Inside sim racing announces rumor that upgraded premiums will cost money.

[masmullin]

Why must the DLC's be for free? PD actually have to work to get them in the game, and if I know them right, they will need to borrow real cars and use lots of time getting things right. GT5 has way more content than most games out there, so we should not complain about it.

There are three areas of controversy with DLC

1) Unfinished business:
In these days of software upgrades, there comes the question of "was it really finished when I bought it, or did I just pay for a beta release?"
--eg. the standard models are from gt4 while premium models were developed for gt5. Shouldn't all of the models be redeveloped for gt5, and thus any "standard" models is proof of an unfinished game.

2) Fake DLC:
DLC isn't really DLC, but simply unlocking already shipped features
-- eg. the developers made a full game and then purposefully removed some features of the game only to nickle and dime you.

3) true DLC
developers make entirely new content developed entirely after the game was shipped. formerly known as the "extension pack"

#1 is a real problem, as developers are pressured by bean counters to ship a product they will get something "good enough" out, even though they intended the game to be better. Features are lacking and bugs exist. IMHO these should be addressed for free with patches as part of "customer support."

#2 is shady and a very poor thing to do to your loyal customers. I wont buy a game from a company that does this

#3 this is the only "DLC" that should be payed for IMHO.

 

[Lawndart]

This is my personal opinion but I "feel" like Forza 3 has more cars because they are much more current and cars that I want to drive... and way less fantasy/ production prototypes (I don't like that).

So to me car count is relative...

I also have a small issue with Premiums looking too good... I don't like putting aero on a C 63 AMG for instance when it still has all the shinny stock badging... Its not something some guy is likely to do with a car that expensive... when you mod a car in that category you don't just through a cheep body kit on it like a Honda... The custom hood helps, more matte paint might also help make the car look more serious but to me there is a definite contrast, one that has me wishing for more RM upgrades than just location based body kit parts...

 

[Lawndart]

#1 is a real problem, as developers are pressured by bean counters to ship a product they will get something "good enough" out, even though they intended the game to be better. Features are lacking and bugs exist. IMHO these should be addressed for free with patches as part of "customer support."

This is about every game... some just have VERY good management and constantly making objective decisions...

the single hardest part about game development is that SO few games ever realize their full vision... no matter the budget or time... It's also why you never see ecstatically happy producers in interviews... ALWAYS haunted by what "could have been" vs. what is...

I worked on a huge hit many years ago and to this day I am STILL haunted by what it could have been... and it was a huge success beyond our expectations. Even version 2 we couldn't bring much back... then the IP went in another direction, huge hit again... but this new direction forever sealed away the "what could have been" from the original vision... A vision that to this day would still be amazing...

 

[masmullin]

This is about every game... some just have VERY good management and constantly making objective decisions...

the single hardest part about game development is that SO few games ever realize their full vision... no matter the budget or time... It's also why you never see ecstatically happy producers in interviews... ALWAYS haunted by what "could have been" vs. what is...

I worked on a huge hit many years ago and to this day I am STILL haunted by what it could have been... and it was a huge success beyond our expectations. Even version 2 we couldn't bring much back... then the IP went in another direction, huge hit again... but this new direction forever sealed away the "what could have been" from the original vision... A vision that to this day would still be amazing...

It's the same with ALL consumer targeted software now.

 

[p-coletray]

I don't know, but it's definitely more than a "normal" guy at Polyphony gets.
Game developers usually don't get a lot of money anyway.

You just stepped on my dreams. Not really.

FYI: wikipedia states he was gifted a volkswagen golf g32 and a nissan gt-r spec v. No info on the ford gt's or salary.

 

[Shant J.]

Just thought I'd mention this:

In the in-game manual, you can see that the DBS and One-77 have been licensed to PD.

I do hope they're added.

 

[Devedander]

Weird... I have seen this mentioned somewhere before... oh yeah

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=145855

 

[NOS Waster]

Thats just a silly comparassion. You don't have to pay for PS+ to do ANYTHING in Gran Turismo, the total cost of Gran Turismo is $60. No idea why you mentioned XBL here either. Here is the proper comparassion:

GT5: $60 TOTAL
iRacing: $90 ANNUALLY

Why mention XBL? Because if people are going to compare console sims to PC sims using price, then I will use both FM3 and GT5.

And I also have a feeling that if paid DLC is released for GT5, PS+ subscribers will get discounts on it.

Since price is an issue: Let's look at the price of other PC sims.

LFS: $20. This sim is absolutely incredible. I only played the demo, but I loved every second of it.
rFactor: $40. I bought this and can say the $40 was worth it. Sometimes the mods release are of poor quality, but I found some good mods that make me happy. (Released in 2006)
rFactor 2: Price unknown, but very likely to be less than $60. Includes dynamic weather, daytime/night time (like RF1), damage (like RF1), complete mechanical failure system (like RF1), comparable graphics to GT5. (Maybe will be released in 2011?)

GT5 and FM3 are good, but I don't feel like their price is justified.

EDIT:
Getting back on topic:
If DLC car selections are good, I will pay for them.
If not, then I'll wait until GT6 to have em.

 

[Negrumir]

Because the premium cars are PS4 ready. Which means you'll pay for those same cars again in GT6, just like you paid for GT4 cars in GT5.

This is a terrible reason and makes no sense. Just because they do work now and we pay for it doesn't mean they can't use those assets later on and still charge for it.

Example: Gears of war 1, 2, and 3 all run on Unreal Engine 3... Should Epic be forced to make a new engine each time because they already used it before? If companies had to start from scratch each time, there would be no sequels. Also you're not force to buy GT6 again, if you're holding out on GT5 so you can get stuff in GT6 why not just wait until 7? Or 8? Or 9? You get what I'm saying?
"Well, I'm not going to get Assassins Creed until the last one because that one will be what all the work is leading to. No sense buying AC1 or 2 since 3 is planned..." Sounds kinda stupid to me.

As for the GT4 comparison, I tend to look at it in a different light. You're free to disagree but this is what I think. I would've bought GT5 even if it only had the Premium cars. how many cars does NFS have? What about Grid? How many did Forza 3 have when it came out? There are what, 200 some premium cars in GT5? Sounds good to me. The 800 standard cars I see as bonus cars, they could have easily left them out entirely. They're perfectly drivable and some even look pretty dang good.

I'm expecting PD to charge for the Premium cars because that's just what companies do these days. I'd really love to see them give some stuff away for free other than fixes.

Props to them for doing the seasonal events.

 

[tinram]

Because the premium cars are PS4 ready. Which means you'll pay for those same cars again in GT6, just like you paid for GT4 cars in GT5.

You do not want to pay for the same cars in GT6? That would be a bummer, all those tracks and events without cars.

I am ready for these DLCs, bring 'em on, i have saved my work allowance for these.

 

[Devedander]

You do not want to pay for the same cars in GT6? That would be a bummer, all those tracks and events without cars.

I know right? That's what I said about GT5P and GT4 cars in GT5... all those tracks and even... wait... yeah crap.

 

[Stephen220378]

Or patches that "fix" the game.

Upgrading a standard car to a premium car is a perfect function for paid DLC. For one thing, it doesn't split up the online community like tracks would. And, it doesn't give the people who are willing to pay an advantage, as entirely new cars as DLC would. ALthough I wouldn't be surprised if we see that at some point.

But these cars are already in the game. All the paid for content would do would give a little extra enjoyment to those who want to use the cockpit view or photomode.

I am curious, if this is true, about how they plan to roll them out, how many cars per dlc, etc... and what the price will be.

I agree with you 100%, the cars are already in the game so there's no obligation to buy the upgraded premium versions. Personally I'm happy to pay extra for DLC, I buy a lot for the games I have, it amazes me though how some people think that PD somehow owe us all everything for nothing.

The price and amount of cars per pack is anyones guess, I really haven't a clue. Hopefully it will be something like Guitar Hero where you can buy a track pack with all it's songs or you can buy each one individually.

 

[afc2112]

I know right? That's what I said about GT5P and GT4 cars in GT5... all those tracks and even... wait... yeah crap.

Fair point, but as you can clearly see with the double charging of the cars, PD and its employees are NOT working for free even if they offered the premium DLC cars for free.

 

[danjama]

I'll pay for DLC for GT5. It'll be the first time I pay for extra game content, but if it's worth it, i'll buy it. I'd even be willing to pay for new, well thought out, events.

 

[UkHardcore23]

So when a company spends it's time and resources creating additional content for a game it should not charge the customer?

Not when we only get a paltry 200odd premiums compared to the 800odd PS2 cars! 👎

 

[NOS Waster]

I'll pay for DLC for GT5. It'll be the first time I pay for extra game content, but if it's worth it, i'll buy it. I'd even be willing to pay for new, well thought out, events.

I strongly agree with that part. I also agree with the statement after that.

 

[Uxi]

I think any cars that are upgraded to Premium should be free, I will happily pay for new Premium cars that I want.

I agree with this

 

[BTBAM]

On another note i would pay money for a patch that would simplify the menus and cut the loading times by half.
I hate nothing more than the tedious task of changing oil on any car because of all the loading time involved +the super annoying animations
Any time you have to go into GT Auto i feel sick to my stomach, the really annoying song doesn't help either. Why oh why can't it play my custom soundtrack in there too (and in tuning and UCS and NCS etc...)👎

 

[Uxi]

You want to pay to cut your loading times, get an SSD. I don't expect PD to ever substantially change the menus or default loading in GT5. HOpefully they'll add a few categories... the One-Make Races from GT4 are the main thing we're missing in GT5...

 

[p-coletray]

Fair point, but as you can clearly see with the double charging of the cars, PD and its employees are NOT working for free even if they offered the premium DLC cars for free.

Noone works for free, besides some elephants in thailand, but even they get fed. Games aren't any different than rock albums. If the sales volume is high, your cut is high. GT5 volume is very high. I guess the aftermarket and online sales are like going on tour, a chance to capitolize on success. I would do the same, it is inevitable and it will continue to become console online standards. I am glad they finally put some HP i the online dealership.

 

[BTBAM]

You want to pay to cut your loading times, get an SSD.

I already did. Still really annoying. They could however fix the menumusic, no?

 

[Stephen220378]

On another note i would pay money for a patch that would simplify the menus and cut the loading times by half.
I hate nothing more than the tedious task of changing oil on any car because of all the loading time involved +the super annoying animations
Any time you have to go into GT Auto i feel sick to my stomach, the really annoying song doesn't help either. Why oh why can't it play my custom soundtrack in there too (and in tuning and UCS and NCS etc...)👎

A fairly easy thing for PD to do that would be to have the pointer on screen move freely using the analogue stick like it does with a mouse on a computer and also a series of useful shortcut buttons permanently displayed along the bottom of the screen on all menus, i.e garage, gt auto, tuning, a-spec and b-spec. So simple to do and it would make it much more user friendly.

 

[Valander]

Games aren't any different than rock albums. If the sales volume is high, your cut is high.

Hardly. I don't know of any software development position that works that way. Developers are more often than not on a set salary. Good positions will also have stock options or something like that. The sales rate of a game has absolutely zero impact on what the developers for said game are/were paid. Now, of course, if a game doesn't do well, then the development studio will likely not recoup costs and won't make a sequel, and might even shut down. But just because a game goes gangbusters does not mean that the individual developers make any more or less money.

*For the record, yes, I am in the software development field, though not in games. I do, however, have several friends in game dev, and they're all salaried individuals. I'd be extremely surprised if PD was any different.

 

[thesuperfunk]

Not content that should have been in the original release.

Fair enough charge for new cars, but not for upgrades from standard to premium.

Agreed 👍

They would most likely still be remodelling a large portion of them as premiums for GT6 so charging for them 'early' in GT5 is just borderline criminal in my opinion ... I certainly won't be paying for any DLC cars.

 

[Destinkeys]

I'd even be willing to pay for new, well thought out, events.

Sorry, but I won't pay a red cent for something that a minor flack at PD could do by himself in an afternoon... make 200 of them, that is!

 

[p-coletray]

Hardly. I don't know of any software development position that works that way. Developers are more often than not on a set salary. Good positions will also have stock options or something like that. The sales rate of a game has absolutely zero impact on what the developers for said game are/were paid. Now, of course, if a game doesn't do well, then the development studio will likely not recoup costs and won't make a sequel, and might even shut down. But just because a game goes gangbusters does not mean that the individual developers make any more or less money.

*For the record, yes, I am in the software development field, though not in games. I do, however, have several friends in game dev, and they're all salaried individuals. I'd be extremely surprised if PD was any different.

Rockband being PD, sony as the label, individual employees are like instruments that are abused, misused, and either make it with the band or not. No corporation divides up the spoils, they watch market trends and keep wages dirt cheap, which is why I'm union.

Any other questions?

 

[Stephen220378]

Agreed 👍

They would most likely still be remodelling a large portion of them as premiums for GT6 so charging for them 'early' in GT5 is just borderline criminal in my opinion ... I certainly won't be paying for any DLC cars.

So paying to have GT6 cars in GT5 is criminal? I really don't get that logic. Just because they're going to be in a game which is probably at least 2 years down the line, they should automatically just give them out free in the present?

 

[ESR_balla]

I would pay but they better be good cars, not of this crap they wasted their time like the Pruis and CR-Z.

 

[Lawndart]

I wouldn't waist much time with the business side of PD as an argument or justification for anything... It's a team, with a project that just happens to be the pet project of the VP...

They get paid like any other dev team, some really well, some standard, and others low... They still have annual targets, goals, and budgets. Sometimes these can be deferred to following years if the P&L isn't locked but they have to justify that it will sell more units/make more money because of it...

Even Kaz, as a big boss, has obligations to Sony shareholders... EVERYONE has a boss...

Furthermore, DLC is a business decision, not a feature. The decisions on whether to do DLC or not are made long before the product ships despite what Kaz's personal opinion is... DLC is simple todays version of expansion packs.

If GT5 doesn't have DLC then they might introduce a subscription model... both are good options to increase revenues but an actual subscription model would include a service beyond hosting servers... and fund the team year round... This then makes "monthly" updates make a whole lot more sense...

 

[Devedander]

To everyone that says "Why should they work for free" if you paid painters to paint a house but they only did 1/5 of it and the other 4/5 was just the old paint would you say asking them to paint the rest was asking them to work for free?

I don't think anyones asking PD to work for free, they are saying "hey that work we ALREADY paid for? Do it and don't charge me for twice!".

For those who say you got what you paid for already?

Ummm... no... outside of premium cars I didn't get online matchmaking or official events, I didn't get Bspec against other Bspec drivers online, I still can't invite people to a lobby online directly - those are all things listed right on the box or manual.

Then there are the things I coudln't know becuase PD heald back that info like what exactly standard cars were and what the quality was and if it was a range or a specific value, how many events and how deep they would be, what tuning options would be (and if they would be different from standards to premium) etc etc.

No one got what they paid for becaue 1: stuff is STILL missing 2: you couldn't know what was in the box so you couldn't know what you were paying for... you can't get what you paid for if you didn't know in the first place.

We put trust in PD to deliver all the thing they hyped and were reasonable to expect after so long working on the game. To say you already got what you paid for is completely bogus.