Instead of penalties, damage!

[Sven Jurgens]

I said this before but the original Forza handle it really well. You hit somebody and your steering would be really screwed up for a good little while, not letting you drive straight! The victim would also get damaged but it was far less consequential because the rear of a car has fewer vital components.

It’s such a simple solution, PD please

I haven't played Forza in a long time, yet isn't online racing much worse in Forza? I quit Forza cause every time I tried it online I got pit manoevered on the straights and crashed into in every corner, while dodging cars that were driving the track in the opposite direction.

 

[KK78]

In theory, it's a cool idea but in practice totally unworkable imo judging by the relatively random nature of the current penalty system. How does it decide the severity of the impact, the angle, the intention, the blame and then what component should be hindered/damaged, and for how long? At least with a time penalty you know what you are dealing with.

 

[John Crellin]

In theory, it's a cool idea but in practice totally unworkable judging by the relatively random nature of the penalty system. How does it decide the severity of the impact, the angle, the intention, the blame and then what component should be hindered/damaged, and for how long? At least with a time penalty you know what you are dealing with.

What do you mean? Damage is already a thing. They just don't select "damage on" when they create the daily custom race

 

[KK78]

What do you mean? Damage is already a thing. They just don't select "damage on" when they create the daily custom race

Yes I know, I just don't think the system is remotely sophisticated enough, it's like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Furthermore, it breaks the immersion (which granted so does the time pens to some degree) having a wonky car inflicted on you for a nudge here or there is poor in my view, plenty of motor sport (Touring cars, DTM, Rallycross, Oval racing etc) disciplines see regular contact because it is so close and tense, take that away and it loses something I think.


Of course out right shunting is another matter but time penalties and ghosting do a better job imo.

 

[TheGTGeek]

Actually that's a bad idea replacing penalties with damage, knowing how everyone drives on GT Sport and all. if damage were incorporated into GT Sport, they would make it like GT6's damage system, fully visual, and besides, what would happen if they let everyone cut corners with no penalty.

 

[ceres2000]

Actually that's a bad idea replacing penalties with damage, knowing how everyone drives on GT Sport and all. if damage were incorporated into GT Sport, they would make it like GT6's damage system, fully visual, and besides, what would happen if they let everyone cut corners with no penalty.

Of course cutting corners would incur penalties. It's the punting, nudging, ramming etc that need to have damage on.

 

[TheGeologist]

Penalties are unrealistic and especially since the game is affiliated with FIA, they should be substituted with mechanical damage. So, drivers will know that the car will be slower or undrivable for the rest of the race once they hit someone and they will have to play more safely. What do you think?

You're literally the same guy who posted this yesterday

I haven't played Sport mode yet since I don't have PS Plus. By default my DR is E and that looks to my friends and other people that visit my profile that I'm a ****** player. Isn't that unfair? Wouldn't it be more logical to have DR be "-" as in no DR?

Why not try sport mode before suggesting it is broken?

 

[winet]

iRacing has a very sensitive damage model. Not really a great idea. If you get tapped on a front wheel through no fault of your own it knocks out the toe and you are done. Happened to me more times than I can count

 

[KingFrog]

Logic : A TIME penalty that affects an invisible ranking bothers me so much : ruins the game
Replace it with damage that affects my cars handling and can potentially end the race : Totaly fine .

 

[Sander 001]

I haven't played Forza in a long time, yet isn't online racing much worse in Forza? I quit Forza cause every time I tried it online I got pit manoevered on the straights and crashed into in every corner, while dodging cars that were driving the track in the opposite direction.

Yes but I was only talking about the original Forza. Since then, the online portion of the series has completely dropped, though I haven’t played the latest game.

 

[user3392345]

Live moderator for every fia race, if someone drive like idiot = kick and blacklist. Done.

 

[kseb08]

Penalties are unrealistic and especially since the game is affiliated with FIA, they should be substituted with mechanical damage. So, drivers will know that the car will be slower or undrivable for the rest of the race once they hit someone and they will have to play more safely. What do you think?

I'm 100% with you AlexDB9! From the beginning I say that damages need to be enabled. But most of people say that it's a bad idea...

I tried it in a private lobby and......... it works :-). Dirty drivers leave quickly the lobby because they can ram only one time, but a part of clean drivers leave the lobby too, OK. But, if you continue to go in this direction, at one moment, after few days/weeks, I'm convinced that dirty drivers will stop playing the game or will play with others rammers (SR D).

Penalties are insufficient...

 

[TheGeologist]

I can't believe you guys want damage.

Under this system, if someone rams you only they (usually) get a penalty. Your race is not over, and their race is hampered.

Under a damage system, your race is over. Both drivers races are over. At the very least, you will both have to limp it to pit road, and wait for damage to be fixed.... Why would you want that for the innocent driver?

 

[ChilledMatt]

I'm 100% with you AlexDB9! From the beginning I say that damages need to be enabled. But most of people say that it's a bad idea...

I tried it in a private lobby and......... it works :-). Dirty drivers leave quickly the lobby because they can ram only one time, but a part of clean drivers leave the lobby too, OK. But, if you continue to go in this direction, at one moment, after few days/weeks, I'm convinced that dirty drivers will stop playing the game or will play with others rammers (SR D).

Penalties are insufficient...

I race twice a week in an organised championship with full damage. When randoms were allowed to join in, T1 pile ups were common. Now as everyone is aware of the consequences they are a rarity. Each race is an hour long and I rarely incur any damage in the entire race. If this approach were adopted in Sport mode I am sure the racing would improve drastically over time.

 

[JulesDennis]

I can't believe you guys want damage.

Under this system, if someone rams you only they (usually) get a penalty. Your race is not over, and their race is hampered.

Under a damage system, your race is over. Both drivers races are over. At the very least, you will both have to limp it to pit road, and wait for damage to be fixed.... Why would you want that for the innocent driver?

I wonder why you dont want damage on the same way you wonder why people want it.
In the closed beta testing I was pointing out that in order for any rating/penalty system to work in an "e-sport sim racing" title,you MUST have full/realistic damage at all times.

 

[TheGeologist]

I wonder why you dont want damage on the same way you wonder why people want it.
In the closed beta testing I was pointing out that in order for any rating/penalty system to work in an "e-sport sim racing" title,you MUST have full/realistic damage at all times.

Simply because people don't know how to drive. I don't want to be wrecked out because someone doesn't know what a brake is. Too many casual people play this game compared to PC2, it just isn't the right move.

 

[ChilledMatt]

Simply because people don't know how to drive. I don't want to be wrecked out because someone doesn't know what a brake is. Too many casual people play this game compared to PC2, it just isn't the right move.

I disagree. The casuals who are currently barging their way into the races/ranking that you frequent would quickly be relegated to lower levels.

 

[JacksHerer]

If damage was on - let it be the proper damage, not that pathetic wears off damage.

I like driving the 991, but I've had a tool ram the back of me in an online lobby with damage on and my engine was destroyed. The guy was also in a 991 and probably just had front splitter damage.

So I would vote for full damage and penalties. Assuming the guy ramming would get a penalty and the rammed wouldn't.

I would also start using a front engined car.

 

[JulesDennis]

Simply because people don't know how to drive. I don't want to be wrecked out because someone doesn't know what a brake is. Too many casual people play this game compared to PC2, it just isn't the right move.

PC2 or iRacing or whatever other title have nothing to do with damage in GTS.
I get your point that many people dont actually have a clue about sim racing.Imagine now what would have happend if from first release day all Sport races had full damage and fuel/tire consumption -that I was saying back in closed beta test days- :you would never go up against those people.
Easy and realistic way to make rating system work a lot better.
But GTS and sim racing is for...everyone (Kaz).

 

[ceres2000]

I race twice a week in an organised championship with full damage. When randoms were allowed to join in, T1 pile ups were common. Now as everyone is aware of the consequences they are a rarity. Each race is an hour long and I rarely incur any damage in the entire race. If this approach were adopted in Sport mode I am sure the racing would improve drastically over time.

Thank you for this. Exactly what I've been thinking. At some point the habitual rammers would get tired of not finishing a single race or finishing poorly everytime right? Sure there will be the trolls off and on but like you said it will get better in time.

And for the genuine mistakes? Hey it happens in motorsports.

 

[Lord Grey]

I disagree. The casuals who are currently barging their way into the races/ranking that you frequent would quickly be relegated to lower levels.

If the lower levels incurred full damage all the time then the casual players would quickly leave the game, or at least the online portion. The 10% of players who take Sport mode seriously would be the only ones left. Some might argue that that may be a good thing, but PD's profit margin would certainly take a hit.

I like the damage idea, but the game needs to be accessible. What about a tiered system, where:

1. Lower level players have little or no damage penalty
2. The higher you go, the more realistic the damage (within the PD framework, as good/bad as it is)
3. The amount of damage you incur is factored into your tier level. Ideally, blame would be factored in as well, but we've seen that blame is difficult for the game to determine.

The basic idea is that in order to progress to higher rankings you have to learn how to drive well, but you aren't overly punished for just figuring out the game.

While I'm wishing, I'd like to win the lottery, too.

 

[kseb08]

I race twice a week in an organised championship with full damage. When randoms were allowed to join in, T1 pile ups were common. Now as everyone is aware of the consequences they are a rarity. Each race is an hour long and I rarely incur any damage in the entire race. If this approach were adopted in Sport mode I am sure the racing would improve drastically over time.

Yes, totally agree. With time, people understand what they have to do to have fun if there is punishment. But, when there is no REAL penalty like full damage, they don't care at all... We play GT, not Mario Kart.

 

[kseb08]

I can't believe you guys want damage.

Under this system, if someone rams you only they (usually) get a penalty. Your race is not over, and their race is hampered.

Under a damage system, your race is over. Both drivers races are over. At the very least, you will both have to limp it to pit road, and wait for damage to be fixed.... Why would you want that for the innocent driver?

Because people (bad drivers) have to learn that they must drive cleanly! If they don't want to learn, you have to punish them (with full damage). We can imagine a system where the rammer gets a lot of damage on the front of his car (engine/direction failure, etc.), and little damage (visual) on the back of the clean driver. If he continues to have heavy damages in more than 2 races, the game bans him temporarily (1 day, 2 days, 1 week, etc.) from sport mode and gives him a SR E rate. It's only an example. We can imagine a lot of other conditions.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Because people (bad drivers) have to learn that they must drive cleanly! If they don't want to learn, you have to punish them (with full damage). We can imagine a system where the rammer gets a lot of damage on the front of his car (engine/direction failure, etc.), and little damage (visual) on the back of the clean driver. If he continues to have heavy damages in more than 2 races, the game bans him temporarily (1 day, 2 days, 1 week, etc.) from sport mode and gives him a SR E rate. It's only an example. We can imagine a lot of other conditions.

I'm afraid you won't teach intentionally dirty drivers. All they will learn is how to brakecheck you perfectly .

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm afraid you won't teach intentionally dirty drivers. All they will learn is how to brakecheck you perfectly .

The areas of the track where it would be considered brake checking are pretty easy to identify. There's no reason, for example, why the game can't recognize that you're applying the brakes halfway down a straight with no other vehicle in front of you to avoid.

 

[JulesDennis]

If the lower levels incurred full damage all the time then the casual players would quickly leave the game, or at least the online portion. The 10% of players who take Sport mode seriously would be the only ones left. Some might argue that that may be a good thing, but PD's profit margin would certainly take a hit.

I like the damage idea, but the game needs to be accessible. What about a tiered system, where:

1. Lower level players have little or no damage penalty
2. The higher you go, the more realistic the damage (within the PD framework, as good/bad as it is)
3. The amount of damage you incur is factored into your tier level. Ideally, blame would be factored in as well, but we've seen that blame is difficult for the game to determine.

The basic idea is that in order to progress to higher rankings you have to learn how to drive well, but you aren't overly punished for just figuring out the game.

While I'm wishing, I'd like to win the lottery, too.

I personally dont care about PS's profit margin.
If PD is serious about creating an e-sport racing title they need to have the same model (damage/tire/fuel and penalty) for all levels.
Thats how people will learn things.
If PD just want an "FIA arcade racing title for everyone" that will give a "real driving licence" every year then keep it the way it is.

 

[Lord Grey]

I personally dont care about PS's profit margin.
If PD is serious about creating an e-sport racing title they need to have the same model (damage/tire/fuel and penalty) for all levels.
Thats how people will learn things.
If PD just want an "FIA arcade racing title for everyone" that will give a "real driving licence" every year then keep it the way it is.

I get where you're coming from, but I disagree about PD's profit margin. There needs to be one so that future Gran Turismo games are made.

PD (and really, any gaming company) is in an unenviable position of having to balance enjoyment for a wide range of customers. In PD's case, I suspect that the majority of the paying players ($$$$) favor more arcade-style driving while the more fervent/vocal players ($) favor realism. Ideally, the game should accommodate both. In GT's particular case, that probably means separating the groups but allowing players to migrate between them.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

The areas of the track where it would be considered brake checking are pretty easy to identify. There's no reason, for example, why the game can't recognize that you're applying the brakes halfway down a straight with no other vehicle in front of you to avoid.

You might be right about identifying a brakecheck. Still, though it probably is as easy as you say, it hasn't happened yet. If PD is as competent as to improve the penalty system in that direction, things will be a different story. But as for now ... no .

 

[JulesDennis]

I get where you're coming from, but I disagree about PD's profit margin. There needs to be one so that future Gran Turismo games are made.

PD (and really, any gaming company) is in an unenviable position of having to balance enjoyment for a wide range of customers. In PD's case, I suspect that the majority of the paying players ($$$$) favor more arcade-style driving while the more fervent/vocal players ($) favor realism. Ideally, the game should accommodate both. In GT's particular case, that probably means separating the groups but allowing players to migrate between them.

Sorry to say that but PD is not the only developer and GT series are not the only racing title (that claim "sim") in the market.
I mean the "more titles,the better" but if they cannot do it then its their fault and not mine.So I would never worry if PD (or any other developer) fail in their project(s) and dont have money for the next one.
I pay as a customer and if the title is not good then its time to move to another one.
As for what casuals or hardcore players want -imo- is not related to how the state of a product is.A company wants to make money.To do that they make choices and create a product.That product cannot please every single person/customer.So its up to the company to try and create the best (from their point of view) final product,that will give the best possible profit to them.
I am a huge supporter of Kunos and I delieve that AC is the best (in terms of realism/physics) title PS have ever seen.Now they are moving on and they are working on ACC -that may never come into consoles-.I will try it on PC but if that titles somehow do not bring profits and Kunos stop creating games then I'll be kinda sad ("what could have happend if things were different") and move to another title/product for my sim racing.The same I'll do with GT series or Pcars series or iRacing.

 

[KK78]

I think some need to accept that GT will never adopt the full-on sim damage model and halfway steps are not really viable either unless you want half the player base to quit in frustration (either because they are naff drivers or because they are sick of been penalised due to the poor driving of others) It's not i-racing, PCars or Assetto Corsa (and even these don't replicate hugely 'realistic' damage in my view) it's a mainstream game and as such it will ALWAYS be a less extreme simulation model.

I'm a pretty clean driver, S rank but am still prone to mistakes. Damage would have been a factor in my success and enjoyment in the last few days alone. On Monza yesterday I got rammed by someone overshooting the 2nd chicane, he got a penalty, I survived with just a wobble, the day before on Maggiore I got sideswiped at full speed by someone who clipped the grass in the S's Again he got a penalty, I simply lost a little speed. Both opponents apologised at the end of the race, no harm no foul, I had blue S ranking at the end of both.

Now turn on some damage and the story is either, I lose functionality of the car and probably finish much further down the board as a result, or turn on full damage and we are both out of the race on both occasions.

Probably the closest to real damage model I have experienced would be Dirt Rally, you could total a car quite easily and it served that game well in making the player learn the limits more (but also saw a lot leave it because it was too difficult for them) But that's rally, it's not a 15+ field of cars where the proximity for destruction is magnified (even from the most innocuous nudges, taps and rubbing)

I get that some have this ivory tower view of totally clean racing (which is also an unrealistic view in real motorsport ironically) but for a mainstream video game no developers are going to be crazy enough to adopt anything above a very simplistic damage model and since the last update the penalty system does work generally better it begs the question as to whether a more focused damage system is needed, let alone a good idea. If it's damage realism you are looking for, GT will never be the stage to find it.