How many cars should GT6 have?

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Yes, "nobody" knows the exact arrangements.

However,

With 12million copies of the GT5 project shipped, it is safe to say that PD generate a lot of money (over $1billion) for Sony to afford them a large budget and plenty of development time.

But really, the crux of my point was that some people seem to act as if another GT PS3 game is the only way PD are ever going to make money, when there is a great opportunity for GT6:P to be a PS4 launch title, with GT6 12-18 months later, and then GT7 two/three years down the road.

I don't think that was the point at all. The first game on the "PS4" will be very, very expensive. Just as this first game on PS3 was very, very expensive.

In this case, with the (unexpected?) buoyancy from GT5:P, and GT5, it's not likely a GT6:P would be "needed", financially speaking, especially with DLC. Instead we can expect GT6 to fall straight out, if it's to be on PS3.
If GT6 is PS4-bound, then a GT6:P on PS3 is pointless, and we're left with a four year gap, as a minimum, before we see anything. GT4 was "only" four years after GT3, but we (well, some / most of us) still got GT4:P a year before that and a "concept" game two years before that.

So you see, it's a bit of a pickle; they cannot "afford" (in the teenage popularity stakes) to repeat the wait for GT5 with GT6 (/ Prologue), but releasing the next game on the next console will lead to exactly that. EDIT: It was three years between GT4 and GT5:P, a further two and a half to GT5. So, actually, GT6 (/ Prologue) on PS4 is technically a longer wait, the longest yet, in fact.
 
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Griffith500
it's not likely a GT6:P would be "needed"
It doesn't matter whether it's needed or not: with GT5:P selling over 5million, you can almost guarantee Sony will want another one.

It brings in extra income and it also buys Polyphony some time, as it placates fans' agitation about waiting for the next full version as they'll have something GT-related to play in the meantime.

GT6:P as a PS4 launch title, with GT6 12-18 months later seems to make the most sense to me. That then gives them plenty of scope to release GT7 on PS4 two/three years down the line.
 
It doesn't matter whether it's needed or not: with GT5:P selling over 5million, you can almost guarantee Sony will want another one.

It brings in extra income and it also buys Polyphony some time, as it placates fans' agitation about waiting for the next full version as they'll have something GT-related to play in the meantime.

GT6:P as a PS4 launch title, with GT6 12-18 months later seems to make the most sense to me. That then gives them plenty of scope to release GT7 on PS4 two/three years down the line.

So, if GT6:P is a launch title, when will that be exactly? Next year? The year after? The year after that?

I would suggest that it would be later rather than sooner, so I don't think giving us more of the same in the waiting department is really going to placate anything, especially after we've been told we won't have to wait as long this time for GT6 proper.
 
I am sure when the next Forza comes out on Microsofts next console and we still haven't heard any word about gt6 people will be crying up a storm.
 
So, if GT6:P is a launch title, when will that be exactly? Next year? The year after? The year after that?
Whenever it is, it makes more sense having a GT game closer to the launch of PS4 than further down the road. I would also say that GT6:P on PS4 would help placate the fans in the interim, as large part of the appeal it that is on new hardware.

Griffith500
especially after we've been told we won't have to wait as long this time for GT6 proper.
Aside from Kaz saying a lot of things (and his boss Yoshida saying their next project will take a few years), what timeline was he talking about? Was he talking about the wait from GT4 to GT5 i.e. six years? So if GT6 releases in 2015, he's kept his promise.
 
So, if GT6:P is a launch title, when will that be exactly? Next year? The year after? The year after that?

I would suggest that it would be later rather than sooner, so I don't think giving us more of the same in the waiting department is really going to placate anything, especially after we've been told we won't have to wait as long this time for GT6 proper.

I am sure when the next Forza comes out on Microsofts next console and we still haven't heard any word about gt6 people will be crying up a storm.

👍👍

I expect GT6 to come out "on time" for PS4 only if there isn't a Prologue.

I'm looking at GT5 as GT6's Prologue, because of the unexpected early release GT5 wasn't ready for. Kaz said Prologue was like beta-testing for GT5. He mentioned that his ideas wouldn't be enough to make a complete GT5.

Eurogamer: You've been working on the game for over five years. How hard was it to say 'we've done enough'? Would you have liked more time?
Kazunori Yamauchi: Of course that's true and it would have been nice to have more time, but at one point we have to release the game because my imagination alone is not enough to make the game evolve to where we want it to go. We really need to listen to the voice of our citizens and see what they want out of the experience and evolve with that.

However, the team does see a light at the end of the tunnel. Yamauchi confirmed that the team was shooting for a release in December 2008. He also noted that Prologue should be viewed as not only a hearty sample of the full game, but also a beta test of sorts meant to allow feedback on the engine.
 
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Whenever it is, it makes more sense having a GT game closer to the launch of PS4 than further down the road. I would also say that GT6:P on PS4 would help placate the fans in the interim, as large part of the appeal it that is on new hardware.

It would be nice to have a GT game at the PS4's launch, no doubt, but that still leaves a potentially large gap up to that point. It makes sense to fill that gap, financially as well as functionally: GT5 is nowhere near its potential on the current hardware. Think about the evolution from GT3 to GT4.
Aside from Kaz saying a lot of things (and his boss Yoshida saying their next project will take a few years), what timeline was he talking about? Was he talking about the wait from GT4 to GT5 i.e. six years? So if GT6 releases in 2015, he's kept his promise.

Except that that six-ish year stretch was interrupted by GT5:P (and GTPSP, technically, but that's on different hardware.) There has never been a gap of more than three years between consecutive releases before, and I'm including Prologues etc. because you're stating a Prologue at PS4 launch is OK, which means even longer before GT6 proper.
 
Griffith500
because you're stating a Prologue at PS4 launch is OK, which means even longer before GT6 proper.
Well, I wasn't saying it's OK, I was basing this on the fact that GT4 and GT5 have both had Prologue versions, and together have sold over 6.5m copies... why wouldn't Sony want another one? It brings in extra revenue, boosts the GT-shipped numbers and gives us all something GT-related to be playing in the meantime.

If GT6 is good to go close to launch of PS4, then that's great. But given the relative success of the Prologue versions, you would think Sony will do the same again. One would hope next time though that GT6 will follow a Prologue version in a timely manner, as opposed to GT5, which came two and a half years later; or close to three years in Japan.
 
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Well, I wasn't saying it's OK, I was basing this on the fact that GT4 and GT5 have both had Prologue versions, and together have sold over 6.5m copies... why wouldn't Sony want another one? It brings in extra revenue, boosts the GT-shipped numbers and gives us all something GT-related to be playing in the meantime.

If GT6 is good to go close to launch of PS4, then that's great. But given the relative success of the Prologue versions, you would think Sony will do the same again. One would hope next time though that GT6 will follow a Prologue version in a timely manner, as opposed to GT5, which came two and a half years later; or close to three years in Japan.

The issue is not whether a Prologue game is necessary or not. It's the length of time between now and the launch of the PS4, or whatever the hell the rumour-mongers are calling it.

There might be scope for PD to release a GT6:P this year, or next, with the full game to follow; all on the PS3. But there is no chance of a GT6:P on PS3 and the full title on PS4, at any point after its launch.
In that sense, what you're suggesting is that PD forego their release scheduling of over a decade, stretch the gap out by years, just so that they can get their next game (whatever extra significance it apparently has) out on PS4.

Why is it so imperative that they do so? Why can't they make use of the existing architecture (game) they've barely even scratched the surface of for at least one more run before the PS4 appears? What is so bad about that premise?
Why not GT7:P as a PS4 launch game?
 
There might be scope for PD to release a GT6:P this year, or next, with the full game to follow; all on the PS3

I think next year makes very perfect sense. Next November will be 3 years since GT5's release. It's been my theory for some time. 👍

Why is it so imperative that they do so? Why can't they make use of the existing architecture (game) they've barely even scratched the surface of for at least one more run before the PS4 appears? What is so bad about that premise?
Why not GT7:P as a PS4 launch game?

Anxious gamers are so distracted by the arrival and anticipation of the new consoles that they only think of the future. Like a child in a candy store, they cannot contain themselves. But then again, we're all simply speculating.
 
Why can't they make use of the existing architecture (game) they've barely even scratched the surface of for at least one more run before the PS4 appears? What is so bad about that premise?
Why not GT7:P as a PS4 launch game?
If Polyphony were an efficient developer, one with a proven record of hitting deadlines and delivering games in a timely manner, then maybe this could work. In reality however, Polyphony are anything but. Having them develop a full GT title for PS3 this late in the day will likely only push a GT for PS4 further back, and Sony don't want that to happen.

This is also in addition to Cell almost certainly being ditched with PS4, so what have they got to gain by developing another one? They won't be able to solve the big technological issues in GT5 because the PS3 is too crippled, especially for all the alpha they're trying to push.

It seems we just fundamentally disagree, Griffith. I see full GT PS3 development at this point as a complete waste of time.
 
If Polyphony were an efficient developer, one with a proven record of hitting deadlines and delivering games in a timely manner, then maybe this could work. In reality however, Polyphony are anything but. Having them develop a full GT title for PS3 this late in the day will likely only push a GT for PS4 further back, and Sony don't want that to happen.

This is also in addition to Cell almost certainly being ditched with PS4, so what have they got to gain by developing another one? They won't be able to solve the big technological issues in GT5 because the PS3 is too crippled, especially for all the alpha they're trying to push.

It seems we just fundamentally disagree, Griffith. I see full GT PS3 development at this point as a complete waste of time.

Once again, what do you mean by 'this late in the day'? Yes the PS3 is old now but a PS4 HAS NOT been announced. It isn't just around the corner, there are plenty of big PS3 games coming out throughout this year and into next year and GT6 could easily be one of them.

Also again it's not like they started developing GT6 yesterday, they started on it before GT5 even shipped.
 
PS4 HAS NOT been announced.
That means what, exactly?

Do you think developers wait until consoles are announced before they start working next gen games?
Do you think developers only get dev-kits when consoles are announced?
Do you think Sony are just going to casually admit to PS4 development and share its release and development schedule for prying eyes i.e. Microsoft to see?
Do you think next gen planning only starts when consoles are announced?

This makes no sense. Sony are sure to be looking for a better GT situation on PS4; one that doesn't involve a main GT releasing some four years after the console shipped. And PS4 not being officially announced won't stop them doing that.
 
No, my point was that people go on about the PS4 as if it already exists. Sure it's coming but nobody knows when and until it's announced it's going to be at least a year away after that, maybe more. Wii U for example was announced at E3 2011 but won't be out until Q4 2012, some eighteen months later. If for arguments sake PS4 was announced at E3 this year and followed that same pattern it wouldn't be on the market until Q4 2013.

So my point was in the meantime there is plenty of time for another PS3 game which can then be followed by a PS4 game 3+ years later.
 
If Polyphony were an efficient developer, one with a proven record of hitting deadlines and delivering games in a timely manner, then maybe this could work. In reality however, Polyphony are anything but. Having them develop a full GT title for PS3 this late in the day will likely only push a GT for PS4 further back, and Sony don't want that to happen.

This is also in addition to Cell almost certainly being ditched with PS4, so what have they got to gain by developing another one? They won't be able to solve the big technological issues in GT5 because the PS3 is too crippled, especially for all the alpha they're trying to push.

It seems we just fundamentally disagree, Griffith. I see full GT PS3 development at this point as a complete waste of time.

I'm not talking about technical issues!

I'm talking about expanding the game! What "technical issues" in GT3 were "solved" for GT4? The PS3 is not "crippled" now any more than when it was launched, there is no wasted energy in re-using a platform that is already optimised for the Cell / RSX, only with extra bells and whistles and lots more content added on.

Why would PD halt all development on the PS3 (after 18 months of working on it for what, DLC?) when the PS4 isn't even set in stone yet? Why waste time developing for hardware that doesn't exist and could change at a moment's notice? I'm sure they know roughly where they're aiming in terms of "performance", but a thorough understanding of the actual hardware (i.e. having it in your hands) is critical in extracting the most from it.

It's irrelevant anyway, because PD abandoning the PS3 and doing... nothing just isn't going to happen in the real world.
 
Forza did it right with less cars but full quality for all of the cars. or go all out and make all the cars premium that's in GT5.
 
Griffith500
What "technical issues" in GT3 were "solved" for GT4?
I think you just proved my point. There were no tech issues to solve because there was no copious alpha, no dynamic weather and no dynamic time, because they weren't doing them. PD had no problem in taking GT3 and just bolting on more cars, tracks and features, and I have never disagreed that a GT6 with more cars/ tracks, more pertinent features and more logical design could easily work on PS3. That game should have been GT5.

But the point is that the tech make-up of GT5 cannot be improved for GT6, unless they take something out, or downgrade another part to make room. The PS3 is crippled, because it is totally unsuited to handling the amount of alpha that GT5 is trying to push. They are not running alpha with 1/16th size buffers for kicks; they're doing it for a reason. This is not going to change with another GT PS3. That's even before we get to the shadows.

You said yourself that the platform they are using is optimized for Cell/RSX. Well if it is (and there's no reason to assume that it's not) then it's not going to improve, is it. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would much rather have my next GT experience on hardware that is actually capable of handling what Polyphony are trying to do, because PS3 can't do it. It won't do it tomorrow, next year or in twenty years.

It's irrelevant anyway, because PD abandoning the PS3 and doing... nothing just isn't going to happen in the real world.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Continuing to model cars and tracks is not "doing nothing"; nor is continuing research into improving the simulation "doing nothing". The logical extension of your argument is seemingly that because PS4 is not announced or set in stone, developers can't do anything.

Surely you must realise how absurd that statement is, as well as being at odds with the fact that in-development hardware frequently changes.
 
GT5 shouldn't have the usual over abundance of cars, but it shouldn't have a lot of standards either. maybe >600.
 
I think you just proved my point. There were no tech issues to solve because there was no copious alpha, no dynamic weather and no dynamic time, because they weren't doing them. PD had no problem in taking GT3 and just bolting on more cars, tracks and features, and I have never disagreed that a GT6 with more cars/ tracks, more pertinent features and more logical design could easily work on PS3. That game should have been GT5.

But the point is that the tech make-up of GT5 cannot be improved for GT6, unless they take something out, or downgrade another part to make room. The PS3 is crippled, because it is totally unsuited to handling the amount of alpha that GT5 is trying to push. They are not running alpha with 1/16th size buffers for kicks; they're doing it for a reason. This is not going to change with another GT PS3. That's even before we get to the shadows.

You said yourself that the platform they are using is optimized for Cell/RSX. Well if it is (and there's no reason to assume that it's not) then it's not going to improve, is it. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would much rather have my next GT experience on hardware that is actually capable of handling what Polyphony are trying to do, because PS3 can't do it. It won't do it tomorrow, next year or in twenty years.

I'm sure it's all the alpha channel's fault, that one step in the rendering pipeline, that one component of a functioning game engine. That's why there aren't any online leaderboards, right?
You seem to be confusing "graphics" with "game".

There must have been "tech issues" with GT3 and GT4, otherwise GT5 would have had nothing to improve upon, technically. 💡
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Continuing to model cars and tracks is not "doing nothing"; nor is continuing research into improving the simulation "doing nothing". The logical extension of your argument is seemingly that because PS4 is not announced or set in stone, developers can't do anything.

Surely you must realise how absurd that statement is, as well as being at odds with the fact that in-development hardware frequently changes.

"Modeling" (including physics) is not the sum total of "developing a game". I was going to make the point about "side-projects"; I bet there's stuff cooking over at PD towers that can't even be put into the next gen, at least not in a fully functioning racing game like GT.
Making the game, then, is putting all the pieces together on a framework built to run on specific hardware. The latter of which is only possible with the real hardware to hand, or with emulators (bear in mind that the PS3 can be used to emulate a PS1, but not a PS2).

If the hardware "frequently changes" (it's not even been made yet) then no work can be done on that framework. They'll work roughly towards something like it, but until they know exactly what registers and operations units, instructions etc. etc. they have to play with, none of it can be tested and optimised, which is the real meat of the development, especially for a top-tier game like GT. I've no doubt that PD have special hardware they use to prototype new features, or render "in-engine" trailers, but they aren't the hardware we all have.

You still haven't explained why a GT5 with more cars, tracks, racing, customisability, online / social options, game modes etc. is a bad thing. None of that eats into a PS4 game, because it's mostly content / systems that will be carried over or recycled. GT6 on PS3 is but a rest-stop on the same path to PS4-land.
 
Do you think developers only get dev-kits when consoles are announced?
Do you think developers get decent dev kits when consoles are most likely more than a year away from being announced (since we already know it won't be at E3 this year and Sony always announces hardware at E3)?
 
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Do you think developers get decent dev kits when consoles are most likely more than a year away from being announced (since we already know it won't be at E3 this year and Sony always announces hardware at E3)?

I think and believe that are different subjects. Maybe the raw material is there (cars/tracks/ideas) the issue will be perfecting/tweaking it to the console limitations, or improvement if there any time frame for it.
 
Griffith500
You still haven't explained why a GT5 with more cars, tracks, racing, customisability, online / social options, game modes etc. is a bad thing.
A GT5 with all those things wouldn't be a problem, and that's what GT5 should have been. I have never said it would a bad thing, and in fact have repeatedly said there would be no problem. But at this stage, developing all those and making GT6 for PS4 would be my choice.

And that's it really. It seems like you're either on the side of GT6 PS3 or GT6 PS4. I'm on the latter. I think I've explained enough why.

Do you think developers get decent dev kits when consoles are most likely more than a year away from being announced (since we already know it won't be at E3 this year and Sony always announces hardware at E3)?
Alpha 360's devkits in early 2004 were essentially a Mac G5; compare that to the 360 devkit developers have today, it's quite a difference, huh? Of course developers are going to get improved kits once time goes on. That does not mean however that you can't do anything in the interim. That will be especially true if Sony go with an all AMD-solution, as the PC environment is unbelievably mature; more than Cell could ever hope to be.

And also, Sony do not always announce hardware at E3. PS2 was not announced at E3 and nor was Vita.
 
Sselecta
I'd rather see quality over quantity. The total amount of cars doesn't tell me anything. It'll be completely pointless as long as they're still worthless Kei-cars, sedans or duplicates/other versions of the already ''premium'' cars.

Pick out what you, Polyphony Digital, think are the most iconic and popular european, american and asian cars, make them all ''premium'' and let us properly modify them visually. I don't care about the numbers or the ten other versions of the very same car. I just want reasonable content.

Unless this doesn't happen, I can never see myself buying neither the next installment nor a new console.

All u know is tht I love having my slow awesome standard cars like the Honda odyssey for example. I love it. Some of the coolest cars are better being standards. But then again if they made all the cool standards cars premium.... AWESOMENESS. :)
 
I just don't want no duplicates of the same car theres no point of them, and standard cars ever again to be honest. I want to see more variety and different cars. Such as Smart, Land Rover, Spyker, Pontiac, Caterham, Buick, Morgan, and others to add more and different cars to the game.
 
A GT5 with all those things wouldn't be a problem, and that's what GT5 should have been. I have never said it would a bad thing, and in fact have repeatedly said there would be no problem. But at this stage, developing all those and making GT6 for PS4 would be my choice.

And that's it really. It seems like you're either on the side of GT6 PS3 or GT6 PS4. I'm on the latter. I think I've explained enough why.

It doesn't make any sense. You go against all logic, stating that a GT5 with all those extra things would be nice, but you'd rather just wait. Well, here's the thing, a GT5 with all those things could easily be a GT6, and it will have zero impact on the next gen games. It's irrelevant anyway, because you'll just be disappointed either way now.
Alpha 360's devkits in early 2004 were essentially a Mac G5; compare that to the 360 devkit developers have today, it's quite a difference, huh? Of course developers are going to get improved kits once time goes on. That does not mean however that you can't do anything in the interim. That will be especially true if Sony go with an all AMD-solution, as the PC environment is unbelievably mature; more than Cell could ever hope to be.

And also, Sony do not always announce hardware at E3. PS2 was not announced at E3 and nor was Vita.

The next Playstation will not be anything like an off-the-shelf AMD solution. It will be as bespoke as they've always been, i.e. not "mature".
Oh and those alpha X360 "devkits" were not code compatible with the final hardware. Also: Microsoft.

But even if it really is that easy, it shouldn't take PD too long to get up to speed once the console is finalised. I mean, their main development environment, for prototyping, modeling etc. is probably all x86.
 
Griffith500
It's irrelevant anyway, because you'll just be disappointed either way now.
Griffith500
The next Playstation will not be anything like an off-the-shelf AMD solution. It will be as bespoke as they've always been, i.e. not "mature".

I think I'll save these for my lesson in hindsight. Nothing is confirmed at this stage, and either of us could end up disappointed.

Oh and those alpha X360 "devkits" were not code compatible with the final hardware.
Thanks for proving my point. Again.
 
I think I'll save these for my lesson in hindsight. Nothing is confirmed at this stage, and either of us could end up disappointed.

Thanks for proving my point. Again.

Don't you see that working on pre-final next-gen hardware (especially something as disparate as a PowerMac G5 is from the Xenon, which is only a compound of mildly modified PPEs from the Cell) is not so far removed from working on the current-gen hardware? Neither can be used in a final next-gen game.
I imagine there's very little actual work to be done on next-gen code right now without going ahead and just making the game (only to have the specs change), or prototyping, which is platform agnostic (e.g. proofs of concept). So... they might as well spend the rest of their time on the current hardware, too.

Saying PD shouldn't work on a PS3 game because of graphical "issues" and an imagined exclusivity between PS3 development and PS4 development at this early stage is quite simply nonsense. Development for PS3, in terms of content (cars, tracks, online, etc.) and as long as the PS4 isn't finalised, is development for the PS4.

Lessons learned from prototyping for the next-gen, e.g. in physics, can be fed back into the current-gen stuff, for example by way of tweaking values or modifying behaviours, without changing the performance impact. They are not entirely mutually exclusive; there is plenty of useful overlap.
You'd better hope the upcoming GTAcademy demo doesn't include any unique code or content, otherwise PD will have wasted their time, by your reckoning!
 
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