be missing something.

 

[Tornado]

My point was that the Viper was already so incredibly unusable as it was that the ACR's additional shortcomings would in essence be meaningless. Especially to the people (crazy Texans) who typically use Vipers day to day anyways.

So doesn't the Viper have 6 gears? I don't understand why he didn't put it into 5th even at the straight..

Car and Driver said that the downforce makes 5th gear occur very slowly. Pounding it off the rev limiter in 4th probably was faster than shifting into 5th and accelerating from there, especially going uphill.

 

[McLaren]

So doesn't the Viper have 6 gears? I don't understand why he didn't put it into 5th even at the straight.. That would have boosted the time even more... I'm confused I must be missing something.

He would have lost time. One of the members at Viper Alley was there at the 'Ring, and said the driver was going against 20Mph head wind. If he shifted, he would have lost a pretty good amount of speed.

 

[Leonidae]

In addition, 5th is already an overgear in T56 if I recall right..

 

[Tornado]

In the normal Viper it is a usable ratio, but the ACR runs out of oomph fairly early in 5th gear.

 

[MustangSVT]

In the normal Viper it is a usable ratio, but the ACR runs out of oomph fairly early in 5th gear.

Could you elaborate on this? I am terribly curious as to why this is. Do you simply mean that because it's on the back straight on the Ring where you go uphill, that he was better off maintaing ~full power at like 6500rpm or however much it is in 4th gear rather than try to accelerate in 5th?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Nah, it's just that the ACR's aero package creates noticeable drag versus the normal Viper and 5th gear is just a bit too long to be useable at speed in it.

Why Chrysler has even the ACR geared for 300mph I know not but...

 

[Tornado]

Bumping off of the limiter in 4th gave him a constant speed in the 160 range. 5th gear in the Viper is good for 200 ish MPH, however, the ACR struggles over 165 due to its downforce, and budget concerns prevented Dodge from changing gears (what most reviews have called the main problem with the car). So for the ACR its top speed in 4th is quite close to its "true" top speed due to drag.
When you upshift you lose speed. If he was to upshift, not only would he lose speed because of that fact; but the combined forces of the uphill straight, imperfect gearing, the Viper's downforce and the headwind that the 'Ring had that day as well. He would then waste the entire straight trying to get back up to the speed he was in before upshifting; and he likely wouldn't match that, much less go any faster.
To wrap up, leaving it in 4th got him pretty close to the ACR's true top speed while at the same time keeping the Viper from losing any speed in the upshift.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Very nice driving for sure! Those Vipers are a beast to handle. I would love to take my 69 Camaro out there for at least 1 full lap. My time would probably be very close to the brand new C5 C6 Corvettes. I know my car could easily handle 1 lap with no problem. Plus I would get the long straight away to see how fast my car would do in 6th gear. I havent found a track yet around where I can put it in 6th. I just barely put it in 5th at Grattan raceway right around 125-130mph before the first turn.

 

[MustangSVT]

Bumping off of the limiter in 4th gave him a constant speed in the 160 range. 5th gear in the Viper is good for 200 ish MPH, however, the ACR struggles over 165 due to its downforce, and budget concerns prevented Dodge from changing gears (what most reviews have called the main problem with the car). So for the ACR its top speed in 4th is quite close to its "true" top speed due to drag.
When you upshift you lose speed. If he was to upshift, not only would he lose speed because of that fact; but the combined forces of the uphill straight, imperfect gearing, the Viper's downforce and the headwind that the 'Ring had that day as well. He would then waste the entire straight trying to get back up to the speed he was in before upshifting; and he likely wouldn't match that, much less go any faster.
To wrap up, leaving it in 4th got him pretty close to the ACR's true top speed while at the same time keeping the Viper from losing any speed in the upshift.

I think I understand now. The car creates so much downforce that its true top speed for the chassis is around 165, maybe like 170-180mph at most, so when you get into 5th gear, it's not exactly gonna start pulling away even though it's got 600 horsepower.

So if I get this straight, the Viper has like 2 highway gears? What's the deal with that if this is a track car.

There's probably some aftermarket mod that the ACR owners will most likely do to shorten 5th and 6th.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I think I understand now. The car creates so much downforce that its true top speed for the chassis is around 165, maybe like 170-180mph at most, so when you get into 5th gear, it's not exactly gonna start pulling away even though it's got 600 horsepower.

So if I get this straight, the Viper has like 2 highway gears? What's the deal with that if this is a track car.

There's probably some aftermarket mod that the ACR owners will most likely do to shorten 5th and 6th.

Yep, namely shorter rear gears.

 

[peeweegary]

somebody needs to give the ACR to Sabine. Why didn't the baboon go into 5th gear on the long ass straight.

 

[McLaren]

somebody needs to give the ACR to Sabine. Why didn't the baboon go into 5th gear on the long ass straight.

Read below so Toronado doesn't have to explain once again.

My point was that the Viper was already so incredibly unusable as it was that the ACR's additional shortcomings would in essence be meaningless. Especially to the people (crazy Texans) who typically use Vipers day to day anyways.


Car and Driver said that the downforce makes 5th gear occur very slowly. Pounding it off the rev limiter in 4th probably was faster than shifting into 5th and accelerating from there, especially going uphill.

In the normal Viper it is a usable ratio, but the ACR runs out of oomph fairly early in 5th gear.

Bumping off of the limiter in 4th gave him a constant speed in the 160 range. 5th gear in the Viper is good for 200 ish MPH, however, the ACR struggles over 165 due to its downforce, and budget concerns prevented Dodge from changing gears (what most reviews have called the main problem with the car). So for the ACR its top speed in 4th is quite close to its "true" top speed due to drag.
When you upshift you lose speed. If he was to upshift, not only would he lose speed because of that fact; but the combined forces of the uphill straight, imperfect gearing, the Viper's downforce and the headwind that the 'Ring had that day as well. He would then waste the entire straight trying to get back up to the speed he was in before upshifting; and he likely wouldn't match that, much less go any faster.
To wrap up, leaving it in 4th got him pretty close to the ACR's true top speed while at the same time keeping the Viper from losing any speed in the upshift.

 

[mafia_boy]

5th gear isn't too big an overdrive on a T56 and wouldn't have affected the Viper that much....the drag may have but even then the hp would've still overridden the aero drag from the spoiler and the viper would've pulled some more. 6th gear, different story!!

As for the GT-R vs Viper argument from a couple of pages ago (you go to sleep for a couple of hours and the whole thread blows up!!), I've got a couple of issues. Now I'm not a Nissan fanboy but I actually researched the tire theory first. The wheel/tyre combo for the R35 is this:

Exclusively developed nitrogen-filled Bridgestone� RE070A high-capacity run-flat summer tires, 255/40R20 front and 285/35R20 rear.

For the ZR1:

Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires – P285/30ZR19 in front and P335/25ZR20 in the rear – developed specifically for the ZR1

No semi-slicks on either car there.

And no-one has made any direct comparison. You're comparing a lightened race/road viper vs a road GT-R. Compare it when the GT-R has it's hi-po version out (V-Spec, then N1 and all the other derivitives of the R35 to come) then we can continue this argument. Until then you are all comparing apples to bananas!!

 

[Dave A]

I think I understand now. The car creates so much downforce that its true top speed for the chassis is around 165, maybe like 170-180mph at most, so when you get into 5th gear, it's not exactly gonna start pulling away even though it's got 600 horsepower.

So if I get this straight, the Viper has like 2 highway gears? What's the deal with that if this is a track car.

There's probably some aftermarket mod that the ACR owners will most likely do to shorten 5th and 6th.

You're about there. As for the car having 2 highway gears, well yeah, sort off, but only by virtue of chance. The car uses the same gears as the regular Vipers due to costs involved in making a new gearbox, it wasn't planned to have bad gearing, that's just how it ended up once budgets had been met and all. As for an afermarket mod, you can get different gearboxes. You could get one off a racing Viper if you wanted but it might not be cheap. You don't change gear ratios irl life you do in Gran Turismo, by simply tweaking the ratios as you like. Each ratio change requires a new gear to replace the ratio you're changing so getting the right ratio can be hit and miss and it can be rather time and wallet consuming hence development of a better set of gears was crossed off the list of things to do.

 

[Tornado]

5th gear isn't too big an overdrive on a T56 and wouldn't have affected the Viper that much....the drag may have but even then the hp would've still overridden the aero drag from the spoiler and the viper would've pulled some more. 6th gear, different story!!

Top speed tests under much more ideal conditions say otherwise. Edmunds ran out of power after 165, and they weren't driving uphill on a bumpy track with 20 MPH headwinds.

 

[McLaren]

And no-one has made any direct comparison. You're comparing a lightened race/road viper vs a road GT-R. Compare it when the GT-R has it's hi-po version out (V-Spec, then N1 and all the other derivitives of the R35 to come) then we can continue this argument. Until then you are all comparing apples to bananas!!

I don't know why the GT-R is brought in when 7:22 is faster than the V-Spec's supposed time.

 

[Blackbird.]

I had a feeling 5th was too tall for the straight but I figured it couldn't be worse then revving 4th but the 20mph headwind definetly makes sense... That's quite a bit of headwind!

 

[mafia_boy]

See, you're still comparing Apples to bananas Reventon as the V-SPEC NEVER DID A HOTLAP OF THE NURBURGRING!! You are comparing a 7.22 from a semi-slicked, winged, lightened viper against a 7.29 from a STOCK STANDARD BASE MODEL GT-R WITH ONLY 480hp, NOT THE V-SPEC'S 520!!

If and When the V-Spec comes out for a hotlap, if it goes slower than the Viper then you can continue this Viper being better than the GT-R comments.

Until then.......I'm sitting back on the sidelines, this argument is getting P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S!!

 

[Rotary Junkie]

5th gear isn't too big an overdrive on a T56 and wouldn't have affected the Viper that much....the drag may have but even then the hp would've still overridden the aero drag from the spoiler and the viper would've pulled some more. 6th gear, different story!!

5th on the T56 is generally a 60-70% drop in RPM and because of the way the 'Vette is already geared, it's too damn long to run flat out in.