Is camber fixed? Discuss it here.

Seeing how I never played a Gran Turismo title before I picked up GT6, could someone tell me how Camber worked in GT5? Was it beneficial? Did people apply amounts similar to real world applications? Was 0/0 the fastest setup in GT5?

This got me thinking. So I loaded up GT5 for a little test, expecting to be able to report that camber in GT5 worked as expected and mimicked real-life. The result surprised me. I chose an Amuse Carbon R because it had a decent amount of camber, 3.0F 2.0R, and was a tuner car so could be expected to have a reasonable set-up. The track was Tsukuba because it is short so I could do plenty of laps in a short time and it's got some long fast bends and a couple of hairpins.
I ran laps until I had a ghost that I could just about keep up with fairly consistently then removed the camber. First lap I almost exactly matched my time with camber and subsequently beat the time by a tenth or so.
Now I'm not the most consistent driver and the test was fairly unscientific, not blinded, only done once, but I was expecting the difference to be like night and day. Oh and subjectively it felt a bit slower mid-corner without camber but the exits were better.

Make of that what you will.

Edit - And the Amuse S2000 does indeed handle superbly with its 4 degrees of camber, but handles even better with 0 degrees.
 
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I think it depends heavily on the car, because I did some testing yesterday with a Lister Storm and a Ferrari F40. I tuned my Lister to have more spring in the front compared to the rear (can't remember exact values) and had 3 degrees of camber on the front, 1.5 in the rear. Damper compression/extension was 7 all round, sway bars were 5 in the front and 4 in the rear with 0.00 toe angle in the front, 0.60 in the rear. My fastest lap on Silverstone with the setup was a 1:58.015. I then changed to the camber to 2.0 degrees in the front, 1.0 in the rear. My lap time was 0.4 seconds slower, and I felt a small difference in cornering speed.

In the F40, my original setup had 1.5 degrees in the front a 3.0 in the rear. Of course, the car slid everywhere. So I went back to change the camber setup to 0.0 degrees in the front and 1.0 in the rear with slightly more toe-in in the rear. The result was a lot less sliding and far more control, something I never thought I'd get in the tail-happy car. I managed to do 1:49.7 at Grand Valley Speedway, and my original setup had no change of getting under 1:50.

So I learnt that a front heavy car needs quite a lot of camber in the front, while a rear heavy car needs little or none.
 
I had another go at Tsukuba seasonal.
Yep, I went in with an agenda, but I'm happy with the results.
I tried a fresh start and targetted what I would call a 'normal' setup.
Managed to find something and knocked 4/10ths off my best time and hit a 52.160.

Here's the setup if anyone wants to try it out.
G27 wheel (FFB 5/8) and manual gears.

Volkswagen W12 Nardo.
600pp Sports soft.
625BHP, 1173kgs.
No oil.
No rigidity.
1 inch up wheels.
Stage 3 weight reduction (plus windows or bonnet?)
Stage 1 engine upgrade (short of 600pp without it)
Power limiter at 88.4%

Suspension
85/85
9.0/10.5
4/6
7/8
6/4
1.8/0.3
-0.02/+0.05

Brakes 7/5

Diff 10/25/10

Gears
Final gear to 5.00
Max Speed to 240 (150)
3.22
2.33
1.81
1.44
1.17
0.98
Final gear back to 4.30

Aero
150/350

To me that's a reasonable setup without relying on any 'tricks'.
Rears can get a bit sketchy now and then powering out of slow corners, but okay if smooth.
Dropped the front camber to 0.3 (to match the rears) at end of session for a quick go.
The setup doesn't suit it IMO.
I'm not saying it's the fastest I can go, but it's the fastest I've been on any setup so far.
I'll have to put a serious effort into a 0/0 camber setup next to see if I can beat that time.
 
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You can control it with brake balance and LSD decel (and +ve rear toe if it's really extreme), but it is an error in the physics engine.

If you're trail braking in a real car and you release the brake, the weight shifts away from the front and you should get understeer as a result.

The weight takes time to transfer, so the front has more grip.
 
This got me thinking. So I loaded up GT5 for a little test, expecting to be able to report that camber in GT5 worked as expected and mimicked real-life. The result surprised me. I chose an Amuse Carbon R because it had a decent amount of camber, 3.0F 2.0R, and was a tuner car so could be expected to have a reasonable set-up. The track was Tsukuba because it is short so I could do plenty of laps in a short time and it's got some long fast bends and a couple of hairpins.
I ran laps until I had a ghost that I could just about keep up with fairly consistently then removed the camber. First lap I almost exactly matched my time with camber and subsequently beat the time by a tenth or so.
Now I'm not the most consistent driver and the test was fairly unscientific, not blinded, only done once, but I was expecting the difference to be like night and day. Oh and subjectively it felt a bit slower mid-corner without camber but the exits were better.

Make of that what you will.

Edit - And the Amuse S2000 does indeed handle superbly with its 4 degrees of camber, but handles even better with 0 degrees.

IIRC, general working range for camber in GT5 was 1.5-2.5 f, 0.5-1.5 r.

The weight takes time to transfer, so the front has more grip.

Do you understand what you're saying?

Weight transfer during trail braking...

1. Hard braking - weight on front
2. Reduce brake pressure as start to turn (trail braking) - less weight on front
3. Release brake pressure - even less weight on front

In GT6, if you release the brake pressure too suddenly at stage 3, the rear will slide (on a lot of cars).

In real life, as brake pressure is reduced/released, how would weight move further forward to unload the rear and create this oversteer?

Of course it doesn't and it can't... as it's not physically possible for that to happen.

What should happen is the rear should become unstable during braking - ABS can only stop the wheels locking, it cannot stop loss of grip laterally due to momentum. But ABS in GT6 stops any sort of grip loss whilst braking - in effect it's not anti lock braking, but a combination of ABS and stability control.

'Brake release oversteer' is a result of how PD have modeled ABS.
 
Weight transfer during trail braking...

1. Hard braking - weight on front
2. Reduce brake pressure as start to turn (trail braking) - less weight on front
3. Release brake pressure - even less weight on front

In GT6, if you release the brake pressure too suddenly at stage 3, the rear will slide (on a lot of cars).

In real life, as brake pressure is reduced/released, how would weight move further forward to unload the rear and create this oversteer?

Of course it doesn't and it can't... as it's not physically possible for that to happen.

Higher brake bias on rear, lower ride height rear, body roll pressing outer front corner down, more on outer rear than inner.

Your thoughts are having point, but forgetting several things along that. Weight transfer is the reason.

ABS in GT6 really messes up realism when it is used on wrong way, its too perfect, but so is whole simulation, that is always a problem on simulating something.
 
No ABS works much better then :P

In so far as it doesn't have a stabilising effect... but why did PD program the game so brakes lock at only c.50% brake pressure!

Unfortunately, neither ABS or no ABS is modeled anything like correctly.

Higher brake bias on rear, lower ride height rear, body roll pressing outer front corner down, more on outer rear than inner.

Your thoughts are having point, but forgetting several things along that. Weight transfer is the reason.

ABS in GT6 really messes up realism when it is used on wrong way, its too perfect, but so is whole simulation, that is always a problem on simulating something.

Brake release oversteer is present in stock cars on standard settings (including neurtal ride, neutral BB, high +ve rear toe and high LSD decel).

It might happen more readily with a TT type tune, but the fundamental effect underlies any settings, so remains a characteristic/feature/error within the physics engine.
 
In so far as it doesn't have a stabilising effect... but why did PD program the game so brakes lock at only c.50% brake pressure!

Unfortunately, neither ABS or no ABS is modeled anything like correctly.

That is input device fault - I meant the pedals, I read somewhere there are people who mod their pedals to make the pressure range more usable :) I am using stick ( DS2 ) and with brake using square - never have issue + no ABS since GT5 release day and GT5 no ABS was much more unforgiving, GT6 actually a whole lot easier to modulate as now most cars with 5/5 BB actually has front bias, unlike in GT5 where 5/5 literally means 50/50.
I tried no ABS with G27 once, for about half hour driving, and with lower BB that I used on stick, I can brake just fine :P I never use full travel when braking, a trait that I got from driving in arcade since teenager :lol:

Most pedal user will have problem with less usable pedal travel when braking, this is from GT5 days. The only way to get around is lower BB or mod the pedal ( make it stiffer, sponge ball trick or use custom pedal ) I have PSN friend who can drive with no ABS since GT5 ( G25 ) and can drive in alien pace, maybe he has sensitive foot like his hand :lol:

I don't think it's modelling error, no ABS simply means no interference by the game when braking. The way PD calibrate the input range between the hardware and physics engine ( game ) is also the problem. On most pedals, PD should have included extra options to adjust dead zone, input range and sensitivity, so you can tailor high BB value to work the whole input range of the pedal or half travel if desired - 100% pressure input = 100% brake force or reduce it to less value, so you can utilize full pedal travel when trail braking - balance it with strength and speed range.

If anyone watch my replays that I often uploaded with my replica, I almost never have 100% red bar, generally I tend to hover from 30% to 70% :P
 
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Brake release oversteer is present in stock cars on standard settings (including neurtal ride, neutral BB, high +ve rear toe and high LSD decel).

It might happen more readily with a TT type tune, but the fundamental effect underlies any settings, so remains a characteristic/feature/error within the physics engine.

Well.. brake release oversteer aka. "The brake drift", and it is commonly used in real life, this happens when brakes are released suddenly during trail braking.
It's hard to see this as a bug in game system.
 
That is input device fault - I meant the pedals, I read somewhere there are people who mod their pedals to make the pressure range more usable :) I am using stick ( DS2 ) and with brake using square - never have issue + no ABS since GT5 release day and GT5 no ABS was much more unforgiving, GT6 actually a whole lot easier to modulate as now most cars with 5/5 BB actually has front bias, unlike in GT5 where 5/5 literally means 50/50.
I tried no ABS with G27 once, for about half hour driving, and with lower BB that I used on stick, I can brake just fine :P I never use full travel when braking, a trait that I got from driving in arcade since teenager :lol:

Most pedal user will have problem with less usable pedal travel when braking, this is from GT5 days. The only way to get around is lower BB or mod the pedal ( make it stiffer, sponge ball trick or use custom pedal ) I have PSN friend who can drive with no ABS since GT5 ( G25 ) and can drive in alien pace, maybe he has sensitive foot like his hand :lol:

I don't think it's modelling error, no ABS simply means no interference by the game when braking. The way PD calibrate the input range between the hardware and physics engine ( game ) is also the problem. On most pedals, PD should have included extra options to adjust dead zone, input range and sensitivity, so you can tailor high BB value to work the whole input range of the pedal or half travel if desired - 100% pressure input = 100% brake force or reduce it to less value, so you can utilize full pedal travel when trail braking - balance it with strength and speed range.

If anyone watch my replays that I often uploaded with my replica, I almost never have 100% red bar, generally I tend to hover from 30% to 70% :P

I’m running a GTEye brake spring in my G27 (significantly harder brake and progressive rate)… but it’s still VERY difficult to find the threshold. I’m sure if I persevered I could get used to it, but I still don’t think no ABS is modelled correctly – brakes lock instantly at high speed far too easily compared to real life!

When you say you only use 70% max capacity... I know this works, but it's hardly realistic... I can absolutely hammer the brakes on my 996 from high speed with no triggering of the ABS.

All PD needed to do with ABS is disconnect its effect on lateral grip and how this is affected by weight transfer.
 
I’m running a GTEye brake spring in my G27 (significantly harder brake and progressive rate)… but it’s still VERY difficult to find the threshold. I’m sure if I persevered I could get used to it, but I still don’t think no ABS is modelled correctly – brakes lock instantly at high speed far too easily compared to real life!

When you say you only use 70% max capacity... I know this works, but it's hardly realistic... I can absolutely hammer the brakes on my 996 from high speed with no triggering of the ABS.

All PD needed to do with ABS is disconnect its effect on lateral grip and how this is affected by weight transfer.

Mmm, I think I often apply full brake from high speed ( above 200kmh ) with no ABS, and rarely I see lock up on most cars ( standard brakes ) The modulating part is when I brake in lower speed range, the slower the less I need to brake. On cars with sports tire and racing tire, I often can apply full brake even below 160kmh for a few moment. I usually adjust my BB so I can have good range of input when braking from highest speed on the track and still can modulate with ease on lower speed braking. Forgot to mention :lol: that my DS2 needs almost 3 times more pressure to register 100% input than DS3 :P

ABS in GT6 also adds understeer to any car/tune, which is why most of ABS drivers who tried my replicas always said to have understeer in some situation which I don't encounter when driving .

With no ABS in GT6, have you tried higher rear BB ? I generally use same value or higher rear by 1 or 2 point, as the stock 5/5 often have a lot front bias :)
 
Well.. brake release oversteer aka. "The brake drift", and it is commonly used in real life, this happens when brakes are released suddenly.
It's hard to see this as a bug in game system.

That's not my understanding of 'brake drift'... Can you show me an example of what you're describing?

Mmm, I think I often apply full brake from high speed ( above 200kmh ) with no ABS, and rarely I see lock up on most cars ( standard brakes ) The modulating part is when I brake in lower speed range, the slower the less I need to brake. On cars with sports tire and racing tire, I often can apply full brake even below 160kmh for a few moment. I usually adjust my BB so I can have good range of input when braking from highest speed on the track and still can modulate with ease on lower speed braking. Forgot to mention :lol: that my DS2 needs almost 3 times more pressure to register 100% input than DS3 :P

ABS in GT6 also adds understeer to any car/tune, which is why most of ABS drivers who tried my replicas always said to have understeer in some situation which I don't encounter when driving .

With no ABS in GT6, have you tried higher rear BB ? I generally use same value or higher rear by 1 or 2 point, as the stock 5/5 often have a lot front bias :)

I think ABS users think your cars have understeer because of how you set them up, not because of brake bias... the amount of rotation someone likes and is able to manage is very much a personal thing (based on control method and skill level), and BB only affects the turn in phase.

I almost always run higher rear brakes with ABS 1... allows deeper trail braking. Of course it is completely unrealistic to set a car up like this - if you did that in real life the ABS would trigger constantly as the rear wheels tried to lock up :lol:
 
That's not my understanding of 'brake drift'... Can you show me an example of what you're describing?



I think ABS users think your cars have understeer because of how you set them up, not because of brake bias... the amount of rotation someone likes and is able to manage is very much a personal thing (based on control method and skill level), and BB only affects the turn in phase.

I almost always run higher rear brakes with ABS 1... allows deeper trail braking. Of course it is completely unrealistic to set a car up like this - if you did that in real life the ABS would trigger constantly as the rear wheels tried to lock up :lol:

Brake drift is one of the technique to drift, I think it was covered by Keiichi Tsuchiya in Drift Bible :) and it does work even on FF car.

The tune does get affected when built by not using ABS, but I can tune both ways, tight or loose depending on the target goals ( replica, race tune or drift )
I was just saying that even with loose setup made with no ABS can be a bit understeery when ABS 1 used, usually when braking into the apex - usually on AWD and FF car. Damper and LSD tweaks are usually more than enough to make fit for ABS 1 ( looser ). One of the main differences with no ABS tuning is LSD value ( initial and decel ) can be higher than with ABS 1. Damper extension and compression also slightly differs, where ABS 1 tune can use extreme damper values with minimal side effect - the usual tuner extreme flip value like F 1Comp/10Ex and R 10Comp/1Ex :lol:
 
That's not my understanding of 'brake drift'... Can you show me an example of what you're describing?
Trail braking is not intended to use on car which has brake bias set to rear, more likely on 50/50 and to front bias. More you have brakes set to rear unintended brake drift can occur. When brakes are released suddenly car comes unstable, few reasons, sudden pressure release on suspension, sudden change to drivetrain kicking between joints of it between engine-clutch-transmission-axles-tires. In GT6 there is modeled only one of these bending points, clutch, and its mostly so stiff at there comes direct snap to engine brake and suspension change.

Hmm example.. from real life I'm using trail brake, brake drift, cadence brake, threshold brake and even coasting thru whole winter, doesn't matter am I driving 4WD, RWD, FWD car, it just comes from backbone.
It's hard to explain if you don't understand it, or hard for me to try translate things out from my head to English. Will try figure out some example to you later.

Edit: googled something what might help me to explain it to you:
Brake drift

A drift-inducing technique called "the brake drift" is used in racing, involving a series of light trail-braking pulses (usually 2 or 3), followed by a momentary full-force braking and sharp releasing of the brakes. Mastering continuous trail braking as used under road conditions is a prerequisite for learning brake drifting. This is one of the most used drifting techniques in rally racing because - if done properly - allows the driver to enter and exit the corner with full throttle.


Edit2, more from same place:
Trail braking

Trail braking is a mostly motorcycle riding and driving technique where the brakes are used beyond the entrance to a turn and are gradually released up to the point of apex. But often is used in car racing too (Heel and toe again!).Trailing off the braking pressure either while straight line braking or, after turn in has begun, allows for a less abrupt and more accurate final corner entry speed adjustment.

Some corner entries, such as decreasing radius turns, are more adapted to the leaned over trail braking technique. In turns where a quicker steering action is more applicable, trailing the brake while turning in is unnecessary.

In applying this technique, motorcycle riders approach turns applying both front and rear brakes to reduce speed. As they enter the turn, they slowly ease off the brakes, gradually decreasing or "trailing" off the brakes as motorcycle lean increases. In this moment, very often you can see rear tire start to slide out of corner but without any tire lock. This technique is used for several reasons. First, this gives more traction because the front tire is forced into the pavement under the weight transfer of the vehicle. Second, as the brakes are applied and the weight shifts forward the forks are compressed. The compression of the forks changes the motorcycles steering geometry, decreasing stability in a way that makes the motorcycle want to lean and change direction. Thus, trail braking can be used as method to help the motorcycle change direction.

Additionally, decreasing speed decreases the motorcycles cornering radius, while, conversely, accelerating while turning increases the motorcycles cornering radius. Traditionally, trail braking is done exclusively with the front brake even though trailing the rear brake will effectively slow the motorcycle, also decreasing the turning radius.
It should be noted that the rider's ability to correctly choose his turn in, apex and exit points reduces or eliminates the necessity of prolonged trailing of the brakes into turns.

Also to be noted, the longer the rider trails the brake into any given corner the later will be his application of the throttle. The throttle is responsible for the machine's ultimate stability and traction. It is desirable to begin throttle application as soon as possible once an acceptable racing line is established.

Finally, trailing off the brakes while entering blind or tight corners allows the rider to slow if something unexpected blocks the rider's path. Because the motorcycle is already on the brakes and the front tire is getting additional traction from higher load and grip, the rider can slow even more with very little risk, depending on surface conditions. However, applying the brakes after the motorcycle is already leaned over can be exceedingly risky depending on surface conditions and lean angle. There is already roughly 70% of the bike's weight forward from being off the gas so applying braking pressure significantly increases that load on the smaller front tire.

This technique is commonly used when racing, but can enhance control and add more evasive options for street riders, making it very worthwhile to learn or at least understand.
Worth noting also is that most current (2000 through 2008) racing crashes happen while trailing the brakes into turns, amongst world class Moto GP riders.

In 4-wheel vehicles trail braking pertains to using the brakes past the corner entrance (as opposed to the normally taught practice of releasing the brakes before starting the turn). This practice is used for creating weight transfer towards the front tires, thus increasing their traction and reducing understeer. It works best in light vehicles that have their brake bias to the front. But often is used with heel and toe technique.
In order to be properly performed, the driver must have excellent sense of the car behavior and be able to keep the braking effort within very tight limits. Excessive braking effort may result in the vehicle heavily understeering, or - if the brake bias is set to nearly neutral - in the rear wheels locking, effectively causing the vehicle to spin as in a handbrake turn.
Once a driver has mastered trail braking, it can help enter the corners at higher speeds, or avoid an accident if the driver has entered a corner at a speed exceeding the car or driver capabilities.

Opponents of trail braking claim that because of the steep learning curve trail braking is, or should be an exclusively race track or racing technique. However, proponents of trail braking believe that knowing and understanding how to slow while entering a corner gives the driver a greater safety margin, particularly in blind, decreasing radius or downhill corners.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/advanced_braking.html

Last edit: braking basics.. :) (third phase)
There are three phases in competitive braking. First, braking begins with a rapid, but not instant, application of as much braking force as possible. How rapid the brakes can be applied will depend on the suspension in the car and the track surface. Thestiffer the springs and shocks, the more rapidly maximum braking can be applied. Soft springs will have significant forward roll which will require a little longer and smoother ramp-up of braking to keep the car stable.

Second, once the car settles onto the front tires, you'll be trying to minimize the length of the braking zone, so it will require taking the tires to the edge of locking up.

You'll need to be very aware of the feedback vibrations in your foot given to you from the pedal and in your hands from the steering wheel to feel that small difference. The racing shoes are highly recommended. You just won't feel much from the pedals in Nike Air. The car will travel some distance using a fairly constant brake pedal pressure.

The third phase is towards the end of the braking zone when the vehicle has been slowed to near its final speed. During this phase you can change to the lover gear to adjust for power output necessary to exit the turn. Gradually release pressure off the pedal making the transition from full to zero braking force as smooth as possible. During braking, the front tires are under heavy load which increases the available traction. But be careful, this will drastically reduce the available traction on the rear tires. A sudden release of the brakes will abruptly reduce the load and reduce the traction potential of the front tires which at this point is needed for turning into the corner.

The turn-in is one of the points where the car will be the most sensitive to sudden weight transfertransitions as though it were being driven on ice. Indecisive braking resulting in a last second extra tap, or a sudden release of the brake pedal, and that will unsettle the car's handling and force the driver to slow down to gain control and hopefully avoid a spin or worst.

As the braking zone completes, and you ease off the brake pedal, you will have to apply some throttle to reach a steady state of neither acceleration nor deceleration. Depending on the shape of the turn, the steady throttle zone will vary, but with a typical late-apex corner, it will be from the turn-in to just before the apex. In this phase you can use heel and toe technique to improve stability.
 
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Weight transfer during trail braking...

1. Hard braking - weight on front
2. Reduce brake pressure as start to turn (trail braking) - less weight on front
3. Release brake pressure - even less weight on front

True, but the weight transfer will lag the application/release of the brakes, so with a brake release, until the weight transfers, the front will have increased grip relative to the rear.
 
Sounds like what Drift Bible said and shown, brake then drift :D
And the reason they do that is what? To load up the front tires with grip, to give more turn bite, to shake the rear end loose. It's not the releasing of the brakes that causes the oversteer, it's the quick application of grip to the front tires through a quick stab at the brakes. This works very well in the PC sims I've tried, with or without ABS, but doesn't work in GT with ABS. It can work in GT without ABS but in GT lockup is almost like an on/off switch. It's much more manageable in AC for example, where you can feel and hear lockup approaching and it's much easier to find the braking threshold.

And it's also not what I am talking about when I mention "brake release oversteer" which is simply releasing the brakes while cornering to instantly induce oversteer. Essentially the opposite of this:

Brake drift
A drift-inducing technique called "the brake drift" is used in racing, involving a series of light trail-braking pulses (usually 2 or 3), followed by a momentary full-force braking and sharp releasing of the brakes. Mastering continuous trail braking as used under road conditions is a prerequisite for learning brake drifting. This is one of the most used drifting techniques in rally racing because - if done properly - allows the driver to enter and exit the corner with full throttle.

Being hard on the brakes while cornering at the grip limit of the tires, and then letting go of the brake should not induce oversteer. The action of braking while cornering should in some circumstances induce both understeer or oversteer, depending on how fast you are going and what the grip limits of the tires are. But simply releasing the brakes should not induce oversteer, yet it does in GT.
 
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Being hard on the brakes while cornering at the grip limit of the tires, and then letting go of the brake should not induce oversteer. I don't know of any scientific explaination for that phenomenon. It's not tuning because it works with all kinds of cars, stock or tuned, to varying degrees depending on tires, weight distribution etc.

Too clinic ABS, tires roll same speed as body goes during braking, then you release brake, tires are rolling at optimal speed for optimal grip and you launch engine brake to there, grabs and looses.
ABS on GT6 just works too perfect, during brake you have glue on tires coz mathematically optimal rolling speed(both sides, front and rear, left and right, after release LSD changes things asap), I'll bet at this can bee proven with GT6 own data diagnosis.

And all this is related to camber and how and why it works, with ABS(in GT6) camber plays small role, coz traction breaks so easily after braking and constant traction needed for camber is gone, without ABS camber benefits are more clearer.
 
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IIRC, general working range for camber in GT5 was 1.5-2.5 f, 0.5-1.5 r.



Do you understand what you're saying?

Weight transfer during trail braking...

1. Hard braking - weight on front
2. Reduce brake pressure as start to turn (trail braking) - less weight on front
3. Release brake pressure - even less weight on front

In GT6, if you release the brake pressure too suddenly at stage 3, the rear will slide (on a lot of cars).

In real life, as brake pressure is reduced/released, how would weight move further forward to unload the rear and create this oversteer?

Of course it doesn't and it can't... as it's not physically possible for that to happen.

What should happen is the rear should become unstable during braking - ABS can only stop the wheels locking, it cannot stop loss of grip laterally due to momentum. But ABS in GT6 stops any sort of grip loss whilst braking - in effect it's not anti lock braking, but a combination of ABS and stability control.

'Brake release oversteer' is a result of how PD have modeled ABS.

I have experienced a much lighter tail than front during braking in high speeds on wet in GT6 even when ABS was on. Especially in MRs but in FRs too. Tail will brake lose first there. So, this part of the physics engine work as should be imo.
 
Too clinic ABS, tires roll same speed as body goes during braking, then you release brake, tires are rolling at optimal speed for optimal grip and you launch engine brake to there, grabs and looses.
ABS on GT6 just works too perfect, during brake you have glue on tires coz mathematically optimal rolling speed(both sides, front and rear, left and right, after release LSD changes things asap), I'll bet at this can bee proven with GT6 own data diagnosis.
No offense, but I think you are simply posting things just to be disagreeable. For example you made a long post above, and it contains this:
The third phase is towards the end of the braking zone when the vehicle has been slowed to near its final speed. During this phase you can change to the lover gear to adjust for power output necessary to exit the turn. Gradually release pressure off the pedal making the transition from full to zero braking force as smooth as possible.
During braking, the front tires are under heavy load which increases the available traction. But be careful, this will drastically reduce the available traction on the rear tires. A sudden release of the brakes will abruptly reduce the load and reduce the traction potential of the front tires which at this point is needed for turning into the corner.
Which is exactly, to the letter, what I've been talking about. Apply the brakes during cornering will move the car towards oversteer, letting go of the brakes moves you towards understeer. When you let go of the brakes suddenly in GT you get oversteer, the opposite of what you quoted above. In real life, as you quoted, you release the brakes suddenty and you reduce the traction potential of the front tires which are needed for turning - moving towards understeer, not oversteer.
 
No offense, but I think you are simply posting things just to be disagreeable. For example you made a long post above, and it contains this:
No offence at all, I know what I posted, also I knew at you will dig this up from there, please read few earlier posts with time, and think why it happens, and what differences will happen to car weight transfer force vectors when you have optimal brake grip on both ends and you brake more on rear.
Btw nobody haven't prove is game counting engine brake during braking, how it messes brake bias, is current bias for actual driving bias or technical bias on garage?
 
I'm curious how much of the quirks in game are due to Yokohama's tire model.

I know that switching from Michelin, Pirelli, and Bridgestone tires (on my bike) takes a fe laps to get used to. Each tire is VERY different to ride on. Turn it, mid corner, and exit behaviour are quite different.

I have heard (but cannot attest) that the same applies to car tires. Could some of the quirks be consistent with Yokohama tire behaviour? Does anyone have track experience with Yokohama?
 
Trail braking is not intended to use on car which has brake bias set to rear, more likely on 50/50 and to front bias. More you have brakes set to rear unintended brake drift can occur. When brakes are released suddenly car comes unstable, few reasons, sudden pressure release on suspension, sudden change to drivetrain kicking between joints of it between engine-clutch-transmission-axles-tires. In GT6 there is modeled only one of these bending points, clutch, and its mostly so stiff at there comes direct snap to engine brake and suspension change.

Hmm example.. from real life I'm using trail brake, brake drift, cadence brake, threshold brake and even coasting thru whole winter, doesn't matter am I driving 4WD, RWD, FWD car, it just comes from backbone.
It's hard to explain if you don't understand it, or hard for me to try translate things out from my head to English. Will try figure out some example to you later.

Edit: googled something what might help me to explain it to you:
Brake drift

A drift-inducing technique called "the brake drift" is used in racing, involving a series of light trail-braking pulses (usually 2 or 3), followed by a momentary full-force braking and sharp releasing of the brakes. Mastering continuous trail braking as used under road conditions is a prerequisite for learning brake drifting. This is one of the most used drifting techniques in rally racing because - if done properly - allows the driver to enter and exit the corner with full throttle.

Yes, in real life you wouldn't have a BB more rear biased as the car would become massively unstable, but the game allows it, and the physics model means you benefit from it. But it remains the case that 'brake release oversteer' still happens on some cars that have not been modified in any way!

I'm not sure if you really understand what 'Brake Drifting' is (maybe from @Johnnypenso replies?)... brake drift uses the application of the brake to transfer weight to the front tyres, unload the rear and thus create rotation.

To make the most of it, best to learn left foot braking as you can then apply throttle and brake seamlessly.

Releasing the brake whilst turning does not cause oversteer in real life under normal conditions/circumstances!

I'm curious how much of the quirks in game are due to Yokohama's tire model.

I know that switching from Michelin, Pirelli, and Bridgestone tires (on my bike) takes a fe laps to get used to. Each tire is VERY different to ride on. Turn it, mid corner, and exit behaviour are quite different.

I have heard (but cannot attest) that the same applies to car tires. Could some of the quirks be consistent with Yokohama tire behaviour? Does anyone have track experience with Yokohama?

I've never driven on Yoko's as far as I can remember (I run Michelin MPS or Continental SC).

However, I don't think it's anything to do with the tyres - 'brake release oversteer' was there in GT5 just the same. The difference was GT5 physics engine was much more understeer biased than GT6, so you noticed it less.
 
However, I don't think it's anything to do with the tyres - 'brake release oversteer' was there in GT5 just the same. The difference was GT5 physics engine was much more understeer biased than GT6, so you noticed it less.
Somewhere in all of this info, the lack of effective camber, brake release oversteer, ABS = stability control etc. there must be a Unified Theory of GT Physics that has it all make sense. :lol:
 
Somewhere in all of this info, the lack of effective camber, brake release oversteer, ABS = stability control etc. there must be a Unified Theory of GT Physics that has it all make sense. :lol:

:lol:

I reckon I understand some of it, but the simple stuff like reversed ride height just makes me :odd:

The challenge for PD is there are so many variables (and how they all interact) to model. When I think about it properly (as opposed to when I'm frustrated!), I am much more sympathetic... they only need to get one thing slightly wrong in their model/assumptions and likely the logic of it all falls apart.

But I'd much rather they invested time in the physics engine than stuff like modelling interiors or B spec or track creators or user defined liveries... IMO these are distractions if the physics are out.
 
I’d like to propose a theory.
Camber in GT6 is not broken. It works the same as it it did in GT5. That is to say it has a very subtle, almost to the point of being immeasurable in terms of lap times, effect on a car’s handling up to a certain limit and above that limit it wrecks the handling. The difference between GT5 and GT6 is simply the scaling. In GT5 the limit was about 5 degrees and in GT6 it is about 1.
I suspect that nobody complained about it in GT5 because the numbers were similar to real-life values. Can any of our expert tuners say that in GT5 camber values had any significant effect on lap times, as in comparable to real life? Because in my, admittedly very limited, testing in GT5 removing the camber had virtually no effect.
The suspension models of the two titles seem to be similar in terms of their effects and anomalies so why should it just be camber that is broken?
That it my theory. Feel free to shoot it down.
 
:lol:

I reckon I understand some of it, but the simple stuff like reversed ride height just makes me :odd:

The challenge for PD is there are so many variables (and how they all interact) to model. When I think about it properly (as opposed to when I'm frustrated!), I am much more sympathetic... they only need to get one thing slightly wrong in their model/assumptions and likely the logic of it all falls apart.

But I'd much rather they invested time in the physics engine than stuff like modelling interiors or B spec or track creators or user defined liveries... IMO these are distractions if the physics are out.


That's the first smart thing you have said in this whole discussion. :mischievous: :lol:

Seriously though, I think everyone here is just beating there heads against the wall with this whole camber thing. You have those that believe its broken, and you have those that believe otherwise. It doesn't look like any side is willing to budge in their beliefs no matter how much the discussion moves on. Although things are learned here, I really think this discussion is futile as far as trying to convince one side to believe the other side. At the end of the day, does it all really matter? Each side is going to tune how they see fit, with or without camber, and as long as it achieves their primary goal, that's all that matters. I say lets just move on and hope for the best in GT7. There is more than enough information here in this thread, and the other one where actual testing is going on, for people to form their opinion one way or the other. I really think we are just starting to beat a dead horse here. Unless we have some solid proof one way or the other, this could go on forever and not really accomplish anything. Just my thoughts for the day on the issue. :cheers:
 
Trying to find youtube videos ( onboard cam with pedal work view ) with japanese dudes inducing oversteer with braking application ( from pressing to release ) accompanied by small drifts to exit :P I saw lots of them back in the day ( 90's ), Nakaya and Tsuchiya loves to do it, and the flashy entry to exit of Evo V & VI by Nakaya, one of them : entry oversteer by braking on a stock Evo VI RS with AYC during a race at tsukuba ( the esses and last hairpin ) that almost cause a wreck with RX7 RS ( Gan san ) and Evo VI (Takuya ) - 1999 BM. Someone have seen on youtube - Tsuchiya test drive at Shizuoka suburb driving the R34 GTR Vspec with winding road drift by braking on entry oversteer ? As he release the brake pedal, he counter steered and drift out of the corner like a boss :lol: I have the video, but there's no way to upload it :(
 

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