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Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5' started by EJRocky, Jul 15, 2009.
What is he making up? Many cars do only have one wing, or none at all.
It's inaccurate at best, trollbait or plain ignorance at worst.
What has that (Admittedly silly image) got to do with him saying some cars only have one wing choice? Some have, so I don't know why that particular point was something called out as 'making things up'.
It was the trigger for the entire thread of conversation; his point was that Kaz does not allow customisation. It was pointed out that GT5 is full of things that prove otherwise, their being poorly implemented (in many cases worse than they were in GT4, or GT2 depending on how you measure it) is irrelevant - they wouldn't even exist if customisation was not allowed.
The argument was repeatedly deflected and steered away from the key point, this arrogant, self-centred idea that a game lacking the "features" a certain individual wants means the game's creator is automatically a bad person in some way.
Once again: Kaz has stated that a livery editor is coming to Gran Turismo, but not GT5. Clearly a man who is keen to stamp out originality in all its forms...
I know all that, I just simply picked out what was said:
And wondered why he was insinuating that some cars only having one wing was made up. It's not. That's all.
if we do get a livey editor, i dont think it would be that complex to able to create some of the liveries posted, just not gonna happen
You can't be serious
But not every car only has one wing option - that is exaggeration. Then there's all the unfounded accusations and veiled insults that came with it.
Once again, it isn't about only having one wing to choose from (sometimes), it's about projecting disappointment with a commercial product into fantastical claims of despotism on the part of its creator. Ridiculous.
Chalk flew up.
He's both serious and right. To even imply Kaz intentionally nerfed Feature X because he has some personal vendetta against the player is stupid; and it's stupid on both sides of the argument (because people like to use that idea as a rallying point in support of Kaz against features they don't want as well).
I don't believe he said every car has only one wing. Again, I know the whole thing was ridiculous. I chose to purely pick up on one thing said by one person, that's all.
Odd - I thought this was a thread about a livery editor in the GT series, not Kaz?
Can we get this back on topic please.
There was no intention of a reasoned argument.
To be fair, it all started with the insinuation that we won't be getting a livery editor because Kaz is evil.
And I would agree that it's nonsense to take it the other way, that Kaz is some sort of saint, but I think the creator of the game might have some say on the inclusion of one of its most wanted features, and he did himself say that it would be coming eventually; so, if we are off-topic, it's partly Kaz's fault anyway!
Well back to topic then..
I don't know how it works technically, but wouldn't most of the work be done in the menus, creating the livery itself (and in that case, very easy on resources)? Surely once the design is created it can be saved as a texture and applied to the car, like any other texture. Sure it would need to be details and not turn into a pixelated mess, but I'm sure the game could manage some extra textures. The hardest work will be the back end, the actual editor, to make it all work.
It depends on how they actually use textures on the current (Premium) cars. If they use fancy methods of space allocation to get the absolute best texture quality per car (think headlamps vs., say, a liveried racing car) then a livery editor will introduce a lot of variability, and the average quality will be somewhere down with the existing liveried efforts in the game, potentially worse without hand optimisation of texture packing (actually a non-trivial problem in computing; it can be done, but it's typically hard / slow to get optimal results every time - see Packing problem, specifically this one). Then there are things algorithms can't do like deliberately sacrificing texture quality in one area, e.g. by reducing the horizontal resolution of a name badge, because it's not noticeable to us. Most road cars are mostly paint, which is handled with pixel and vertex shaders (although something must be "masking" those painted areas off) - these cars will need special attention to ensure a livery can be accommodated with the existing texture distribution on the model.
This is exactly the sort of thing that PD seem to excel at, although it's likely to introduce limitations that may well be frustrating, such that it might be better (for some people) just to live with a lower apparent texture resolution (i.e. worse than most cars already in the game).
I would tend to agree with you that the UI and "backend" for the editor is probably the biggest challenge. PD's UIs haven't been that great recently, from a usability standpoint, so it's something they'll really need to look into. No doubt they'll want some "social" aspect to it, too, which is another area they're likely to "mess up", in some people's view.
Griffo you love to complicate things. Have you seen the updated textures for the standard cars? PD didn't make new textures at all, they just slapped some hi-res logos here and there in low-res textures.
There's nothing blocking them from making a 4096x4096 HD texture for a standard car, they just don't bother.
when was this stated? 2006?
There aren't any "updated" textures on the Standards, except some of them seem to pull from the pool of premium headlamp normal maps / shaders, and the number of such cars has been steadily rising since release. But that's not the same thing as covering an entire car.
Where might they put those 4k textures, even if they could be "bothered" to "make" them?
It would be a waste of time, for starters. If they have assets that can easily make the jump, then sure. Do them. But as far as retexturing a mass amount of meshes that they are just almost certainly going to throw out anyway for the next game?
And to what end? It isn't like that can be done instantly, so they would be throwing a bunch of work at something that wouldn't be done for a long while, only to dump it. That isn't to say that the more terrible looking Standard cars (CLK-DTM, some GT3-era JGTC cars, etc.) wouldn't benefit greatly from a retexturing, but the returns aren't going to be worth the effort outside of those handful of cars because the meshes themselves are so poor (Diablo GT-1).
If you look the textures of some standard race cars you can see some updated logos in low-res textures. They did it about a year ago, after the shader update. If I remember correctly you can see them in some LMP, DTM cars and the red NSX LM.
My PS3 has 250gb. There's enough space here. I'm not saying they must do it, I'm saying they can do it and there's much less drama involved of what you are thinking. They already know how to handle different shaders for different effects in the same car, (matte, chrome, gloss, etc).
Basically, from 2006 to 20?? for a user interface, that's quite a record.
PS: No, I'm not saying they have to convert all standard textures to HD. -.- tornado facepalm.
Technically speaking there's nothing stopping them, which means a livery editor it's all about creating a user interface.
Again, that sounds like taking logos from a pool of incidental detail textures and swapping them for the same incidentals on the original car, and points to quite a complicated texturing scheme (as I'd suspected.) It seems PD have tried to cut down on duplicating logos and such. It's still not the same as covering an entire car. Oh, and there were some cars (still are) whose default LoD is incorrectly set - the "famous" one being that Daihatsu Move, another one that I know is still affected is the 2.0 GT Legacy - they look worse than they did in GT4.
No offence intended, but you seem to have a lot of misconceptions. I did say they could go the "low drama" route of just accepting a drop in quality; except, of course, the drama would be in the fora instead.
It's all well and good having 250 GB of storage, but the CPU and GPU do their operations in system and video memory, of which there is only 512 MB combined. That means the liveries that get displayed on the cars when you race them are subject to that limit - you could well use a 4k texture to draw your livery on, but it won't help in a race, or even in photomode, to a lesser extent.
What's with the 2006 comments, anyway?
They could unlock the bloody paint can.
No they cleaned up the textures, by no means are they high res, abit sadly there better than the textures in most racing games XD , im looking at forza ai and motor storm apocalypse ai textures =/