Holy fudgecakes! 7:22 has been achieved on the 'Ring by none other than...

[McLaren]

See, you're still comparing Apples to bananas Reventon as the V-SPEC NEVER DID A HOTLAP OF THE NURBURGRING!!

I never said it did. It has however, supposedly lapped the track in 7:25.

You are comparing a 7.22 from a semi-slicked, winged, lightened viper against a 7.29 from a STOCK STANDARD BASE MODEL GT-R WITH ONLY 480hp, NOT THE V-SPEC'S 520!!

I haven't done any such thing.

If and When the V-Spec comes out for a hotlap, if it goes slower than the Viper then you can continue this Viper being better than the GT-R comments.

I never said the Viper was better, either.

Until then.......I'm sitting back on the sidelines, this argument is getting P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S!!

Good because you obviously can't read anything that's been posted.

 

[Blackbird.]

Besides, if it's so pointless don't post in here if you feel you're wasting your time.

 

[YSSMAN]

5th on the T56 is generally a 60-70% drop in RPM and because of the way the 'Vette is already geared, it's too damn long to run flat out in.

The ZR1 will do 205 in 5th Gear as I recall, getting there fairly easily. For both cars, 6th gear is just too tall of an overdrive to be worth anything... Its the main reason why you can squeak out nearly 30 MPG on the highway with the more "standard" Corvettes.

 

[mafia_boy]

5th on the T56 is generally a 60-70% drop in RPM and because of the way the 'Vette is already geared, it's too damn long to run flat out in.

Yeah I know, we've got them here slapped in every Commodore V8. There is some pull in 5th, not mindblowing but still picks up. As soon as you shift into 6th in high speed, the speed drops back pretty badly with the gearing that ridiculously low.

I never said it did. It has however, supposedly lapped the track in 7:25.

Supposedly isn't actual. The Viper is actual.

Good because you obviously can't read anything that's been posted.

I over read the V-spec and thought you said the GTR base so apologies there. I'll sit with the cap on for that one but I obviously can read because I realised my mistake after re-reading it.

Besides, if it's so pointless don't post in here if you feel you're wasting your time.

The only waste of time was by you with that post. *shakes head*

The reason it was getting pointless was because it (as it's already heading) would've ended up being agree to disagree about both camps liking their car, with some of us saying one being better than the other as was evidenced in the previous pages.
We are comparing what has been repeatedly quoted as a "simplistic" car in the ACR Viper vs the most "playstation" type car of this generation in the R35 GT-R & V-spec. Until the final figures are on the table from BOTH camps hi-po models we won't get a final answer.

Get it now??

 

[Blackbird.]

The only waste of time was by you with that post. *shakes head*

I really don't care for the conversation but I don't like people that complain that a thread is pointless... if it's pointless honestly GTFO.

 

[V1P3R]

Yeah... anyway, I didn't read anything because I just read Viper and then am waiting for the stupid video to load and well... while that is happening I'm gonna get my new drawers ready. xD

Edit: Holy crap! Shift you blithering idiot! Some really bad sounds as he was driving. So yeah, I'm gonna go change my drawers now and an start FM2. See ya.

 

[nissan tuner]

Well the ZR1 did use Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tires, while the ACR used the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup. As in this picture, the two tires are totally different, and look how "slick" the cup tires are:

So don't tell me these tires don't make a difference.... because they practically do. As for the GT-R V-Spec, I don't really know what tire they used, but I'm sure its not something like the Sport Cup tires....

As much as people might not want to hear it, the ACR owes its time to its DOT spec tires especially with its long ass gearing. (or was it the driver's shifting?)

dont take this the wrong way guys, i like the car too you know

 

[V1P3R]

Actually to be totally honest... I don't know how he got that time, especially with what I saw to be missed shifts and overall just not looking like it was going that fast. Just seems a bit fishy somehow. Still love the Viper though.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Nice to see the 7:22 was driven by Tom Coronel, a Dutch racing driver.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Actually to be totally honest... I don't know how he got that time, especially with what I saw to be missed shifts and overall just not looking like it was going that fast. Just seems a bit fishy somehow. Still love the Viper though.

Seems a bit fishy because it's quicker than the GT-R despite the obvious errors or that it's hard to believe that something taking such a "redneck" approach to things can be so fast despite the errors?

It's amazing what sticky tires do, and amazing what a good glob of power does. Add in downforce and you have something ready to shred the 'Ring.

 

[MustangSVT]

See, you're still comparing Apples to bananas Reventon as the V-SPEC NEVER DID A HOTLAP OF THE NURBURGRING!! You are comparing a 7.22 from a semi-slicked, winged, lightened viper against a 7.29 from a STOCK STANDARD BASE MODEL GT-R WITH ONLY 480hp, NOT THE V-SPEC'S 520!!

If and When the V-Spec comes out for a hotlap, if it goes slower than the Viper then you can continue this Viper being better than the GT-R comments.

Until then.......I'm sitting back on the sidelines, this argument is getting P-O-I-N-T-L-E-S-S!!

No one is comparing the Viper ACR to the GT-R. At least not from what I can see.

You don't change gear ratios irl life you do in Gran Turismo, by simply tweaking the ratios as you like. Each ratio change requires a new gear to replace the ratio you're changing so getting the right ratio can be hit and miss and it can be rather time and wallet consuming hence development of a better set of gears was crossed off the list of things to do.

So a new 5th gear requires one of these, not just a simple 'tweak' of the computer programming software.

 

[Muzaffar]

You read wrong. I never said anything about tires not making a difference. What I asked was is there any sold proof of what tyres exactly the GTR and ZR1 used when lapping the ring

Oh well. Sorry about that..... Anyhow, since I totally was busy the whole entire day and have lost track of this conversation, I just stay back and watch what you guys have to say.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

You're about there. As for the car having 2 highway gears, well yeah, sort off, but only by virtue of chance. The car uses the same gears as the regular Vipers due to costs involved in making a new gearbox, it wasn't planned to have bad gearing, that's just how it ended up once budgets had been met and all. As for an afermarket mod, you can get different gearboxes. You could get one off a racing Viper if you wanted but it might not be cheap. You don't change gear ratios irl life you do in Gran Turismo, by simply tweaking the ratios as you like. Each ratio change requires a new gear to replace the ratio you're changing so getting the right ratio can be hit and miss and it can be rather time and wallet consuming hence development of a better set of gears was crossed off the list of things to do.

Your idea would work except changing the rear differential gear isn't exactly the hardest or most expensive thing.

Shorter rear gear = 5th can be used to some degree now woohoo. I can understand Chrysler not wanting to go into redoing the entire gearbox, but c'mon, replacing the ring and pinion is NOT difficult. Hell, designing the ring and pinion setup from ground zero effectively would still be fairly cheap.

Chrysler is just a bunch of idiots that's all.

 

[niky]

Actually, was wondering what the complaints about shifts were about... I was watching the video and noticed that the box seemed to be a real dog... the driver obviously had a hard time shifting into the gears, and he purposely laid off the gearbox between corners because he was really wrestling the car around, trying to keep it straight... very smart... he didn't bother to shift up when he'd be in gear for less than a second... that car makes it to the next corner bloody quick...

Of the videos I've seen of street cars on the 'Ring, this has to be one of the hairier ones... the car's crashing around a lot, obviously on the edge of adhesion, and the driver's wringing 110% out of it. There might be 1 or 2 seconds in missed shifts (damn box), but that's it. It's so on the edge (and on the rumble strips), it could be ripped off of a playstation screen. I don't think I have the balls to go that fast on the Nurb in real life.

This here's a car that'd benefit from an automatic... seriously... or at least paddle-shifters.

---

As for the "stock" argument... yes, if Dodge sells the splitter as stock, it is. Street-legal... well, there's bound to be places in the world that don't mind if you can't clear humps... otherwise, the Radical or Donkervoort would never be street-legal... hell... some supercars can't climb out of parking garages, either.

Hmmm... wonder if Nissan will consider adding a splitter or maybe even movable aero or ride height control after this stunt? ...a simple variable wing would give the Nissan a higher straightline speed than the ACR and similar downforce in corners... well... maybe not as much (for usable downforce, you really need a tall wing like the ACR's)... but maybe enough.

---

The splitter is obviously one of the reasons for the time... tires for these bad boys are fairly evenly matched... the Dunlop SP8000s for the GT-R (the record time was on these stock tires... not the RE01Rs that come on the "premium" model) and the ZR1's Pilot Sports... of course, the ZR1 would be faster if it had the ACR's tires... that'd be a sight to see... but it might not be enough to get close to the ACR... not without downforce... an extra few hundred pounds of downforce is a tremendous advantage.

---

Viper - usability - hahaha... my uncle finally sold his. Know what finally got to him? Wasn't the fact that you could never use more than part throttle when going down a rough road for fear of spinning... wasn't the fact that they broke half-a-dozen serpentine belts in the three years or so they had it... or the shoddy build... it was the damn run-flats... they need to be changed and the dealership is out of stock and there's a month-long waiting list.... seems not a lot of places sell run-flats in that ungodly size. That there's the straw that broke the camel's back...

Of the three, I'd say the ZR1 is the most usable car of the lot... reviewers are saying that it's probably the best-riding supercar ever... that suspension is marvelous. The GT-R, on the other hand, is rather stiff.

---

Hmmm... will be very interesting when the GT-R V-Spec comes out. Still, well played, Chrysler... well played.

 

[harrytuttle]

Its awesome to finally know what it is capable of.

Yep. Just as they're selling the brand.


Watching the video, it really doesn't look like an all-out lap: at least two missed shifts, lots of rev limiter hitting. It's like watching Boult in the 100M, jogging to the tape.

 

[Keef]

Yep. Just as they're selling the brand.


Watching the video, it really doesn't look like an all-out lap: at least two missed shifts, lots of rev limiter hitting. It's like watching Boult in the 100M, jogging to the tape.

I think it probably could have gone faster with some smoother driving. It looked to me like the guy rode the limiter in many situations where an upshift would have been more time consuming to begin with. There's nothing wrong with that technique.

 

[niky]

+1.... official explanation is: 5th gear would be useless on the back straight (top speed aero limited)... and the other times he's banging off the limiter, you can see that he's holding speed right before a turn...

If that weren't a flat-out lap, he actually wouldn't be missing shifts, wrestling with an obviously darty steering wheel and banging off the limiter.

 

[Venari]

So doesn't the Viper have 6 gears? I don't understand why he didn't put it into 5th even at the straight.. That would have boosted the time even more... I'm confused I must be missing something.

I think everything's pretty much been said about this, but my 2p...

... a 20% shorter axle ratio would mean that 3rd would have been a far more comfortable ratio for the times where he was 'bouncing' 2nd, and 5th would have been usable on the straight. That it has already been mentioned that the ratio couldn't be changed illustrates that his technique was deliberate.

However, missing two shifts due to the horribly packaged shifter illustrates how much of a compromise the Viper is as a road/race car. It's big, brutal and lumped with downforce to stop it spitting you off.

The ZR1 and GT-R, in comparison, are far better tools for the road. Someone mentioned that the gearbox is the same in the Viper as in the 'Vette. Wrong, the Viper is a T56, the 'Vette has the new TR6060 - and it's mounted in the back, not directly behind the engine as the Viper. The T56 is a bit long in the tooth now, and watching the two vids side by side, the cable shift and effort required by the ZR1 driver is obviously a huge improvement over the elbow battering topmounted direct rowing needed in the Viper.

I've always loved the Viper to look at, but every time I see inside one I just think I really wouldn't want to spend long there. I think that Dutch racer is probably feeling the same... apart from the two missed shifts, I spotted two other moments where he must have been clenching his buttcheeks together very tightly indeed.

 

[Tornado]

the cable shift and effort required by the ZR1 driver is obviously a huge improvement over the elbow battering topmounted direct rowing needed in the Viper.

The Viper was always like that. Even when they shared gearboxes the Viper was always akin to driving a truck.

 

[YSSMAN]

Its the same Tremec T56-based gearbox in the Viper, Corvette, GT500 (and up) Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, Commodore/VXR8/G8... Among others. Its crazy to think about how different the same gearbox can be in every car, but at least in my opinion, I'd expect it to be "brutal" in the Viper to begin with, so I'm willing to forgive.

 

[Jay]

Well they arn't all exactly the same, from memory the Vipers T56 has larger shafts and triple syncro's (which appear not to help very much).

 

[EA11R]

It's a very fast car indeed. In a recent comparo in a car magazine, some trackday cars were compared: A Porsche 911 GT2, A Dodge Viper ACR, and a Mazda MX-5 with some cup-like upgrades.

Naturally, the Mazda was way slower than the others, but the Viper got a 1:45 or so laptime, while the Porsche trailed by 1 second! And the Mazda by 8, while I'm talking about it. Kinda funny, how the prices of the cars were $50K, $100K, and nearly $200K. The ratios were powers of two!

So, it is indeed an unexpectedly fast car, and (just) under $100K at that!

 

[Tornado]

Well they arn't all exactly the same, from memory the Vipers T56 has larger shafts and triple syncro's (which appear not to help very much).

I think its mostly so the big monster engine doesn't lunch transmissions every few weeks.

 

[Dragonistic]

Reading through the entire thread start to finish has been an interesting journey.

Yes the ACR is using better tyres (or so we're lead to believe), yes it has downforce, but either way you can buy this car in the form it made that lap time, just as you can the others. This is barnyard engineering at it's best, I'm sure the ZR1 or GTR could do better with similar aeros and tyres, but until they have those, there's little point arguing it. It's like me saying well a Fiat 500 could beat them all if you changed ... well everything .

I like this car, I don't care why it's fast, how usuable it is on the roads, or even how fast it goes around the track. It's got that same Viper character, drive hard, go fast, have a very big accident and end up in hospital or worse. Thats all I have to say on the matter, and I won't be caught up in any of the arguments.

Oh and for the record I like all the cars involved in this whole Nurburgring fiasco, I wouldn't wanna choose a favourite.

 

[Jay]

I think its mostly so the big monster engine doesn't lunch transmissions every few weeks.

Yeah but that can also account for why shifting appears to be more forced.

 

[harrytuttle]

Hmmm... wonder if Nissan will consider adding a splitter or maybe even movable aero or ride height control after this stunt? ...a simple variable wing would give the Nissan a higher straightline speed than the ACR and similar downforce in corners... well... maybe not as much (for usable downforce, you really need a tall wing like the ACR's)... but maybe enough.

Speaking of this, have there been any road cars that used active aerodynamics (other than the McLaren F1's & SLR's air brake, and the 911's & Veyron's semi-moveable wing)? I suppose those examples count, but I'm looking for something that might have been banned from F1.

+1.... official explanation is: 5th gear would be useless on the back straight (top speed aero limited)... and the other times he's banging off the limiter, you can see that he's holding speed right before a turn...

Ah. Got it now (and thanks, Toronado). 👍

 

[niky]

Not many cars have active aerodynamics... but it would be a nice feature.

 

[gman07]

The ZR1 and GT-R, in comparison, are far better tools for the road. Someone mentioned that the gearbox is the same in the Viper as in the 'Vette. Wrong, the Viper is a T56, the 'Vette has the new TR6060 - and it's mounted in the back, not directly behind the engine as the Viper. The T56 is a bit long in the tooth now, and watching the two vids side by side, the cable shift and effort required by the ZR1 driver is obviously a huge improvement over the elbow battering topmounted direct rowing needed in the Viper.

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I thought this might be worthy of a mention. Apparently the 2010 Viper ACR has put down a 7:12.xxx: http://forums.viperclub.org/threads...ing-Today!!!?p=3000701&viewfull=1#post3000701

Now for more arguing over the qualifications of a "production car" and "R-compounds", etc...

Also, the 2008-2010 Vipers use the TR6060, not the T56.

 

[eSZee]

I read the part where the car went from a dealer, straight to a tuning shop at the ring before attempting the runs.

 

[Danoff]

It's funny, the discussion of the original lap focuses so much on the 2 missed gear changes and rev-limiter action, and people wonder why I don't like the old-fashioned antiquated gearboxes.

Paddle shifters FTW.