how do you tame the car with all aids off

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nissman
Ok here we go again. Are you saying a 5 ton car with sticky tyres has the best mechanical grip in low speed corners?

The main thing for good mechanical grip is suspension and not much more.
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Taking something to the extreme to make a point isn't always necessary. I could say then, "so you're saying something with sticky race slicks in a zero-g enviroment would stick to the road".

You do need weight. Weight obviously hurts cornering and acceleration so there are trade offs, but why do you think dragsters maximize weight transfer under acceleration? :dunce:
 
charliec
Taking something to the extreme to make a point isn't always necessary. I could say then, "so you're saying something with sticky race slicks in a zero-g enviroment would stick to the road".

You do need weight. Weight obviously hurts cornering and acceleration so there are trade offs, but why do you think dragsters maximize weight transfer under acceleration? :dunce:
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Mechanical grip has to do with suspension and tires. Not weight.

Weight transfer has nothing to do with mechanical grip.

Dragsters have nothing to do with corners.
 
freight48
Mechanical grip has to do with suspension and tires. Not weight.

Weight transfer has nothing to do with mechanical grip.

Dragsters have nothing to do with corners.
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But in a dragster weight will transfer from front to rear.
 
PawnBoy
But in a dragster weight will transfer from front to rear.
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Right, I'm not disputing that. But it has nothing to do with mechanical grip or corners which is what we were talking about until the charliec decided he wanted to steer the thread in another direction.
 
freight48
Mechanical grip has to do with suspension and tires. Not weight.

Weight transfer has nothing to do with mechanical grip.

Dragsters have nothing to do with corners.
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This isn't about cornering, this is about grip. Weight transfer will increase vertical force on the tires and increase grip.

No one is arguing that dead weight is a positive, but you can't pretend it doesn't affect grip.

Once you introduce cornering, that's entirely different, because that weight is now having to be turned, which means momentum. Just because there's an increase in grip doesn't mean that the grip will outweight the additional momentum...that's certainly not what I'm arguing.

I'm just saying that tire grip and weight are related.
 
Well this thread's a mess... Do we continue to argue about the pros/cons of weight, or talk about the original topic (How to control a vehicle with all driving aids off)?
 
PawnBoy
Well this thread's a mess... Do we continue to argue about the pros/cons of weight, or talk about the original topic (How to control a vehicle with all driving aids off)?
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:lol: this conversation is more fun :)

Plus I think OP already got an answer from the first response 👍
 
charliec
Taking something to the extreme to make a point isn't always necessary. I could say then, "so you're saying something with sticky race slicks in a zero-g enviroment would stick to the road".
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Dunno, havent driven on the moon yet.

You do need weight. Weight obviously hurts cornering and acceleration so there are trade offs, but why do you think dragsters maximize weight transfer under acceleration? :dunce:
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Only weight you need is the weight of the car and less you have it, the better. Especially in motorsport racing.

Dont know anything about dragster and dont care. What I do know they dont have anything to do with mechanical grip in low speed corners. Maybe becouse they dont corner. :dunce:

This isn't about cornering, this is about grip.
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No, it was about cornering.
 
freight48
Right, I'm not disputing that. But it has nothing to do with mechanical grip or corners which is what we were talking about until the charliec decided he wanted to steer the thread in another direction.
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I wasn't trying to steer this in another direction, but we should accurate. Weight transfer (even lateral) will change loads on the tires and give the loaded side more grip (and unnloaded tires less).

Weight plays a role in overall grip is all I'm saying. You and nissman were saying repeatedly it doesn't, which isn't true. I don't know why you're taking this as me saying "cars corner better when heavy" which I never said.
 
Fine then.

charliec, you're right in a sense. Increasing the mass of the vehicle will increase the friction between tires and road. But, the tires now need to do more work to accelerate the larger mass (vehicle) giving no net benefit. And increasing the mass of the vehicle doesn't increase the force of friction enough to compensate for the added mass, so it's actually a net loss.
 
nissman
Dunno, havent driven on the moon yet.

Only weight you need is the weight of the car and less you have it, the better. Especially in motorsport racing.

Dont know anything about dragster and dont care. What I do know they dont have anything to do with mechanical grip in low speed corners. Maybe becouse they dont corner. :dunce:
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Good thing physics works the same for everyone 👍
 
arvore
Use manual gearing:p;)
And Caps in the beginning of sentences also,btw!
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And NOT caps in the middle of sentences, and spaces after commas... :rolleyes:

arvore
But You don't know(want) how to Capitalize do You?!:sly:

It's like gearing...before You go full throttle on a sentence You engage caps lock.💡
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And spaces after ellipses, and 'You' and 'Capitalize' not capitalized in the middle of sentences, and spaces before brackets.

People in glass houses should not throw stones... :banghead:
 
charliec
I wasn't trying to steer this in another direction, but we should accurate. Weight transfer (even lateral) will change loads on the tires and give the loaded side more grip (and unnloaded tires less).

Weight plays a role in overall grip is all I'm saying. You and nissman were saying repeatedly it doesn't, which isn't true. I don't know why you're taking this as me saying "cars corner better when heavy" which I never said.
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Yeah, apparently I've been misunderstanding you... whoops
 
nissman
No, it was about cornering.
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No where have I said that a heavier car will corner better. I've been trying to say that weight on the tires has an effect on grip.

100kgs of downforce works the same way as 100kgs of dead weight in that it creates the same amount of vertical force on the tires. The difference is downforce doesn't increase momentum while dead weight does. This doesn't matter to the tires though as all they see is 100kgs of extra downward force. The momentum difference is what affects the cornering. No where have I denied this.

Weight is related to grip, whether it is transferred weight, dead weight, or downforce. You can't pick out one or more things and say that it isn't related, because honestly, the tires don't know the difference. The only thing that changes is how that vertical force is applied (evenly, transferred, etc) and how much grip is required to get around a corner at a certain speed, which will obviously increase with additional mass.

Make sense? :)
 
What i was saying that the discussion before you came was about cornering at low speeds and you turn it to how weight effects tyres.

You cant say that 100 kg of dowforce that is a achived in a high speed corner has the same effect on a car as 100 kg of dead weight in a low speed corner. These two things effect the car very differentlly. Weight ofcourse pushes down on tyres but to much of it and it will push the car out of corner.
So additional mass will not help a car around a slow corner.
 
Smoothness! is the key. Lower gear ratio , Using a lower boost turbo and making that torque curve as smooth as possible.
 
The key is precise input control. That is why steering wheels pwn.

Precise throttle = higher speeds coming out of corners, control the wheelspin

Precise steering = more steady cornering, while also being faster, don't over steer or over accelerate

Precise braking = slow and steady braking will keep you on your driving line and keep you from sliding (regardless of ABS)

Manual tranny = ability to use engine braking (greatly reduces stopping distance)

That is how thee tamed thy beast.
 
nissman
What i was saying that the discussion before you came was about cornering at low speeds and you turn it to how weight effects tyres.

You cant say that 100 kg of dowforce that is a achived in a high speed corner has the same effect on a car as 100 kg of dead weight in a low speed corner. These two things effect the car very differentlly. Weight ofcourse pushes down on tyres but to much of it and it will push the car out of corner.
So additional mass will not help a car around a slow corner.
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You still miss my point, nevermind 👍
 
nissman
Still dont get this.
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Mass has momentum, so if you increase the mass of a car (through adding ballast), this additional mass carries additional momentum into a corner.

Let's say you add 100kgs of downforce to 1 car (at a predetermined cornering speed) and 100kgs of ballast to another car. When those two cars go into a corner, they'll have the same "weight" as measured on the tires, but the car with ballast will have more momentum and would require more grip to corner as effectively.

This is also not taking into additional effects of mass, such as center of gravity, body roll, etc.
 
charliec
Mass has momentum, so if you increase the mass of a car (through adding ballast), this additional mass carries additional momentum into a corner.
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Ok now I get your point and I see you dont have a clue what your talking about.

My time in this thread is done. See ya around...
 
nissman
Ok now I get your point and I see you dont have a clue what your talking about.

My time in this thread is done. See ya around...
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:lol: what exactly is incorrect about that? Last time I checked momentum was calculated with mass and velocity?
 
Looking for e-fights as usual,eh?
The couple last of "vacations" didn't do any good,ahn?!:ouch::rolleyes:



Use manual gearing
And Caps in the beginning of sentences also,btw!

And NOT caps in the middle of sentences, and spaces after commas...
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Caps like in "Caps lock",the key board key,You know...:rolleyes:

arvore
But You don't know(want) how to Capitalize do You?!

It's like gearing...before You go full throttle on a sentence You engage caps lock.
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and 'You' and 'Capitalize' not capitalized in the middle of sentences
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I usually refer to others with a capital letter and it made sense to Capitalize the "capitalize" word as a graphical example of what he should do,in the said context,but if You feel that my posts break the AUP feel free to report them.
I gave a tip to a new member on "create a thread in every 5 minutes" spree,before I report him after realizing he was not going to abide the AUP even after my first friendly tip.I advice to act in accordance.👍


And spaces after ellipses, and spaces before brackets.
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Those are not grammar rules,so not included in the AUP.

People in glass houses should not throw stones...
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Yeah,they shouldn't...but You have yet to realize that,uh?!:dunce:
 
Destinkeys
And spaces after ellipses, and 'You' and 'Capitalize' not capitalized in the middle of sentences, and spaces before brackets.

People in glass houses should not throw stones... :banghead:
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Beginning sentences with "and" as well as using commas followed by "and" repeatedly isn't proper grammar either. Plus your sentence had no real action either, it's just a list.

Someone is sure to find something wrong in my typing but I really don't care. :p

But to be somewhat on topic, a manual transmission helps a great deal by giving you more direct control over the vehicle. You'll also need to not just mash the accelerator the entire time. Even the face buttons on the controller are pressure sensitive so you can go easy on them for better corner exits.
 
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nissman
Ok now I get your point and I see you dont have a clue what your talking about.

My time in this thread is done. See ya around...
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:indiff:

Wait, did you just remember that weight and mass are two different things? Physics, how do they work? :dopey:
 
Ok lol....you said, that you never said that a heavier car corners better.

Than you said, if you add ballast to a car wich is weight or mass whatever you wanna call it, it will corner better.

Am I correct ?
 

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