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Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 6' started by Johnnypenso, Dec 18, 2014.
So how does camber work in a General way in GT6?
Reduces peak grip mostly
Racing in real life, I've changed camber settings dozens of times.. I'm ashamed to say it, but truth be told, I cannot understand much of a difference between changes :\ I've even started to doubt if it actually works as I once thought it did (making lap times faster just because camber increases cornering grip)! I'm even thinking of taking it back to 0 (something I have never tried) and say how it will affect the overall car's behaviour..
I race in the Cyprus Time Attack Championship bytheway (as a hobby) and even though I would say I'm not a bad driver (I'm last year's champion and still have track's record for the mx5s) I cannot for the life of me understand how to tune a car.. To make matters worse, I got a sponsorship for a fully adjustable BC racing suspension and I have absolutely no idea what does what.. :\
So, is it possible that camber in GT6 is working exactly as it should but people are asking too much of it?
P.S I see people comparing gt6 to AC, Pcars, Iracing - I don't know if it's me, but the only games I can drive and feel I'm in control is LFS and GT6 (if it concerns road cars) (and pcars but it depends on the car)! AC and especially iracing make me feel like I've never driven a car in my whole life ..
Not that gt6 is perfect - especially that backlash thing after oversteer is quite annoying *not totally unrealistic but prob not to such a degree- but at least I feel like I'm in control of what I'm doing!
.. Should you need any real life tests I'm willing to help
Test your Mazda with zero camber front and rear and then put 3.5 degrees camber only in front and test again.
When I do this test in LFS with XR GT (with stock set up)I feel a clear big difference,the front end becomes more responsive,but this is not the case in GT6.
My next race is on the 6th so no change before that! I'm currently -2.5 degrees front (which means almost 3 degrees) and -2 degrees rear! Caster is at max i believe!
In LFS does more camber equate to better lap times?
Blackwood GP Track
No AIDS,no ABS(PRO)
Camber front 0.0 rear 0.0 (this is the stock camber setting)
Camber front 3.5 rear 0.0
So will camber ever be fixed and is there any other suspension tuning parameter that is broken?
So will camber ever be fixed and is there any other overall tuning parameter thats broken?
Ride height is a bit counter intuitive but workable
My take on camber (based entirely on feel, not any hard data) is bigger numbers make the car "feel" like they have more grip (smoothens out the steering), but it doesn't really increase your cornering speed by a large amount. The downside is you lose braking and acceleration grip in a straight line. Zero camber you don't lose any corner speed AND you get superior braking/acceleration performance, that's why you get faster laptimes.
The exception is very twitchy cars like the Diablo GT2 and R8 LMS Ultra, where adding front camber makes it understeer and cancels out the oversteer. It doesn't actually add any grip, but it does make the car easier and more consistent to drive.
Probably not. If PD haven't fixed it by now it doesn't give me any confidence they know what's wrong. Or maybe Kaz thinks the camber is correct already
As far as I know only ride height is broken besides camber (front and rear is switched). To be honest PD really needs to overhaul their tuning engine. IIRC camber and ride height have always been problematic ever since GT2 (amazingly GT1 even though it's the first game it was mostly accurate ).
So whats the problem with ride height?
I would say the entire suspension physics are wrong. In a big way too. Ride height affects the car in the opposite way to real life, spring rates and arbs work pretty much as you'd expect, but damper settings do almost nothing as far as I could tell, and of course everyone knows the camber does nothing except reduce grip.
If camber worked like that, it wouldn't be a thing at all. There's a reason every single race team in every single professional series uses negative camber on their cars. You just have to watch some super slow-mo of race cars when cornering to see how it's beneficial.
The reason it does nothing in GT6, I suspect, is more to do with the tyre model being so basic. It seems the tyre pressure isn't modelled at all, meaning there's no deformation of the carcass. I also suspect the geometry is more or less fixed when racing, and not changing dynamically as it should. That would explain why negative camber is just reducing grip. If the bodyroll in corners didn't affect the camber of the wheels, and they were always static at the angle you set them, you would always be driving on the inside edge of the tyre. I could be wrong, for sure, but after having played the game as much as I did, I always got the feeling the geometry wasn't dynamic, and the tyre model is total crap.
The effects of rake (horizontal angle of car along wheelbase) appears to be backwards according to most. Its much more simple than that though, basically the ride hight acts as a grip multiplier up until a point, if you want more front end grip then increase the ride height a bit, if you want more rear end grip then lift the rear. This is somewhat accurate but ignores the inherent instability that would be generated by a tall ride height, because its all but impossible to grip roll a car in the GT universe you can exploit this to your hearts desire
This is what negative camber is for:
...and it doesn't hurt in this scenario either:
0.26 secs is an important difference for a 1m40s laptime to show a change in car behaviour when adding 3.5 degrees of camber only to one axle? I think not at all...
There are many guys here who saw the same difference or more in laptimes when adding 1-1.5 degree of camber and yet some others deny to aknowledge that it is enough. For a change of 3.5 degrees a 0.2% in laptime is statistically negligible.
I did a lot of tests in GT6,you can see them here in this thread and I did not managed to gain time adding camber.
0,2% isn't a gain either. That's what I say. So, if GT6 camber is broken, so is for LFS too. IMHO, GT6 isn't truly great in how the car responds to changes in suspension settings, but it works to help change balance, reduce under-oversteer, make turn-in easier, lower tire wear. That is what camber does in RL after all, doesn't it?
Enjoy the game
The Motec data available in this thread seem to indicate that camber slightly increases cornering speeds but laptimes are slightly slower. This could mean it negatively affects acceleration and braking, maybe rolling resistance (terminal speeds on straights are lower) or something else we don't know about. Overall laptimes were usually slower with camber but sometimes they were close to equal.
I've held this contention all along. There are gains to be had, but there are too many other variables that you can't make a change without compensating for it other areas.
As you say, acceleration and braking are effected (especially loss of grip), which means turning down the brake balance and messing with the gears.
Sadly, I think this will never be settled be settled because so many people are looking for seconds a lap in gains with camber alone, which I don't believe is reasonable.
I think this camber problem is also on Gran Turismo 4.
I did a test were mt fully NISMO upgraded Nissan 350Z Roadster with 0.0 rear camber:
With -2.5 at front it felt quite sliperry and understeary.
With 0.0 at front it felt much better.
As this is the case in GT6 I assumed this also happened to the rear.
Have I said anything wrong?
Please let me know if you agree with me or not.
All GT games until GT6 had the camber working reverse axles. In reality and in GT6 when you add negative camber on front axle you have better grip in front (less understeer or even a bit oversteer) and the same for the rear camber and axle. Previous GT games do the opposite.
I find that in conjunction with a good spring rate set-up camber works as it should. Without that suspension tuning, camber doesn't work properly.
There must be an echo in here because I'd swear I've heard this all before....
That implies that if people only knew how to tune, camber works just fine. We should not give a free pass to statements like this. How? Not just directed at this post, but also at the "camber works fine with the proper toe" comments in this thread. How? What toe setting go with which camber settings. If this idea were true, then there must be a scale of coorelation between settings. Zero camber and xx toe, 0.5 camber and xx toe, etc. What is the relationship between these settings and how would you guide a new tuner to improving their tuning using the theory? If simple advice cannot be given, in numbers go up or numbers go down format, the theory cannot be proven. In my opinion, this is what is necessary to prove a theory. Not, well it works if you know what you are doing.
We are missing ability to bend rubber well on GT6..
Below there is good example of setup obeying manufacturer geo delta, and alternative geo setup "stolen" from similar car (really close to same dimensions and delta) of same manufacturer (340R), huge difference on values, but both have their own natures, sharp and forgive shortly. Both capable quick lap times, other is just easier, and another punish you if not knowing what to do. Really like to see if someone drivers 0-camber quicker on that setup
Back to topic, camber throw plus rubber bend plus pulling what that bending rubber does are things what aren't exactly in GT6, camber throw is there, but counted from camber value and nearly static slipping values from compound, nearly because there is weight and temperature counted on this, but missing a lot. Mostly problems are here because too clinical environment, perfect values, nothing is so clean on real life, there is always some differences here and there, tolerances on axles, joints etc. Axle/joint tolerance can make really idiotic real life setup work on real life, but when it is tried in GT6 clinical environment it just fails. <-long story, needs some cleaning.. Will try to sort out cleaner answer later, now sleep.
Spoiler: tune for test with stock rims using compounds CS to SS
Lotus Elise S1 Racecar '96 - "Replica"
Tuned for version 1.2x
Suspension (Full Custom)
Ride Height (mm): 80 / 90
Spring Rate (kgf/mm): 8.18 / 9.67
Dampers (Compression): 8 / 7
Dampers (Extension): 6 / 6
Anti-Roll Bars: 5 / 5
Camber Angle (-): 0.3 / 2.0. (1.8/2.7)
Toe Angle: -0.01 / +0.11. (-0.2/+0.24)
Alternative geo setup inside brackets from same sized wheel base, same sized wheels.
Brake Balance Controller
Brake Balance: 5 / 5
Initial Torque: 15
Acceleration Sensitivity: 27
Braking Sensitivity: 16
Power for 238BHP/285Nm/544pp
Limiter - 100%
Engine Tuning - Stage 3
Gearbox (Full Custom)
Max Speed 300 km/h
Body weight 645kg
Weight Reduction - Stage 0
Ballast weight: 0kg
Ballast position: 0
Btw. This works fine on GT6:
Camber is not broken. Tyre grip is broken. Think about it.
Yeah, it's well known that GT has tyres that are far too grippy, and deformation isn't simulated at all.
I've seen that awesome video with the tire deformation in rFactor 2, but I'm wondering how many other sims actually have real calculated tire deformation?
EDIT: Oh, I forgot to say that I totally agree that tires are way too grippy in GT6. 90%+ of cars that come with SH tires should have CM or CS tires installed by default. For people who think I'm off my rocker, you can measure the performance in MoTeC i2 PRO.
Pretty much all of them except the GT series. Expect GT7 to have it too.