You're wrong, its' possible to ckeck when a driver brakechecks intentionally.I'm afraid you won't teach intentionally dirty drivers. All they will learn is how to brakecheck you perfectly.
Instead of penalties, damage!
- Thread starter AlexDB9
- 102 comments
- 4,314 views
The reason PD doesn't implement it now, is that PD wants to do a game for everyone... So for dirty drivers too. If the game becomes too restrictive, only few serious gamers will stay. And that's not what PD wants, clearly.You might be right about identifying a brakecheck. Still, though it probably is as easy as you say, it hasn't happened yet. If PD is as competent as to improve the penalty system in that direction, things will be a different story. But as for now ... no.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
AFAIK no one has this type of penalty in place and I'm not sure why. It's almost a no brainer IMO. You just designate "acceleration zones" on each straight where there would never be any need to use your brakes under normal driving conditions. Outside of those zones the usual penalty system that is currently in effect would take over. Voila, no more brake checking on straights. Yes you could still get away with it in the braking zones if you really wanted to which they can do now but it would eliminate the obvious trolling that drives everyone bonkersYou might be right about identifying a brakecheck. Still, though it probably is as easy as you say, it hasn't happened yet. If PD is as competent as to improve the penalty system in that direction, things will be a different story. But as for now ... no
- 798
- Vancouver
- Nando_deBem
AFAIK no one has this type of penalty in place and I'm not sure why. It's almost a no brainer IMO. You just designate "acceleration zones" on each straight where there would never be any need to use your brakes under normal driving conditions. Outside of those zones the usual penalty system that is currently in effect would take over. Voila, no more brake checking on straights. Yes you could still get away with it in the braking zones if you really wanted to which they can do now but it would eliminate the obvious trolling that drives everyone bonkers
Penalty is not the only reason people brakecheck others. It messes up the driver’s focus and irritates them.
And, again... everytime someone says something is “really easy” makes me itchy. We should treat this as an accusation. If someone is saying they are not competent, this someone should provide evidence. This someone should provide details of infrastructure and applications, point where it’s wrong and why. Then, say how to improve, and why it’s better.
Im sorry, but I work as a developer, and it annoys the hell out of me. It’s literarily saying my job is easy and, statistically, I suck at it, because if PD sucks at it...
But hey, the only thing outsiders need to do if they think they’ll be better than me at this is spending more than 10 years studying and working with this. They’ll see how “easy” complex problems are.
Not trying to be rude, I swear. Just pointing out that those guys are professionals, they know what they’re doing, and - cheesy part - they have feelings.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Brake checking isn't easy to identify. You can brake for a yellow flag, for an accident, a bad track re-entry, to let a faster driver pass or back out in time when a car starts to over take. Even when there is no other car near, some crazy lag can make someone brake.
Latency is a nightmare to deal with as every client plays out its own version of events. You can't delay the input of the user to synchronize all clients in a fast paced racing game, and PD doesn't want to exclude people with high latency.
The system is much improved already. I would say currently 50% of contacts in my races are from lag and people momentarily losing control over their car. 40% from people driving too close, 10% dirty driving. (A/S)
With damage the 50% lag and out of control situations would result in end of race. The 40% from people driving too close would give me damage as well, possibly race ending when I get nudged off the track into the wall. Instead of the person behind getting a penalty, he'll race on with some paint of his bumper. The 10% dirty drivers, yep those might get tired of wrecking their car as well, or simply join the 40%, drive so close that bumps will be unavoidable and gently push the car in front off the track.
Latency is a nightmare to deal with as every client plays out its own version of events. You can't delay the input of the user to synchronize all clients in a fast paced racing game, and PD doesn't want to exclude people with high latency.
The system is much improved already. I would say currently 50% of contacts in my races are from lag and people momentarily losing control over their car. 40% from people driving too close, 10% dirty driving. (A/S)
With damage the 50% lag and out of control situations would result in end of race. The 40% from people driving too close would give me damage as well, possibly race ending when I get nudged off the track into the wall. Instead of the person behind getting a penalty, he'll race on with some paint of his bumper. The 10% dirty drivers, yep those might get tired of wrecking their car as well, or simply join the 40%, drive so close that bumps will be unavoidable and gently push the car in front off the track.
- 1,774
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
Hey guys, I was the one to mention brakechecking here first and we've discussed a bit on that matter, but honestly, this was just meant as an example.
Before I go on : I'm no expert by no means, I haven't got a clue about designing and programming a computer racing penalty system. However, my imagination tells me, it isn't an easy job - there's such a big variety of different situations that have to be taken into count ( not only being checked on a straight without other traffic ), so I guess it's a killer job to do it right. Also, this applies to any other race incident imo.
Well, thread is about replacing the penalty system by damage ... and the assumption that racing will be cleaner then.
I believe it won't change a thing. A dirty driver / troll basically is trying to find ways to gain unfair advantages under whatever circumstances. They've proved they were able to do so under the current penalty and rating systems, they'd be able to do so under damage I think ( hence why I mentioned the brakecheck thing ).
It's a huge annoyance, especially since GTS has this big focus on competition, but I for one had to deal with it since GT6 QM and I'm quite sure that we all have to learn to live with it to a certain extent.
I made a decal for my liveries a couple of weeks ago, it says : RATINGS DON'T MATTER TO ME !
Before I go on : I'm no expert by no means, I haven't got a clue about designing and programming a computer racing penalty system. However, my imagination tells me, it isn't an easy job - there's such a big variety of different situations that have to be taken into count ( not only being checked on a straight without other traffic ), so I guess it's a killer job to do it right. Also, this applies to any other race incident imo.
Well, thread is about replacing the penalty system by damage ... and the assumption that racing will be cleaner then.
I believe it won't change a thing. A dirty driver / troll basically is trying to find ways to gain unfair advantages under whatever circumstances. They've proved they were able to do so under the current penalty and rating systems, they'd be able to do so under damage I think ( hence why I mentioned the brakecheck thing ).
It's a huge annoyance, especially since GTS has this big focus on competition, but I for one had to deal with it since GT6 QM and I'm quite sure that we all have to learn to live with it to a certain extent.
I made a decal for my liveries a couple of weeks ago, it says : RATINGS DON'T MATTER TO ME !
- 49
- United Kingdom
But, even if the troll/dirty driver does brake check you, they would sustain damage, lose performance and ultimately lose places. This would result in losing DR and SR that will eventually result in cleaner racers being separated from the dirty.
- 1,774
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
Huh, ok, I'll try ...
I think your conclusion is half right, the other half is missing.
Imagine you're on track with a troll
. He brakechecks you 
. While he will suffer damage to rear bumper and rear suspension and thus lose a couple of seconds per lap ( unless he's in a Porsche or an old Beetle ) you will retire your car with engine damage.Win : troll
.
- 2,632
- United Kingdom
@ROCKET JOE is correct and I agree... damage hurts the clean driver more than the dirty driver.
- 1,245
- Greece
- 2,632
- United Kingdom
I'd love to see a Monday morning on here after damage was enabled over the weekend.
- 2,295
- Indiana
- pie4july
But under the current system, drivers already lose Dr and Sr for incidents. But you still find dirty drivers at all levels.
- 1,245
- Greece
- 2,632
- United Kingdom
I don't want to see it...
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
These are all non-issues IMO and all easy to identify in the game. The game knows when there is a yellow flag, knows about accidents, track re-entry etc. The lag issue is moot IMO. You already either get a penalty for lag contact or you don't, adding in the brake check parameter won't change that.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Yes it knows about yellow flags, how does it decide if you brake for the yellow flag or seize the opportunity to brake check the car behind.
An accident, track re-entry, lag etc all involve analyzing the situation over time analyzing the behavior and proximity of multiple cars. It's not easy to parse the history of multiple cars leading up to an event.
It's already improving anyway, as hitting people that were braking for penalties or were stalled from an accident last night on Brand's hatch did not give me a penalty. Oddly enough a clear hard brake check on the straight at Suzuka the night before gave me 5 sec penalty.
However with damage this whole penalty forgiveness for hitting cars braking right in front of you where they shouldn't would be moot. 100% of situations would cripple your car as well.
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
They would literally need to employ tens of thousands of people to do this.
I described how the system can be improved by referencing the driving line just like the time scrub mechanism does now. The game can totally know when a player is doing something in the wrong place at the wrong time.
- 28,471
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
It doesn't need to decide anything. The yellow flag drops and if one player is behind the other they will both be subject to the yellow flag no? Once the yellow flag drops the game can default to the standard contact algorithm.
So it's hard to parse out the history of multiple cars leading up to an event but the game is already doing it?
There is no such thing as a perfect but the examples you're throwing up are already a problem for the game. I don't see how introducing a brake check element into the algorithm is going to change those examples in any way.
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
The reason it isn't implemented is likely because PD is undermanned and never considered using the driving line to dole out blame.
Hundreds of thousands of people play a game daily will always find bugs, and sometimes solutions, faster than the devs, but we do not have the clear knowledge of why the solution is not implemented.
I know I sound like a broken record, and frankly I don't understand why others don't make this connection, but the driving line already does exactly what everyone is asking for.
When you have a penalty, and you slow down in a place where you should be going fast, the penalty scrubs off. That means the game knows that you have slowed in a place where you should be going fast. If you try this in a braking zone, the penalty scrub stops, which means the game knows it's a braking zone.
These have all been properties of the driving line since the inception of the driving line.
- 798
- Vancouver
- Nando_deBem
Brake checking rarely occur in the driving line when it happens to me. They usually go to the inside, then I want to maintain my draft and follow, then they brakecheck me. So now, by your solution, it’s a place where’s ok to brake, so I get penalized.
There’s a lot of complexity in interpreting the rules already. It’s hard for computers and humans. I don’t know if adding even more complexity in a strange and arbitrary way is a good way to start a sport project. Sports need to be easy to understand when you watch them. All this imaginary boxes “drawn” in conditions to activate when and how rules completely change will make it really confusing.
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- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Exactly. The incident where I got a 5 sec penalty for hitting a brake checker was when he swerved to the side while I was drafting on the straight. He didn't like me drafting him setting myself up for a pass, so he slammed on the brakes.
The problem is the players. They will find ways to manipulate the system as they did before with the track limits and gentle nudges to push you off the road. I'm sure there is already a brake check element in the algorithms, it's just not perfect yet and still gives out a penalty to the wrong person in some occasions.
So should I be penalized for anticipating the player in front of me getting in trouble by touching the grass for example and brake in advance not to run into him? I've been hit from behind while being careful not to run too close to a car having difficulties and got blamed for it, not by the penalty system, by the player in the chat afterwards lol.
Anyway brake checks aren't that big of a problem in my experience. I've had one legitimate brake check performed on me in the last week, versus tons of people running into my back end not looking further than 1 car ahead of them. If people can't look more than one car ahead to asses the situation correctly why assume the AI can
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- 1,424
- Kansas City/MO/US
- BallPtPenTheif
- BallPtPenTheif
Agreed, and ultimately we don't even know how their code is written. Sometimes there are so many overlapping dependencies that adding seemingly simple rule changes can have disastrous knock on effects even requiring code to be completely rewritten. The most publicly known issue like that is the complete lack of allowed name changes on PSN. To the whole world name changes seem easy and obvious to implement but depending on how their billing and database structure are built it could be a complete nightmare depending on how their data tables are setup.
I'd imagine that implementing another penalty system incongruent to their design scheme would complicate matters and that they would wait until their current variables are well defined before adding more to the issue.
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
The driving line system is not absolute. Back in previous iterations of GT, it would change colour based on a threshold value. Green meant go, red meant slow down, and blue meant you were in the proper window. If you crossed a certain speed threshold that went against the recommendation, the line would change from one colour to the other. So, in your example, the line would be red to indicate braking, but since the other driver braked too much, his line would have turned green to let him know he over did it. It would still penalize him for being at fault.
You can easily see that this system still functions because the penalties time scrub behaves in the exact same way. If you go too fast in a slow area, no penalty scrubbing. Granted, it's more difficult to see this behaviour since the speed to scrub penalties has been reduced a lot, but it's still the same behaviour.
- 798
- Vancouver
- Nando_deBem
- 724
- Germany
- GTRP_Krypto_
I dont think damage is an good idea. People are already crying when they get a time penalty by getting hit, I dont want to see the screaming when they get destroyed when beeing hit.
I think there 2 main problems in sportmode.
1. The detecting of the guilty one at an accident doesnt really work or at least not good enough (so they decided to punish all involved since patch 1.13)
2. In most of the cases people simply are not aware that they are doing something wrong. When asked, all involved in an accident will tell they were right and the other one wrong. That means, PD failed to educate people in this case. Maybe they should have made a racing scool mode like the driving scool mode. In that, you have go through different race situations and accomplish them according to the maner system.
Whatching once a 3 min video in the beginning was just silly if the aim was teaching the people succsesfull
I think there 2 main problems in sportmode.
1. The detecting of the guilty one at an accident doesnt really work or at least not good enough (so they decided to punish all involved since patch 1.13)
2. In most of the cases people simply are not aware that they are doing something wrong. When asked, all involved in an accident will tell they were right and the other one wrong. That means, PD failed to educate people in this case. Maybe they should have made a racing scool mode like the driving scool mode. In that, you have go through different race situations and accomplish them according to the maner system.
Whatching once a 3 min video in the beginning was just silly if the aim was teaching the people succsesfull
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
I don't think you understand what I am saying. The game is already doing what you're basically saying it can't do.
When I say "driving line" I am talking about what the feature is called. If you want to call it the penalty scrub system, then fine, call it what you want, but the game is already aware of each car's speed and whether that speed it appropriate for it's position on the track. If it didn't know this, penalty scrub wouldn't work. Two cars can be on two completely separate lines and the game can tell if they are validly scrubbing penalties or not.
- 798
- Vancouver
- Nando_deBem
You should use a name that isn’t used already. “The line” is in no way “areas and its acceptable speeds” in my understanding. And those areas and their acceptable speeds are arbitrary. People complain about them all the time. It means different things for different people. If you add a solution on top of that system, you’re probably gonna get all the complains that already are in place, but with the name of your solution in the sentence.
Like: Voodovaj’s solution sucks! I would easily fix it!!!
- 3,603
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
Or like: Nando thinks everything is impossible.
