McLaren
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Sorry, but it's not. This game is more realistic in physics than GT or Forza, and is undoubtedly, the most realistic console sim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F355_Challenge
This is a fact, not an opinion.
Inside Sim Racing video. GT5P vs Forza 2 Now with new 2nd video!!!!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F355_Challenge
This is a fact, not an opinion.
Lion-Face
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- Lion-Face
Sure its a complete game, but its a Prologue. If you read the Prologue of a Book, have you read the book? No, you've had a taste of whats to come. You can't compare them directly as two fully complete games. Would you compare the Prologue of one book with the Story of another? I don't have a problem with them comparing the two games, although a little shallow, and hence why its left a bad taste in many players mouths. I would have rather seen Forza go head2head with Ferrari Challenge:TP, that would have been more interesting I feel.
It makes an interesting and confusing argument though. Gran Turismo is the only series with a 'Prologue' of sorts, and GT is probably the only series that could stick a prologue out there and have it be successful.
@Reventón
How is F355 Challenge a more realistic sim than the other console racing Sims? I would just like to see how you can qualify that comment, seeing as the link you provided was a wiki link, which at best, is full of informative opinions, but that link didn't really do anything to backup your argument. I have never played F355 Challenge, there has only been one time i had seen the game in a 2nd hand store more than 6 years ago and have never seen that ago. Am definantly interested in playing the game, but i honestly wouldn't expect it to be near the levels of current day Console Sims like Gran Turismo of Ferrari Challenge. Would be pleasantly surprised if it was up to scratch though.
McLaren
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The link was to show what game I was referring to.
F355 Challenge is probably one of the, if not the, most realistic console sim because all the data in the game comes directly from the old F355 Challenge Series. The creator of the game used his own car as well to make sure everything was correct.
The game is a die-hard sim, and any review you can find of it will highlight that it is not for casual gamers. You must put in the time to be fully rewarded. Mix this in with the fact that the arcade versions had a full detail 6-speed transmission with clutch meant that it was very rare to see anyone play the game without messing up.
This review from 2000 on the Dreamcast version (the better one anyways) talks even more about the detail.
http://www.gamecritics.com/review/ferrari355/main.php
It's no coincidence that you'll find similar words used to describe GTR/2, rFactor, & even LFS, games that are undoubtedly, also more realistic than GT & Forza.
GT & Forza do a great job, no doubt. But I wouldn't be surprised if the games aren't fully realistic as it would probably turn off the casual racers who like the features of both games. Not extremely realistic, but not arcade either.
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- Nigel Fox
I'll have to agree that 355 Challenge is touted as one of the legendary sim racers, and perhaps the game to get the whole ultra-realism ball rolling. I never did get to experience that realistic physics though, because the horrid letterboxed cockpit view made going at any speed at all a challenge, not to mention staying on the track. 
One other thing that mystified me about the Forza series is that the cars refuse to lean around turns. Stock street cars acted like they had no shocks at all, rock solid level no matter how fast you took a turn. I still wonder if the physics were up to handling a bumpy road properly, as even Sebring felt more like you were driving over mattresses than concrete slabs.
One other thing that mystified me about the Forza series is that the cars refuse to lean around turns. Stock street cars acted like they had no shocks at all, rock solid level no matter how fast you took a turn. I still wonder if the physics were up to handling a bumpy road properly, as even Sebring felt more like you were driving over mattresses than concrete slabs.
Reventón;3371012
Sorry dude, I don't take into account fanboys opinions.
You can imagine that FAKE cars in LFS are more REALISTIC (don't know what does it mean), but Forza 2 physics in basics has obvious edge over LFS.
And what does it mean "even LFS"? LFS is considered today as the most realistic PC sim, rFactor second, SimBin games after them
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- VIPERGTS01
iracing is forgot about here
iracing is becoming the king of the pack, after doing a month trial I tend to agree, IMO greater than LFS, GTR (by a long shot) and rFactor and thats not just my opinion most of the real racers and hardcore sim racers tend to agree. One thing I really noticed is I can jump out of iracing straight into GT5P and they feel quite similar, little adjustment time, iracing is less forgiving to mistakes though, especially when cutting curbs and bottoming out. GT5P has the same feeling but doesn't simulate how abrupt things can change when bottoming out on high curbs.
iracing is becoming the king of the pack, after doing a month trial I tend to agree, IMO greater than LFS, GTR (by a long shot) and rFactor and thats not just my opinion most of the real racers and hardcore sim racers tend to agree. One thing I really noticed is I can jump out of iracing straight into GT5P and they feel quite similar, little adjustment time, iracing is less forgiving to mistakes though, especially when cutting curbs and bottoming out. GT5P has the same feeling but doesn't simulate how abrupt things can change when bottoming out on high curbs.
Yeah, 20$ monthly payment for basic package with two cars. Thank you very much.
Compare to this Prologue sounds like best deal of millennium.
This argument has been brought up over and over and quite frankly it doesnt hold water - just because they call it "prologue" doesnt mean they can or should get away with a lesser product.
most gaming companys do give you a taster of what is to come, it is either a demo - which is free with very limited content, or beta, also free but has more content and bugs. GT5P is neither. it cost decent amount, in fact right now it cost as much as MGS4 since MGS4 has gone platinum.
GT is the only game that can do "prologue", a.k.a a cheaper version of the final game, and get a way with it, because it has the biggest fan base of all console games.
McLaren
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Aw, did I strike a nerve? Come up with an excuse that isn't 10 years old, please.
BTW, not an opinion. GT & Forza are not more realistic than F355, GTR2, rFactor, or LFS. That's a fact.
Typical excuse against LFS. "It haz fak3 carz, can't b3 realz".
Sorry, but it is. LFS doesn't need real cars to simulate the basics of how a car works. What it does simulate is the weight, horsepower of the car, & the movements of the car to give people a good representation of it.
BTW, LFS has a real car that is very much like its real life counterpart.
LFS hasn't been reviewed to the same account at GTR/2 & others because it's not an extremely well known game. But, what reviews there are, have words like F355's reviews.
Again though, GT & Forza as realistic as they are, have lacked in physics simulation until GT5
against the PC sims.Reventón;3372235
There are hundreds of cars of each type, and many of them drive very different. So which one LFS simulate and how you supposed to check is it real or not?
Whatever it simulates you will never find out how real it is. Today every game simulate the basics, that was a news in 2003 when LFS was released, not now
McLaren
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Then why do GT & Forza still allow the player to manipulate & exaggerate the basic physics of a car? And why are both game still having an issue with many of the cars under/oversteering & so forth?
Basic simulation may have been around since 2003, but it's a wonder as to why LFS is still the only one doing it right.
Reventón;3372260Uh, how about a simple, everyday car with no exterior mods still being capable of 400Mph when simple physics in the real world would keep that from ever happening just because the car has all the mods in the game?
My personal impression from modern PC simulators: they are extremely low budget games where everything except physics is just shareware level.
Developers claims how realistic they are cause it's the only way to sell them, otherwise nobody will buy game with several fictional cars, graphics of 2002 level, with no AI, especially if he plays high budget console monsters like Forza and GT.
I don't know, how realistic PC sims are, cause never drove fictional cars, say what two people (the whole LFS team) with zero budget could do about realism? They can implement basic physics from books, that what every developer does nowdays. Testing real cars, recording real sound and so on is out of their reach.
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- VIPERGTS01
I agree it is expensive, but you can see the quality once you try it. Thats why I did a free month trial of 3 cars (3rd car is the Radical SR8) and a bunch of tracks.
Thats fine but..... People who buy Prologue know what they are getting (unless they blindly buy it), GT5P states on the back of the cover what it features and if thats not good enough for the price then you don't buy it.
You are right not many series could attempt to sell a prologue successfully, some people despise that Sony is making money on a 'prologue' while others like myself are very grateful, GT is pretty much the only reason I even buy a console anymore, with such long waits between versions It's great to have something to gnaw away at.
Sounds strange but I don't drive home from work on Radical SR8. So even if I try I still won't get any idea about quality of simulation.
That's the main problem with auto simulators, how real this F430 GT2 in game X? Who the hell knows? LOL
But free month trial is enough indeed to make your own decision do you like the game or not.
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Pontiac Solstice (road car but with stickers) is also one of the choices, though I can never get a clear answer to the tyres used, it just has tyres.
Also I am not just talking about the quailty of simulation but the quailty of the whole software.
But don't get wrong, iracing has simulation flaws too just like all the other PC and console racing sims (looking at you GTR Evo).
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- Nigel Fox
Wow, I've seen some stubborn people before, but... 
Double wow, are you a vampire too, Rev? I got almost no sleep because I was trying to get a late PC order in. Work is going to really suck today, meh...
Anyway, ot, you have to understand that there are basic physical properties of cars and tires which you can compare to real life without going a million miles an hour. Admittedly, some of my experience with LFS is a little different because this was my first experience with it - and my PC trying to wreck my DF Pro wheel. Since I couldn't get it to work right, I used an old USB controller to try and race, and failing that, I did some crash testing. Even though the cars crumple like cardboard or clay, rather like they do in Toca 3 until you do something catastrophic, the behavior of the car was amazingly realistic. I found to my delight that the collision detection behind barriers was out of whack and shot the car like it was thrown by a ballista, and it was very much like some of the video I've seen of extreme collisions. The only game which seems to do as good a job with collision physics is GRID, and possibly Toca 3. I thought the tires roasted way too easily, but maybe they fixed that since then. Maybe when Gran Turismo 5 finally shows up we can have our best physics on a console torture test too.
And you also have to how good the physics are in Forza when bumps in tracks are a rarity, you can go insanely fast without a bodykit, the unmodified street cars won't lean whatsoever, and Turn 10 has to periodically fix the game and reset the leaderboards because one car or another has an unfair exploit.
And why do some people pick on GTR Evo? I thought it was pretty good.
Double wow, are you a vampire too, Rev? I got almost no sleep because I was trying to get a late PC order in. Work is going to really suck today, meh...
Anyway, ot, you have to understand that there are basic physical properties of cars and tires which you can compare to real life without going a million miles an hour. Admittedly, some of my experience with LFS is a little different because this was my first experience with it - and my PC trying to wreck my DF Pro wheel. Since I couldn't get it to work right, I used an old USB controller to try and race, and failing that, I did some crash testing. Even though the cars crumple like cardboard or clay, rather like they do in Toca 3 until you do something catastrophic, the behavior of the car was amazingly realistic. I found to my delight that the collision detection behind barriers was out of whack and shot the car like it was thrown by a ballista, and it was very much like some of the video I've seen of extreme collisions. The only game which seems to do as good a job with collision physics is GRID, and possibly Toca 3. I thought the tires roasted way too easily, but maybe they fixed that since then. Maybe when Gran Turismo 5 finally shows up we can have our best physics on a console torture test too.
And you also have to how good the physics are in Forza when bumps in tracks are a rarity, you can go insanely fast without a bodykit, the unmodified street cars won't lean whatsoever, and Turn 10 has to periodically fix the game and reset the leaderboards because one car or another has an unfair exploit.
And why do some people pick on GTR Evo? I thought it was pretty good.
So guys ... what are physics? Everyone says this game has better physics over this another. Explain to me
I was playing Motorstorm games, and Burnout, GTA4 game. And it seems physics were solid in those games, Suspension in GTA4 acts pretty realistically, so is that making it a sim? Because of good visual physics?
When I play Gran Turiso 5 Prologue, there is way less visual physics, but if you have a wheel you feel it. I like how in GT5P when you are in HSR with a Lotus for example doing a high speed turn with high speed and you let go of GAS pedal, the back wants to ketch up with the front because it's way heavier and it does, so the car spins out on you in the right direction. But as soon as I would press on gas pedal before spin out, you can really feel the car is back on track. This is only one aspect of Gran Turismo physics. You really need a wheel to experience GT sim to the fullest, a PAD wont cut it.
When I was playing GTR2, I used the Lotus, I found similar turn , I went in high speed but still manageable to make it, I let go of gas, car only slow down.. Sure it's a race car but its still not that perfect. In Forza.. car slows down as well with Lotus.. Forza2 even tho it seems it has better physics for the eye, it really falls short on what the car should do and behave. I think Huge turns with Lotus cars and spinout because lack of acceleration is one of the biggest physics aspects. For me GT5P wins so far.
I yet still have to play iRacing, but I belive that iRacing and GT5P feels the same except GT5P is bit tougher. So far from playing rFactor, and GTRevo games.. seems PC sims are too easy? If it's that easy to drive a car fast.. maybe I should become a professional race car driver?
I was playing Motorstorm games, and Burnout, GTA4 game. And it seems physics were solid in those games, Suspension in GTA4 acts pretty realistically, so is that making it a sim? Because of good visual physics?
When I play Gran Turiso 5 Prologue, there is way less visual physics, but if you have a wheel you feel it. I like how in GT5P when you are in HSR with a Lotus for example doing a high speed turn with high speed and you let go of GAS pedal, the back wants to ketch up with the front because it's way heavier and it does, so the car spins out on you in the right direction. But as soon as I would press on gas pedal before spin out, you can really feel the car is back on track. This is only one aspect of Gran Turismo physics. You really need a wheel to experience GT sim to the fullest, a PAD wont cut it.
When I was playing GTR2, I used the Lotus, I found similar turn , I went in high speed but still manageable to make it, I let go of gas, car only slow down.. Sure it's a race car but its still not that perfect. In Forza.. car slows down as well with Lotus.. Forza2 even tho it seems it has better physics for the eye, it really falls short on what the car should do and behave. I think Huge turns with Lotus cars and spinout because lack of acceleration is one of the biggest physics aspects. For me GT5P wins so far.
I yet still have to play iRacing, but I belive that iRacing and GT5P feels the same except GT5P is bit tougher. So far from playing rFactor, and GTRevo games.. seems PC sims are too easy? If it's that easy to drive a car fast.. maybe I should become a professional race car driver?
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That was a very interesting observation
- 495
- GTP_Jostheboss
well you could try becoming a proffesional racing driver 
, you just have to have a pair of big balls and a bit of ignorance of knowing that injuries/death can be quite close
, you just have to have a pair of big balls and a bit of ignorance of knowing that injuries/death can be quite close 
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- Nigel Fox
I think you answered your own question, in a way.
It seems like certain people latch onto certain games because some aspect of how some cars behave hits them right in the pleasure center. With Forza, there are some aspects which favor certain styles of driving, like those who want to take turns as fast as possible, or those who favor American hotrods, and drifters have a field day because drifting is easier in the Forza engine than other games, or real life. Some like the partial damage implementation. I was drawn to it because it offered "endless" possibilities for modifying and race liveries. I say "endless" because there is only room for 350 some odd cars, which runs out fairly quickly if you have many cars race modded and buy periodically from the Auction House. Online play is fairly stable with good pings to most servers.
People are drawn to Codemaster games because of a certain flavor of physics, and a pretty good collision/damage implementation, along with dozens of different styles of racing.
A very few prefer Enthusia for having something over the other console racers, though for the life of me, I couldn't figure out what they were talking about. Just taking turns at slightly aggressive speeds was treacherous because the car almost refused to communicate anything to me with my DF Pro wheel, and as often as not, I mysteriously went off the track.
Some have glommed onto Ferrari Challenge, and it seems developer Eutechnyx licensed the Forza 2 engine and juiced it up with Aegia's PhysX code. They swear they feel some aspects of weight transfer better than the other console racers, and others like braking and tire dynamics they insist is modeled better.
Lots of racers went nuts for PC sims such as the GTR series, rFactor, Live For Speed and iracing which do a nice overall job of delivering precise if forgiving physics to one extent or another. I suspect that's what some of the gripe is over Simbin's GTR series, because I was surprised at how difficult it was to go wrong once you get a handle on the feel of the cars. I suspect that LFS, iracing and Richard Burns Rally are the most finicky and demanding of the PC sims.
And that leaves Gran Turismo. After spending time with Prologue, my once vaunted GT4 felt primitive in comparison. But at the same time, the crazy thing still manages to get most of the aspects of racing right. Mid-engined cars are tail heavy and require power through turns, while rear engined RUFs are downright twitchy. While grip loss is usually rather gradual, it can be abrupt depending on the situation, while it tends to be properly snappy when grip is regained. Street cars lean around turns, and older, taller cars lean quite a bit, realistically so. As Nox mentioned, easing on the throttle can enable you to use the mid-engined cars' tendencies to swing the tail out to take turns more aggressively, though you have to be careful to keep from spinning out. Rear drive cars muscle through turns while front drive cars pull. While at first I thought sports tire equipped cars understeered and bogged a bit too much in turns, recent driving has made me wonder if it's not actually very realistic.
And especially when driven from roof cam, I feel very connected to the car. The view as someone pointed out is centered over the front seat, giving you a sense of balance focused on where you would be in an actual car. You have the benefit of the panoramic view of the track which is evidently very hard to recreate properly with cockpit view, and you also have the benefit of peripheral vision to the sides of the car. While braking is a bit too stable, you can judge braking and gas points in turns very well when you get familiar with the cars, and can get comfortable fairly quickly with how much you can push various cars at different performance levels. When I make a mistake in GT, I usually know why. While it's fairly forgiving, it still requires you to be close to where you should be driving or off the track you go or into another car.
Compared to other games, the story is a little different. For instance, Toca has about the best cockpit view in racing games, though that's because the windshield presents almost the entire field of view, as if your chin were on the dash. There are a very useful range of driver cams, though no roof view, so I felt fairly well connected. Physics did feel a little scripted at times. Collisions were very dramatic and pretty realistic. Unfortunately, the steering wheel implementation was terrible, and I had to fight to get something workable.
Forza and Ferrari Challenge are fairly similar, as they use the same engine. Even the very same vinyls in the livery shop! Forza sports tires have a satisfying grip, though after flinging my Supra around a bit, it seems way too much grip. It also has a weird oversteer tendency with only moderate power sometimes. Jerking the wheel is usually enough to stop a skid and regain grip. Cars won't lean around turns. I don't care for the camera angles, and am forced to drive chase cam in both, though it's far worse in FC because the view is way too low, and I don't like the cockpit view at all. While some rear-engined Porsches are downright treacherous, mid-engined cars are too well mannered and easy to drive. Ferrari Challenge, featuring only Ferraris on racing tires, is much better balanced and sim-like, though with the same oversteering flaw. But you have to keep in mind that the cars are almost all mid-engined and throttle around turns carefully or you'll go spinning. Because of the camera views in both, while I feel pretty well connected to the cars in both, taking turns is kind of a roll of the dice for me, and this is where racing really matters. So many times in FC, I'll smack right into the wall in a turn on Monza because I'm fishing for the proper way to tackle it, making it as frustrating as it is fun.
While the first GTR was a mess for me, GTR Evolution was a pleasant surprise when I got the feel down. While it has pretty demanding if forgiving PC sim physics, it doesn't take long to come to terms with its various cars, and you should be able to push your car competitively as you get used to the dynamics of racing. Tire grip, weight shifting, tuning, accelerating and braking feel quite lifelike, as far as I can tell, having never driven a real race car. While I also bought rFactor, my DF Pro wheel died thanks to my current PC - soon to be replaced, so I couldn't compare the two. I won't mention Enthusia because, try as I might, I felt the least connected to the car and in control of all the games I've played. Nothing worked, so I'm pretending it doesn't exist - sorry, Enthisiastics.
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue and Toca seem to be right in the middle of it all, a nice balance of forgiving behavior with a healthy dose of realism. As VIPERGTRS01 mentioned, coming from a PC sim to Prologue felt pretty smooth and similar. You could tell that it was a console sim rather than a more finicky PC sim, but the differences are surprisingly thin. With each GT game, Kaz and his team drew closer to reality, and Prologue is very close to real life. It makes me VERY anxious to get my hands on GT5 itself, and see what secrets Kazunori-dono has been keeping from us.
And yes, I too would LOVE to be a race car driver.
Reventón;3372358Because all the current PC sims use fictional cars.
They are. LFS and rFactor.
Fancy race cars in SimBin games as good as fictional, nobody can check them. They have some pretty strange behavior compare to other sims, but nobody knows how FIA GT cars drive.
Somehow I don't believe in Race Pro at all, rock stable and giant undesteer doesn't sound like any race car. Besides very simplified driving many cars in this game can't pass turns faster than Corolla in real life.
