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Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5' started by EJRocky, Jul 15, 2009.
The article was from an interview in 2010, you didn't read it did you
The picture isn't related to the article and in the article he said "Probably not for GT5". That they want to work on it has nothing to do with the fact that it's not in GT5! And I wasn't even remotely talking about if I want a livery editor or not, I only wrote that it is not a minor thing to add, but more something pretty major!
Not meaning to sound rude, but what are you doing in this thread then?
On-topic; MCLA had the system down perfectly; I was able to get;
Have you even followed the god damn conversation? I replied because Slashfan called the livery editor a "minor thing". I just wanted to clarify that implementing a livery editor is a huge task to do and most likely nothing we will see in an update for GT5.
Jeez, got it now?
EDIT: And now please stop acting like being oh so smart, when you don't even get the posts you quoted yourself.
If GT5 did have a livery editor, I would probably use it to make replicas of the BMW's and Corvettes which race in the American Le Mans Series. However, it would take too much effort and all I would end up doing would be applying racing stripes and numbers to the car as well as some windscreen decals.
It's been a long day so excuse me.
You would end up doing something you would end up not doing?
I'm not trying to be smart, because I'm not, that's just your perception bro. I had no problem with your analysis of Slashfan's point The conversation between you and I started here;
Yes and my reply was perfectly fine for this part of your post:
Again, no, because for the reasons I've posted above and it also doesn't change that PD showed the livery editor on a target plan for GTHD and not GT5.
And by the way, I am a Beta tester for ACR since months and I Beta tested SuperCar Challenge, so yes, I know Eutechnyx.
EDIT: Again, I am not saying it's impossible, but it is not so easy to implement like you seem to think ("If Eutechnyx can do it, shouldn't PD be able too?").
Sounds legit, that I agree with,
And I aimed the statement about not knowing Eutychynx at everybody, not you specifically, I proably should have made that clearer
So basically you're saying that Eutechnyx, Codemasters, Turn 10 and EA (amongst others) are more knowledgeable than Polyphony, given that they managed to figure it out years ago?
These excuses for Polyphony about how it's hard or not as easy as everybody thinks are just moronic, and I'm puzzled why they keep getting trotted out on occasion. Of course it's not "easy", but that so many studios have figured it out, it's just nonsense to infer that just because one studio can, Polyphony can't; especially so when it's not just one, but a large handful.
You don't need a livery editor that load every single layer when you are on track like in Midnight Club . Best option is to add an "export" function, the game save the livery as a .dds, then load it as a normal skin without calculating layers every time. This will save memory on the long run. You can leave layers "history" in a proper game menu.
About shading, shading is basically just a layer added to the final result. I don't see any technical issues. I saw your name at nogrip, you should know it very well.
If you mean shaders, shaders are precalculated with the 3D programm for every car. When you change livery you don't need to change shaders.
The shading used for GT5, which is also responsible for light reflections, must be able to handle "custom" textures. I've seen what can happen if you use different shaders in a game. Whole liveries which worked before looked horrible with the new shaders applied, because they handle a combination of certain colors differently, or reflections suddenly look wrong etc. (white becomes silver, red looks orange, black goes grey). A livery editor must allow processing of all of that on-the-fly inside of the engine, never mind if you use the export function you mentioned, it still has to be rendered in the running game. Then there's also the polycount of the cars, the difference between Standard and Premium cars (the texture resolution could be a problem), the V-Ram limitation of the PS3 (even with your idea, 256 mb while editing isn't much to work with), the UI of the editor and, something completely different, a way to monitor and check the liveries people create (racism, sexism, pornography and so on). The list goes on with things you need to consider.
On a sidenote: Being registered at NoGrip isn't a guarantee for understanding how this stuff works.
Where did I say more knowledgeable? And just because many studios have that feature, it doesn't mean it will work in the engine from GT5 (and GRID only has pre-defined texture sets, so why mentioning Codemasters?). Not to mention that the editor in Shift also doesn't work properly.
Why can GT5 and GRID have day/night cycle in Le Mans but Forza doesn't have it?
And by the way. Polyphony isn't such a huge Studio, between 90 and 140 people worked on GT5, on everything (modeling, engine, physics, sounds, research etc.). Not even half of the amount of people who worked on Forza (three teams from which two only did the modeling for cars and I think some tracks).
What's even more moronic is assuming people are saying these things. PD are well capable of making a livery editor, they probably already have, several times - they probably weren't "good enough". But it really isn't as easy as some people are making out, that's all he was saying. So what, other developers have made one. That's because such a thing is possible. PD haven't made one not because it's not possible but because they haven't done it yet. Simple as that. They are working on one, it will appear; when? Well, that's each individual's "problem" to "solve" for themselves, preferably in silence if they cannot comprehend how such a thing may be brought into existence.
When I said "re-invent the wheel" I was perhaps being a bit facaetious; ironically, the wheel has been reinvented, or at least re-factored, several times. That's probably more why I used it, given it's often used as a disparaging term, to tell people just to "get it done", "there's no point re-inventing the wheel" etc.
Of course, I mean not just in terms of macro-level features, i.e. course creator, livery editor, "leaderboards", bozo-mods etc. which really are difficult to "reinvent" since you're pretty much constrained by existing "culture" somewhat, given the market for a game like GT. Really, I was talking from a technical implementation standpoint, which is actually everything in a game, since it determines all that follows.
I wonder if people often think that you tell a programmer to make a livery editor and they just jump into their box of tricks and pull one out for you (which may be the case, over at Microsoft or similar, who have a massive pool of tools and expertise to draw upon). There are so many ways to tackle the problem that just copying an existing, working system is far easier (assuming you have access to the underpinnings, or can deduce them from the "outside") than it is to try to think about every single operation, feature, function etc. that such a system requires, and choose an approach that will best encapsulate the requirements you've set yourself for it.
It's nitty-gritty stuff, like how to store the textures when being edited, or how to handle the layers, or whether to do away with textures until the last minute, or how the colour selection works, or how to handle loading and saving, or camera controls, or sharing and rating etc, or hundreds of other little details that PD have never had to worry about before, but must now somehow iron out all the mistakes in before finalising a polished, working "single feature".
Remember how Kaz said when he looked at "the opposition", he was more interested in their approach? I bet this is the sort of thing he means.
Yes, I would be happy with something that works like Forza's, I'm sure PD would too. They just have to actually get it working first...
Not disagreeing or not appreciating the rest of your quote, but I once heard (probably on QI or something) that the oldest wheel-shaped artefact unearthed (think it was found in Mesopotamia/Iraq) was a piece of jewelry.
So not only has the wheel been reinvented multiple times, it took a while apparantly to find it had other uses than a purely decorative one.
A livery editor, would take some time to get right.
Note how Midnight Club slowly implemented the feature in the latter half of the series. A simple decal and paint editor (as shown in MC3) can be a crucial building block for a vinyl editor (MCLA: done damn near flawlessly, but some big ones could freeze the game) in later games.
Now being that GT has added a paint system and semi-revived the RM system, a livery, or vinyl editor as I previously stated, doesn't seem much harder to do, at least theoretically.
Not too many videogame consoles have racing games with nearly as many cars as GT5 does. My concerns are how it would be implemented, how functional it would be, which parameters must a car meet in order to use this feature, and how would it affect online gameplay functionality.
That was one major flaw in MCLA MP, some vinlys/liveries were so massive that the entire server suffered, especially on PS3. And also, the fact that you could buy someone's car and it's vinyl and resell it as your own really annoyed me, as the same damn car would dominate a section of the RMR, and no real talent was needed. This is why I believe that, while you can create liveries/vinyls, you can't gift it, but you can gift the colors that were used in the making of it. Which brings me to another point...
We need a paint chip maker, quite badly. Nobody likes search ostensibly for one paint chip, and in most cases you have to spend a lot of money, plus the 2k cr. fee that comes along with the respray. A paint chip maker, in conjunction with a paint chip search/shop button would drastically reduce the amount of time wasted looking for a chip that you want badly but can't find, and would also unlock dem paint chips that you don't get when you buy the car it's for. I wanted to paint my GT-R Marlboro White (McLaren F1 '94) with some Grabber Blue (Mustang Mach 1 '71) Volk Racing CE28N's. Oh well.
The league i run with do league vs league races in between seasons, a livery editor would be so good for battling other leagues with, each team in thier teams liveries would definatly add somthing imo.
Minor note for JBanton - forgive me if this is a stupid question, but what's with the pink cars and "<3HT" decals?
I can't deny that I'd love the livery editor. Bringing back classic liverys and those that should be, that would do it for me in GT5.
I only fear people abusing it with inappropriate/offensive images.
Cars painted like that (In game and in real life) are frequently used to annoy or "Troll" people. There are also those who find that certain cars can have working pinks and obnoxious colors.
yet they make HUGE money off GT just on sales alone, they can obviously afford to hire more modelers but i guess they don't want to, this is why Forza has DLC with tons of cars coming out practically every month while GT gets 5 cars every half a year or so at this rate.
Better the troll identify himself on the grid rather than blend in though.
I know who to stay clear of on turn one.
I'd probably do something like this.
And you know how much money they make from?
The game alone cost 80.000.000$ if I remember correctly, you need to sell a lot of games to make a profit out of that. I'm not saying they didn't make a lot of profit, but I don't know if it's enough to hire dozens of new people and you don't know either.
Don't forget that a huge part of the team moved into a different city this year too, which wasn't cheap for sure.
PD really really needs to consider adding some sort of vinyl or livery option to GT6. It would help cut down on a LOT of unnecessary cars. For example. Instead of having 10 different cars for 10 different paint schemes. They could have 1 car. Its really just a waste of resources. It doesnt have to be as detailed or as overwhelming as other games, but at least allow us to pick a few different paint schemes, instead of having multiple cars.
Agree, Spence, what are TAM colours anyway out of interest?
I never really looked into how forza teams use the livery editor. I bet that is a great selling point.
Tech has for sometime become all about community and networking. Clubs Clans, and ability for those groups to have some kind of individuality is pretty important. GT6's focus should be on this for sure - if we do not see an L editor with GT5 that is.
Its THE top selling point for Forza and is one of the main reasons the series is so successful. In fact they would lose a large amount of the community if they removed the livery editor.
Shaders are for modders not necessarily for skinners.
You can skin a car keeping the original shader, eventually changing the bodymask. AS long as you create a normal skin you don't HAVE to change shaders. GT5 already have default skins with chrome, metallic, gloss and matte effects at the same time, Raybrig NSX for instance. So it's not an issue, GT5 already handle these fx very well. They only need to create an UI where the livery editor apply a particular effect to a choosen layer.
An export function will save tons of memory on the long run. Don't forget memory is the weakest point on the PS3.
Don't get your point, cars are already rendered in the game menu, I don't see the problem.
We are in 2012, just make good use of these 200 premiums. Standards are just... standards. And I never had a problem changing resolution on GTR2 liveries, from 1024x1024 to 4096x4096.
Upload on granturismo.com the templates and let's paint with Photoshop. The can do it. Memory problem solved. Than we upload .dds liveries via USB.
Report button. Easy does it.
Sure but that's a place where you at leaststart understanding how stuff works.
I agree, I think it is very important.
Racing Sims; although obviously racing is the prime purpose, that goes without saying but these community features are very important. Pretty much all games have an online presents now with community features being very important. Like Guilds and Clans in MMO's/RPG's Racing Sims need this ability to group and categories groups of racers, and then give the ability allow each group to be distinguishable though a Livery editor for colours and logos.
Within my Group we have a Graphic Designer, I would love to see his handy work if given the chance to design with a Livery editor.
More than 7 million copies of GT5 sold, if I recall correctly.
7 million x $60 = $420 000 000.
Take away production costs, retailers cuts, shipping, and whatever else you like, they made a load of money. And sales continue.
You have to allow color picking for the livery editor, the game has to render everything on-the-fly, otherwise it would be a pain in the you know what. The game engine has to be capable of rendering this, with its shading, in realtime. This is not necessarily the case with the paints which are already in the game, since everytime you repaint the cars, you have a short load time hidden in the spraying animation. By the way, "they only need to..", this is exactly why we are discussing this here; it's not as easy as you make it sound like.
Yes, it would, after exporting the skin, not while editing.
With polycount I mean that if the cars aren't modeled clean, you could get issues while painting them. With the huge difference in LOD and general polycount between the cars, it could happen that you can paint one car perfectly fine and another one wouldn't work properly. Or the lower LOD level for in-game ruins some of the textures etc.
Premium liveries only and oh my gosh 1000000 new threads on GTPlanet alone with people crying about how they cannot paint their Standard Cars. Texture resolution could be difficult in an in-engine livery editor, if the resolution is fixed to the car model. Pixelation and other issues could occur after exporting your finished work.
You mean the templates they have to create then first, for 1000+ cars? Also, I seriously doubt GT5 uses a PC standard DDS format for its textures. One of the reasons why you cannot drive any of the cars from GT5 in PC sims, while I can download tons of cars converted from Forza in GTR² and rFactor.
Easy does it? You need people to check this stuff, you need to develope a system which handles the reports and you need to implement the report option inside of the game's UI.
Depends, but that's a different story.
That means 7 million copies shipped to retailers, not sold to customers and like you said yourself, take away the costs you listed, do it, please. Bet you can't though, since no one here has an inside look at how much that stuff costs.